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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
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Swordsage
Learned Scribe
149 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 01:09:32
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I have a simple question for the designers: what does a long-time player (not DM) of the Realms with a decent knowledge of the geography and history of the place get out of MotM and why would he/she buy it?
The Swordsage
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 02:30:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Snotlord
To me, the Mysteries of the Moonsea is at least 15 hours of gaming fun for the reasonable price of 1 work hour. Like my beloved Lords of Darkness, this book is simply an unbeatable bargain.
  What do you do for living? I can guess you're probably not a librarian to earn that much for an hour's work  
Otherwise, good comments! I have not yet bought this book, but I like the general concept. If I'll buy it, I'll use/modify both the fluff and the quests presented in this book to fit my campaign. Even if I only used a map or a quest or two from this book, I would consider the money well spent. All the other stuff may fit a future campaign, or I'll work them into my current one later. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Darrin Drader
Forgotten Realms Designer
16 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 06:52:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Swordsage
I have a simple question for the designers: what does a long-time player (not DM) of the Realms with a decent knowledge of the geography and history of the place get out of MotM and why would he/she buy it?
The Swordsage
I'm not of the opinion that every book should be useful to every player. In all seriousness, Mysteries of the Moonsea is useful primarily to DMs. Unless I was a player who loved sitting around reading lore about the major cities of the Forgotten Realms, I wouldn't spend my money on it. What's more is that a player buying this book could ruin an otherwise perfectly good campaign. If you're primarily a player, this book is probably not for you. And there's nothing wrong with that. |
Edited by - Darrin Drader on 28 Jun 2006 06:53:23 |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 07:14:42
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Well, the thing is, that the books aren't "Tagged," Darrin. If there was a big sticker on the front that said "More useful if you are a DM!" sure, I buy that 100 percent. But thankfully, my players listen when I tell them "Don't buy book X, or if you do, you don't have these pieces of information ICly." In general, I'm not a big fan of books that can be used to perform OOC/IC crossover with a die roll.
Is Vampire Manshoon eventually going to die in my game so I can replace him with a new Faceless? Sure! Do I need his statblock? Likely not. And to answer many of the questions about me, I have a heinous full time retail job, where I work as much as 90 hours a week during some parts of the year, and yet, I still have time to statblock creatures. But let me let you in on a little secret. Most of the time, I don't statblock anything. That's right. Unless the NPC is REAL important and has a name, I don't statblock the NPC at all. I wing it. As good DMs have done since time immemorial. I use most monsters straight out of the book, and make a feat list for joe dragon with the adjustments. Sometimes, I find out that combinations are broken in mid run, but it just means that I'll have to figure out a way not to do that next time.
On Sunday, I ran a session where there were six 2nd level PC's, and ONE dire ape killed two people because he rolled a total of NINE Crits. I even fudged two away. Joe dire ape, out of the book, in a group where all the players have been playing since the age of eight or nine. The youngest person has 21 years of experience playing, and people STILL make mistakes and die. It happens.
This is why I generally don't need statblocks, because there are already so many out there that I can modify an existing one to get what I want if I don't have time to make one. Most NPCs below 7th level I don't even build who the PC's are going to fight. And, when I DO make one, I don't throw it away. :)
The thing is, I very much like it when I can get to the roleplay and NOT worry about the numbers, BUT, at the same time, the numbers are important enough that we shouldn't need a pushbutton world to do so.
The "young whippersnapper gamers" who play more videogamey games aren't the problem. The pushbutton world we live in where people think they don't have to WORK for things is.
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Swordsage
Learned Scribe
149 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 07:54:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Darrin Drader
I'm not of the opinion that every book should be useful to every player. In all seriousness, Mysteries of the Moonsea is useful primarily to DMs. Unless I was a player who loved sitting around reading lore about the major cities of the Forgotten Realms, I wouldn't spend my money on it. What's more is that a player buying this book could ruin an otherwise perfectly good campaign. If you're primarily a player, this book is probably not for you. And there's nothing wrong with that.
I appreciate your candor, because that's the response that makes sense. The only difficulty is that, aside from Melvaunt, all of the information on the cities has been done before (and with respect, in slightly more detail) in the Forgotten Realms Adventures hardcover. Ed did Melvaunt in his old Polyhedron column but I'm guessing only relatively few fans have that source. What I'm driving at is that MotM comes across to me as a glorified adventure, with little utility to anyone not DM-ing a campaign in the Moonsea, and little utility to those fans who just buy the products for the lore - because there wasn't all that much of that either.
