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Rudar Dimble
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 07:51:08
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This is my first post here on the Candlekeep forums. I'm about to design a new quest and to do so I need some answers on a couple of questions on FR-history. May be you guys (and girls  ) could help?
1. What happened to Karsus after he casted his Karsus Avatar-spell in -339 DR?
My guess is he turned into stone and was somewhere in what now is known as Dire Wood, because I founded a Forgotten Realms Timeline which recorded Wulgreth (the wizard who was accidentaly turned into a lich by Karsus) destroying a city built near Karsus' stone dead form in -326 DR.
2. And what happened to Wulgreth after that? I found no record of him dying or something like that...
3. Who exactly was Jassin Aunglor? The guy who was buried alive, when (in an attempt of Jassin to kill the green wyrm Venom in -206 DR), the lair of the wyrm collapsed. And what has happened to his moonblade? Was is ever founded? And are any stats known about his moonblade or any description?
4. Is their any clue what happened to the lost Nether Scrolls after they were brought to the city of Karsus (-664 DR ) and what was written on them? The search for the stolen Nether Scrolls ended in -657 DR, but records I found don't tell that was because they were founded or people just gave up looking for them.
5. Part of my story is that I want to bring Karsus back alive and align him with the Red Wizards, who have found some of the Nether Scrolls. Another part is that Mystra is going to die (probably becuase of Karsus or something like that) and then the Seven Sisters take her place, all of them controlling one school of magic.Just one problem, there are 8 schools and only seven sisters. I was thinking of Elminster taking the last place, but it would be cool to have another woman take up the 8th school. Any suggestions?
6. How can I have Silverymoon destroyed/conquered and make it realistic? I was thinking of Alustriel becoming a Goddess (question 5), but that because Mystra died and magic has to be rearranged (8 goddesses instead of 1) the magical defenses of the city wouldn't work for a while. The Red Wizards take this opportunity to attack the city with the help of gnolls etc that are still in the neighbourhood of the city. Any suggestions or other ideas on this?
The quest will take the PC's from 1st upto 25th or 30th level.  Any hints, tips suggestions? I'm going to work out the exact plot in a few weeks, so any suggestions for the plot are welcome.
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 08:15:01
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1. Yes, he was petrified. His corpse turned into red stone and crashed into the direwood.
2. He was destroyed by Melegaunt Tanthul and his companions.
3. Some moon elf warrior, wouldnt know any details. The entire cave crashed down on him, and all the various sources I could find on a quick search either don't mention anything specific or claim him dead.
4. There were originally two sets of nether scrolls, 50 scrolls each. You can find detailed information on them in Lost Empires of Faer�n.
A complete set rests in Windsong Tower, Myth Drannor. The other set is still lost. A few are scattered about in a crypt or two, some have presumably been destroyed (some claim they circle the realms in the form of ancient platinum coins), but for the most aprt their whereabouts are unknown.
Its a fact that Netheril never regained a complete set, however. I cant remember offhand why the search stopped, I'll check once I'm home.
5 & 6. Hmmm... There are other factions you might take into consideration. Shade Enclave for sure. Larloch. Ioulaum.
As for the seven sisters, wasnt Qilue a chosen of both Mystra AND Eilistraee? I doubt the Moondancer would wish to loose her chosen *g* Alas, the portfolios of Necromancy and Divination would already be taken anyway - by Velsharoon and Savras. So that boils down the number already. I'd suspect Shar to make a grab for Mystras power as well, so you'd have a nice reason for inserting the Lady of Loss and her servants (*cough* Shade *cough*) too.
For assaulting Silverymoon - it is still heavily defended by conventional means. The Red Wizards would be of little use, since the magic problem affects them as well. However - the sharran shadow adepts, for example shadovar arcanists, would be entirely unaffected, allowing them to literally blast Silverymoon from the face of Faer�n with little to no resistance.
Please do share more details - it's not too different from an epic campaign I am planning right now, and some idea-input is never wrong. :)
And welcome to these Halls, fellow Scribe! |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
Edited by - Darkheyr on 22 Apr 2005 08:15:24 |
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Rudar Dimble
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 08:37:08
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1. And is this stone form of Karsus still there or somewhere else on Faerun?
2. Do you mean Melegaunt Tanthul, one of the Twelve Princes of Shade?
3. I was planning on making his moonblade a key weapon in the quest (for killing Karsus or something like that). Any ideas on this (stats etc)?
4. Hmm...it would be very cool to have to PC's gather all the platinum pieces of one of the scrolls as a part of the quest!
