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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 03:19:48
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quote:
Originally posted by seankreynolds
{and little utility to those fans who just buy the products for the lore - because there wasn't all that much of that either.}
Honestly, I could care less about the fans who just buy the books for the lore. I'm a game designer. I write books for the D&D GAME so people can play the GAME. There may be people out there who buy FR books to light fires or prop up table legs or on the toilet ... I'm not going to change how I write a GAME book to suit their interests.
With respect... A lot of us buy the books, for the lore that is contained in them, so that it can be used in our games. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 03:22:01
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| Folks, we really should get back to discussing the sourcebook. It's what the thread is about... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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seankreynolds
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
91 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 03:25:05
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{With respect... A lot of us buy the books, for the lore that is contained in them, so that it can be used in our games.}
Sure ... but my interpretation of what he meant was "people who buy the books to read the lore but never actually play the game." And that's what I'm referring to. |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 04:24:16
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quote:
Originally posted by seankreynolds
Honestly, I could care less about the fans who just buy the books for the lore. I'm a game designer. I write books for the D&D GAME so people can play the GAME. There may be people out there who buy FR books to light fires or prop up table legs or on the toilet ... I'm not going to change how I write a GAME book to suit their interests.
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Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Darrin Drader
Forgotten Realms Designer
16 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 04:52:01
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I think its also unfair to really blame Rich Baker for things, just as it would be unfair to blame Peter Archer, who was in charge of novels at the time. Rich is a game developer. In other words, his job is to go over the rules content with a fine-toothed comb to make sure that the new rules work well with the rest of the game. I could be wrong, but I would imagine that Mysteries of the Moonsea probably didn't merit much time due to the fact that there is no (0%) new rules content in the book. It's also entirely possible that the novels and the R&D department never got together to realize that there would be crossover on projects that were in development concurrently. It's also possible that Rich did notice that the book didn't compliment the novels he was working on very well, but it may have been too late to do anything about it by the time he caught it.
The problem, from my perspective, being someone who has worked for WotC more recently that Sean, is that there is no one whose job it is to sit there and be a content manager for campaign setting cannon. I know that Rich does his level best to do his part when he's able to, and so does James Wyatt, and they are the two most knowledgable Realmslore guys on staff right now, but they also have their own jobs to attend to, which sadly don't often overlap with the Realms.
Now, that isn't to say that the novels department and RPG R&D never try to coordinate. When I was working on Serpent Kingdoms, both the novels side and R&D realized that we were both working on similar material - so we communicated on what's in the novels that might affect the book. As it turned out in that case, the answer was nothing.
The bottom line here is that there are people, including Rich and James, who try to stick their noses into other people's affairs to help keep one of their favorite game worlds straight. Unfortunately they can't do that all the time, and frankly, WotC isn't given a budget big enough to keep one person on staff full time just to manage continuity. Because of the company's configuration, these kinds of issues have happened in the past and they will continue to happen from time to time in the future, despite the best intentions of everyone involved.
Would I like it if things worked differently? Absolutely, but for now the reality is that the game line is pretty much consistent with the game line and the novels line is pretty much consistent with the novels line. |
Edited by - Darrin Drader on 04 Jul 2006 05:06:09 |
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Brenigin
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
117 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 07:11:46
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| I appreciate your comments Darin. A few too many people on these boards (heck, the internet in general) forget that their FR material is produced in a real-world business environment, where pleasing all the people all the time is impossible. They moan more than my clients in the advertising world... |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 07:50:53
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You expect people not to say something when they don't get what they want, and when there's no other alternative? (I.E.: No other source of canon Realms lore/mecchanics.)
Not meaning to be rude, but it's just a pretty much psychological assumption that when a human does not enjoy something, he/she will try to avoid it. And in America, that tends to include complaining. (Oddly enough, I almost never complain in real life, myself. I guess I'm just meaner on message boards or something.)
