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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Oct 2006 : 04:56:18
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Eric,
Because, I was using the -24K date as the time of the Sundering and your explaination appears to have the actual continential drift eithor gradual and non-cataclysmic or much earlier in the planet's history than -24K
like Gray, I would like any details on the actual "sundering" of Aber-Toril..if there was one...
so here is how I understand your explaination now (some copy pasting from my last synopsis):
Guided by the Seledrine (sp?) in a "great plains" region of the super-continent a "grand casting tower" is built/raised by the gathering of sun and moon high magi with some wild elf apprentices/acolytes.
The elven high mages began the high magic ritual (epic magic) of Sundering...the magic is focused into the tower and crosses into the Outer Planes where it takes a piece of Arvanador and sends it (basically) to the beginning of time (if all the planets were created at once) where it is cloaked and hidden until the elven gods choose to grant it to the elves. But the magic is barely controlled and it radically alters the Weave, weakening the elves and altering their past as the magic enriching areas are altered or erased by the Sundering casting.
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Although their original intent was to break off a piece of Faerun and create a sanctuary, the effect of the Sundering was far different, augmented and shaped by the Seldarine. In -17,600 DR, the elves actually succeeded in concentrating the Weave enough to pull a piece of Arvandor into the Realms (the reverse of the somewhat more common practice of the Outer Planes absorbing chunks of the Material Plane) during the prehistory of the world (millions of years ago) to serve as their private sanctuary.
In so doing the elves altered the flow of time and altered the history of Faerun. History did not change as much as one might think, as the Seldarine hid the existence of Evermeet from the other races (e.g. the Creator Races). The early elves had myths that Evermeet existed, but its existence wasn't proven in the new timestream until some time after -23,900 DR (date uncertain).
The true cost of the Sundering, which Starleaf perceived with limited understanding in the form of destroyed elven civilizations and deaths, is in the lost possibilities it represented. By concentrating the Weave to such an extent to create Evermeet an extremely hospitable environment, the elves effectively made the rest of Faerun less hospitable to their race. As a result, the elves did not flourish as early as represented in the early chapters of Evermeet. Early civilizations such as Attornash were destroyed insofar as they NEVER EXISTED. Others, such as Aryvandaar, did not grow to their height until much later. The influence of the Seldarine over the Fair Folk living outside of Evermeet was sufficiently reduced that events such as the Crown Wars and the Descent of the Drow could occur.
the paradox I see is this: if Attornash existed before the Sundering casting and their were some elven spellcasters from Attornash - then logically if Attornash disappeared then so did it's elven spellcasters...and if Aryvanadaar's development was stalled due to the rearrangement of the Weave then the elven spellcasters from the "orginal" Aryvanadaar would also not have existed
So if the world (as the world was) of the elves was altered and the history of the elves changed in the ripple effect of the temporal change, then you have the paradox of how did the spellcasters cast the Sundering if the changes they made erased/altered their history...which would have then created the situation of no elves there to cast the Sundering
(thus the "kill your grandmother" paradox, if you go back in time and accidentally kill your grandmother, one of your parents would not have been born thus you [as you are before you went back in time]couldn't have been born thus you couldn't have gone back in time to kill grandma but you did but you couldn't have, etc.  )
Thank you for all your time Eric  |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Iliyan
Acolyte
Croatia
42 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2009 : 09:44:09
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I'm going to find myself guilty of shameless post necromancy.. But, I think it better then starting a new thread. Since this thread should certainly not be allowed to wither and be forgotten. It is so full of amazing and wonderful lore and theory, not to mention the actual greats of the FR writing here.
Ultimately, the reason for the resurrection is a question on my part. Namely this:
Where do you think Atorrnash sank?
I'm asking the question because I'm making an adventure, and I'm simply going to be blunt and disregard that time-space paradox of whether Atorrnash ever existed due to the Sundering. I'm just going to say that it sank.. somewhere.
Now, as a DM I have to come up with a place where to put Atorrnash.. Not necessarily in one piece, but scattered on the sunken shores, below the Shining Sea. How far from the present shore would you place it?
My predicament comes from the fact that I've never seen a map of that age that shows anything south of Tethyr.. Which is kinda weird. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2009 : 13:50:47
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Thanks for resurrecting this thread, because I either missed it the first time, or had completely forgotten it.
I'm much more of the "cataclysmic, immediate, -24K" Sundering camp, and what I find most interesting about this whole discussion is that it stems from one timeline discrepency. All of the sources up to LEoF point to around -24K, and then we have the LEoF number. Ignoring for the moment that Mr. Boyd actually wrote that number, isn't it logical to conclude that the LEoF number is incorrect?
