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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe

Canada
956 Posts

Posted - 13 Oct 2006 :  19:59:11  Show Profile  Visit Kalin Agrivar's Homepage Send Kalin Agrivar a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I noticed soemthing last night

** minor spoiler **

Arrival of the gold and silver elves : -24,500
The Sundering : -24,000
Founding of Aryvandaar (the first gold/silver elf kingdom): -23,900 DR
Founding of Ilythiir (the dark elf/future drow kingdom): -23,200

now I don't have my Evermeet novel with me but didn't Moonflower and his son encounter the dark elf kingdom of Ilythiir long before the defeat of the Mountain Master and the especially before the Sundering?

Wouldn't that make the founding of Ilythiir centuries before the Sunderings, maybe even before the first Flowering and into the Time of Dragons?

Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar

- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand

Marc
Senior Scribe

657 Posts

Posted - 13 Oct 2006 :  21:34:35  Show Profile Send Marc a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ilythiir was founded after the Sundering, before that we only know of Attornash (city that was destroyed by the effect), same thing for Aryvandaar, before that was Sharlarion. I think ...

.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 13 Oct 2006 :  23:17:27  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The date given for the Sundering is incorrect. Lost Empires of Faerun gives the date of the Sundering as -17600 DR. And it also mentions Ilythiiri predating the Sundering.
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1098 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2006 :  02:56:18  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The date for the Sundering in LEoF is not exactly correct. Hopefully the contradictory histories will be rectified in the upcoming print Grand History.

Basically, it boils down to this...

The dark elf city of Atorrnash presented in the novel Evermeet is the capital of the first dynasty of Ilythiir, founded c.-27,000 DR. That dynasty was destroyed when Atorrnash and much of Ilythiir was dropped into the Shining Sea during the Sundering c.-24,000 DR. The elven community of Sharlarion survived nearly intact and moved on to found Aryvandaar a century later. The Ilythiir described in LEoF is the second dynasty of Ilythiir which arose around -23,200 DR. An echo of the Sundering occurred on -17,600 DR when Corellon Larethian raised the island of Evermeet from the Trackless Sea, though it wasn't until -9,800 DR that elves began to settle Evermeet en mass.

Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

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Kentinal
Great Reader

4684 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2006 :  03:24:17  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm, this makes it sound like thae dark elves had a long standing greivence against other elves.

Droping a Capital into a sea implies killing at least a few leaders.

I have noticed that estimated times of events have been different in different source books.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Marc
Senior Scribe

657 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2006 :  11:34:24  Show Profile Send Marc a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just want to add, remember Ka'narlist of Atorrnash, he might still be around trapped in a pearl at the bottom of the sea, waiting for a moment to trigger his contingency ...

.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6638 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2006 :  12:22:16  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My take on this is slightly different to that of Brian, and that is only because I hate invalidating clearly printed dates, such as that of the Sundering given in LEoF. Whether we like it or not (and obviously Brian doesn't), we have to live with it.

My view is to take the literal words from the timeline in "Cormanthyr", our best and most complete source for dates on the early elven realms. Up until -17500 DR, the details re Ilythiir, Aryvandaar, Illefarn and every elven regional happening talks not of realms or kingdoms, but of settlements. It is only in -17500 DR that the timeline explicitly labels these settlements as 'realms'. My thoughts are that the Sundering in -17600 DR acts as the catalyst to bring these various elven towns and city-states that are loosely grouped and allied together into coherent realms with Coronals as leaders. That way, we can gel Elaine's "Evermeet" novel and her writings re Sharlarion and Atorrnash with the timeline as presented in "Cormanthyr" without talking about echoes of the Sundering, or first and second dynasties etc. Hence, in the century after the Sundering all of the major elven realms coalesce and come together as just that without invalidating any of the printed sources.

Just my thoughts.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
2065 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2006 :  14:20:31  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
The date for the Sundering in LEoF is not exactly correct.



Why do you think it's incorrect? In other words, before we debate how to reconcile a problem, what in your view causes the problem?

--Eric

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1098 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2006 :  17:02:35  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The most compelling inconsistency is the establishment of Aryvandaar. The novel Evermeet p.154 shows that Aryvandaar was founded following the Sundering by elves from the community of Sharlarion. Both Cormanthyr and LEoF date the founding of Aryvandaar at -23,900 DR. If Sharlarion predates Aryvandaar and the Sundering predates Aryvandaar then the Sundering must have occurred before -23,900 DR. Unless as George may be suggesting, Aryvandaar was not in fact settled in -23,900 DR but much later. But that clearly invalidates two printed sources.

