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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 18:31:56
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Correction: High Magic is Elven EPIC Magic :P
As for epic magic, I suggest you read up on it in the "epic spells" section of the SRD.
@Wooly:
1. Since when is she allowed to ban people's magic? o.O If she could, why on earth don't the chosens go whip some evil wizard butt with absolutly no chance of anyone stopping them?
2. Where does it say Drow can't use it?
3. LEoF actually corrects this problem. All the epic netherese spell you are seeing are a) pre-nether scrolls, or b) post-Karsus' Avatar. They used the 10th level spell Ioulaums Longevity as an example.
And as mentioned, Karsus' Avatar is the only published spell where this doesnt make sense - but new stuff overrides old... |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
Edited by - Darkheyr on 25 Apr 2005 18:32:50 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 19:05:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
2. Where does it say Drow can't use it?
The Elven High Mage Prestige class from Races of Faerun states that "all elven high mages are sun elves, moon elves, or wood elves."
In this day and age were designers wish to make a Prestige Class available to everyone possible to increase sales, I think if it was possible for drow to be high mages, it would have been found in the Prestige Class within this tome. |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 20:21:56
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| And what does that PrC have to do with High Magic except a price cut and a name tag? :P |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 20:53:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
And what does that PrC have to do with High Magic except a price cut and a name tag? :P
Well, if drow could be High Mages why wouldn't the "more options for all" designers put the race in there as possible practitioners? |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 21:00:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
And what does that PrC have to do with High Magic except a price cut and a name tag? :P
Now you are just being contray.
The quote provides the restriction to use of "Elven Epic Magic"
In many ways of course one can home/house rule anything at all that they want to. This discussion is trying to provide advive to history and what is consistant. Even when history changes when one is not looking. Unless you can provide a cite that Drow can use "Elven High Magic" the older sources apply that Drow are prevented from using such magic. |
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Rudar Dimble
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 21:26:51
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| So drow are and were never able to cast level 10 spells, but only epic spells? |
Jesus saves... and takes ½ damage |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 21:48:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Rudar Dimble
So drow are and were never able to cast level 10 spells, but only epic spells?
OK this becomes a hard question to answer.
In theory Drow could have cast 10th level spells until there was a ban on the Weave of casting them. They however could never cast High Magic spells (Elven spells after transfromation).
The new source, that basically says forget anything we said in old sources, turned in effect 10th and plus level spells into either Epic spells, Elven Epic spells or spells that no longer work. You as DM get to decide what you will use in your campaign, the existing history AFAIK however argues that of which I offer as being the most consistant.
That Drow used to be able (if achiving such power, the Lolthian Preistess would have tried to prevent that from occuring however occassionally lost to to Drow mage) cast 10th level spells, however were never able to cast High (Elven) Magic spells since the desent.
Under current version it appears that Drow can still cast Epic spells however can not cast Elven Epic spells. The difference might not matter that much under the current rule system. Of course it is subject to change when a new source comes out. It of course will be interesting of what is the difference between Epic spells and Elven Epic Spells. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 22:40:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The conflict does exist -- some spells that were 10th level, and therefore Banned, are now epic spells. Proctiv's Move Mountain is a prime example of this.
Repeat after me "Proctiv's Move Mountain was never a 10th level spell, it was an Epic spell" Say this 100 times ;-)
A retoractice conversion or Editor error.
New source material overrides older source material, even if it does not make sense.
It's a retcon... And, as so many of the retcons are, it's an unexplained one. Until they explain to me how it is that a spell that should be banned is now another type of spell altogether, I'm going to continue thinking of it as a 10th-level spell. |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 22:58:36
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It IS explained. Before there was Chaos as to what is really affected by Mystras Ban. NOW it is pretty clear. So where's the problem? ^^
Again... Does anyone have an actual quote saying Drow can't use High Magic AT ALL? PrC doesnt count - it is quite feasible for most PrC's that members of other races learn the abilities, and the limitation is merely for flair reasons. Plus, PrC alone needn't cover ALL High Mages. |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 23:01:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
@Wooly:
1. Since when is she allowed to ban people's magic? o.O If she could, why on earth don't the chosens go whip some evil wizard butt with absolutly no chance of anyone stopping them?
Page 52 of Faiths & Pantheons (and in Faiths & Avatars before it, but on a different page): "Mystra has the power to deny any creature, mortal or divine, the ability to access the Weave. Should she choose to do so, an affected creature cannot employ any spell or spell-like ability for as long as Mystra chooses to block his or her access to the Weave."
