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Darrin Drader
Forgotten Realms Designer
16 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 22:26:16
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Regarding Selfaril - the novel in question wasn't on the list of required reading for the book. Like many of the RPG designers, I don't keep up on many of the novels, so unless someone points something out ahead of time, I'm pretty unaware of it. Now when I was writing it, I was very much aware of the similarities to Man in the Iron Mask, which is specifically why I avoided making that comparison.
Which is canon? There's a long history of divergence between the novels and the RPG. Pick the lore you like best and use it.
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Mulmaster Chapter:
The description of how Rassendyll replaced his brother does not match with Mage in the Iron Mask
See above.
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Undercity Sewer - Large creatures abound all behind 5 foot wide doors and coridors. And there's a Huge creature down a series of 5 foot wide hallways and doors, so it's trapped there. And where did all these monstrous creatures come from?
The scale on the map is 1 square = 10 feet, so I'm not seeing a problem here. Many creatures routinely enter this area through the sewers.
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Thayan Enclave - In room 13 it says a character starts combat by using his staff of power, however he doesn't have a staff of power listed in his stats
That character should have a staff of power and globe of invulnerability listed in his equipment. Not sure if that was a turnover problem or a development problem.
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Seaside caves - In room 9 there is a chasm this is crossed by a bridge according to the text, no bridge on the map though. Room 10 has a magical shield listed as treasure but it lacks a plus value
There was a bridge on the original map that was turned over. What happened to it after that is anyone's guess. The shield was +2 if memory serves. The bridge should be located roughly in the center of the chamber.
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The Pillar of Fire - has Enthranos used the pillar of fire?
Yes, but the dragon's own attacks and abilities are far more powerful than the benefit you get from the Pillar of Fire, so it was hardly worth mentioning.
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The Elemental Scourge - In room 3 it mentions an engraving on the wall of the room, what it's of or about isn't mentioned.
The engravings are there purely for artistic value and portray the same types of imagery found throughout the structure. |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 22:55:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Darrin Drader
Like many of the RPG designers, I don't keep up on many of the novels, so unless someone points something out ahead of time, I'm pretty unaware of it.
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Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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BobROE
Learned Scribe
Canada
106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2006 : 03:11:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Darrin Drader
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Undercity Sewer - Large creatures abound all behind 5 foot wide doors and coridors. And there's a Huge creature down a series of 5 foot wide hallways and doors, so it's trapped there. And where did all these monstrous creatures come from?
The scale on the map is 1 square = 10 feet, so I'm not seeing a problem here. Many creatures routinely enter this area through the sewers.
Unfortunately, the map in the book is 1 square = 5 feet. |
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Wil_Upchurch
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2006 : 04:08:08
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Originally posted by BobROE
Unfortunately, the map in the book is 1 square = 5 feet.
This is why you probably can't expect satisfactory answers from us about this sort of thing. :) |
Wil Upchurch
15th-Level Freelancer
magewebmaster@yahoo.com |
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BobROE
Learned Scribe
Canada
106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2006 : 06:43:30
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Originally posted by Wil_Upchurch
This is why you probably can't expect satisfactory answers from us about this sort of thing. :)
No, I can, cause now I know it was suppose to be (and should be) 1 square = 10 feet. |
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Swordsage
Learned Scribe
149 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2006 : 09:56:45
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Interesting to see that SKR stayed true to the info in FRA and kept all the individuals such as heads of temples etc, the same. Darin Drader for Mulmaster went the opposite route and changed them all.
The Swordsage
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Wil_Upchurch
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2006 : 09:57:35
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| It's interesting to note that the map gallery contains maps for adventures that were cut from the book. :) |
Wil Upchurch
15th-Level Freelancer
magewebmaster@yahoo.com |
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Dhomal
Senior Scribe
USA
565 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 02:35:10
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Hello-
One thing I've noticed so far - and it could have an answer that is fairly simple - just sort-of amusing.
In the first city-section (book is not with me) in the last adventure - it talks about the key that is needed to be assembled to de-activate the prismatic walls. Cool. It also mentiones that the NPC whose tomb this is supposed to be most likely left the tomb via the portal behind the three prismatic walls. It also mentions that there MAY be an entire portal network that we could create to our own personal desire, and that the portals were all keyed to the assembled key - the pieces of which are found in the adventure. (I like these sorts of open-endedness elements.)
I guess my question is - how did the NPC get TO the portal to exit the 'tomb' without the key being in place on the pedistal. Then - even if he *did* get to the portal - how did he activate it - since apparently they are all keyed to the 'key' in question. (*or, possibly - the other portals in the network*) Also - if the portal is active without the key - how did the key become fragmented and separated in the caves? The way I see it - 2 of the 3 pieces are deliberately protected.
I can explain a way around all these issues - but it takes quite a bit of 'rigamarole', and I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts?
My gut instinct is to allow the initial portal to work without the key, and assume that a lieutennant returned from the portal (not having passed throuigh) and then removed and segmented the key, moving the parts throughout the caves. (*He would also have been the one to remove the other key - the jade one - sealing the whole cave system.*) As for the other portals in the possible network - I would probably either change the key, (maybe a phrase w/ the NPC's name in it or someting.) or just assume that the NPC went where it took him - and essentially never look back.