But let’s ignore that quandary for a moment and assume the Sundering did take place in -17,600 DR. That would mean that every major elven settlement mentioned in Cormanthyr/LEoF survived the Sundering intact. The novel Evermeet p.154 tells us that “hundreds of elven communities were lost in the chaos and destruction of the Sundering”. Apparently Aryvandaar, Shantel Othreier, Ilythiir, Syórpiir, Illefarn, Orishaar, Thearnytaar, Eiellûr, Miyeritar, and Keltormir were the exceptions. It’s stretching believability that none of these ten elven communities was destroyed during the Sundering. In fact, it’s hard to see the impact the Sundering had at all.

Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6638 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2006 :  02:27:44  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

The most compelling inconsistency is the establishment of Aryvandaar. The novel Evermeet p.154 shows that Aryvandaar was founded following the Sundering by elves from the community of Sharlarion. Both Cormanthyr and LEoF date the founding of Aryvandaar at -23,900 DR. If Sharlarion predates Aryvandaar and the Sundering predates Aryvandaar then the Sundering must have occurred before -23,900 DR. Unless as George may be suggesting, Aryvandaar was not in fact settled in -23,900 DR but much later. But that clearly invalidates two printed sources.



Setting aside the wisdom of basing dates solely on material in "Evermeet" which is cleary structured so as to come from the 'unreliable narrator' perspective, you haven't mentioned that fact that the Ilythiiri (although not Ilythiir as a nation) are mentioned in the novel prior to the Sundering event occurring. This fits with the timeline as presented in LEoF, not "Evermeet". And I musn't have been clear with my first post. What I'm saying (and this is only a viewpoint) is that Aryvandaar existed as a loose coalition of gold elf settlements and Ilythiir existed as a loose coalition of dark elf settlements (and all the rest of the elves mentioned in "Cormanthyr" existed as loose coalitions also) prior to the Sundering. For a real world comparison, I look simply at my own country. We were australians for over 120 years before there was an Australia in 1901. History is littered with examples of peoples having a racial and cultural identity without formalizing that identity as a unified nation. It was the Sundering that brought these independent cities and states and settlements together. With respect, this explanation is a heck of a lot easier than talking about two Ilythiirs and a Sundering and then an echo of the Sundering


quote:

But let’s ignore that quandary for a moment and assume the Sundering did take place in -17,600 DR. That would mean that every major elven settlement mentioned in Cormanthyr/LEoF survived the Sundering intact. The novel Evermeet p.154 tells us that “hundreds of elven communities were lost in the chaos and destruction of the Sundering”. Apparently Aryvandaar, Shantel Othreier, Ilythiir, Syórpiir, Illefarn, Orishaar, Thearnytaar, Eiellûr, Miyeritar, and Keltormir were the exceptions. It’s stretching believability that none of these ten elven communities was destroyed during the Sundering. In fact, it’s hard to see the impact the Sundering had at all.



You've quoted truly: "elven settlements". Not elven realms or kingdoms. No elven realms or kingdoms survived the Sundering intact on my thesis because they weren't in existence as such till after -17600 DR. If "Evermeet" can say that Sharlarion came away practically unscathed from the Sundering, why can't several communities that identified themselves as Ilythiiri, Illefarni etc. have survived also? Sure, Atorrnash went under, but Atorrnash wasn't Ilythiir - quite obviously. Given the territory Ilythiir commanded, it would appear that geographically, its holdings in what was the Lake of Steam (likely there wasn't a Lake of Steam before the Sundering) were worst affected. Similarly, unknown coastal settlements and cities of Illefarn and Miyeritar would have been hard hit too. But to think that the Sundering should have eclipsed these nations or destroyed them is contrary to every single source on the subject.

I'm enjoying this discussion. Let's keep at it.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2006 :  05:42:48  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would imagine that several hundreds of elf communities that lay west of the Sword Coast (and many east of there) were indeed destroyed. They may have been important at the time. But since they were destroyed their history has not survived. There was no one to pass on their stories.