What I did love were the use of DMGII "sites" with magical powers. I thought the introduction of those was superb, and for me the saving grace of the whole book.
All in all however, I thought that given the points I've raised above, that this book appeals to a smaller segment of the FR fanbase than a 'standard' regional sourcebook, and arguably no more than a 'standard' adventure. There is little or nothing in it for players to 'cherry pick' (like PrCs, feats, magic items et al.) and most non-FR D&D fans are likely to pass also - again due to the fact that it lacks any crunch for them to adopt for their own games.
So we have a product of linked mini-adventures, with regurgitated (for the most part) lore and a lack of crunchy bits for crossover or player base appeal. If I was in marketing, I'd have a hard time selling that one.
The Swordsage
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Wil_Upchurch
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 08:35:57
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If y'all's doom and gloom about the book's sales are correct, then you won't have to worry about any more campaign arcs. Yay for you! :) (I mean that, not being snarky :) ).
Are you ready to accept the alternative, though, that the majority of people might like the campaign arc and want more? I'm not saying that'll happen, but if it does, it's not a conspiracy...it's just reality. :) |
Wil Upchurch
15th-Level Freelancer
magewebmaster@yahoo.com |
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FireKnife
Acolyte
USA
48 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 08:51:14
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| SKR and Wil Upchurch Thank you for MoM I enjoyed as did my friends who game. Between MoM and FRCS I have all the info I need and can plug in what I want and take out what I don't need. I like the format in SK or LEoF. MoM is different and we were warned. I think SKR had alot of valid points. I think it sucks that alot of negative comments get said about the products or novels. These comments are often made before a product comes out or by people who have not purchased the it. Creative criticism is one thing, hostile attacks are another. |
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seankreynolds
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
91 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 12:03:07
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| I'm heading to the airport in an hour and I want to give some detailed comments but for now I'll just say: I agree with Darrin, this book is intended primarily for DMs and probably isn't a player-purchase item. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 12:57:42
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| I haven't read the other pages of this thread (maybe a good thing, given what I've read on this page), but I did want to ask a question: does MotM update the Moonsea to what it looks like after the Last Mythal series closes? Because all the power shake-ups there just scream "adventurers wanted" to me. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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BobROE
Learned Scribe
Canada
106 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 14:15:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I haven't read the other pages of this thread (maybe a good thing, given what I've read on this page), but I did want to ask a question: does MotM update the Moonsea to what it looks like after the Last Mythal series closes? Because all the power shake-ups there just scream "adventurers wanted" to me.
No it doesn't, it's set in 1373 and says so in the introduction. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 14:24:51
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quote:
Originally posted by BobROE
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I haven't read the other pages of this thread (maybe a good thing, given what I've read on this page), but I did want to ask a question: does MotM update the Moonsea to what it looks like after the Last Mythal series closes? Because all the power shake-ups there just scream "adventurers wanted" to me.
No it doesn't, it's set in 1373 and says so in the introduction.
Which makes a 1/4 of the so called "Realms lore" in MoM useless for any one running a post Last Mythral campaign 
yet another reason why really dislike this product
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 17:47:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by BobROE
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I haven't read the other pages of this thread (maybe a good thing, given what I've read on this page), but I did want to ask a question: does MotM update the Moonsea to what it looks like after the Last Mythal series closes? Because all the power shake-ups there just scream "adventurers wanted" to me.
No it doesn't, it's set in 1373 and says so in the introduction.
Which makes a 1/4 of the so called "Realms lore" in MoM useless for any one running a post Last Mythral campaign
yet another reason why really dislike this product
I wouldn't call it useless, it's just going to require more work on a DM's part. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 18:51:53
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From what little information I read before my business trip (Chapter 1 and part of 2)...I enjoyed it. I look forward to other rpg books following this format. I have no problem saying it, I am old. So are my friends/family. I also work for a livng and so do my friends since they are all married with children. Keep up the good work! Ruins of Adventures rocked when I was a kid and don't forget that a week = a tenday in the Realms. heh
time to get back to work |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 19:13:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Darrin Drader
quote:
By the way is the Phlan WE feature locked or are you open to suggestions?
At this point, consider me very suggestible. At least for the next day or two.
By the way, I'm also responsible for the D20 Future update of the Sathar via web enhancement. I'm firmly grounded in classic gaming, so that's one of my favorite pieces of work - well, of the online variety, anyway.