I have a particular interest in portals. :)
Dhomal |
I am collecting the D&D Minis. I would be more than willing to trade with people. You can send me a PM here with your email listed - and I can send you my minis list. Thanks!
Successfully traded with Xysma! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 02:53:42
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| Or there could have been a second set of commands in the gate's operation that allowed for one specific person to be able to utilize them without the key, but anyone else wanted to use them would need the key. |
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BobROE
Learned Scribe
Canada
106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 03:02:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wil_Upchurch
It's interesting to note that the map gallery contains maps for adventures that were cut from the book. :)
Any idea if said adventures might ever see the light of day? |
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Darrin Drader
Forgotten Realms Designer
16 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 04:46:52
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No, I can, cause now I know it was suppose to be (and should be) 1 square = 10 feet.
Oops, I was looking at the partially flooded dungeon, not the sewers.  No, the correct scale on that one is what's on the map. As for large creatures being down there, it's not that big of a deal. Large creatures can squeeze through five foot corridors and doorways, they just need more room to actually fight in those qaurters. Anything bigger than that was brought in through magical means and then abandoned.
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Interesting to see that SKR stayed true to the info in FRA and kept all the individuals such as heads of temples etc, the same. Darin Drader for Mulmaster went the opposite route and changed them all.
I figured that with a megalomaniac like Rassendyll Uoumdolphin in charge, changes in the city would happen pretty frequently. Some would say something that displeases him, he might perceive others as a threat, but the end result is the same - rapid and quiet replacement. The only question is which ones are able to use the clout of their organization to leave the city in peace, and which ones just quietly disappeared.
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Originally posted by Wil_Upchurch
It's interesting to note that the map gallery contains maps for adventures that were cut from the book. :)
Huh, thanks for pointing that out. Now I know what Erothe's stronghold would have looked like had they not excised him from the book.
As for seeing these in print - I seriously doubt it. In the case of Erothe's stronghold, removing this location from the book required some degree of rewriting of each of the wilderness locations since he was the boss. It's actually kind of a shame. I rather liked the notion of this monster army being led by a frost giant wight. |
Edited by - Darrin Drader on 26 Jun 2006 04:56:26 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 04:52:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Darrin Drader
quote:
[quote]Interesting to see that SKR stayed true to the info in FRA and kept all the individuals such as heads of temples etc, the same. Darin Drader for Mulmaster went the opposite route and changed them all.
I figured that with a megalomaniac like Rassendyll Uoumdolphin in charge, changes in the city would happen pretty frequently. Some would say something that displeases him, he might perceive others as a threat, but the end result is the same - rapid and quiet replacement. The only question is which ones are able to use the clout of their organization to leave the city in peace, and which ones just quietly disappeared.
So I was right! 
Post I made on June 18th
"Perhaps Selfaril was heard to mutter those fateful words "Who will rid me of this troublesome High Priest" and his underling not knowing which High priest was troubling their lord (And to afraid to ask!) killed all the High Priests in Mulmaster!"
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 26 Jun 2006 04:53:10 |
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Wil_Upchurch
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 05:00:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Darrin Drader
quote:
Originally posted by Wil_Upchurch
It's interesting to note that the map gallery contains maps for adventures that were cut from the book. :)
Huh, thanks for pointing that out. Now I know what Erothe's stronghold would have looked like had they not excised him from the book.
As for seeing these in print - I seriously doubt it. In the case of Erothe's stronghold, removing this location from the book required some degree of rewriting of each of the wilderness locations since he was the boss. It's actually kind of a shame. I rather liked the notion of this monster army being led by a frost giant wight.
Yeah, I doubt those adventures will ever see the light of day, frankly...cut material generally just gets put in the dungeon. :) The Dark Lady wasn't super important to my adventures, but I'm looking forward to seeing how they get people to the dwarf's home straight away. The Dark Lady was cool, though, it was this old rotting haunted pirate ship...very interesting tactically and ambiance-wise. |
Wil Upchurch
15th-Level Freelancer
magewebmaster@yahoo.com |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 15:06:30
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| Wil, if you like them, and they're cut material, post them here. Wizards chose not to publish them, ergo, they don't have the rights to it. It's just garbage to them but to us it's a gold mine. I'm pretty sure they only have the rights to what they actually use, not the stuff they lock up and don't. Or, talk to Paizo. I'll bet you they'd be pleased as punch to release this stuff in dungeon, especially if fan requests want it. |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 16:56:08
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quote:
Originally posted by msatran
Wil, if you like them, and they're cut material, post them here. Wizards chose not to publish them, ergo, they don't have the rights to it. It's just garbage to them but to us it's a gold mine. I'm pretty sure they only have the rights to what they actually use, not the stuff they lock up and don't. Or, talk to Paizo. I'll bet you they'd be pleased as punch to release this stuff in dungeon, especially if fan requests want it.
