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 Historical Canon Dates and the Early Elven Empires

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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Kalin Agrivar Posted - 13 Oct 2006 : 19:59:11
I noticed soemthing last night

** minor spoiler **

Arrival of the gold and silver elves : -24,500
The Sundering : -24,000
Founding of Aryvandaar (the first gold/silver elf kingdom): -23,900 DR
Founding of Ilythiir (the dark elf/future drow kingdom): -23,200

now I don't have my Evermeet novel with me but didn't Moonflower and his son encounter the dark elf kingdom of Ilythiir long before the defeat of the Mountain Master and the especially before the Sundering?

Wouldn't that make the founding of Ilythiir centuries before the Sunderings, maybe even before the first Flowering and into the Time of Dragons?
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
CorellonsDevout Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 06:20:28
I may not fully understand your question, so if I sound snide I apologize, but there would have to be a pre-Sundering history. Evermeet is very old, to be sure, but it wasn't there in the beginning. This doesn't mean there are two histories of Faerun. I think people are just speculating on the events.
Razz Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 01:57:19
Hold on, from what I am gleaning there's TWO histories to Faerun? Pre and Post Sundering? Does this affect every race as well?

What the flying *%^) !?!?!

As if the Marvel Universe wasn't already terrible with their "alternate everything" events.

So the FR designers find THIS level of alternate reality ok, but refuse to do an "alternate reality FUTURE" concerning the Spellplague? As in, you have your Toril post-Spellplague and a Toril with a prevention of the Spellplague. That's not ok but this Sundering stuff is?

Way to go for consistency yet again. Sorry to sound sour but it really does leave a bad taste in my mouth concerning FR designers.

TBeholder Posted - 17 Nov 2012 : 04:17:02
"There were no big magic screw-ups and destroyed villages, it's just a... uh... timey-wimei side effect!", aside of the whole time travel part, feels like continued whitewashing of elves. Though it's expectable in-universe, obviously.
Euranna Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 23:56:22
I think you both covered my idea well. :D The High Magic ritual moved through the whibly wobly timey whimey stream and pulled Evermeet from Arvandor/Fairie, which could have pulled Tintageer from there...and thereby destroying it in that moment and pulling it into the Realms time. Or at least the perceived destruction of it. ;)
Of course, this is all just musings. And of course, I read Evermeet after the Sundering was announced and I might be influenced by that. I admit it. I like the possibility.
Time is not a straight line, especially when you blend in other planes/dimensions.
Markustay Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 15:22:36
Well, as Quale said, time works very different in the Feywild. Also, if I am correct about Elven High Magic (tapping into the timestream to achieve results using the 'Butterfly Effect'), then that means the Elven ritual found a point in time when the 'veil between the worlds' was in-flux (anytime there is magical chaos) and steered a part of the chaos to bring about a specific planer shift in geography.

Like what happened when the Spellplague hit, when parts of Abeir (and perhaps other worlds/planes) got swapped with Toril, except they were able to control a part of it so that it wouldn't be so random. According to Brian James (and others), this is not a Spellplague-specific phenomena; it happens whenever Realmspace is in magical turmoil (usually when the goddess of magic dies). It is also a common theme in the planes - the best known 'realms-swapping' region is Ravenloft, but we also have Faerie (parts of which appear every so often in the material world) and the Border Towns on the Great Ring.

I think there is some sort of self-correcting mechanism in the universe, and when the universe detects something is not in the right place, it gets shunted where it thinks it ought to go... which isn't always correct. This is kinda like how the afterlife works - you go to the plane you are closest aligned with - except it can effect entire geographic areas, if nearly everyone within that region conforms to the other planes attributes. During times of chaos, the program gets messed up, and not everything winds up where it is supposed to go.