To answer your second question... Mystra can do that, her Chosen can't. And Mystra has to have a good reason to do it -- her portfolio is the Weave, not how people use it. Unless someone is a serious threat to the Weave -- and just the Weave, her followers or Chosen don't count -- then she's not justified in cutting them off.
quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
2. Where does it say Drow can't use it?
The fact that Races of Faer�n specific states that no one other than powerful wizards or sorcerers who are sun, moon, or wood elves indicates to me that drow can't use High Magic. |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 23:05:59
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I never doubted her ABILITY to do so, Wooly - but that she is allowed to. You just proved my point :)
And those restrictions apply to the PrC. And even for that, there is no indication its for anything else but PrC flair. Theoretically, anyone could become a High Mage - IF he finds another High Mage to teach him, which is obviously quite the impossible task. And who's to say that every High Mage has levels in the High Mage PrC anyway? |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 23:07:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
Again... Does anyone have an actual quote saying Drow can't use High Magic AT ALL? PrC doesnt count - it is quite feasible for most PrC's that members of other races learn the abilities, and the limitation is merely for flair reasons. Plus, PrC alone needn't cover ALL High Mages.
No, but we do have quotes that indicate only three elven subraces use it, and those quotes do not list drow as one of those three races. Further, nothing about drow says they can use it...
And I'm sorry, but when only members of a PrC can use something, that indicates to me that no one else can. And the PrC specifically states that no one else can learn it. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 23:12:03
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It does? My apologies then. Cant check RoF right now. Didnt think it was that specific.
Anyway... For story purposes I'd see nothing wrong with a secretive group of Drow wizards, or maybe only one left, preserving the ancient arts of elven High Magic... Or maybe some perverted form of it. After all, its still arcane - and thus not subject to a deities whim unless said deity has a damn good reason to block it (which Mystra hasn't) or is named Shar :P |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 23:31:16
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quote:
Short and sweet opinions/notes on the topic:
Yes, you need to have elven blood to initiate/wield High Magic;
no, you don't have to have it to participate in High Magic (i.e. you're donating your mind and soul and spirit and energy and magic, but you're not exactly in control or wielding magic);
yes, half-elves can cast it, but it's tricky--the way I set it up, you needed to be vastly older than any half elf could get to be a High Mage, which was why it was restricted to full elves; and last but not least....
Mystra's Chosen, if she (or Corellon) deems it necessary and they can learn it, can cast and wield High Magic regardless of elven blood. Thus, I'd have to admit that Khelben does know a thing or two about it from books and from practice.
Steven
Hmmm... Drow would qualify :) |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 23:59:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
quote:
Short and sweet opinions/notes on the topic:
Yes, you need to have elven blood to initiate/wield High Magic;
no, you don't have to have it to participate in High Magic (i.e. you're donating your mind and soul and spirit and energy and magic, but you're not exactly in control or wielding magic);
yes, half-elves can cast it, but it's tricky--the way I set it up, you needed to be vastly older than any half elf could get to be a High Mage, which was why it was restricted to full elves; and last but not least....
Mystra's Chosen, if she (or Corellon) deems it necessary and they can learn it, can cast and wield High Magic regardless of elven blood. Thus, I'd have to admit that Khelben does know a thing or two about it from books and from practice.
Steven
Hmmm... Drow would qualify :)
"I'll try and post more later/tomorrow when I have a brain, but despite what I'd written in the past, I'm more inclined to agree with George's statements above. "
you forgot some of the text and there certainly still exists the debate on how much Elven Blood Drow still have.
However I can say you win if that will make you happy.
The discussion should be focused on helping a DM craft posible events. |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2005 : 00:02:43
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| Oh, I am focusing...and garnering ideas from this discussion as well. I shall post something within a day or two. |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2005 : 05:08:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
I never doubted her ABILITY to do so, Wooly - but that she is allowed to. You just proved my point :)
She's allowed to, she just needs a good reason. Any deity can, with sufficient reason, deny their portfolio to someone. Lathander could see that the sun never rises over someone, Chauntea could see that nothing grows around someone...
But those are examples of the worst kind of punishment. No deity can go tossing those things off just because someone took their name in vain, or because they didn't like the guy's hair... Taking overt action like that is overkill -- they've all got follwers to do their dirty work, so to speak.
And I did just find a spell that the Chosen of Mystra can use, called Laeral's Crowning Touch. It's basically a curse from Mystra. If you're a spellcaster and you get hit with this spell, you can't cast spells for a year and a day. If you do, you start losing levels, your hands get gnarled, and your vocal cords develop sores... All but the lost levels are restored at the end of the spell (those are gone for good).
But Mystra doesn't want this spell being tossed willy-nilly; the person has to be a serious threat to the Weave for her Chosen to cast it. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Apr 2005 05:10:24 |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2005 : 06:18:47
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| Allowed to if a good reason is present and not allowed unless a good reason is present is the same thing Wooly :P |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Rajorke
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 06:25:25
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
2. Where does it say Drow can't use it?
The Elven High Mage Prestige class from Races of Faerun states that "all elven high mages are sun elves, moon elves, or wood elves."