Well met
Indeed, i'd certainly be very happy to make a place here at Candlekeep to provide download of any such treasures  Feel free to email me if ye wish to discuss, Wil\Darrin  |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Wil_Upchurch
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 18:34:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
Wil, if you like them, and they're cut material, post them here. Wizards chose not to publish them, ergo, they don't have the rights to it. It's just garbage to them but to us it's a gold mine. I'm pretty sure they only have the rights to what they actually use, not the stuff they lock up and don't. Or, talk to Paizo. I'll bet you they'd be pleased as punch to release this stuff in dungeon, especially if fan requests want it.
Well met
Indeed, i'd certainly be very happy to make a place here at Candlekeep to provide download of any such treasures Feel free to email me if ye wish to discuss, Wil\Darrin
Unfortunately it doesn't work that way, WotC owns the rights to everything we turn over as part of our contract. Otherwise I'd be happy to post it. |
Wil Upchurch
15th-Level Freelancer
magewebmaster@yahoo.com |
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seankreynolds
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
91 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 15:47:18
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{Well, my concern is that, after viewing the excerpts on the wizards site, that this book is too DM friendly for it's own good. You all know my opinion about what should and shouldn't be in a book by now, lord knows, I've been a cranky jerk about it enough, but from a pure marketing perspective, I would not have designed the book with nearly so much DM information in the form of statblocks and maps.}
The book is designed to be useable the very same night you buy it. Need an adventure for your FR PCs of whatever levels? Pick up MOTM and you can play that night without having to write a single stat block or draw a single map.
{Really, guys. We can MAKE that stuff. }
Sure, it just takes time. And for more and more players and DMs these days, spare time is something they don't have.
{Map of the Citadel of the Raven? Bonus points. Populating the Citadel sans Semmemmon and Ashemmi? Leave that to the DM.
{I would much rather have things like "Malthiir's Master Plan," Red Plume Tactics, Where Manshoon keeps his magic item caches and a general, not a specific idea of what's guarding them, etc.}
Well ... can't YOU make up that stuff? You seem to have plenty of time to come up with stat blocks. Stat blocks are much harder than running text. :)
{I mean, really, guys, we can build 13th level Red Wizards on our own, it's not THAT hard.}
Mmm hmm, sure. :)
{Furthermore, if you've read The Final Gate, it makes 1/4 of the book useless because of the events regarding Hillsfar. Apparently Maalthiir is still in charge, but he can't be in charge because of Final Gate.}
What? The NOVELS and GAME PRODUCTS don't exactly agree? Impossible! I'm sure the two sides of the department have 6-hour meetings every day to discuss every ongoing detail of products from both sides! In-house designers and freelance designers and authors are given detailed notes on every FR product in progress, updated daily!
(That's sarcasm, by the way. I suspect the books dept probably still doesn't trust game designers to not reveal plot info from novels to the internet.)
{This is no reflection on the writers of MoM, but I prefer the old style regional books. I would much rather build adventures off a throwaway line describing a place then have a series of adventures that basically plot out a campaign.}
And if you have the time to do that, that is very excellent for you. Most people don't have that sort of time any more, at least not once they're out of college, get a full-time job, and start having kids.
{I have to agree here with the people who preferred the second edition sourcebook materials. Those made it feel like a roleplaying game. I don't need a million crunchy statblocks. It bothers me when we try to make the Realms something it's not with too much in the way of statblocks and numbers.}
You mean unlike the 2e Villains' Lorebook, Heros' Lorebook, Draconomicon, Secrets of the Magister, The Magister, The Seven Sisters, Pages from the Mages, Prayers of the Faithful, and many other books that are tons and tons of AD&D game rules crunch?
What it really comes down to is this: not every book is going to appeal to everyone. It simply can't. Even here in this forum we have people cheering or jeering the stat blocks, loving or hating the amount of world info, and loathing or liking the absence of other rulesy material. If we can't get 20 random FR fans in a virtual room to agree on what should be in a book, how do you think we could ever get 40,000 FR fans to do so?
The biggest problem of most of the 2e books was that they were nice to read but the DM had to do a lot of work to put it into a campaign -- draw a map, write an adventure, make a stat block for an NPCs. All this led to a decline in the number of people _playing_ FR and an increase in the number of people who'd buy the book, read it, place it on their shelf, and never do anything with it. Eventually the second category of people tend to stop buying. If you compare sales numbers for 3E FR books now to 2E FR books in 1995, 3E books are selling 5-x10x as many products. CLEARLY they're doing something right now that many people are liking, even if there are vocal opponents of it on the internet.
The internet is not a valid measurement of fan reaction; you guys are the most ardent fans, but you're maybe 10% or even 1% of the audience. The remainder either like or don't like something, and don't bother to talk about it in front of strangers (i.e., on the net). But when a good-selling FR book in 1995 is selling 5,000 copies and a typical FR book in 2005 is selling 40,000 copies, that means that even if you dislike a book, there are a LOT of people out there who like it and want more.
So I'm sorry if you're disappointed in MOTM; all I know is that WOTC continues to support the FR line, which means that FR must still be selling, which means that either (a) the FR fans will buy anything with an FR logo even if it's just _or_ (b) WOTC is creating books that the majority of FR fans want. Personally, I think it's the latter.