I don't find it too problematic that some of the peoples of Aryvandaar, Shantel Othreier, Ilythiir, Syórpiir, Illefarn, Orishaar, Thearnytaar, Eiellûr, Miyeritar, and Keltormir survived to rebuild and pass on their histories. We know of them exactly because they survived.

Consider that Nagasaki and Hiroshima were devastated by nuclear holocaust in 1945, but are thriving, very large cities today, just 60 years later. The human spirit (and by extension elven) is indefatigable and will not be easily extinquished.

I am certain that plenty of important elven kingdoms were in fact utterly destroyed, and so they have no mention in history. No one today speaks of the great kingdoms of Uquallimaar, or Naryatiir, or Priadenaar. No one mourns their heroes, or sings The song Erushantar, or dreams of eating from the cherished fruit of their silver Peanth trees--precisely because they were all lost beneath the waves so very long ago.

History is written largely by the survivors.
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1098 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2006 :  06:24:24  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Both Gray and George make a compelling case for the survival of the elven communities if indeed the Sundering occurred in -17,600 DR. The statement “We know of them exactly because they survived” particularly resonated with me. That however does not address my first point on the genesis of Aryvandaar.

quote:
Evermeet p.154“The forest community of Sharlarion, however, was one of the few that survived nearly complete. These fortunate elves increased in number and spread into the surrounding forests and hills and lowlands, in time creating a kingdom which was known as Aryvandaar.”
Please tell me George if my interpretation differs from yours, but I take that quote to mean that the community of Sharlarion grew and grew until at some point in time it became a kingdom and took the name Aryvandaar.

I really need you to walk me through your reasoning on this next part George. You are saying that Aryvandaar didn’t become a kingdom in the traditional sense until after -17,600 DR. Cormanthyr/LEoF dates the establishment of Aryvandaar at -23,900 DR. One community becomes the other; they didn't both exist at the same time. Are you saying then that it was Sharlarion that was founded in -23,900 DR and not Aryvandaar? We’re both timeline buffs so perhaps I’ll understand better if you provide some dates. In your opinion, when was Sharlarion founded and when was a community calling itself Aryvandaar first settled?

Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
2065 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2006 :  10:03:06  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not to complicate things, but I thought I remembered there was an implication that the Sundering was triggered on a particular date but then unfolded in the distant past, creating a different reality by the time of the particular date.

I don't have Evermeet to check, but is this recollection true? If so, does it help or hurt the various explanations?

--Eric

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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Dargoth
Great Reader

Australia
4607 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2006 :  10:38:45  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

Not to complicate things, but I thought I remembered there was an implication that the Sundering was triggered on a particular date but then unfolded in the distant past, creating a different reality by the time of the particular date.

I don't have Evermeet to check, but is this recollection true? If so, does it help or hurt the various explanations?

--Eric



Not that I recall the effects of the Sundering occured at the time of the ritual infact chapter 10 which begins right after the sundering said that the Elves had to rebuild after the Sundering

Quote from Evermeet

" Hundreds of Elven communities were lost in the chaos and destruction of the Sundering, others were changed forever. The forest community o Sharlarion, hower was one of the few that survived nearly complete. These fortunate elves increased their number and spread into the surrounding forests and hills and lowlands in time creating a kingdom which was known as Aryvandaar"

“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”

Emperor Sigismund

"Its good to be the King!"

Mel Brooks
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6638 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2006 :  13:43:06  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

I really need you to walk me through your reasoning on this next part George. You are saying that Aryvandaar didn’t become a kingdom in the traditional sense until after -17,600 DR. Cormanthyr/LEoF dates the establishment of Aryvandaar at -23,900 DR. One community becomes the other; they didn't both exist at the same time. Are you saying then that it was Sharlarion that was founded in -23,900 DR and not Aryvandaar? We’re both timeline buffs so perhaps I’ll understand better if you provide some dates. In your opinion, when was Sharlarion founded and when was a community calling itself Aryvandaar first settled?



Let's look at the exact wording of "Cormanthyr" (P.29):
"-23900 DR Establishment of the first settlements of Aryvandaar."

Even the narrative on p.21 states that the elves "had settled into five major civilizations on Faerûn" being Aryvandaar, Illefarn, Miyeritar, Shantel Othreier and Keltormir. Orishaar and Ilythiir are described as "moon and dark elf domains". If all of these were unified, concrete realms, why beat about the bush? Why not describe them as such? The very quote noted above can lend itself to the interpretation that Aryvandaar wasn't a unified realm in -23900 DR; at least that's how I read it. Note that this isn't my preferred view of the situation, and wasn't the case before LEoF gave a date for the Sundering. But given the clash between that date and "Evermeet", I've come to view it as such to avoid having to invalidate other references or make up stuff.