5. Okay, so the Seven Sisters taking over could be a problem. Well, this offers some options for the plot. But isn't Mystra capable of choosing her successors IF she knows she's going to die soon? And what about Elminster? Could he take over? A part of my plan is to strip Faerun of some of it's epic good-guys, to give the PC's more responsibility.
6. Cool thing you mention the Shades, because another idea I had was that the Shades were trying to lure some cities into the Plane of Shadow, because they became afraid of the Red Wizards, who have Karsus in their ranks now and because things are going bad again, with Mystra dying etc. Silverymoon could be the first city. Is this realistic?
7. Larloch? Ioulaum? Please explain... May be good to tell: we have been playing on the FR for a while now (I have been playing on it for some years now), but we always used only the lay-out of it and never really got into it's history and greater plots, etc.
I'd be happy to share with you! Any specific things you want to know? |
Jesus saves... and takes ½ damage |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 09:20:31
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1 & 2. Yep. They wanted the Karsestone, which by now is in the possession of the Lady of Loss, somewhere within the Plane of Shadows. The Karsestone is no less than Karsus' petrified corpse if I recall correctly, bleeding "whole magic" in liquid form. It was used to summon the City of Shade from the Plane of Shadows, then given over to Shar herself.
3. Moonblades are carried by the elven noble house leaders, and are VERY selective about their wielders. They were originally forged to make sure only worthy elves would become the leader of their house... And unworthy ones would be flamed alive. So that would be rather tricky. Don't know where the stats are right now, but they are out there.
4. Mind you, that was simply an idea some people had when reading that some thieves pummeled the scrolls into platinum heaps and sold them *g* But that'd make an interesting quest for sure.
5. Theoretically. But Shar has her ways of learning enemy plans (She IS the goddess of secrets, after all) and might not be too happy about it :) I suppose they could try taking over... But not without Shar and a swath of other hostile gods trying to interfere.
6. Mystra dying = bad? Hell no. It would immensively strengthen their position. And Karsus or no Karsus, Shade is still far from being threatened by Thay - so they have a lev42 wizard. So what? Telamont is only 7 levels behind, and he has a large number of other epic level casters at his side. In fact, I wouldnt be surprised if they either forged an alliance or blasted Thay to Kingdom Come the very moment weave magic fails.
As for Red Wizard targets: I'd imagine Aglarond would go first, swiftly followed by Silverymoon and Waterdeep. But as said, with both sides having their magic crippled... Unless they have been preparing for this, and learned the Shadow Weave from their friendly shadovar neighbor ^^
7. Larloch and Ioulaum, two netherese archwizards who were already ancient when Karsus was born. Ioulaum is almost 5000 years old by now, I believe.
Larloch currently resides in the Crypt of the Warlock, together with about 60 liches under his control, some are former netherese arcanists as well. He has numerous artifacts under his thumb, and access to just about every magical item you might think of. oh, he has ties to the Red Wizards too, having traded items and knowledge with Szass Tam on a few select occasions. He doesnt take kindly to intrusions, though...
Ioulaum's last "official" sighting is a while back. Even his student (Targa I believe) still resides somewhere in the North (Red Larch maybe? Not sure) and some people believe her to be a gold dragon due to her frequent use of Shapechange... Anyway, even she believes her old master dead.
In fact, Ioulaums soul now resides within an undead ilithid elder brain, which makes a pretty nifty combination together with his 40+ spellcaster levels :)
I'm sure these two would be HIGHLY skeptical as to Karsus' return.
On another note: Telamont Thanthul used to be known as Lord Shadow - one of Karsus' finest apprentices back in the days of the Empire of Magic.
Nothing specific right now... Just the plotline, maybe I can ste- errr, interprete something for my own campaign ;)
Hmmm, maybe SHAR plans to destroy Mystra, and employs both Shade and Thay...*ponders* And since she does have the Karsestone, she could resurrect Karsus too, maybe - she could offer him life again if he serves her? |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Rudar Dimble
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 09:43:04
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3. Yep, I know the moonblades are difficult to wield. NOw I think of it, it sin't a good idea to put it in, so I'll leave it out. Thanks for mentioning it...
4. Yes, this is definately going to be a part of the campaign
5. Okay, so could this be a good plot? Shar brings Karsus back to live and he is going to serve her. Both of them together with the Twelve Princes of Shade (including Telamont Tanthul, who is happy to see his master again) cast a spell/perform a ritual that causes Mystra to die. What then?
a. Could Shar just take her place?
b. What will the Seven Sisters, Elminster, Khelben Blackstaff, etc do?
c. And what about other organizations, like the Zhentarim? They will not be happy with it, will they?
d. And how are the Red Wizards going to be in all of this? Will they help Shar and her followers? And what if Shar decides to get rid of the Red Wizards?
e. And Larloch and Ioulaum? Will they act and how?