Though, I guess they don't have a TOTALY monopoly, since we get so much wonderful lore from Ed here. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 04 Jul 2006 08:00:36 |
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monch9
Seeker
Poland
67 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 08:47:55
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Regarding the Moonsea issue, here's the Rich Baker explanation from the Book Club Forums (in case you didn't see it). Reality is, WOTC is a business, not enough people to oversee things leads to cracks - understandable. So for me (whether as DM's, Novel readers, or supplement readers) just wing it and enjoy. Because I don't have a billion dollar account to buy WOTC and make sure all the proper people are in place.
Monch
Quote :
Yeah, I was disappointed with that too. I do not directly oversee the creation of Realms products these days (I did a couple of years back), so I was not involved in the Moonsea outlining or design process. I did not realize that it was pretty much pre-Last Mythal until Moonsea was in galleys (typesetting), at which point it was too late to do anything other than make sure that we put the right date in the Introduction.
Now, to be fair, I *could* have insisted on taking a close look at the sourcebook or the outline early on in the process. I didn't for two reasons: One, I'm trying to not creatively direct the Realms these days, because that isn't my job description any more and I need to give other folks plenty of room to be creative; and two, I was lazy and didn't make a point of checking on Moonsea because I had lots of other stuff on my plate. Somewhere between me, the creative director, the freelance designers, or our Books people we ought to have made sure we were on the same page.
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Edited by - monch9 on 07 Jul 2006 12:36:28 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 09:33:40
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Although I haven't acquired MotM yet (there are about 40+ books I wanna read at the moment, plus my own writing) I wanna pipe in my 2 cents:
Why the bloody hell are you pissing and moaning about the product? I have to agree with SKR, if it sells most people like it. Everyone who has a FLGS somewhere nearby or a suitable bookstore has the option of looking through the product before purchase, I do. WOTC is a business, if it weren't for them TSR and D&D would prolly have joined the graveyard like so many other companies who produced good games.
We, who discuss the lore so deeply, are in the minority, face it we are, otherwise we'd have far more people here and far more vivid discussions, because after all, official lore is altered the moment we DMs implement it into our campaign, unless you can tell me one single bloody point where official lore mentions the names of your player characters.
So unless you and your players replay the novels and use the "official" characters the campaign already deviates from official lore.
As for the whining about the change of the way people play... whiskey tango foxtrot! If you don't like the way your group plays change players, adapt, or quit. When I look back to when I began playing, some two decades ago, you know how I began playing? There was hacking and some slashing, not much more. Why you may wonder? Because I was some 14 or 15 years old, GMed my younger sister and her friend most of the time and because, frankly how the bloody hell should I have known better?
I'll not go goth anytime soon, so VTM and its offsprings are kinda out of the question for me. Deep immersion can take many different shapes and forms, and most of the time you still do not need craploads of lore to make a fun adventure. Hell, if all my GMs would've just played by the rules/book some of the best role-playing experiences I ever had would have gone down the drain. Your game is what YOU make of it!!!
If you don't like a book don't buy it, no one is bloody forcing you!
I for one will eventually check out MotM, maybe I can get some ideas out of it. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
Edited by - Kuje on 04 Jul 2006 15:50:59 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 15:51:23
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| That's enough on the attacks people. Alaundo already gave one warning. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Mkhaiwati
Learned Scribe
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 16:16:08
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quote:
Folks, we really should get back to discussing the sourcebook. It's what the thread is about...
I will try again.
Overall, I like the MotM and it will be useful in my campaigns. There is some lore and some good adventure hooks, even if I don't do the grand adventure tie-in included within the tome. It does spark ideas on what I could do, in other places.
What I see to be going on within this thread is that it isn't as useful as it could be. This has nothing to do with the designers but more with WotC and the organization/"new layout" of the product. In the spirit of keeping the tone civil, I will attempt to keep an eye on how I phrase my words.
Someone already said in this thread that when trying to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one. Not completely accurate, I think some are very pleased, but generally MotM tried to do too much and generally disappointed many fans. It seems to be a combination of sourcebook and adventure book, and didn't really go over well with the community.