My view is that settlements and cities such as Sharlarion and Occidian ("Evermeet" (hardcover), p.131) were founded from -23900 DR onward and identified themselves as "of Aryvandaar" without being centralised, unified or led by a single ruler. This is similar to the ancient greeks considering themselves Hellenes whilst being individual city-states such as Sparta, Athens etc.

If I assigned a founding date to Sharlarion, I'd be plucking one from the ether. Combining "Evermeet" with "Cormanthyr" leads one to state that Sharlarion was founded either in -23900 DR or some time soon after. The text in the novel makes it appear to be the elder settlement of the region. As for Aryvandaar, I wouldn't describe it as a community. I would first describe it as a loose coalition of gold elven settlements from -23900 DR and a unified realm with a single Coronal ruler from -17600 DR onwards. Aryvandaar as a place where gold elves live exists from -23900 DR, Aryvandaar as a realm exists after the Sundering in -17600 DR.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1098 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2006 :  17:20:03  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George KrashosNote that this isn't my preferred view of the situation, and wasn't the case before LEoF gave a date for the Sundering
Well I'm not a big fan of my "Echo of the Sundering" theory either but the date in LEoF gave me no choice.

I can, however, backtrack from my 1st/2nd dynasty of Illythiir theory by adopting your own logic on the founding of Aryvandaar. Instead of a dark elf kingdom/dynasty, Atorrnash was simply a mighty dark-elf city state before the Sundering. The actual founding of the realm of Ilythiir doesn't happen until centuries later in -23,200 DR.

We cannot say that Atorrnash was founded in -23,200 DR because we known the dark elf city was ancient (even by elf reckoning) by the time Sharlario and his son Cornaith visit in Chapter 7. And Evermeet p.99 tells us their visit to Atorrnash occurred three hundred years after the arrival of the Tintageer elves to Toril.

So there you have it. Evermeet no longer contradicts Cormanthyr because Atorrnash isn't a realm and the realm of Ilythiir wasn't founded until centuries later. So the Sundering can once again take place in -24,000 DR without contradicting anything other than that bizarre reference in LEoF.

Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2006 :  18:38:39  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought we were for keeping the -17,600 DR LEOF dating of the Sundering? Although, I am perfectly happy with Eric's notion of the ritual being performed in -17,600 DR and radiating backwards through time to have effects as early as -24,000 DR and beyond.
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1098 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2006 :  19:30:14  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was unable to find any reference to this "radiating backwards" effect that Eric mentioned, not in the novel anyway. Who was it that came up with the -17,600 DR date anyway?

Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
2065 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2006 :  19:42:37  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Not that I recall the effects of the Sundering occured at the time of the ritual infact chapter 10 which begins right after the sundering said that the Elves had to rebuild after the Sundering.



Found it! It's actually what we put in LEoF. (IIRC, the exact date in LEoF was something of a compromise.) I can't recall the arguments for putting it so far forward anymore, unfortunately, so the following argument assumes there was some reason for doing so (and the date is now fixed).

"–17,600 The Sundering. Evermeet created with Elven High Magic. The spell reaches back and forward in the mists of time."

I've never liked the idea of a literal Sundering, insofar as it represents "today the continents are like this, tomorrow they are like that". It's too traumatic and would leave devastation in its wake, on the island and on Faerun, not the beautific homeland seen immediately afterwards by Starleaf. It's not like a chunk of Faerun just floated away, bobbing on the waves. Moreover, the forests seen by Starleaf when she wakes up are described as "ancient", suggesting the island has been there for a long while already in the immediate wake of the spell.

Also, the Sundering is epic magic of such a scope that one might argue it should have been cast at the height of elven power, not in the early days. In any event, there is some support for this in the novel. Note that Evermeet (hardcover), page 152 is probably as close an explanation as we get to what REALLY happened. Moreover, the discussion on page 154-155, suggests that the Sundering happened AFTER tensions with the Illythiri were at their height and just BEFORE (as in centuries, not millennia) the Crown Wars.

