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Amon The Pole
Acolyte
Poland
6 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 12:26:21
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If Sun, Moon and Star elves are now Eladrins and Wild and Forest elves are "elves" so what about half - moon and half sun elves? (like Arlyn Moon Blade).
In PHB are only halfelves who are children of humans and elves (so wild and forest elves).
PS sorry for my English
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 18:24:45
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Not that this is an official answer or anything, but it seems to me that "eladrin" are just a sort of elf (the FRPG says the term is synonymous with silver/moon elves ["the most common eladrin"] and gold/sun elves [rarer], as well as mithral /star elves), so the children of humans and "eladrin" are equally half-elves as the children of humans and "elves."
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Amon The Pole
Acolyte
Poland
6 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 14:52:40
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Great thanks for quick answer.
I think the same about halfelves.I have doubt because halfelves have specific racial traits - Dual Heritage. They can take both human and elf special feats. In FR its mean then, they can take human and elf (so Wild or Forest elf) feats. But if we have "f - eladrin like half - moon elf" we can take only human feats (because "elf" racial feats are wild/forest elves racial feats only).
If I good understand mechanic intention this feat's chose for half-elves determinate what this half elf is more - elf or human. If he take more elf feats he is more elf (maybe he grow up in elf family).
In FR 4e only Half - wild/forest elves can chose elves feats, because sun or moon elves seats will be eladrins feats.
So FR half moon elf can be only more human than elf (or stay to be simply half elf).
Some halfelves in Faerun are so much elvish than they can use moon blades like Arlyn or halfelf female from novel in Relams of Elves (it was Bladesinger lesson novel if I good remember). If they are half sun/moon they should by by have the same rights to take elves (eladrins) feats.
But in mechanics of the system they can't
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 15:02:14
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That is a very good point. It's been said that the sun/moon elves were 'always' eladrin, just started to call themselves that again after the Spellplague. I think you should forward this on to the Wizards FAQ group to get some official answers. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 15:24:03
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While you're waiting for an official answer, you might go with one of these explanations:
1) "Elf" blood is *lesser* than "eladrin" blood, and so when you mingle humans with eladrin, you get abilities more in line with those of an "elf." This works well for half-elves descended from other half-elves . . . over time, the more esoteric eladrin abilities vanish, replaced by a more down-to-earth woodsy skillset. (That answer's not very convincing!)
2) House-rule it so that half-elves can take eladrin feats as well (though this might be too powerful for your game). You could end up with a half-elf with both elf and eladrin feats, but this represents a half-elf who comes from both eladrin and elves, and is exploring his/her blood heritage to its fullest extent.
3) House-rule it so that half-elves have to *choose* which sort of fey parentage they have (subject to DM approval, if it's somehow relevant--i.e., if your half-elf is supposed to be the son of a human and an eladrin, it wouldn't make sense for him to take elf feats), which determines which feat set they can use. Hence, they are either half-*elves* (can take elf and human feats) or half-*eladrin* (can take eladrin and human feats), whilst still being "half-elves."
My own personal inclination is to do #2, saying that all half-elves are descended from the same fey stock as both elves and eladrin and can manifest any and all feats of either race. As recently as a hundred years ago, elves and eladrin were the same race--they've just grown farther apart in recent decades, thanks to an influx from the feywild. Elves and eladrin as separate races are more focused culturally, so their abilities are set, but their half-elf offspring are fundamentally explorers of their elven heritage.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2008 : 22:02:13
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My best advice to you - ignore the 4e nomencalture - it just confuses the heck out of everything.
If you are running a Moon, Sun, or Star Elf use the 4e Eladrin stats, and if you are running any other kind of Elf, use the 'Elf' stats.
But for Heaven's sake, don't actually use the word 'Eladrin'. 
It serves no purpose IG other then to cause confusion to what was once an easily-understandable setting (how does that saying go? "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bu...."). 