I wrote the Hillsfar section so I'll address some comments about that:
{Deadly Arboretum - Area 8 mentions a "nearby roper tree" but there isn't one indicated on the map}
It's on my hand-drawn map but not the book map. This roper tree ("A") should be due east of the "8" on the map, in the NW corner above the two "B" markings.
{Red Wizards Enclave - a map of the overall enclave would have been nice, not the interiors of all the buildings just an overview.}
That's what we had to do because of the size of the adventure. We could either show the whole enclave (which means the mansion would be so tiny as to be unusable as a map, and the mansion is where most of the action will take place) or just the mansion with a simplified text. Part of the problem is that the wiz stat blocks take up so much space there's not as much room for other adventure info. IIRC I did steal a page or two from another adventure to help make this one breathe a little. (Aside: At one point we talked about doing this adventure as a siege, where you'd charge or sneak in and would have to deal with large-scale tactics of dozens of RW ... but that would have been too complex for the space and purpose of the adventure.)
{The Bell in the Depths - Marel? Why the need to create another elf varient, they could just have easily been evil sea elves, without a needing a new name.}
Actually those elves were in the original Moonsea supplement; I just picked them up and made a 3E approximation. If I left them out or used some variant I'm sure people would complain. :p
{Abarat's Folly - The portals are described as a circle of elven runes on the wall of the room they're in, but the rooms are all larger than the tower allows, so is the ring on the orginal wall of the tower or the new "wall", and if it's on the old wall, that suggests the old walls exist and this the fact that the rooms are transdimensionally larger is moot cause there's a wall in the way.}
Consider the rooms extradimensionally "stretched" from their original shape so that the original walls and stuff are still there. It's just bigger on the inside than it is on the outside Thus, the elven runes indicating the portal are still quite there on the wall on the inside of the room
This isn't my section, but....
{Undercity Sewer - Large creatures abound all behind 5 foot wide doors and coridors. And there's a Huge creature down a series of 5 foot wide hallways and doors, so it's trapped there. And where did all these monstrous creatures come from?}
3.5 has rules for big creatures squeezing through an area smaller than their D&D-defined space. Otherwise a horse (Space 10 ft.) could never go down a 5 ft. wide street (which, in real life, would be absurd).
{Wil, if you like them, and they're cut material, post them here. Wizards chose not to publish them, ergo, they don't have the rights to it. It's just garbage to them but to us it's a gold mine. I'm pretty sure they only have the rights to what they actually use, not the stuff they lock up and don't.}
Actually, they pay us for and have rights to our complete turnover, whether or not they use any of it. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 16:10:28
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Must be respectful.
Must not critisize or start fights....
Must be a good boy. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Wil_Upchurch
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 16:34:12
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Must be respectful.
Must not critisize or start fights....
Must be a good boy.
You can disagree and still be respectful, you know. ;)
In fact, that's all anybody ever wants. :) (Well, I can speak for myself...I have no problem with disagreements, but very little patience for disrespectful blathering :) ).
Sean did a great job of summarizing things as I see them, too. I love FR, love FR fans, and FR is the reason I'm in the gaming industry right now (see, now you have a reason to hate it ;) ). Neither we nor WotC are trying to destroy FR, in fact I think we all have the best interests of the setting at heart, even if that might not always jibe with one's desires. |
Wil Upchurch
15th-Level Freelancer
magewebmaster@yahoo.com |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 17:35:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wil_Upchurch
You can disagree and still be respectful, you know. ;)
In fact, that's all anybody ever wants. :) (Well, I can speak for myself...I have no problem with disagreements, but very little patience for disrespectful blathering :) ).
Sean did a great job of summarizing things as I see them, too. I love FR, love FR fans, and FR is the reason I'm in the gaming industry right now (see, now you have a reason to hate it ;) ). Neither we nor WotC are trying to destroy FR, in fact I think we all have the best interests of the setting at heart, even if that might not always jibe with one's desires.
These are points we all need to keep in mind. We may not love everything WotC does, but if we want the Realms to stick around, then we need to support it. Complaining is acceptable, but keep it reasonable and courteous. And remember -- TSR folded on us, and it's not the only game company that has. We don't want to see the same thing happen to WotC. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 17:54:24
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I guess, to me, it means more to do something right than to try to keep it alive by compromising its vision to keep selling it.
I think that the entire theme of FR, and roleplaying in general, have majorly shifted. I think the fact that the primary indicator of a supplements' worthiness being based on how much cash it rakes in is just... wrong. Video games make more money than RPGs; does this mean that it is "right" to make an RPG just like a video game?
I would scoff at a DM who tried to pick up this book and run an adventure about it right away. Why? Because I would be asking questions, for character creation, among other things, that the DM couldn't answer without access to lore outside of this book.
It is getting to the point where I would rather WotC just stop printing FR books, because they're becoming things that just aren't what FR originally was.
And yes, things change, times change, but that doesn't mean that I have to innately like something just because it's "new." I like what I like, whether it's from 30 years ago or today. And I do not like this method of game design or gameplay. I don't like lots of stats or combat in my games, I do not like one-shot adventures or premade adventures where there's little to no thought or study given to the game.