My solution was that the High Magic was cast at this date but that the event occurred earlier in the timeframe. In other words, it was more of a "let's make it as if it was always this way" type of effect than a "lets change the continental structure NOW" kind of spell. Casting the spell did cause untoward devastation at the time of the casting, but the effect was to cause an alteration of the timestream early in the founding of Abeir-Toril.

It's been a while, but I think this is consistent with what is said in the other sources (including the novel). I'd have to think about it for a while to fully recreate the argument.

One other comment, as described in the novel, the Sundering was like a concentration of magic in one locale. In 3e parlance, one might call this a Class 5++++ Magic Node. Perhaps this event is responsible for things like faerzress and earth nodes? In other words, by concentrating magic in one location, the Weave as a whole was diminished and left many strange concentrations of other power in its wake?

--Eric

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/

Edited by - ericlboyd on 15 Oct 2006 20:41:52
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1098 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2006 :  22:20:25  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My take on the 'ancient forests' of Evermeet was that Evermeet was a fragment of Arvandor placed on Toril. Arvandor is timeless so of course the forests would be ancient. Evermeet p.152 says the following "For lack of a better explanation, you might say that Evermeet is a piece of Arvandor, a bridge between worlds--and the combined work of mortal elves and their gods."

Anyway... if Eric is saying that the spell was cast in –17,600 DR but the sundering effects occurred much earlier in the timestream... say -24,000 DR ...then I would be satisfied.

Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe

Canada
956 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2006 :  04:24:37  Show Profile  Visit Kalin Agrivar's Homepage Send Kalin Agrivar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Eric, Brian, George and everyone else discussing this topic, thanks for everyone's replies

I have alot of random thoughts on this topic but it is late now and I need some time to process everything but I'd like to respond to Eric's thoughts on this:

quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
I've never liked the idea of a literal Sundering, insofar as it represents "today the continents are like this, tomorrow they are like that". It's too traumatic and would leave devastation in its wake, on the island and on Faerun, not the beautific homeland seen immediately afterwards by Starleaf. It's not like a chunk of Faerun just floated away, bobbing on the waves. Moreover, the forests seen by Starleaf when she wakes up are described as "ancient", suggesting the island has been there for a long while already in the immediate wake of the spell.


That is exactly how I envisioned the Sundering...it may have taken a few days give or take to finish but it was an immediate, cataclysmic evocation/transmution...but I don't see Evermeet "bobbing away", I envision it like this:

Guided by the Seledrine (sp?) in a "great plains" region of the super-continent a "grand casting tower" is built/raised by the gathering of sun and moon high magi with some wild elf apprentices/acolytes. The Tower actually is rooted far into the planet's crust into the planet's mantle.

The elven high mages began the high magic ritual (epic magic) of Sundering...the magic is focused into the tower and down into the planet's crust where it fractures the super-continent's tetonic plate. The tower then forms an anchor point as the magic does not tear the island away from the mainland but tears the mainland in two, the tetonic plates are pulled away by the forming island (imagine opening an elevator's door with your two hands).

As planned, the island itself is protected by all the destruction by the high magic, it becomes the "eye of the storm" as the super-continent is pulled asunder and then to preserve the island from the climatic upheaval the island is merged with a piece of Arvandor it self, a piece of the Elven Realm "layed" over and into the new island, making it the "elven homeland" with the great ancient forests.

The rest of the planet is devestated as there is severe climatic changes, earthquakes and tsuanomis (sp?) and volcanic activities...what ever Empires of the Creator Races, giants and dragons remaining accross the planet have ended, giving the elves, dwarves and primative humans the time needed to claim the world as their own


this synopsis explains the current shape of Aber-Toril today, how Evermeet survived the Sundering and why the elves are drawn to Evermeet (as it straddles the Prime world and the Realm of the Elven Powers...much like the Manifest Zones in Eberron, to plug that world) and even the "echos in time" theory since the merging of Arvanador into Evermeet is one of those "deific" things, like the Dawn Cataclysm. I also use the Sundering as the "Coup de Gras" to the Creator Races...the "critical blow" being the Tearfall over 6000 years earlier

I'll write more later but for now two additional points: I don't have any books with me so I used general terms/names and I have been working on a pre-modern age timeline for a while now that I will submit to Alaundo with my project, Brian's pre-sundering map being an inspiration to my synopsis

Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar

- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand
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Wizbane
Acolyte

36 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2006 :  15:13:02  Show Profile  Visit Wizbane's Homepage Send Wizbane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nice thread.