There are probably several factors that come into play when this happens, which would include electromagnetic and quantum signatures, and also alignment (morality and predisposition). All the Elves have to do is somehow 'mask' something to appear as something else (when the planes are in flux) and it creates the situation they desire. Thus, High Magic has the potential to become the fantasy equivalent of a nuclear bomb; think how the Dark Disaster (to Miyeritar) happened - they were basically 'erased'. This is why it also needs a helping-hand from the divine, because of all the forces at work - mortals could never achieve highly specific results (using the Butterfly effect) without that sort of godly prescience guiding it. High Magic becomes the ultimate gambit - you can achieve whatever you want, but you have no idea what you will lose in the bargain to get the desired result.

Quale Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 10:44:07
That's what I've thought, time is weird in Faerie, and the Sundering worked backwards in time. It would be ironic if the creation of Evermeet destroyed Tintageer.
Zireael Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 09:34:04
Tintageer could be Evermeet? How?
Euranna Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 01:21:05
Since I just got done reading Evermeet, I have to say that my gut instinct was that Evermeet could very well be Tintageer somehow. It just struck me that when it was being destroyed how it was magically induced destruction. So, this would also make sense with Evermeet "snapping back" from the Spellplague.

I am actually becoming facinated with the Sharn. Especially once I learned that some people volunteer to become Sharn. The mystery around them is too intriguing. :D
Markustay Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 16:21:32
Yeah, this whole Sundering thing is what initially gave birth to my theories on Elven High Magic - that it is so incredibly powerful because it taps into time and probabilities (similar to the Scarlet Witch's powers). The Elves didn't create the Sundering that created Evermeet, they tapped into the Ao-generated event and molded a small piece of it to fit with their own desires (and probably destroyed Tintageer as a byproduct of the process... there is always a heavy cost to using time-altering magics). Thus, they reached back into the past, to create Evermeet when and where they needed it. When the Spellplague occurred, Evermeet 'snapped-back' to where it should have been all along... it was reflection of Tintageer that got pulled into the Prime by their High Magic.

The Spellplague may have been a good way to restore other Elf-driven catastrophes and geographic changes. Then again, it is still supposed to be on-going throughout much of post-3e, so it could still be a great way to 'restore' Toril to its former (Edwardian?) glory.

I think there also may be some sort of connection between the Sharn and Pharimm, and this type of probability magic, but I haven't gotten the details figured out yet. Something creates a magical improbability, then the phaerimm show up (like sharks in a feeding frenzy), and then sharn show-up (and/or are created) to fix the problem and restore balance. Phaerimm are like a virus to a sick world (they attack its magical field), and Sharn are like antibodies.
Barastir Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 14:26:54
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha

I definitely think bladesong didn't come along until the Golden Age of the elves (the First Flowering, before the Crown Wars). Like any art form it would need at least some civilization and excess time away from bare survival, to be developed and practiced.

Also, think of how long it would have taken to be invented. We're talking about a combat form that in its current, invented and perfected form takes a CENTURY to learn. And that's when you're being trained by existing masters. It likely took thousands of years to fully develop.


I very much agree with this idea, it is very good indeed. Thank you, Hoondatha!
CorellonsDevout Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 05:58:13
*scratches head* wow, elves are my favorite races, yet this scroll just proves how ignorant I am when it comes to their history. It's been several years since I've read Evermeet, and I have the Grand History of the Realms, along with a couple other elven source books, but wow...go me hehe. Anyway, it makes me wonder what the upcoming Sundering will mean for civilizations, both elven and non...
Brian R. James Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 16:26:45
This thread is cool because it shows that even the lorelords of the Realms disagree from time to time. :-)
Hoondatha Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 14:22:03
I definitely think bladesong didn't come along until the Golden Age of the elves (the First Flowering, before the Crown Wars). Like any art form it would need at least some civilization and excess time away from bare survival, to be developed and practiced.