And to call someone an idiot who buys everything FR? I think that was just uncalled for. I know some people like that - and they do it JUST to keep FR running, whether or not they like the supplement. That's because older players are just as much about the setting itself, as a whole, as the stuff printed about it. It's a level of respect that I don't see in new players.
As for the time factor? If you can't do something right, don't do it at all, I say. I'm a double Physics/Classics Major at college and the head yearbook editor... And I don't have time. At all. I make my schedule hour-by-hour, every day of the week. It takes me 13+ hours to do ONE physics problem, sometimes.
Yet, if and when I decide to run a game, I do it right. I put thought and care into it. So the fact that the primary reasoning behind this supplement is "it saves time" just seems like a cop out to me. It shows modern gamers that they can try to juggle two dozen things at once and do a half-assed job on all of them, and that's just fine.
I was angry before, now I'm just sad. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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BobROE
Learned Scribe
Canada
106 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 18:28:18
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{Red Wizards Enclave - a map of the overall enclave would have been nice, not the interiors of all the buildings just an overview.}
That's what we had to do because of the size of the adventure. We could either show the whole enclave (which means the mansion would be so tiny as to be unusable as a map, and the mansion is where most of the action will take place) or just the mansion with a simplified text. Part of the problem is that the wiz stat blocks take up so much space there's not as much room for other adventure info. IIRC I did steal a page or two from another adventure to help make this one breathe a little. (Aside: At one point we talked about doing this adventure as a siege, where you'd charge or sneak in and would have to deal with large-scale tactics of dozens of RW ... but that would have been too complex for the space and purpose of the adventure.)
No, I more meant just an insert of the whole complex (so we'd get the placement and shape of all the buildings) to go along with the detailed map of the building we got. So we, as DMs, could just draw the layout of the whole enclave.
Oh and as a minor nitpick none of the city maps have a scale on them, should they? Do you know what scale they were drawn at? |
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 18:55:19
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
And to call someone an idiot who buys everything FR? I think that was just uncalled for. I know some people like that - and they do it JUST to keep FR running, whether or not they like the supplement. That's because older players are just as much about the setting itself, as a whole, as the stuff printed about it.
I will say that, living where I do, it is extremely hard to get people into FR, since the only real way to get the books is to order them from overseas, something most people interested in games do not want to do when they can spend the same amount of money to buy the latest RPG for X-what and Play-what from Japan for the same price…
Still, like many here on these forums, I have been with the realms since the Gray Box. I have bought realms ever since even when I felt that the product was not worth the paper it was printed on.
Why? Because I want to see the realms continue.
As I posted earlier…if I boycott a product by not buying it because I feel it is not up to snuff, well I am simply telling WOTC that the FR is not a cash cow anymore…
How many official game worlds have met their end because they were not raking in the $$$?
Ravenloft/Masque of the Red Death
Birthright
Mystara
Red Steel
Dark Sun
Planescape
Am I an idiot? Sure, if idiot = loyal fan. I do not want to see the Realms join the above list any time soon. So I will keep being an idiot, and maybe in the interim I can turn on a few people to the Realms and help in some small way to pay some WOTC salaries at the same time….  |
Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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Edited by - Chyron on 27 Jun 2006 18:58:44 |
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seankreynolds
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
91 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 18:57:20
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{I guess, to me, it means more to do something right than to try to keep it alive by compromising its vision to keep selling it.}
Sure ... but whose definition of "right" do we use? I've already pointed out that you guys here can't agree on what is "best" other than "let Ed write whatever he wants even if it'll only sell 100 copies."
{I think that the entire theme of FR, and roleplaying in general, have majorly shifted. I think the fact that the primary indicator of a supplements' worthiness being based on how much cash it rakes in is just... wrong.}
It's not wrong to want to make a product that is profitable. Otherwise you are throwing money away. Do that enough and you get layoffs and eventually bankruptcy.
{Video games make more money than RPGs; does this mean that it is "right" to make an RPG just like a video game?}
As I've worked on both sides of that, my answer is "HELL NO." You can't make a tabletop RPG run like a CRPG and vice versa; they're not the same and trying to do so will make a poor product. But having a book be USEFUL should be a high priority otherwise your audience won't PLAY with the book, and if they're not playing with it then the number of people playing will decline.
{I would scoff at a DM who tried to pick up this book and run an adventure about it right away. Why? Because I would be asking questions, for character creation, among other things, that the DM couldn't answer without access to lore outside of this book.}
Well, any book in the FR line assumes you also have the PH, DMG, MM, and FRCS (and nowadays, PGTF I suppose). With those you should easily be able to use MOTM right off the shelf. Remember, there are many different play styles ... the kick-in-the-door style is what many people prefer, and MOTM + FRCS gives you plenty of info for character generation. Furthermore, the PCs don't even have to be from the Moonsea ... if you're arguing that there isn't enough Moonsea info for character generation, then I'd have to say the FRCS doesn't give you much more info on the Dalelands or Cormyr, yet people have been using the FRCS to make characters for all regions for 5 years now with no problems.