The only tiny contribution I came up with out of my memory is that before and during the Crown Wars we know the names of at least two Coronals ruling an unified Aryvandaar.

There was one at the beginning, around -23.900 DR (name escapes me) and later Gilvaas during the Crown Wars. Didn't check it tough, I think somewhere it's stated that Aryvandaar was established "under Coronal.....(name)". Yvoshaan? Something like that.

So I'm positive about the time-backtracking high magic effect theory and not so much about interpretations on the exact time of unification of Aryvandaar.



EDIT: nevermind. It was Ivosaar Vyshaan in -15.300 DR. I mixed up the two names. So we don't know of any Coronals before -17.600 DR.

Edited by - Wizbane on 16 Oct 2006 15:24:04
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Kalin Agrivar
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Posted - 16 Oct 2006 :  17:42:24  Show Profile  Visit Kalin Agrivar's Homepage Send Kalin Agrivar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I’m still trying to wrap my mind around everyone’s arguments

The original purpose of this scroll to me was not to argue the date of the Sundering as I missed the fact that the date of the Sundering was reprinted much later in the time line. My intended point was the dark elves must have been around long before the First Flowering...as would most wild elves and maybe the sea and winged elves...everyone seems to think that elven culture begins at the First Flowering. In the Rage of Dragon series and then in Dragons of Faerun it is obvious that there was a thriving elven (slave) culture long before the sun and moon elves arrived. Soooo....

The Sundering either -24,000 DR or -17,600 DR (a 6400 year discrepancy)

This gives the elves almost 7 millennia of cultural and racial growth and development and all the other races in Aber-Toril 6.5 millennia before the destruction of the (then) known world...that is a long time, even for an elf. My question would be why there weren’t dozens of other great Elven kingdoms before the Sundering...and why did they all allow their nations to be destroyed?

Another thought...the Time of Dragons also ends in -24,000 (as we know now by the casting of the Dracorage Mythal)...this builds on the -24K Sundering theory...the elven slaves who cast the Dracorage Mythal then entreat their gods for their “homeland”. The -24K sundering also justifies how there is 9 elven kingdoms established in the first 3000 years after the Sundering (meaning the 64000 year discrepancy could have produced over 20 eleven nations)

I'm sure if you look at the timeline and remove the -24K Sunderinging and put it in the -17.6K slot you will find it creates more illogic and questions then it solves

Minor Rant : And for the record I have never been able to swallow the fact the elves actually initiated the Sundering (verses just going into the greatest ocean and just raising the island). The incredible level of selfishness, superiority, callousness and plain egotism needed to actually decide to tear a world apart to make your own “special place” astounds me. The loss of millions of lives, the across-the-board destruction of Nature, the centuries of destruction...Why would a pantheon of CG powers that revere beauty and nature condone this? Why would a generally CG race initiate this? *shrug* I could go on ...

quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
My solution was that the High Magic was cast at this date but that the event occurred earlier in the timeframe. In other words, it was more of a "let's make it as if it was always this way" type of effect than a "lets change the continental structure NOW" kind of spell. Casting the spell did cause untoward devastation at the time of the casting, but the effect was to cause an alteration of the time stream early in the founding of Abeir-Toril.



quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Anyway... if Eric is saying that the spell was cast in –17,600 DR but the sundering effects occurred much earlier in the time stream... say -24,000 DR ...then I would be satisfied.



Anywho I do like the creativity of this idea to explain the "dual Sunderings" but I do not understand the logic in this explanation...that is I understand the statement (the elves cast a great spell which was so powerful that it tears the continent apart [either slowly or immediately] so the spell actually initiates 6400 years before the casting) but not how the explaination makes sense

In the “Immediate Sunder” theory I could accept the casting of the spell as the loss of thousands of elven lives justified (in a small way) the elves’ need and desire for their homeland/refuge...they were willing to sacrifice their own to create Evermeet but the “Time Travel Sunder” theory practically invalidates that sacrifice.