6. What can Shar do to force the Red Wizards into helping her (if she wants to destroy Silverymoon and Waterdeep)?
Remember this cmapaign will start at 1st level, so things can happen very slow. May be some sage or noble has learned of the Nether Scrolls being around in the for of platinum pieces and asks the PC's to search for them (off course not telling them they are parts of the Nether Scrolls)?
And what would be a good level to unleash hell upon Faerun   ?
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 10:11:41
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Death of a deity is a tricky thing. Slightly modified idea: a renegade elven high mage joins rank with the sharrans, and together with said people he performs that High Magic ritual to imprison a god - namely Mystra.
The Zhents won't be too happy about this at all. Shar has been trying to seduce Cyric to the Shadow Weave for a while now, to secure herself an ally. I suppose thats going to piss off Bane a great deal.
My guess: Its going to be Shar/Talona/Cyric and their respective organizations on one side, mayhaps allying with Red Wizards and/or Velsharoon, and the rest will be neutral to openly hostile. Reasons for allying will be simple: Shar has just proven that she is superior to Mystra, and she DOES control the shadow weave. It might well be that many Red Wizard - Shar worship is rather common in Thay anyway - will want to switch over on his own accord. Or even simpler: Help us or die  Getting rid of them is a plan for when all other foes are defeated and the sharrans licked their wounds I'd say. Maybe they could simply offer Thay control over the unapproachable east & such.
Shar wouldn't be able to take over that easily. She might try to grab for it though, just as others might. However, unlike others, she'll be prepared when the day comes.
Larloch and Ioulaum... Good question. So far, they havent shown any friendly tendencies towards Shade. Unsure what would happen if they see a realistical chance of Netheril being refounded... It might be an interesting twist if one or both of them play the good guys for a change *g* And since both of them know Karsus and Telamont pretty well, their experience would be invaluable.
The other white hats would of course try to foil the ritual, maybe try to break the alliances between the hostile factions. Open battle they would avoid due to obvious reasons, unless they can gang up on one of the BBEGs.
Sounds like a good start for a campaign to me. Maybe the wizard/sage is a sharran shadow adept, and after collecting the coins and teleporting them to Shade, he tries to destroy the PC's so nobody knows a thing? Or maybe he doesnt get to teleport them away, and the PC's must find out why every sharran, cyricist, red wizard and talona-worshipper on Faerun is hunting them :P
When to unleash? Level 15+ I'd say. |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Rudar Dimble
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 10:27:20
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The idea of imprisoning Mystra sounds very good. And it gives me an ending...the PC's ultimate goal is to free Mystra.
But how do I avoid the whole thing becoming a 'class of the titans', between the archwizards of ancient Netheril and the 'Cult of Shar' (as I will call everything that aligns with Shar for now), without the PC's playing a big part in this all?
And how do I avoid another Time of Troubles (gods fighting each other, because of what Shar started)?
It would be cool if one of the PC's would be a worshipper of Selune . May be that gives that player some advantages later on in the quest?
How would Bane act? May be the PC's get the opportunity at some point to go along with a group of Bane worshippers. Let's see what they will choose 
The wizard/sage sharran shadow adept is another very cool idea! Cheez, I'm going to keep this thread going for a while...you come up with great ideas and additions 
BTW: others can still join this discussion off course
So, if I understand it clearly, the Shadow Weave is a weave apart from the normal Weave, that is controlled by Mystra? And Shar controls the Shadow Weave? I haven't got the FR:CS here with me and I've never really got into the whole weave-thing, although I occasionaly throw in a dead or wild magic zone |
Jesus saves... and takes ½ damage |
Edited by - Rudar Dimble on 22 Apr 2005 10:30:29 |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 11:00:57
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Well, in the end, they'll be titans themselves :P At the beginning, just let them handle the "low-level" archwizards, so to speak. The Big Boys are too busy with each other for now. Nonetheless, their action will be important to the big picture. Maybe they have to steal the nether scrolls back ? :P
A Selunite would pull them into the story for sure I'd say, and lets them find allies easier. Thats about it tho, I think.
ToT is a non-issue - Shar wont interfer personnally, so the gods wouldnt war each other directly unless someone messes up and thus gets smacked by Ao.
Bane would either try to rally with the sharrans - after seperating cyric from them - or try to gain his best advantage, maybe even helping the white hats at first.