{It is getting to the point where I would rather WotC just stop printing FR books, because they're becoming things that just aren't what FR originally was.}
Ed Greenwood doesn't seem to think so. He's not able to write everything he wants to (party because of time and partly because some of the stuff he wants to write is only valuable to a tiny fraction of the audience and thus isn't worth WotC's time to pay him because it won't make money, and Ed can make more money working on something else than writing up those details, and you can't fault Ed for wanting to be able to pay his mortgage or go out to eat now and then).
{And yes, things change, times change, but that doesn't mean that I have to innately like something just because it's "new."}
Of course not.
{I like what I like, whether it's from 30 years ago or today. And I do not like this method of game design or gameplay.}
Fair enough.
{I don't like lots of stats or combat in my games, I do not like one-shot adventures or premade adventures where there's little to no thought or study given to the game.}
Fair enough. And you don't have to buy products that don't suit your interests. Nobody is forcing you to do so, so you don't need to react like anyone IS doing so. :)
{And to call someone an idiot who buys everything FR?}
Go back and reread what I said. I'm saying that either the "teeming masses" of FR fans will buy anything with an FR logo, regardless of quality or what's in it (in which case they're idiots) or they actually LIKE what WotC has been doing with FR (in which case they're not idiots, WotC has just found what a larger audience likes).
If you interpreted that as me saying FR fans are idiots, well, that's not my intent at all. Again, reread what I said: "Personally, I think it's the latter ... FR fans may be rabid at times but I never felt they were idiots." ... in other words, I believe WotC is making books the "silent" fans like, and I do not believe that FR fans are idiots.
(I could see how it might be interpreted the other way but that's not my intent ... to reiterate yet again, "If option one is that FR fans are idiots and option two is that WOTC knows its market, it must be option two because I've never felt that FR fans are idiots." Hopefully that is clear now.)
{I think that was just uncalled for. I know some people like that - and they do it JUST to keep FR running, whether or not they like the supplement.}
Well, if you don't use your vote (with your wallet), how are you to have any impact on what sort of products WOTC makes for FR? If WOTC decided to publish "The Book of Faerunian Snot," cataloguing what colors of snot various nationalities produce, and you buy it "just to support FR," isn't that stupid? Isn't that telling WOTC "no matter what you do, I'll buy it, so don't bother to have any quality standards or consistency in the books for this world I love ... I am so afraid that you may cancel the line that I would buy a blank book of black pages with just the FR logo on the cover just to continue to support FR so you don't kill it."? Isn't that sort of support, in effect, killing FR? YOU have the power to influence what books they make by not buying things you don't like. If I hand you a plateful of crap and you eat it (even though you secretly want lemon cake), I have ZERO incentive (as a corporation looking at the bottom line) to put ANY effort into actually making lemon cake, I can just keep feeding you crap, and you'll eat it. TELL them you don't want crap, REFUSE to eat it if you think it's crap, DEMAND your lemon cake. But don't keep eating crap in the hope that someday you'll get handed lemon cake.
You can't have it both ways. You can't demand quality and then buy things you think are poor quality. You can't bemoan your impotence in the face of the corporate juggernaut while you pour fuel into its tank. You either exercise your ability as a consumer, or you give up. I see plenty of people here, on my boards, and even on the WotC boards refusing to buy products that don't serve their interests; they are making a difference. Caving on every chance to NOT purchase something you don't want just contributes to the problem.
Pick a reason why you don't like a product: you don't like adventures, you don't like prestige classes, you don't like one of the designers. Decide whether or not to buy the book. Tell WotC why you have made that choice. Unless you tell them, the only thing they have to go by are the sales numbers, and the 39,000 silent buyers greatly outnumber the non-buyers who choose to post here rather than sending a message to WotC about it.
And now we go off on a tangent....
{That's because older players are just as much about the setting itself, as a whole, as the stuff printed about it. It's a level of respect that I don't see in new players.}
This makes no sense. You have feelings of nostalgia about the setting, sure, but complaining that "these whippersnappers don't respect the setting?" Who are YOU to tell them how to play THEIR campaign? If they want to run heroes of the Purple Dragons fighting on the side of Cormyr against the ancient elfdragon, who are you to tell them they're wrong? If they want to run an all-Thayan campaign that's pure diplomacy and backstabbing and politics and they don't touch dice more than once every 4 sessions, who are you to tell them they're wrong? If they want to run a Waterdhavian LARP about trade matters with Skullport, who are you to tell them they're wrong? If Timmy, age 13, wants to have the Shades blow up Cormyr, Sembia, and the Dalelands and have the rest of the campaign be PC dragons fighting against the Netherese "interlopers," who are you to tell him he's wrong? If Timmy is 45 instead of 13, who are you to tell him he's wrong? It's HIS campaign, not yours.
Your idea of "respect" for the setting is ... arrogant and elitist. _WotC_ should respect the setting and what has come before, as should the people who _write_ for WotC in the setting. But individual players and gaming groups don't need to respect the setting at all ... they bought the book, they can play it in the official timeline, or loot it for game mechanics, or use one of the countries in a Dragonlance campaign, or play in FR and blow up the moon and kill most of the gods and have all the mortal races replaced by angels and demons except for goblins which now have two heads. If that's what they want to play in their game, that's fine because it's THEIR game and THEIR time and it doesn't hurt YOUR FR at all.