In my case, what I really wanted was a sourcebook with a few hooks and adventure seeds within, as was done with Silver Marches and other books. There hasn't been much info with 3e concerning many areas of the Realms, and there have been many changes in the setting since then. Look at the Old Empires for a good example. The only stuff we have is the old 2e accessory, the FRCS, and whatever bits are included from Powers of Faerun, Races, Faiths, etc. If the same process is applied to the Old Empires as was done to MotM, what would happen would be a section on Skuld, Messemprar, Unthalass, and Cimbar, with a major adventure interwoven between them. In my opinion, it would be a major crime if that were to happen because of what would be left out of the book.
After MotM, I am apprehensive concerning the Cormyr book due to come out for this reason. I like campaigning there, but would like a book concerning the entire region, just not a few, select locations there. And Cormyr has had it's share of trouble. The devastation wrought by the Devil Dragon should be covered as the towns rebuild, but if it doesn't touch on that, I will be severly disappointed.
An idea on improvement is to chalk MotM format up to a loss. This has nothing to do with the designers, who did an excellent job working with the format, but the format just doesn't work for me. A format similar to the previous sourcebooks would be great, perhaps with an adventure book similar to Sons of Gruumsh, but with the adventure path contained within, following a few months later. This way people would get their sourcebook and their adventures, without sacrificing material for space to make everything fit. I would buy both books for different reasons. I just don't feel that a combination of the two as was done here works, as neither is covered as well as could be done seperately.
Mkhaiwati |
"Behold the work of the old... let your heritage not be lost but bequeath it as a memory, treasure and blessing... Gather the lost and the hidden and preserve it for thy children."
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail." OotS #367 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 00:43:24
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I'm kind of disecting this one section at a time. I just finished up the Melvaunt section, and part of what I was doing when I did this was to go back to all the other references to Melvaunt and Thar, which is related to the adventures in the section.
We actually got more information on Melvaunt here than we have previously, and not only was it consistant with the other Realmslore, but we got updated information on what has been going on. Back in the FRCS it was mentioned that Halmuth Bruil was the general of the city, without any mention of Abarel Stendale, and in this section we actually got some information on what happened there and Abarel's current (Lordless) situation.
The one thing that didn't get mentioned were some of the lesser houses (i.e. the ones that don't have the lion's share of the lordships in the city) that were mentioned in Sons of Grummsh.
I liked the "Villains of Melvaunt" section for the most part, but since they weren't used directly in the adventures, I'm not sure they had to be completely statted up. Forjia Chase really didn't strike me as that interesting either, but I really liked Corkin (a bard that works as an information broker while working as a blacksmith . . . especially in a city of smiths, good idea).
I really liked Theoderus as well, but the only thing that didn't strike me quite right is where the heck is the dwarven wizard school, and how did the Thayans get an agent into it? I guess I had already kind of presupposed that Shield dwarves were less likely to use arcane magic, and would not consider its pursuit particularly a good thing, though it might be a peculiarity specific to the settlement Theoderus was raised in, which makes me wonder where he was raised all over again. Still, I like having a brooding dwarven wizard enchanting weapons and shipping them out, and I really liked the layout of his house.
The Thar information was interesting. I have liked Thar for quite a while, and I liked the thought of an organized and powerful ogre kingdom. It was good to see the Vorbyx comments from the FRCS fleshed out some. I liked the idea of the hammer being a key for the portals that Vorbyx had set up, and even if you play through the adventures, there are a lot of plot hooks set in place with this, from the other portals, to what Vorbyx really was, and perhaps even if Vorbyx stayed dead (not many creatures write warnings in false tombs about that fact that the place is a false tomb unless they are either dead or have faked their deaths).
I do wonder about the timeline in Thar now though. We know that last official Tharkul was deposed 90 years ago or so, and we know from Sons of Grummsh that an orc king was around to rule in Xul-Jarak about 400 years ago. I was wondering if this orc kingdom came about separate from the ogres, or if this was one of the kingdoms that Vorbyx absorbed when he consolidated Thar under his rule. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 03:09:00
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
I guess I'm just meaner on message boards or something.
You and me both, buddy.  |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2006 : 11:02:07
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Now that I'm back, I've managed to take a quick look through the copy that was waiting for me upon my return to Perth.