Just because that none of the current wielders of High Magic are Dark Elves does not mean that they can not learn it... and if only elves can learn High Magic then what did the elves teach to the Netherese? |
"I see the dark universe yawning" -H.P. Lovecraft "Nemesis" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 11:33:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Rajorke
Just because that none of the current wielders of High Magic are Dark Elves does not mean that they can not learn it... and if only elves can learn High Magic then what did the elves teach to the Netherese?
Again, it is specifically stated that only sun, moon, and wood elves can learn High Magic.
The elves taught the Netherese magic, not High Magic. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 11:37:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Rajorke
Just because that none of the current wielders of High Magic are Dark Elves does not mean that they can not learn it...
And who are they going to have teach them this magic? |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 11:47:00
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quote:
And who are they going to have teach them this magic?
That is precisely the problem. However, IF they could find a teacher, I see no reason why they couldn't... LEoF states the netherese favoured 10th+ level magic over elven epic magic - and thats equal to High Magic . |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 11:55:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
That is precisely the problem. However, IF they could find a teacher, I see no reason why they couldn't...
It's your Realms. If you wish them to be able to learn it, go ahead. I just wish to hear the plausible back story on why an elf would teach such treasured magic to someone from a race that is viewed as traitors. |
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Rudar Dimble
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 12:55:58
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| And what if it's an innate ability? Then there's nothing to be taught. |
Jesus saves... and takes ½ damage |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 13:00:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Rudar Dimble
And what if it's an innate ability? Then there's nothing to be taught.
So all those Tel'Quessir who have had to learn it from other High Mages have been going about it wrong? They simply needed Corellon to bless them with this innate ability? |
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Rudar Dimble
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 13:05:07
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Rudar Dimble
And what if it's an innate ability? Then there's nothing to be taught.
So all those Tel'Quessir who have had to learn it from other High Mages have been going about it wrong? They simply needed Corellon to bless them with this innate ability?
Hey, I know s**t about the Tel'Quessir, it was just a suggestion   |
Jesus saves... and takes ½ damage |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 13:26:07
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quote:
I just wish to hear the plausible back story on why an elf would teach such treasured magic to someone from a race that is viewed as traitors.
Oh, its merely theoretical. Theoretically, one High mage could become possessed, has his alignment altered for whatever reason, or it COULD be that some ancient Dark Elf preserved knowledge of High Magic... ;)
Rudar: here's one for ya.
When the Dark Elves were defeated during the crown wars, nearly all Dark Elven High Mages were slain. However, a single one of them survived... simply because noone really knew of him yet. He took onto lichdom,kept on learning more and more, and eventually passed on this knowledge to his finest students.
After all the millenia, Dark Elven High Mages are still rare - there is only a handfull of them. One of them is the infamous Spider Sorcerer of Menzoberranzan. He dislikes the Spider Queen - but even more he despises the surface elves and the Seldarine, who had cast out all Dark Elves regardless of whether they followed the dark gods or not. Over his centuries-long research he stumbled upon the shadow weave, and through it perverted the ancient elven High Magic. His aim is clear: Cripple the self-righteous surface elves and their gods, and establish a dark elven realm on the surface once more. For this purpose he has allied himself with the City of Shade, and formed a devious plan to ensure Shadovar and Dark Elven superiority in all of Faer�n... |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Rudar Dimble
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 13:42:51
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Sounds great Darkheyr! It still requires some work to fit it into the quest, but nevertheless...a great idea! Although, I think I will have a hard time letting the PC's know exactly what's going on. On the other hand...they are going from level 1 to level 30, so there's plenty of time.
BTW: A bit off topic, but which novels cover the Crown Wars? |
Jesus saves... and takes ½ damage |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 14:07:16
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A few things to note:
3.x appears to have done away with training rules, that in effect when a level is gained this is because the character while adventuring self teaches themselves enough to add a class level. This of course by itself allow Drow to learn Epic Elven magic if that is the only factor, they certainly are not prevented from learning to cast other Epic spells.
Without the current source books I can only wonder what the difference between Epic magic and Elven Epic magic. If they are simalar enough it would make little difference as to which type of magic is learned.
It certainly is posible somewhere in new source all elves can cast Elven Epic now though I have not seen a cite for that yet.
As for what it used to be the dark elves evil and good were cut off from High (Elven) Magic this certainly also could have been chnged. Perhaps a good dark elf (and one source indicated all good elves worship Corellon) learned and was granted access to Elven Epic magic, then suffered an alignment change, or was tricked, forced to or other reason, taught Elven Epic magic to the evil Drow. This of course appears to waeken Corellon's control over Elven Epic magic, however could be an explaination as well.
In the end once the adventure starts a new history will be written for the realms in the home game. Seeing how this will happen the history before play starts certainly can be changed to set up the campaign. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Questions on FR-history for new quest