As far as I can tell, in 4e the term 'Eladrin' is just the name of the racial grouping that ALL of that particular branch of the Fey refer to themselves as. In fact, its probably the actual Fey word for their creations, and various groups either refer to themselves that way or come up with their own distinctions (which is exactly what happened on most worlds outside of the Feywild). Its an 'umbrella' term, and could just as easily be applied to the other Elves in the setting, or the group of Outsiders that used to proudly bear that appelation.
It has never been used in FR, and it is a core term, and the only people in FR who might use it IG are the Elves of Evermeet who have now 'gone home', or perhaps the people of Returned Abeir (who may have always refered to the Elvish derivations thusly). So if you are not playing anwhere other then Faerūn proper, just pretend 'Eladrin' doesn't exist and the world will be a better place. 
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Nov 2008 22:04:36 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2008 : 06:25:34
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I agree with you on the use of the term Eladrin, MT.
But the difficulty is the game mechanics of half-elfs from Eladrin parentage now. When WotC made it 'canon' that Sun/Moon/Star elves were Eladrin, they basically made it impossible for the players to play half-elves of that grouping. Granted, it's been talked about before for other races (half-dwarves, half-gnomes, etc.), but they weren't core races. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2008 : 08:38:09
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IIRC, the most 'official' response I have heard to this question over at WotC was that the player decides which parent his character takes after more, and then use the stats from that race. You can call it a half-Elf, and it may look like a half-Elf, but on paper it's either a human or an Elf, plain and simple.
That, of course, only goes for those of Half-Elv.. errr... Eladrin stock. There are already rules in place for the regular half-Elves (and you could just use those stats as well for your Eladrin crossbreed).
I suppose the idea is that it is VERY rare for an Eladrin to breed with 'lesser races', and when they do, there blood either becomes ascendent (and the child is very close to a full Eladrin), or it becomes recessive, and the child is closer to a human (with a 'fey look' about them). Ergo, you really don't need rules for this rare event (that is part of 4e's mentality - you only need rules for things you will use a lot). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2008 : 18:37:09
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I was wondering about that, thanks. I have the core rulebooks, and I remember the "half-elf" section pretty much implying that half-elves are half-elves, not half-eladin.
This is the type of thing that can easily be tweaked as desired, though. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Genis
Learned Scribe
USA
226 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2008 : 00:08:56
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| holy schnickerdoodle...I had no idea there was a difference between sun moon and star elves...and the other...elves...wtf is an Eladrin...and ah!!!! Is there something I can read about the history of all the races...This is a bad comparission but like in DL there is a serious about how the different factions of elves got started on Kryyn...is there a similar series in FR about the history and whatnot of elves and the different kinds etc....that would better explain whatever in the nine hells you people are talking about? :D |
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Amon The Pole
Acolyte
Poland
6 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2008 : 07:24:53
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Genis-> IMHO You may read for example "Evermeet: Island of elves" by Elaine Cunningham
about word eladrin I think it is now quite popular name of sun/moon elves. Restored Faerie/Feywilld is a not empty place and a lot of eladrin lived there before Spellplague and living there now. Many of this folk was migrate to faerun in last 100 years. For them they are eladrin and they use this term, even if for faerun's people they simply looks like moon or star elves.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2008 : 18:44:29
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I finally managed to get my hands on a copy of the FRPG today, and I get the impression that you are supposed to just use the Half-Elf for both Half-elves and half-Eladrin.
I have to admit this tome was somewhat better written then the FRCG, and rather then just beat us over the head with new terminology that just confuses everything, they go out of their way to try and explain it all.
And they basically say to just ignore the term 'Eladrin'. 
Not in so many words, but it does say that most Gold and Moon (and Star) Elves just ignore the racial terminology that has 'come back to them' through the Feywild, and that players are free to do so to. It also explains how most Eladrin just use the term 'Elf' to describe all Elves and Eladrin.