As it is... I've only read the lore section for Mulmaster so far. It's a nice update... though I haven't worked my way through the quests yet.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2006 : 12:12:43
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| I skimmed through the book yesterday, I like it. Might buy it eventually. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Mr. Wilson
Seeker
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2006 : 06:57:12
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Mr. Reynold's wrote:
"And if you have the time to do that, that is very excellent for you. Most people don't have that sort of time any more, at least not once they're out of college, get a full-time job, and start having kids."
I was going to answer Mr. Reynold's response to my statement in depth, but I can't seem to put it to words what I want to say without coming off as either whiney, angry, or preachy, when I'm none of the above. So, instead, I'll simply say I'm sorry you feel that way.
Maybe I'm just that out of touch with mainstream geekdom. Wouldn't be the first time.
My review of the book is the same as it was. Some good stuff spread throughout the book (especially at the beginning of each chapter), although as a whole as I felt like I was painting-by-numbers or reading a choose your own adventure book. Had I known that designers actually were advocating to notbuy FR material, perhaps I would have passed on it.
Here's to hoping for more books like LEoF. |
"I've got a plan..."- Dan
"Nothing good has ever come after those four words." - Jesse |
Edited by - Mr. Wilson on 09 Jul 2006 06:58:38 |
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Darrin Drader
Forgotten Realms Designer
16 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 00:28:49
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Just an update for interested parties, the web enhancement for Mysteries of the Moonsea has been completed and will be turned into WotC after the other freelancers on the book have had a chance to look at it. Regarding the suggestions I received earlier in this thread, I'd like to thank everyone who came up with stuff. Some suggestions were used, some were not.
I know it takes WotC a while to get this stuff through editing and cartography, so it will probably still be a couple months before this appears on the website. Some material was taken from the 2E Moonsea supplement and Ruins of Adventure, while a lot of material is completely original. Also, just so you know, the original work was commissioned at 10,000 words, which is more than twice as long as the average web enhancement. The actual length of the document I put together was over 16,000 words. That's more than half of one of the chapters that appeared in the book. In other words, I put some extra work in on this that I didn't have to. I hope that it will be well received when it's released. |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 01:10:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Darrin Drader
Just an update for interested parties, the web enhancement for Mysteries of the Moonsea has been completed and will be turned into WotC after the other freelancers on the book have had a chance to look at it. Regarding the suggestions I received earlier in this thread, I'd like to thank everyone who came up with stuff. Some suggestions were used, some were not.
I know it takes WotC a while to get this stuff through editing and cartography, so it will probably still be a couple months before this appears on the website. Some material was taken from the 2E Moonsea supplement and Ruins of Adventure, while a lot of material is completely original. Also, just so you know, the original work was commissioned at 10,000 words, which is more than twice as long as the average web enhancement. The actual length of the document I put together was over 16,000 words. That's more than half of one of the chapters that appeared in the book. In other words, I put some extra work in on this that I didn't have to. I hope that it will be well received when it's released.
D. Drader, a big THANKS in advance. I appreciate your dedication and I am looking forward to seeing your work on the WOTC-website. |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 04:33:48
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| Thanks Darrin . . . its great to see someone with the dedication to put in this amount of extra work, and I look forward to reading it. |
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Darrin Drader
Forgotten Realms Designer
16 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 05:36:03
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Thanks Darrin . . . its great to see someone with the dedication to put in this amount of extra work, and I look forward to reading it.
Well, I have a definite fondness for Phlan since it was the location I first ran in the Realms. For me this was much more a labor of love than most projects I work on. It was important to me to make updates and interpretations to existing material so that the city will be a worthwhile place in which a DM can easily place a campaign or two within the current timeline. |
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Wil_Upchurch
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 07:12:33
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PHLAN IS DEAD!
LONG LIVE PHLAN! |
Wil Upchurch
15th-Level Freelancer
magewebmaster@yahoo.com |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 07:27:44
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| I think I know what would have helped Mysteries of the Moonsea be a better product. If half of the character stats were released in a web enhancement, and the rest of those pages were filled with the stated spells, new feats, and more lore we've expected. I liked the campaign sections and I really liked seeing more detailed NPC stats, it's just the book had too much of that stuff and not enough source material, you basically need the original AD&D books for any of the fluff that was left out. I dunno. Too much crunch this time and not enough fluff. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Dhomal
Senior Scribe
USA
565 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 00:41:58
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Hello-
Well - i finished reading this last night.