Also, think of how long it would have taken to be invented. We're talking about a combat form that in its current, invented and perfected form takes a CENTURY to learn. And that's when you're being trained by existing masters. It likely took thousands of years to fully develop.
Barastir Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 10:32:26
This scroll is very nice indeed... And I was trying to discover the time of the Sundering because the unofficial Bladesinger lore puts that Bladesong started some time just after the Sundering.

Well, the many things are difficult to handle in this situation, but the one that caught my attention is the idea that civilizations destroyed by the Sundering would be considered as they never existed, like Atorrnash. Is it was so, how could Danilo find the information to build his account of elven history?

About the Bladesong, maybe it could just be created later... Althought I think it could be created around - 24k anyway, when the Dragon Age ended and the elves started gathering in larger communities.
Brimstone Posted - 17 May 2010 : 09:08:15
Nice Scroll...
George Krashos Posted - 24 Oct 2009 : 11:18:15
I distinctly remember asking for the Sundering date to pre-date the Cormanthyr timeline when LEoF was developed but Rich Baker thought otherwise. Eric's "backwards and forwards through the mists of time" thingy was his attempt to salvage the inconsistency.

My responses in 2006 were coloured by my knowledge that the FR product line was still a happening thing, and I wasn't going to rock the company boat. Now that the boat has been hauled into drydock, it doesn't seem to matter much anymore.

-- George Krashos
Quale Posted - 24 Oct 2009 : 08:29:08
Don't know why, always pictured it buried on some beach, Planet of the Apes style. Not a fan of playing in the Underdark.

In 20000 years there were so many geological changes, you can't really go wrong picking the place.
Iliyan Posted - 22 Oct 2009 : 20:04:26
Atorrnash ending up in Katashaka is quite improbable..

I think the main thing I'd need would be it's location before the Sundering. After that I could easily determine it's location after the Sundering.. Since if we take into account the risen land-mass of Evermeet, the sea level wouldn't be raised THAT much drastically.. Perhaps a few meters. It isn't the water rising that destroyed it, but much more probable the cataclysmic damage to that part of the world.

Furthermore, I was debating with a friend should the city itself be actually underwater, or should I put it under the sea floor. In the Underdark below the Shining Sea.
Quale Posted - 22 Oct 2009 : 19:43:49
Atornash fell somewhere in the south, I'd place it near the shore, probably Lapaliiya (pearls).

Tough in my alternate Realms when the continents separated the city ended up in Katashaka and is the same place as Qabalrin of Xendrik.

Hoondatha Posted - 22 Oct 2009 : 13:50:47
Thanks for resurrecting this thread, because I either missed it the first time, or had completely forgotten it.

I'm much more of the "cataclysmic, immediate, -24K" Sundering camp, and what I find most interesting about this whole discussion is that it stems from one timeline discrepency. All of the sources up to LEoF point to around -24K, and then we have the LEoF number. Ignoring for the moment that Mr. Boyd actually wrote that number, isn't it logical to conclude that the LEoF number is incorrect?

Maybe it's just because I've played a bunch of Legend of the 5 Rings, where the designers specifically set out to include out-right false and somewhat-misleading entries in the official timeline (thanks, Scorpion clan), but I'm used to valuing the timelines in one book against another, weighing them, and then deciding that just maybe in this instance, Khelben's been having fun writing books. I think the circumlocutions that have been generated to explain why two wildly different dates exist are fascinating, but in the end aren't necessary. I think it makes more sense to declare one date ficticious, and leave it at that.

OP: sorry for somewhat derailing (or re-railing) the thread. In answer to your question, I don't have the least idea, but I'm really interested to see what others come up with.
Iliyan Posted - 22 Oct 2009 : 09:44:09
I'm going to find myself guilty of shameless post necromancy.. But, I think it better then starting a new thread. Since this thread should certainly not be allowed to wither and be forgotten. It is so full of amazing and wonderful lore and theory, not to mention the actual greats of the FR writing here.

Ultimately, the reason for the resurrection is a question on my part. Namely this:

Where do you think Atorrnash sank?