Sort of back-peddling without back-peddling. <where's my 'smirk' smiley?>
Anyhow, considering how they go out of the way to tell everyone Eladrin are really just Elves by another name in that book, the Half-elf seems to be the 'official' way of handling Half-Eladrin.
At least, thats the way I'm interpreting all of that. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Nov 2008 18:54:56 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2008 : 19:01:10
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| I don't have any problems with the terminology of Eladrin/Elf, but the rules mechanic says that Half-Elfs can take Human and Elven feats & such due to their dual heritage. But Eladrin feats (& such) aren't mentioned. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Amon The Pole
Acolyte
Poland
6 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 08:24:19
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Markustay-> problem with FRPG is when you read info about half-elves and you see words "elf" or "elves" you can't be sure what its mean: a name of all fey nation in faerun, or maybe just name of race from page before.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 18:59:11
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Since I don't play with 4e rules, I probably didn't see any problems like that - my bad.
I just appreciated how this book tried to clarify a lot of things, whereas the previous one (FRCG) just threw tons of new terms at you and was confusing as hell.
The racial feats thing didn't even dawn on me... that is a conundrum (IF I were DMing a 4e game, I let the player choose from Eladrin Feats rather then Elven ones, but thats just me and in no way official). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Nov 2008 18:59:45 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 21:49:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And they basically say to just ignore the term 'Eladrin'.
Not in so many words, but it does say that most Gold and Moon (and Star) Elves just ignore the racial terminology that has 'come back to them' through the Feywild, and that players are free to do so to. It also explains how most Eladrin just use the term 'Elf' to describe all Elves and Eladrin.
-This is (mostly) what we've all been saying, and what Rich Baker more or less echoed. 'Eladrin' is the term used for the D&D race and the D&D mechanics. The term, however, is not used in-setting. Rather, creatures that are defined as 'Eladrin' according to 4e D&D terminology are still Sun Elves, Moon Elves and Star Elves in-setting. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 00:40:52
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Right, but someone had a real 'boner on' for using that term in every other sentence in the FRCG, and they've obviously taken a much-needed step back from that.
Its good to see some common sense starting to take shape over there, now the 'high' of creating a new edition is behind them,
It gives me hope that something can be salvaged, after all. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Nov 2008 00:41:47 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 06:43:09
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Hope springs eternal... I'd like to believe that, too, but we won't really know until we get some objective overall data on the popularity of the 4E Realms.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
IIRC, the most 'official' response I have heard to this question over at WotC was that the player decides which parent his character takes after more, and then use the stats from that race. You can call it a half-Elf, and it may look like a half-Elf, but on paper it's either a human or an Elf, plain and simple.
<snip>
I suppose the idea is that it is VERY rare for an Eladrin to breed with 'lesser races', and when they do, there blood either becomes ascendent (and the child is very close to a full Eladrin), or it becomes recessive, and the child is closer to a human (with a 'fey look' about them). Ergo, you really don't need rules for this rare event (that is part of 4e's mentality - you only need rules for things you will use a lot).
I actually like that... it makes Realms half-elves more like Professor Tolkien's half-elves, and I always thought that half-elves in previous editions were never really distinct enough to be their own race anyway. In 1E and 2E, they're humans with infravision (now darkvision), and in 3(.5) they're humans with low-light vision and without the bonus feat and skill points. In my group, nobody bothered looking at them at all in our 4E playtest, and then we went back to 3.5 rules and setting specs. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 14 Nov 2008 06:43:32 |
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Amon The Pole
Acolyte
Poland
6 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 09:19:07
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It is not make Realms half-elves more like Professor Tolkien's half-elves. It just mean that Wild and Forest elves, who usually lives in deep woods of faerun, usually far (anyway enough far )from any (humans) civilization have often children with humans than Moon elves who many times lives in human cities. Furthermore these children of forest and farm are wonderful leaders (half elf description in PH).