Overall - I liked it. Was it perfect? No - but little is these days. LOL
What I can say I did like a LOT was some of the aspects that showed how to connect seemingly dis-related adventures. For me - it has always been a bit of a challenge to connect adventures without it becoming a giant railroad campaign. :)
I also particularly liked the beholder lair. I though several parts of it were just great, and clever!
As for the level of 'crunch' vs. 'fluff' - its hard to say. Certainly - the crunch we have this time is probably to many - more preferable than the 'new feats, new spells' line of crunch. I did tend to enjoy a lot of the fluff that was present.
Overall - I liked it - and am happy with my purchase.
Dhomal |
I am collecting the D&D Minis. I would be more than willing to trade with people. You can send me a PM here with your email listed - and I can send you my minis list. Thanks!
Successfully traded with Xysma! |
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David E
Seeker
USA
55 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 08:33:38
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Hi guys - I've been a lurker on these forums for a while now, but this is my first time posting. Just wanted to give my thoughts on the very controversial MotM.
I'm torn by everything I've been reading. While I myself fall in the category of a FR fan who wished that a greater proportion of the text had been devoted to actually describing the Moonsea region, I can completely sympathize with the busier gamers who just want something they can drop right into their campaign with little work on their part.
Given the vast amount of Dungeons & Dragons experience shared by posters on these boards, however, I think my problem may not by shared by many people. I almost never get to actually play D&D - none of my friends are interested and I'm not familiar with the ways to get in touch with those who do play (plus, going to college makes it a little bit difficult). What's more, I didn't follow D&D or the Forgotten Realms during 2nd edition, when most of the information on the Forgotten Realms was published. As such, I'm pretty reliant on new FR products to keep feeding my imagination about the fantasy world we all love.
That being said, MotM didn't really give me as much information about this notorious region of the realms as I had hoped. Like I said before, I completely understand that the purpose of this product is to give DMs a set of adventures to run in and around the Moonsea. However, if this book is going to be the only 3rd edition coverage of the Moonsea, I'm pretty disappointed. I loved how previous supplements, such as the Silver Marches and the FRCS, managed to incorporate tons of adventure ideas in the regional information itself. Granted, this puts a greater burden on the DM's shoulders, but it still gets the brain juices flowing.
But it seems as if I'm in the minority on this one. If Mysteries of the Moonsea represents the new format of FR products, it looks like my position in the gaming community has, for the first time, shifted into the "small but vocal minority that wants the products to go back to the way they were" category. It's a weird feeling.
Sorry for the long post. |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 09:29:57
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First and foremost a warm and friendly welcome, David E!
May Our Lady of the Forest smile upon thee and may the great Lord of Knowlegde and Binder of what is Known always grant thou His blessings.
To your post - I have never seen it from your point of view. Being a fairly old gamer with excess to some of the older publishings I never thought of that, but of course, especially the "new" gamers have a great need of the lore. Therefore, I absolutely understand your disappointment in this product. Lets keep the fingers crossed, for new gamers such as you as well as and for the old ones, as we share the same hunger for lore, that MotM was the only book of such design!
Ergdusch
Edit -
This does not mean that I am absolutely unsatisfied with the whole book, just its limited content of lore.
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"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 11 Jul 2006 12:37:39 |
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Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe
341 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 13:44:55
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| David E. If you are interested there are a few 2nd Edition books such The Moonsea that can be gotten for fairly cheap if you look around. I haven't purchased Mysteries of Moonsea yet, but I am also one of the ones who would prefer a more detailed look at the region in question. So I may just try and get the 2nd Edition book above instead of the new one. |
And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
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Thomas M. Reid
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
334 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 19:20:57
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Thought I'd try to answer those questions that need answering in my section:
quote:
Originally posted by BobROE
Zhentil Keep:
Sinister Inn - Room 3 the following is a map of the room
xccx
xccxxx
xxxx
Each letter is a 5ft square. The PCs are in the c squares which is a 10 by 10 foot cage, and in the other 8 squares there are 2 humans and 4 ogres. How, I'm not sure. Also it says a grate on the cage is marked on the map, but nothing is marked.