Or perhaps I am misinterpreting what you mean by "respect for the setting."
{As for the time factor? If you can't do something right, don't do it at all, I say. I'm a double Physics/Classics Major at college and the head yearbook editor... And I don't have time. At all. I make my schedule hour-by-hour, every day of the week. It takes me 13+ hours to do ONE physics problem, sometimes.}
{Yet, if and when I decide to run a game, I do it right. I put thought and care into it. So the fact that the primary reasoning behind this supplement is "it saves time" just seems like a cop out to me. It shows modern gamers that they can try to juggle two dozen things at once and do a half-assed job on all of them, and that's just fine.}
"It" in your last sentence meaning "me and my busy schedule still managing to create the perfect gaming experience"?
So basically you're saying, "If they can't play it my way, they shouldn't be playing at all." Again ... who put YOU in charge of how EVERYONE ELSE plays D&D? If I'm working 2 jobs to support my disabled wife and my 4 kids and I can only get together once a month with my friends for exactly 4 hours, am I a bad player for wanting to pick up a published book and run with it without hours of prep time? Or should I just give up the hobby entirely because I can't schedule my time around baby feedings and my wife's doctor's appointments and double shifts just because YOU don't think I ... what? Want it enough? Have good enough planning skills? Care enough? Respect the setting? I just want to play D&D.
{I was angry before, now I'm just sad.}
I was argumentative before, now I'm outraged. The type of arrogance evidenced in your post is ... well, it's a perfect example of a stereotypical "elitist gamer." Like "Comic Book Guy" from The Simpsons, you have your likes and dislikes, and apparently anyone who doesn't know as much about the subject as your or has a different opinion (the horror!!!) is just wrong. And that attitude hurts the hobby, just as comic store (and game store) employees like Comic Book Guy do more to drive people (especially women) away from comics or games than any other sort of stigma.
And before you start to chew on me for that comment, I'm the one who said "This book is set up to make it easier for DMs who don't have a lot of free time," and you're the one who said "that's a cop-out." You're the one who thinks people with less time/different circumstances/poorer planning skills don't deserve anything to help them get a game together. |
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seankreynolds
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
91 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 19:04:23
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{No, I more meant just an insert of the whole complex (so we'd get the placement and shape of all the buildings) to go along with the detailed map of the building we got. So we, as DMs, could just draw the layout of the whole enclave.}
Ah. Well I based that map on the shape of the building on the Hillsfar city map, so you can just take what's on the city map and go from there. Unfortunately there was no more map-space available (despite shifting most of the art allocation to maps for this book).
{Oh and as a minor nitpick none of the city maps have a scale on them, should they? Do you know what scale they were drawn at?}
I know the Hillsfar map is directly based on the map from the older Moonsea product, which doesn't have a scale on it either (and I don't know if the ones from that book were in scale to each other anyway ... so much for the "perfection" of 2e products, hmm?). I know I worked out a scale for the city, the arena, and the RW enclave based on the arena's capacity and the size of a seated human, but right after I finished this book I had a computer crash and all my recovered files are still in a jumble. For now I'd measure the size of the enclave mansion on the city map, compare that to the size of the overall city, and use the mansion's size on the mansion map to extrapolate the city's size as an approximation. Sorry that I can't be more helpful with that but right now I have 2 MOTM folders, one is my scrambled archive and the other is a set of turnover files that Thomas sent me after the crash, which don't include my separate notes and calculations because they weren't part of the turnover. |
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seankreynolds
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
91 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 19:09:51
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Oh hey I have a comment for Chyron: I sympathize with the difficulties of forming a group, yet wanting to support the line. Yet, that still has the problem of wanting cake but continuing to eat crap. I have a better solution for you.
If a new book comes out that you don't like, don't buy it. Instead, buy another copy of a book you DO like. For example, if you don't like MOTM but do like Serpent Kingdoms, skip MOTM and buy another Serpent Kingdoms. That way you'll have another reference copy at the table when you do have a game, or perhaps use it as a gift to one of your players or to someone you want to get interested in playing. THEN ... email WotC and tell them what you did. Tell WotC, "I want to support FR but I don't like MOTM ... instead I bought another Serpent Kingdoms ... please make more books like Serpent Kingdoms."
WotC gets a sale, in the FR line. Not of the book you don't like. And they get a message about what sort of stuff they'd like to see. Hopefully over time they'll get enough of these messages to stop making stuff that the fans don't want and start making more of the stuff fans do want. I think that's worth a shot. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 19:28:43
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I apologize for giving my opinion, Mr. Reynolds.
I also note that I did not buy the book. Other game designers have critisized me for NOT buying books and commenting about them.
I frankly am not sure how to get my point across anymore. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 27 Jun 2006 19:30:16 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 19:31:19
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| Honestly, Seans point of the buyers choice is a good one. It is impossible to make products that please all interested parts. I may not be interested in a product, but if it makes a lot of other people happy I find it difficult to say that it is a bad thing that it was written or that all of these people have an opinion that is less important than mine. |
Edited by - Jorkens on 27 Jun 2006 19:33:29 |
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Darrin Drader
Forgotten Realms Designer
16 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 20:02:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Honestly, Seans point of the buyers choice is a good one. It is impossible to make products that please all interested parts. I may not be interested in a product, but if it makes a lot of other people happy I find it difficult to say that it is a bad thing that it was written or that all of these people have an opinion that is less important than mine.