I'm asking the question because I'm making an adventure, and I'm simply going to be blunt and disregard that time-space paradox of whether Atorrnash ever existed due to the Sundering. I'm just going to say that it sank.. somewhere.
Now, as a DM I have to come up with a place where to put Atorrnash.. Not necessarily in one piece, but scattered on the sunken shores, below the Shining Sea. How far from the present shore would you place it?

My predicament comes from the fact that I've never seen a map of that age that shows anything south of Tethyr.. Which is kinda weird.
Kalin Agrivar Posted - 17 Oct 2006 : 04:56:18
Eric,

Because, I was using the -24K date as the time of the Sundering and your explaination appears to have the actual continential drift eithor gradual and non-cataclysmic or much earlier in the planet's history than -24K

like Gray, I would like any details on the actual "sundering" of Aber-Toril..if there was one...

so here is how I understand your explaination now (some copy pasting from my last synopsis):

Guided by the Seledrine (sp?) in a "great plains" region of the super-continent a "grand casting tower" is built/raised by the gathering of sun and moon high magi with some wild elf apprentices/acolytes.

The elven high mages began the high magic ritual (epic magic) of Sundering...the magic is focused into the tower and crosses into the Outer Planes where it takes a piece of Arvanador and sends it (basically) to the beginning of time (if all the planets were created at once) where it is cloaked and hidden until the elven gods choose to grant it to the elves. But the magic is barely controlled and it radically alters the Weave, weakening the elves and altering their past as the magic enriching areas are altered or erased by the Sundering casting.

quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Although their original intent was to break off a piece of Faerun and create a sanctuary, the effect of the Sundering was far different, augmented and shaped by the Seldarine. In -17,600 DR, the elves actually succeeded in concentrating the Weave enough to pull a piece of Arvandor into the Realms (the reverse of the somewhat more common practice of the Outer Planes absorbing chunks of the Material Plane) during the prehistory of the world (millions of years ago) to serve as their private sanctuary.

In so doing the elves altered the flow of time and altered the history of Faerun. History did not change as much as one might think, as the Seldarine hid the existence of Evermeet from the other races (e.g. the Creator Races). The early elves had myths that Evermeet existed, but its existence wasn't proven in the new timestream until some time after -23,900 DR (date uncertain).

The true cost of the Sundering, which Starleaf perceived with limited understanding in the form of destroyed elven civilizations and deaths, is in the lost possibilities it represented. By concentrating the Weave to such an extent to create Evermeet an extremely hospitable environment, the elves effectively made the rest of Faerun less hospitable to their race. As a result, the elves did not flourish as early as represented in the early chapters of Evermeet. Early civilizations such as Attornash were destroyed insofar as they NEVER EXISTED. Others, such as Aryvandaar, did not grow to their height until much later. The influence of the Seldarine over the Fair Folk living outside of Evermeet was sufficiently reduced that events such as the Crown Wars and the Descent of the Drow could occur.

the paradox I see is this: if Attornash existed before the Sundering casting and their were some elven spellcasters from Attornash - then logically if Attornash disappeared then so did it's elven spellcasters...and if Aryvanadaar's development was stalled due to the rearrangement of the Weave then the elven spellcasters from the "orginal" Aryvanadaar would also not have existed

So if the world (as the world was) of the elves was altered and the history of the elves changed in the ripple effect of the temporal change, then you have the paradox of how did the spellcasters cast the Sundering if the changes they made erased/altered their history...which would have then created the situation of no elves there to cast the Sundering

(thus the "kill your grandmother" paradox, if you go back in time and accidentally kill your grandmother, one of your parents would not have been born thus you [as you are before you went back in time]couldn't have been born thus you couldn't have gone back in time to kill grandma but you did but you couldn't have, etc. )

Thank you for all your time Eric
George Krashos Posted - 17 Oct 2006 : 02:28:44
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

Isn't it amazing how different people can read the same thing but come up with completely different conclusions?