I know I am late on this but here is my two cents. The books established a wizards school, I rather see this wizards school in Delnor's Tower instead of certain Red Wizard spy. (Don't know why they ignored continuity...*shrugs*) More information on the temple of Tyr too and how the temple deals with the current rogues guild....awww hells I would be happy with anything. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 19:19:17
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| That's annoying, and not just that 1/4 of the book was obsolete before it was released. At the rate they're covering regions, it'll be another four or five years before we get around to the Moonsea again, and this is the largest change that's happened there since the setting was introduced. I wish they'd done something similar to Power of Faerun and at least made mention of it. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Sammael
Acolyte
27 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 20:29:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Wil_Upchurch
Are you ready to accept the alternative, though, that the majority of people might like the campaign arc and want more?
Yes. If that were to happen, I would change my gaming purchases in the following manner:
1) Buy more physical versions of older FR books/boxed sets. I own them all on PDF, but my books remained behind when I left the US some 6 years ago, and I haven't been able to get ahold of them.
2) Buy FR books only at HUGE (50%+) discounts. I recently bought Faiths & Pantheons, the most useless FR book of all times, because it had a 60% discount (and I got my usual 10% store discount on top of that as well). I also got Champions of Ruin, another book of rather dubious value, at a 50% discount. On the other hand, I didn't mind paying the cover price for Power of Faerûn, which contains advice on at least five different topics I've recently had to consider for my campaign (now entering its 5th year, with 17th-18th level PCs).
3) Buy more D&D miniatures. No, wait, I already do that. I've actually reduced my book budget so I can buy more plasticrack. |
Edited by - Sammael on 28 Jun 2006 20:29:50 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2006 : 00:20:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Which makes a 1/4 of the so called "Realms lore" in MoM useless for any one running a post Last Mythral campaign
yet another reason why really dislike this product
I wouldn't call it useless, it's just going to require more work on a DM's part.
But wait wasnt MoM designed so you could buy it and run it on the same day? |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2006 : 01:31:09
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Well, that depends. One thing I use published adventures for a great deal is stealing, well, anything that catches my interest. Dungeons, plot hooks, rumors, NPC's, you name it, and moving them into my own campaign. So, from that perspective, a book like this might be of great value.
However, I'm not sure you can capture the feeling of the entire Moonsea with some fairly short blurbs at the beginning of chapters. How much has been published in 3e about the Moonsea? Just the FRCS?
What I'd *really* like to see would been a Moonsea sourcebook (or, dare I think it, Volo's [Third Edition] Guide to the Moonsea?), followed my Mysteries of the Moonsea, a book devoted to adventures. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Brenigin
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
117 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2006 : 11:11:58
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| I'm enjoying it immensely. There's a perfect hook for almost every PC in my campaign! |
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BobROE
Learned Scribe
Canada
106 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2006 : 14:30:10
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Zhentil Keep:
Sinister Inn - Room 3 the following is a map of the room
xccx
xccxxx
xxxx
Each letter is a 5ft square. The PCs are in the c squares which is a 10 by 10 foot cage, and in the other 8 squares there are 2 humans and 4 ogres. How, I'm not sure. Also it says a grate on the cage is marked on the map, but nothing is marked.
Beholders' Lair - limited connection to the prior adventures, which is unfortunate cause they're linked quite well. Room 6 is a little confusing cause it mentions the death tyrant but has no conditions for the death tyrant to be summoned. Also information about what the beholders might be doing if they're not in their sanctuary would have been nice. Room 10: no problem, I just like a room where the majority of the text is the treasure.
The Temple of Bane - yet again, no real reason to come here. Room 3, I wish that designers would stop referencing creatures in books that have been since reprinted and updated in newer books (the direguard is in LEoF).
Now a general comment on the urban adventures, the ones that are tied together are tied too close together so it would be very hard to gain the needed experience for each one.
And there's no great connection between the non urban adventures.
But there are some connections between the urban and non-urban adventures, even if the expected levels don't exactly sink up.
Lost Temple - There's no mention of if the stairs from room 2 and room 3 is set or not, and also if the stairs aren't active if there's anyway to activate them from room 3. And if the stairs aren't active how much weight is needed to activate them.
Dragons' Lair - no areas c, d, or e are marked on the map.
Citadel of the Raven - cool to have, but not really an adventure, more just a location. |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2006 : 23:16:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by BobROE
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I haven't read the other pages of this thread (maybe a good thing, given what I've read on this page), but I did want to ask a question: does MotM update the Moonsea to what it looks like after the Last Mythal series closes? Because all the power shake-ups there just scream "adventurers wanted" to me.
No it doesn't, it's set in 1373 and says so in the introduction.