Maybe it's just because I've played a bunch of Legend of the 5 Rings, where the designers specifically set out to include out-right false and somewhat-misleading entries in the official timeline (thanks, Scorpion clan), but I'm used to valuing the timelines in one book against another, weighing them, and then deciding that just maybe in this instance, Khelben's been having fun writing books. I think the circumlocutions that have been generated to explain why two wildly different dates exist are fascinating, but in the end aren't necessary. I think it makes more sense to declare one date ficticious, and leave it at that.
OP: sorry for somewhat derailing (or re-railing) the thread. In answer to your question, I don't have the least idea, but I'm really interested to see what others come up with. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2009 : 19:43:49
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Atornash fell somewhere in the south, I'd place it near the shore, probably Lapaliiya (pearls).
Tough in my alternate Realms when the continents separated the city ended up in Katashaka and is the same place as Qabalrin of Xendrik.
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Iliyan
Acolyte
Croatia
42 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2009 : 20:04:26
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Atorrnash ending up in Katashaka is quite improbable..
I think the main thing I'd need would be it's location before the Sundering. After that I could easily determine it's location after the Sundering.. Since if we take into account the risen land-mass of Evermeet, the sea level wouldn't be raised THAT much drastically.. Perhaps a few meters. It isn't the water rising that destroyed it, but much more probable the cataclysmic damage to that part of the world.
Furthermore, I was debating with a friend should the city itself be actually underwater, or should I put it under the sea floor. In the Underdark below the Shining Sea. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2009 : 08:29:08
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Don't know why, always pictured it buried on some beach, Planet of the Apes style. Not a fan of playing in the Underdark.
In 20000 years there were so many geological changes, you can't really go wrong picking the place. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6670 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2009 : 11:18:15
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I distinctly remember asking for the Sundering date to pre-date the Cormanthyr timeline when LEoF was developed but Rich Baker thought otherwise. Eric's "backwards and forwards through the mists of time" thingy was his attempt to salvage the inconsistency.
My responses in 2006 were coloured by my knowledge that the FR product line was still a happening thing, and I wasn't going to rock the company boat. Now that the boat has been hauled into drydock, it doesn't seem to matter much anymore.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2010 : 09:08:15
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Nice Scroll... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 10:32:26
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This scroll is very nice indeed... And I was trying to discover the time of the Sundering because the unofficial Bladesinger lore puts that Bladesong started some time just after the Sundering.
Well, the many things are difficult to handle in this situation, but the one that caught my attention is the idea that civilizations destroyed by the Sundering would be considered as they never existed, like Atorrnash. Is it was so, how could Danilo find the information to build his account of elven history? 
About the Bladesong, maybe it could just be created later... Althought I think it could be created around - 24k anyway, when the Dragon Age ended and the elves started gathering in larger communities. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 08 Nov 2012 14:25:53 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 14:22:03
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I definitely think bladesong didn't come along until the Golden Age of the elves (the First Flowering, before the Crown Wars). Like any art form it would need at least some civilization and excess time away from bare survival, to be developed and practiced.
Also, think of how long it would have taken to be invented. We're talking about a combat form that in its current, invented and perfected form takes a CENTURY to learn. And that's when you're being trained by existing masters. It likely took thousands of years to fully develop. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 16:26:45
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| This thread is cool because it shows that even the lorelords of the Realms disagree from time to time. :-) |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 05:58:13
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| *scratches head* wow, elves are my favorite races, yet this scroll just proves how ignorant I am when it comes to their history. It's been several years since I've read Evermeet, and I have the Grand History of the Realms, along with a couple other elven source books, but wow...go me hehe. Anyway, it makes me wonder what the upcoming Sundering will mean for civilizations, both elven and non... |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 14:26:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I definitely think bladesong didn't come along until the Golden Age of the elves (the First Flowering, before the Crown Wars). Like any art form it would need at least some civilization and excess time away from bare survival, to be developed and practiced.
Also, think of how long it would have taken to be invented. We're talking about a combat form that in its current, invented and perfected form takes a CENTURY to learn. And that's when you're being trained by existing masters. It likely took thousands of years to fully develop.
I very much agree with this idea, it is very good indeed. Thank you, Hoondatha!  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 16:21:32
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Yeah, this whole Sundering thing is what initially gave birth to my theories on Elven High Magic - that it is so incredibly powerful because it taps into time and probabilities (similar to the Scarlet Witch's powers). The Elves didn't create the Sundering that created Evermeet, they tapped into the Ao-generated event and molded a small piece of it to fit with their own desires (and probably destroyed Tintageer as a byproduct of the process... there is always a heavy cost to using time-altering magics). Thus, they reached back into the past, to create Evermeet when and where they needed it. When the Spellplague occurred, Evermeet 'snapped-back' to where it should have been all along... it was reflection of Tintageer that got pulled into the Prime by their High Magic.