Sean's point about buying what you like and not buying what you don't like is a valid one. Just because I'm a game designer doesn't mean that I don't occasionally pony up the cash to buy products myself. Sure, I can get the occasional freebie, but I can't get them all for free, particularly not the stuff I'm really interested in.
My point here, is that I was one of the ones who was irritated when the format of FR books changed to make them extremely player friendly by including a lot of PC building options. Sure, some of them were good worthwhile options, but a number of them (in my opinion) were just more feats, spells, and prestige classes to throw onto the growing pile of feats, spells, and prestige classes. I wanted more source material and adventures.
I also vote with my wallet. Though I buy most FR products, I chose not to buy Champions of Valor. I also question the utility of Power of Faerun and Champions of Ruin, which I did buy. My thought process behind skipping Champions of Valor while purchasing the other two are that Power of Faerun could help support a high level or high profile game and Champions of Ruin could help me build some more interesting NPC opponents.
Now, regarding MotM, I would be very interested in hearing the experiences of people who actually use the campaign path adventures in the book. Way back in the day, I found Ruins of Adventure to be a great deal of fun to run because the adventures were complete, but less fleshed out, so it gave me a lot of opportunity to add my own material both to the adventures themselves and the entire campaign. It seems to me that MotM could be used in a similar manner. Add one big boss, organization, or plot that has a hand in many of the different things going on in the adventures, and I would think that it could be a very fun campaign path to play through. |
Edited by - Darrin Drader on 27 Jun 2006 20:04:00 |
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 21:49:06
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My copy of Mysteries of the Moonsea finally arrived a few hours ago, and as expected I liked it very much at first glance.
I was thrilled about the format from the first time I read about it. I spend way too much time prepping games as it is, so I am a fan of everything that can cut corners. I like published adventures for that reason, but I like making stories too much to tie up my game to one of Paizo's adventure paths or a “super module”, so the new FR format is perfect for my uses.
The book probably isn't as fun to read as for instance Lost Empires of Faerûn, but I know for certain I'll get more mileage for it that LEoF, Serpent Kingdoms and Shining South (all fun books) combined. It has lots of material that fits Moonsea plots in my Cormyr campaign right out of the book.
What about the material? The artwork is very good. I loved the paintings of the cities, which should give the players a good first impression of the cities when their characters arrive. They seem fairly accurate compared to the maps, which I liked.
The Melvaunt section seemed like an okay place to start a campaign. The npc and quests seemed like fairly okay building blocks for a campaign. Low-level stuff is rarely exciting at first glance, so also here.
The Hillsfar section is where it becomes interesting. The overview seem to cover my needs fairly well (first glance, basics of the city). The villains include the city authorities (as it should for that city), Guild Rogues, Thayvans, Zhents and Cormanthor drow. All very useful and fits nicely into a Dalelands campaign.
Mulmaster follow in the same vein, now with stated rulers, in addition to other high-level baddies. The quests are appropriate for the city and region (red wizards, zhentarim, assassins), and seem easy to use. Lots of stuff here to fill out a campaign.
The vanilla thayvans (a red wizard + hired muscle) will see repeated use in my campaign, although use of prestige classes from earlier supplements would have been nice (this is a setting book, not a core book after all).
The Zhentil Keep section is where the action is ;-) The chapter opens with a really cool picture of the harbor bridges. The three villains seem like good main baddies for a campaign that fit several plots I've already established in my game. The stats for three different clerics of Bane is very nice and easily saves me for an hour of work. That alone make up the cover price.
The first couple of locations seem very nice and appropriate, but again I would have liked something more Zhentil Keep specific. More like the Temple of Bane or the Citadel of the Raven, which is are specific places, not something that “just” fits. Still, another dragon lair or ruined temple is always handy and will see use.
Things I would have liked differently? Yes, plenty.
I think the designers (or probably the developers) should have used this opportuninty to show more iconic locations like the Zhentarim headquarters (more of it anyways), rather than sinister inns and the like.
Also, two Thayvan Enclaves seems unnecessary.
Stats for Maalthiir would have been nice, but the Green Giant has probably done him already so I don't mind too much.
Lastly, the designers should have tried harder to cramp in references to older books in the city sections, particularity the outstanding city section in Forgotten Realms Adventures, and probably other books I'm not aware of.
To me, the Mysteries of the Moonsea is at least 15 hours of gaming fun for the reasonable price of 1 work hour. Like my beloved Lords of Darkness, this book is simply an unbeatable bargain.
Why this long post? Well, there is a lot of negativity going around at the moment, and I don't want people who hasn't made up their mind to believe its a bad book. Because it is not.
Would I have preferred as standard regional sourcebook? More is usually better when it comes to FR, but if I have to choose? I prefere the new format.
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Edited by - Snotlord on 27 Jun 2006 22:01:32 |
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Mysteries of Moonsea?!?