I’ll have to respectfully disagree with Eric on his “splitting the timestream” theory. I'm all for patching up continuity but this now makes my "Echo of the Sundering" theory seem pretty tame eh George?


Eric's solution does have the distinction of not changing or adding anything into the current date mix ...

But unsurprisingly, I still think my solution is the most simple and requires the least amount of work to enable the 'fix'. Sue me.

I will defer to Mr Boyd however. Considering he consulted on that time reference wording in the LEoF entry, he intended it to be like that the whole time.

-- George Krashos
Gray Richardson Posted - 17 Oct 2006 : 02:02:02
I love your ideas, Eric, and I like the idea that the Sundering may have been more gradual than we have suspected.

But my question to you is, how gentle exactly was this Sundering? Was it glacier slow? (ie. radical movement over thousands or millions of years but imperceptible on a human time-scale) Or was there any kind of sudden, cataclysmic shifting worth mentioning in either -17,600 DR or earlier?

I had always thought that the Sword Coast (and lands to the west of it) was supposed to have been sliced off dramatically in the Sundering. By extension I always thought the Moonshaes were actually part of the continent before the Sundering.

Would the map of the continent have looked markedly different prior to -17,600 or even -24,000 DR? Were there any earthquakes or tidal waves or massive destruction on a human scale during that period such that people would notice the alteration in terrain? Or was all this continental drift pretty much concluded by 35,000 years ago.

The big question is: did the map of the world that the Sarrukh knew back in -35,000 DR appear very different to the way the map looked after -17,600 DR?
Brian R. James Posted - 17 Oct 2006 : 01:48:34
Isn't it amazing how different people can read the same thing but come up with completely different conclusions?

I’ll have to respectfully disagree with Eric on his “splitting the timestream” theory. I'm all for patching up continuity but this now makes my "Echo of the Sundering" theory seem pretty tame eh George? I’m sure if Elaine had intended the Sundering to ripple backward in time and create a new timestream, she would have just said so in the novel.
ericlboyd Posted - 16 Oct 2006 : 22:03:59
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
Was the planet one "super continent" before the Sundering? Even with the chronomancy the change in the shape of the planet the climate and geology, thus civilizations, would all have been altered too...


I think it was probably a super-continent in the ancient past in both timestreams.

quote:
but doesn't that risk the "go back in time and kill your grandmother" paradox, if they changed the world that much?


No, thanks to the Seldarine "hiding" Evermeet from the elves until the timeframe caught up to the same spot.

quote:
There goes all my pre-Sundering maps


Why should it?

--Eric
Kalin Agrivar Posted - 16 Oct 2006 : 21:57:36


so ultimately then it wasn't an actual Sundering of the planet but the elves altered Reality by tampering with the timeline of Aber-Toril...thats some serious chronomancy

Was the planet one "super continent" before the Sundering? Even with the chronomancy the change in the shape of the planet the climate and geology, thus civilizations, would all have been altered too...

but doesn't that risk the "go back in time and kill your grandmother" paradox, if they changed the world that much?

There goes all my pre-Sundering maps

(sorry if I am being a pain Eric )
ericlboyd Posted - 16 Oct 2006 : 21:48:43
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar

I understand what you are saying, and it makes sense for the elven race, but how does that then affect the non-elves?


It does and it doesn't. The elves changed the world for everyone by altering the timeline, but the resultant world is not all that different than before (there's an island no one found in the middle of the ocean, which presumably altered things like currents and the wind, but life on Faerun proceeded pretty much the same). Arguably the elves tweaked the Weave enough that it impacted the development of other cultures, but I suspect it was more a change to the ability of the elves to connect to the Weave through reverie.

quote:
Was there an actual physical sundering of the continents, the tearing up of the "Pangaea"ish super continent?