Which makes a 1/4 of the so called "Realms lore" in MoM useless for any one running a post Last Mythral campaign
yet another reason why really dislike this product
I guess you never run/modify adventures from the Dungeon Magazine in your campaigns, Dargoth? |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2006 : 23:40:12
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Well, I just had another positive point on this tome. One of the Lords for my Lords of Waterdeep project was proving a bit difficult, because his backstory just didn't quite work for me. Reading thru the Hillsfar section got the muse working, and she kicked out a much better backstory.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2006 : 23:46:32
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I found a Zhentarim spy with a cover identity that uses the family name Greycastle, which is the last name of the party rogue/druid . . . I can have fun with that one  |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2006 : 02:16:06
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This book is easy.
For a Pro DM like me, this book helps me to set the mood, gives me the locations and BAM (thank you, Emeril) I'm off.
It's not as fleshy as I'd hope for in my dreams (you know, major detail and all that), but I think most Realms DM's don't have time to sit around and plod through tomes just to do their setup work for play later.
This book's more like a seed than the whole flower. One just has to decide what's more fun; looking at the flowers or watering them and watching the grow.
J. Grenemyer |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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Zeboaster of Ordulin
Acolyte
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2006 : 15:08:49
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This is one of those books where I am quite torn. On one hand, I've been pretty happy with the types of books we've seen from 2001-2005 (Silver Marches through Lost Empires of Faerun). I don't mind getting player options for a region as well as a lore heavy tome with a few adventuring sites filled in. It makes for some good ideas for all involved, players and DMs alike, and most of the areas covered in those books were areas that haven't been covered in well over a decade, if at all. I wasn't terribly excited by the concept of Mysteries of the Moonsea, but the idea of 20 mini adventuring sites is compelling, because there is always something interesting in each book (besides, I'm running out of Inn floorplans to steal from the FR Atlas :-) ).
Mysteries of the Moonsea has a lot of great ideas, but I wish there had been more lore in it. The great ideas are ideas for adventures that I can use anywhere. The problem is, I already have a source for those Generic things...it's called Dungeon. I liked this book for what it was, and I commend the designers for some great ideas that I will use for my game. But I don't know that I'll buy the next Forgotten Realms book that uses this style of play, unless it's in another high-traffic area of the realms, like the Western Heartlands or Cormyr. If a book like this was released for the Old Empires or Impiltur, I don't think I'd buy it.
On the o |
Zeboaster, a distinguised character known for his sarcasm and perfumed beard, is currently in hiding after making one too many witty and/or truthful remarks.
FRA p96 |
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2006 : 18:58:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Which makes a 1/4 of the so called "Realms lore" in MoM useless for any one running a post Last Mythral campaign
A couple of pages are more accurate IMO, unless Rich nuked the region from orbit. And besides, who can run a post Last Mythal game without knowing the past? |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2006 : 06:01:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Snotlord
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Which makes a 1/4 of the so called "Realms lore" in MoM useless for any one running a post Last Mythral campaign
A couple of pages are more accurate IMO, unless Rich nuked the region from orbit. And besides, who can run a post Last Mythal game without knowing the past?
Not that it can't be done, you buy these products expecting them to reflect the current timeline, yet now we have a supplement BEHIND the novels. Last Mythal is billed as a Realms shaking event for the elves and it GREATLY effects this area, yet all the info inside it is useless for people wanting to play in the CURRENT timeline. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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El Magnifico Uno
Learned Scribe
113 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2006 : 06:34:03
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| Well it's not "useless" per se.. They can always do that thing that some DMs do - be creative.. Take the surviving characters from the Last Mythal series and extrapolate what their reactions would be to the new world order given the info in the Moonsea sourcebook.. Doesn't need to be canon, just needs to be interesting and fun.. |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2006 : 08:18:56
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
Not that it can't be done, you buy these products expecting them to reflect the current timeline, yet now we have a supplement BEHIND the novels.
I don't buy them expecting that they'll conform precisely to what's in a novel.
I don't imagine most DMs do either, or that most DMs care overmuch how the novels twist the setting.
Sourcebooks drive DnD campaigns; novels, much less so.
Now if this were not the case, I think we’d see more coordination between sourcebooks and novels because WotC’s always been in tune with what the majority of their customer base wants.
Regardless, Mysteries of the Moonsea is far sturdier that it’s being given credit for. Any DM that committed to precision timekeeping can still easily take the wealth of material this sourcebook provides and modify it to suit his or her interpretation of current novel events.
That all said, I can understand why scribes from these parts would like to see more coordination. Wouldn’t hurt overmuch, you ask me.
J. Grenemyer
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09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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Mysteries of Moonsea?!?