The Spellplague may have been a good way to restore other Elf-driven catastrophes and geographic changes. Then again, it is still supposed to be on-going throughout much of post-3e, so it could still be a great way to 'restore' Toril to its former (Edwardian?) glory.
I think there also may be some sort of connection between the Sharn and Pharimm, and this type of probability magic, but I haven't gotten the details figured out yet. Something creates a magical improbability, then the phaerimm show up (like sharks in a feeding frenzy), and then sharn show-up (and/or are created) to fix the problem and restore balance. Phaerimm are like a virus to a sick world (they attack its magical field), and Sharn are like antibodies. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 01:21:05
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Since I just got done reading Evermeet, I have to say that my gut instinct was that Evermeet could very well be Tintageer somehow. It just struck me that when it was being destroyed how it was magically induced destruction. So, this would also make sense with Evermeet "snapping back" from the Spellplague.
I am actually becoming facinated with the Sharn. Especially once I learned that some people volunteer to become Sharn. The mystery around them is too intriguing. :D |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 10:44:07
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| That's what I've thought, time is weird in Faerie, and the Sundering worked backwards in time. It would be ironic if the creation of Evermeet destroyed Tintageer. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 15:22:36
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Well, as Quale said, time works very different in the Feywild. Also, if I am correct about Elven High Magic (tapping into the timestream to achieve results using the 'Butterfly Effect'), then that means the Elven ritual found a point in time when the 'veil between the worlds' was in-flux (anytime there is magical chaos) and steered a part of the chaos to bring about a specific planer shift in geography.
Like what happened when the Spellplague hit, when parts of Abeir (and perhaps other worlds/planes) got swapped with Toril, except they were able to control a part of it so that it wouldn't be so random. According to Brian James (and others), this is not a Spellplague-specific phenomena; it happens whenever Realmspace is in magical turmoil (usually when the goddess of magic dies). It is also a common theme in the planes - the best known 'realms-swapping' region is Ravenloft, but we also have Faerie (parts of which appear every so often in the material world) and the Border Towns on the Great Ring.
I think there is some sort of self-correcting mechanism in the universe, and when the universe detects something is not in the right place, it gets shunted where it thinks it ought to go... which isn't always correct. This is kinda like how the afterlife works - you go to the plane you are closest aligned with - except it can effect entire geographic areas, if nearly everyone within that region conforms to the other planes attributes. During times of chaos, the program gets messed up, and not everything winds up where it is supposed to go.
There are probably several factors that come into play when this happens, which would include electromagnetic and quantum signatures, and also alignment (morality and predisposition). All the Elves have to do is somehow 'mask' something to appear as something else (when the planes are in flux) and it creates the situation they desire. Thus, High Magic has the potential to become the fantasy equivalent of a nuclear bomb; think how the Dark Disaster (to Miyeritar) happened - they were basically 'erased'. This is why it also needs a helping-hand from the divine, because of all the forces at work - mortals could never achieve highly specific results (using the Butterfly effect) without that sort of godly prescience guiding it. High Magic becomes the ultimate gambit - you can achieve whatever you want, but you have no idea what you will lose in the bargain to get the desired result.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Nov 2012 15:26:22 |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 23:56:22
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I think you both covered my idea well. :D The High Magic ritual moved through the whibly wobly timey whimey stream and pulled Evermeet from Arvandor/Fairie, which could have pulled Tintageer from there...and thereby destroying it in that moment and pulling it into the Realms time. Or at least the perceived destruction of it. ;)
Of course, this is all just musings. And of course, I read Evermeet after the Sundering was announced and I might be influenced by that. I admit it. I like the possibility.
Time is not a straight line, especially when you blend in other planes/dimensions. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2436 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2012 : 04:17:02
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| "There were no big magic screw-ups and destroyed villages, it's just a... uh... timey-wimei side effect!", aside of the whole time travel part, feels like continued whitewashing of elves. Though it's expectable in-universe, obviously. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 01:57:19
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Hold on, from what I am gleaning there's TWO histories to Faerun? Pre and Post Sundering? Does this affect every race as well?
What the flying *%^) !?!?!
As if the Marvel Universe wasn't already terrible with their "alternate everything" events.
So the FR designers find THIS level of alternate reality ok, but refuse to do an "alternate reality FUTURE" concerning the Spellplague? As in, you have your Toril post-Spellplague and a Toril with a prevention of the Spellplague. That's not ok but this Sundering stuff is?
Way to go for consistency yet again. Sorry to sound sour but it really does leave a bad taste in my mouth concerning FR designers.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 06:20:28
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| I may not fully understand your question, so if I sound snide I apologize, but there would have to be a pre-Sundering history. Evermeet is very old, to be sure, but it wasn't there in the beginning. This doesn't mean there are two histories of Faerun. I think people are just speculating on the events. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Topic |
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Historical Canon Dates and the Early Elven Empires
How?