Yes and no. The tectonic plates were shifted around to make room for land imported from Arvandor.

quote:
Wouldn't that have been an elemental alteration of the Weave that would have favoured the elves? I can't imagine Ao allowing the elvish deities to do this unless Ao has plans for the elves that are beyond the power of the Seladrine...


It didn't really favor the elves. The Fair Folk created a concentration of the Weave, which diminished the Weave elsewhere. The total "Weave power" remained constant. Only the distribution changed.

quote:
And wouldn't have playing with time been beyond even the greatest epic spell a mortal can cast, having reach to the beginning of time?(unless Ao willed it, I guess...see above )



Yes. It required the intervention of the Seldarine, who did it in a way that it largely only impacted their sphere of influence (the elves), so Ao allowed it.

--Eric
Kalin Agrivar Posted - 16 Oct 2006 : 20:34:25
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
If you follow this explanation, then the correct way to interpret Evermeet: A Novel is that up until the Sundering we have one history, after the Sundering events continue based on an alternate past history. Before the Sundering all Abeir-Toril is hospitable to the Fair Folk; after the Sundering Evermeet is particularly hospitable while the rest of Faerun is less hospitable. And once again, the elves employed magic with unforeseen consequences that radically reshaped the world.

--Eric



I understand what you are saying, and it makes sense for the elven race, but how does that then affect the non-elves? Was there an actual physical sundering of the continents, the tearing up of the "Pangaea"ish super continent?

Wouldn't that have been an elemental alteration of the Weave that would have favoured the elves? I can't imagine Ao allowing the elvish deities to do this unless Ao has plans for the elves that are beyond the power of the Seladrine...

And wouldn't have playing with time been beyond even the greatest epic spell a mortal can cast, having reach to the beginning of time?(unless Ao willed it, I guess...see above )
ericlboyd Posted - 16 Oct 2006 : 19:23:24
I'm still trying to recall my thoughts on this topic, so I reserve the right to change my mind and/or not make sense. ;-)

My intent in explaining the -17,600 DR date was NOT to ascribe any particular importance to the -24,000 DR date. I figured the Sundering reached back millions of years to the formation of the planet and altered the shape of the world as it evolved.

Here's the explanation:

Although their original intent was to break off a piece of Faerun and create a sanctuary, the effect of the Sundering was far different, augmented and shaped by the Seldarine. In -17,600 DR, the elves actually succeeded in concentrating the Weave enough to pull a piece of Arvandor into the Realms (the reverse of the somewhat more common practice of the Outer Planes absorbing chunks of the Material Plane) during the prehistory of the world (millions of years ago) to serve as their private sanctuary.

In so doing the elves altered the flow of time and altered the history of Faerun. History did not change as much as one might think, as the Seldarine hid the existence of Evermeet from the other races (e.g. the Creator Races). The early elves had myths that Evermeet existed, but its existence wasn't proven in the new timestream until some time after -23,900 DR (date uncertain).

The true cost of the Sundering, which Starleaf perceived with limited understanding in the form of destroyed elven civilizations and deaths, is in the lost possibilities it represented. By concentrating the Weave to such an extent to create Evermeet an extremely hospitable environment, the elves effectively made the rest of Faerun less hospitable to their race. As a result, the elves did not flourish as early as represented in the early chapters of Evermeet. Early civilizations such as Attornash were destroyed insofar as they NEVER EXISTED. Others, such as Aryvandaar, did not grow to their height until much later. The influence of the Seldarine over the Fair Folk living outside of Evermeet was sufficiently reduced that events such as the Crown Wars and the Descent of the Drow could occur.

If you follow this explanation, then the correct way to interpret Evermeet: A Novel is that up until the Sundering we have one history, after the Sundering events continue based on an alternate past history. Before the Sundering all Abeir-Toril is hospitable to the Fair Folk; after the Sundering Evermeet is particularly hospitable while the rest of Faerun is less hospitable. And once again, the elves employed magic with unforeseen consequences that radically reshaped the world.

--Eric

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