Using the “Time Travel Sunder” I can’t help to see it more as a “let us cast this spell that is a true cataclysm onto the world for our own selfish benefit, but instead of doing it now where it will hurt us we’ll do it in the past so by now we’ll have a nice island ready for us...It will knock down any who would impede the growth of our civilization and no one will really know it was us as we did it 6400 years in the future”

It would be like “we send a barrage of nuclear warheads far back in time eradicate a civilization and then allow nature to recover so we can then found our own civilization in the future/present without any resistance from that past/present civilization and without facing the consequences of anyone knowing we sent the barrage in the first place”

I also think the “Time Travel Sunder” opens up that Pandora’s Box of circular logic and Temporal Paradoxes that the Chronomancer created


Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar

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ericlboyd
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Posted - 16 Oct 2006 :  19:23:24  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm still trying to recall my thoughts on this topic, so I reserve the right to change my mind and/or not make sense. ;-)

My intent in explaining the -17,600 DR date was NOT to ascribe any particular importance to the -24,000 DR date. I figured the Sundering reached back millions of years to the formation of the planet and altered the shape of the world as it evolved.

Here's the explanation:

Although their original intent was to break off a piece of Faerun and create a sanctuary, the effect of the Sundering was far different, augmented and shaped by the Seldarine. In -17,600 DR, the elves actually succeeded in concentrating the Weave enough to pull a piece of Arvandor into the Realms (the reverse of the somewhat more common practice of the Outer Planes absorbing chunks of the Material Plane) during the prehistory of the world (millions of years ago) to serve as their private sanctuary.

In so doing the elves altered the flow of time and altered the history of Faerun. History did not change as much as one might think, as the Seldarine hid the existence of Evermeet from the other races (e.g. the Creator Races). The early elves had myths that Evermeet existed, but its existence wasn't proven in the new timestream until some time after -23,900 DR (date uncertain).

The true cost of the Sundering, which Starleaf perceived with limited understanding in the form of destroyed elven civilizations and deaths, is in the lost possibilities it represented. By concentrating the Weave to such an extent to create Evermeet an extremely hospitable environment, the elves effectively made the rest of Faerun less hospitable to their race. As a result, the elves did not flourish as early as represented in the early chapters of Evermeet. Early civilizations such as Attornash were destroyed insofar as they NEVER EXISTED. Others, such as Aryvandaar, did not grow to their height until much later. The influence of the Seldarine over the Fair Folk living outside of Evermeet was sufficiently reduced that events such as the Crown Wars and the Descent of the Drow could occur.

If you follow this explanation, then the correct way to interpret Evermeet: A Novel is that up until the Sundering we have one history, after the Sundering events continue based on an alternate past history. Before the Sundering all Abeir-Toril is hospitable to the Fair Folk; after the Sundering Evermeet is particularly hospitable while the rest of Faerun is less hospitable. And once again, the elves employed magic with unforeseen consequences that radically reshaped the world.

--Eric

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Kalin Agrivar
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Posted - 16 Oct 2006 :  20:34:25  Show Profile  Visit Kalin Agrivar's Homepage Send Kalin Agrivar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
If you follow this explanation, then the correct way to interpret Evermeet: A Novel is that up until the Sundering we have one history, after the Sundering events continue based on an alternate past history. Before the Sundering all Abeir-Toril is hospitable to the Fair Folk; after the Sundering Evermeet is particularly hospitable while the rest of Faerun is less hospitable. And once again, the elves employed magic with unforeseen consequences that radically reshaped the world.

--Eric



I understand what you are saying, and it makes sense for the elven race, but how does that then affect the non-elves? Was there an actual physical sundering of the continents, the tearing up of the "Pangaea"ish super continent?

Wouldn't that have been an elemental alteration of the Weave that would have favoured the elves? I can't imagine Ao allowing the elvish deities to do this unless Ao has plans for the elves that are beyond the power of the Seladrine...

And wouldn't have playing with time been beyond even the greatest epic spell a mortal can cast, having reach to the beginning of time?(unless Ao willed it, I guess...see above )

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ericlboyd
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Posted - 16 Oct 2006 :  21:48:43  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar

I understand what you are saying, and it makes sense for the elven race, but how does that then affect the non-elves?


It does and it doesn't. The elves changed the world for everyone by altering the timeline, but the resultant world is not all that different than before (there's an island no one found in the middle of the ocean, which presumably altered things like currents and the wind, but life on Faerun proceeded pretty much the same). Arguably the elves tweaked the Weave enough that it impacted the development of other cultures, but I suspect it was more a change to the ability of the elves to connect to the Weave through reverie.

quote:
Was there an actual physical sundering of the continents, the tearing up of the "Pangaea"ish super continent?