Yeah, that's too many ogres, but when I wrote that, A) I forgot that they take up 4 squares, and B) I didn't intend for all four of the ogres to be IN the room. Some of them are supposed to be in other areas of that adventure. Technically, they can squeeze into the narrow areas (and one should be standing on top of the cage), but overall, that was a goof on my part.
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The Temple of Bane - Room 3, I wish that designers would stop referencing creatures in books that have been since reprinted and updated in newer books (the direguard is in LEoF).
Yes, but LEoF is not considered one of those FR products that everyone is going to have. The updated version would be better, but MoF is the book we designers are told to assume you have when we're working.
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Lost Temple - There's no mention of if the stairs from room 2 and room 3 is set or not, and also if the stairs aren't active if there's anyway to activate them from room 3. And if the stairs aren't active how much weight is needed to activate them.
That description of how the thing worked was more for flavor than anything. I figured it was obvious from the map that the stairs are down. Sorry for the confusion.
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Dragons' Lair - no areas c, d, or e are marked on the map.
This is purely a WotC cartography mistake. My original had them, and they are as follows: c) the pool of water; d) the dry plateau in the middle of the "lake" of lava; e) the niche behind the lavafall on the NNE side of Area 3.
Finally, I just want to pitch this out to everyone who's been discussing whether this product "works" or not. MotM was an experiement. WotC wanted to try something new. I can't speak for the full thought process behind the design paradigm, but it was the company's intention to see how this structure was received. Obviously, some people like it and some don't, and that's ok. As a designer, there are things about the layout that I like and don't like. Whether or not they try it again will depend on A) sales figures and B) customer feedback. So vote with your wallet and send in your customer service card (or do a feedback thingie on the website).
Also, the decision to put the product out this way was delayed quite a bit, so that by the time the approvals came through, it was a rushed affair. The conflict between Rich's novels and this product are in part due to that delay; there simply wasn't an opportunity to get every set of eyes on it that probably should have looked at it. However, for those of you who are truly incensed by such business behavior, I can tell you that the company has shuffled things around a bit so that there is more cross-deparmental cooperation between Books and Games. That's not to say that continuity gaffes are a thing of the past, but hopefully, they will be fewer and further between.
Thomas |
"A knight is not truly virtuous, only truly resolved to be so."
www.thomasmreid.com |
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Thomas M. Reid
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
334 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 19:31:32
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Oh, a couple more quick responses.
1) Someone fussed that you can't progress through these adventures one after the other and gain enough experience points to meet the EL requirements. That is true. It was never supposed to be the sole thing you were doing while in the Moonsea. Whether or not that fact got conveyed in the front matter, I don't know offhand. But it is assumed that your characters can go and do other things in between some of the encounters. Those CRs and ELs were specified in the contract, so that's the level we wrote them at.
2) Please keep in mind that we were limited to about 2k words per adventure and, as you go higher in levels, it becomes more difficult to explain all the possibilities and permutations of high-EL monsters. Some of the information that "it would have been nice to have" just wasn't feasible -- like what the beholders might be doing if they weren't in their lair, for example.
Thomas |
"A knight is not truly virtuous, only truly resolved to be so."
www.thomasmreid.com |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 21:03:48
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| Thomas, thanks for the insight. Personally, I like the book, it was an interesting experiment. I think the idea was a good one, you get the best of both worlds. You get some adventures, which many of us clamor for constantly, and you also get lore, which we all love. I have always loved seeing NPCs statted out ever since the Heroes' and Villians' Lorebooks, so that was fun for me as well. Could this product have been better? Sure it could have. Do I hope they try this format again? Yes, I think the format deserves a second chance. |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
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Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 01:00:18
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In wading through this thread, the one thing that struck me almost immediately was how MoM would have been received so much better if it had followed a 'standard' regional sourcebook on The Moonsea. That way you've got the setting and the adventure arc and they both support each other. Maybe WotC should consider that as a 'business/design model'.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Mysteries of Moonsea?!?