But eladrins? They are to proud to live in humans community like Waterdeep, or gods save Silverymoon and have humans consorts. They are to proud to even looked at any human so they live in full eladrin's ghetto call Myth Drannor. And they of course have no relationship with dalesfolk.
Yea?
I start to understand intentions of 4e creators:
Half elves description belong to Aglarond half elves. Only to them. So all half-elf characters must be from there...
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 15:45:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I suppose the idea is that it is VERY rare for an Eladrin to breed with 'lesser races'.
Woah, I can think of a number of characters who *really* didn't get that memo.
IMO, it's rather more likely that (from a design perspective--though obviously I'm not a designer or in any way "official") mixing eladrin blood with human blood leads you somewhere nearer the "inferior" elf end of the fey spectrum, rather than the eladrin. The operation is similar to how elves split off from eladrin in the first place, forming a "lesser" race.
Elves have the abilities they do from being part of the "feywild stock": elf. Eladrins and elves are both kinds of elves--they're just different names for the same creature (let's call it a sort of "fey"), though clearly they are two "species" of the same "genus (fey)" (or whatever--I'm none too good at biology). But the *eladrin*-elf is closer to the original feywild-elf (serene/aloof/mysterious), whereas the *elf*-elf has become something new and different (a woodsy-sort-of-elf).
Just as if you radically altered the environment of a bunch of humans--from high civilization to technology-less, brute jungle--they might evolve into "lesser/savage" versions of themselves as their culture is lost bit by bit over the years, so too did the fey creatures who came to Faerun find themselves cut off from their more sophisticated (or perhaps less--but different) culture in the feywild, and evolved into what *elves* are today.
Elves evolved the direction they have taken because of their connection to Faerun, while eladrin have evolved a different way (or are nearer to what they were before coming to Faerun), based on a closer connection to the feywild--they are what they are in 4e, because their connection with the feywild has returned, radically altering them.* An eladrin mating with a human just brings those abilities out faster than ages of evolution along an alternate path.
Thus, the children of humans and eladrin are half-elves, with abilities like those of the lesser elves, rather than the greater eladrin.
As regards the OP: What you do mechanically is of course up to you. I know in a previous post I gave three very coherent--in-my-not-so-unbiased-opinion (IMNSUO)--suggestions for how to handle it in-game, and above I've given a sort of justification for having eladrin-humans be half-elves with elf abilities.
I will also note that the majority of the eladrin-only or elf-only feats deal specifically with eladrin/elf racial abilities (fey step or elven accuracy, neither of which half-elves have or can get without you house ruling it), so your selection of feats that will actually *work* is rather limited. Basically, you're limited to the elven light step or the eladrin soldier bit(?) Don't have my book on me right now.
All the eladrin/elf-centric feats in the FRPG are also about augmenting these two racial core abilities, so in theory a half-elf *could* take one of these feats, but it would be generally useless.
And just as the moon elf/sun elf/wood elf/wild elf feats in the FRPG are exclusive, I suspect you'll want to institude that policy in your game for half-elves as well (i.e. your character can be a half-wood elf, but not a half-wood elf/moon elf).
Cheers
*Note: Existing moon elves/sun elves obviously changed from 3e to 4e [for instance, gaining a fey step ability and losing eye pattern]. But even if we don't know how, but that doesn't mean there isn't an explanation. Perhaps the feywild coming closer to the Realms reached out and infused them with a fey power they had lost long ago? Perhaps in 1385 they found themselves shifting back and forth between random points of the feywild and the Realms, and only learned to control this "fey step" after much hard work [or, y'know, went insane].) Perhaps they are all imbued with the cultural memory of generations of feywild eladrins? Perhaps there still exist pockets in the Realms of eladrin who refuse to accept this newfound "eladrin-ness"? Sky's the limit here--WotC has left if open for you to do what you want in your campaign.
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Faerun's halfelves in 4ed