Yes and no. The tectonic plates were shifted around to make room for land imported from Arvandor.

quote:
Wouldn't that have been an elemental alteration of the Weave that would have favoured the elves? I can't imagine Ao allowing the elvish deities to do this unless Ao has plans for the elves that are beyond the power of the Seladrine...


It didn't really favor the elves. The Fair Folk created a concentration of the Weave, which diminished the Weave elsewhere. The total "Weave power" remained constant. Only the distribution changed.

quote:
And wouldn't have playing with time been beyond even the greatest epic spell a mortal can cast, having reach to the beginning of time?(unless Ao willed it, I guess...see above )



Yes. It required the intervention of the Seldarine, who did it in a way that it largely only impacted their sphere of influence (the elves), so Ao allowed it.

--Eric

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Kalin Agrivar
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Posted - 16 Oct 2006 :  21:57:36  Show Profile  Visit Kalin Agrivar's Homepage Send Kalin Agrivar a Private Message  Reply with Quote


so ultimately then it wasn't an actual Sundering of the planet but the elves altered Reality by tampering with the timeline of Aber-Toril...thats some serious chronomancy

Was the planet one "super continent" before the Sundering? Even with the chronomancy the change in the shape of the planet the climate and geology, thus civilizations, would all have been altered too...

but doesn't that risk the "go back in time and kill your grandmother" paradox, if they changed the world that much?

There goes all my pre-Sundering maps

(sorry if I am being a pain Eric )

Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar

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- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand

Edited by - Kalin Agrivar on 16 Oct 2006 22:01:19
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ericlboyd
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Posted - 16 Oct 2006 :  22:03:59  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
Was the planet one "super continent" before the Sundering? Even with the chronomancy the change in the shape of the planet the climate and geology, thus civilizations, would all have been altered too...


I think it was probably a super-continent in the ancient past in both timestreams.

quote:
but doesn't that risk the "go back in time and kill your grandmother" paradox, if they changed the world that much?


No, thanks to the Seldarine "hiding" Evermeet from the elves until the timeframe caught up to the same spot.

quote:
There goes all my pre-Sundering maps


Why should it?

--Eric

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Brian R. James
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Posted - 17 Oct 2006 :  01:48:34  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Isn't it amazing how different people can read the same thing but come up with completely different conclusions?

I’ll have to respectfully disagree with Eric on his “splitting the timestream” theory. I'm all for patching up continuity but this now makes my "Echo of the Sundering" theory seem pretty tame eh George? I’m sure if Elaine had intended the Sundering to ripple backward in time and create a new timestream, she would have just said so in the novel.

Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

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Gray Richardson
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Posted - 17 Oct 2006 :  02:02:02  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I love your ideas, Eric, and I like the idea that the Sundering may have been more gradual than we have suspected.

But my question to you is, how gentle exactly was this Sundering? Was it glacier slow? (ie. radical movement over thousands or millions of years but imperceptible on a human time-scale) Or was there any kind of sudden, cataclysmic shifting worth mentioning in either -17,600 DR or earlier?

I had always thought that the Sword Coast (and lands to the west of it) was supposed to have been sliced off dramatically in the Sundering. By extension I always thought the Moonshaes were actually part of the continent before the Sundering.

Would the map of the continent have looked markedly different prior to -17,600 or even -24,000 DR? Were there any earthquakes or tidal waves or massive destruction on a human scale during that period such that people would notice the alteration in terrain? Or was all this continental drift pretty much concluded by 35,000 years ago.

The big question is: did the map of the world that the Sarrukh knew back in -35,000 DR appear very different to the way the map looked after -17,600 DR?
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George Krashos
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Posted - 17 Oct 2006 :  02:28:44  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

Isn't it amazing how different people can read the same thing but come up with completely different conclusions?

I’ll have to respectfully disagree with Eric on his “splitting the timestream” theory. I'm all for patching up continuity but this now makes my "Echo of the Sundering" theory seem pretty tame eh George?


Eric's solution does have the distinction of not changing or adding anything into the current date mix ...

But unsurprisingly, I still think my solution is the most simple and requires the least amount of work to enable the 'fix'. Sue me.

I will defer to Mr Boyd however. Considering he consulted on that time reference wording in the LEoF entry, he intended it to be like that the whole time.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 17 Oct 2006 02:32:11
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