As for the Shadow Weave, I suggest doing a search here and on the WotC boards, theres tons of info around. Basically the SW consists of the "gaps" between the "strands" of the normal Weave. Its pretty good at necromancy, enchantment and illusions, but sucks at more physical schools like evocation, conjuration or transmutation. And one VERY important difference: An SW spell works in a Weave antimagic field, or dead magic field. And vice versa, of course. Rest you get pretty much right :) |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Rudar Dimble
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 11:15:48
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Okay, clear. I will do a research on the SW here and in my own books. Shouldn't be a problem, I guess.
Are there any stats known about Karsus, Larloch, and Ioulaum? Was Karsus evil? And don't they have any problem casting spells in modern times? For instance, Karsus won't be familiar with the 'learning spells per day'-thing, will he?
May be I could do something with Lady Arilain, the archwizard of Opus, that disappeared in -341 DR, when she was going to stop Karsus from casting Karsus' Avatar? She was never seen again. May be she had a scroll with her, specially written to stop Karsus. |
Jesus saves... and takes ½ damage |
Edited by - Rudar Dimble on 22 Apr 2005 11:16:53 |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 11:24:03
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Karsus? None official I believe. Larloch and Ioulaum have been given levels, but not statted out I think. And Karsus would adept quickly - as have all other netherese wizards done before. About Karsus being evil... Some sources I've read claimed he was a lich, but I'd have to check the netheril box, and LEoF.
Lady Arilain left to confront Karsus... So she is dead, by all likelyhood. But maybe mystran clergy know of her plans, and somehow figure out that she had means of stopping His Magnificent Megalomania? There could still be remnants of those means in the ruins of Opus... And guess who has to retrieve them? :D |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Rudar Dimble
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 11:37:04
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Yep, exactly what I had in mind about Lady Arilain. I think I've got it all figured out, I guess. Now I need to make up cool quests for the lower levels. From level 15+ I can throw the real bad guys at the PC's.
Any idea where Mystra will be imprisoned? On the Plane of Shadow? And how exactly? In a epic shadowy-thingy  ?
BTW: what is your epic quest about? You said it had similarities with mine... |
Jesus saves... and takes ½ damage |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 12:12:48
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Now where to imprison... I really have to read up on High Magic again *g* Mayhaps even on the material plane? A sharran temple or netherese complex maybe? So that they have to dig into the heart of the sharrans so to speak.
Similarities... Aye. Its little more than a draft, but basically its all about a sharran power grab. At first theres rumours of a new plague over in Maztica - one that cannot be overcome by conventional cure disease spells. In the beginning this will be a minor background information, with the only influence that one character will have troubles accessing his favourite maztican spice. Later on, the plague will suddenly appear in Faer�n as well, starting in Athkahtla and Waterdeep, as these are the two main port cities on the sword coast, quickly followed by others - Calimshan seems to be unaffected. Next to suffer is Silverymoon.
Simultanously, infighting among the Bane/Cyric factions within the Zhentarim suddenly stops, and a massive invasion of the Dalelands begins. Elminster has disappeared, Storm Silverhand barely escapes the Zhents more dead than alive. Qilue is busy defending eilistraeean settlements in the Forest of Mir from Drow assaults, and the Simbul has a hard time fighting a newly agressive Thay. Cormyr is under assault by goblinoids - led by a shadow dragon - and the North suffers from an imminent orc horde. Klauth, the great red wyrm, vanquishes a troop of orcs not too far from the Silver Marches, but is not to be seen after that. In the meanwhile, the Harpers suffer from an overactive Cult of the Dragon. Plus some other wars and stuff, the Shades (and the Nether Scrolls...hehe) are certainly going to play a role as well.
To make it short, noone will know its the sharrans until the end. Their aim is to take out the chosens, destroy as much of the mystran and selunite clergy as possible, and otherwise seriously destabilize or conquer the white hat aligned realms.
What none of Shars allies, or even most sharrans know, however, is that Shar plans no less than the return of the Shadevari... And all the rest is little more than a huge, world-shaking distraction. Together with them she hopes to return Toril to the shadow from Before, and thus, destroy just about every single god except herself - which means Goodbye Toril.
I will happily include some of the ideas in this thread...*rubs hands gleefully* |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Rudar Dimble
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 12:21:30
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Sounds like a very interesting quest!! What's the starting level? Please do give more details...they could give me ideas for (sub)plots in my campaign.
Mystra is going to be imprisoned in The City of Shade, which (as you know) is floating above Anauroch. For inside information the PC's need to find Larloch or Ioulaum...that brings them into the game.
But how exactly do you imprison a god? Will Mystra psysically be in the City of Shade? And how do they keep her there? Chains or a magical field? And how do you free her? |
Jesus saves... and takes ½ damage |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 12:29:32
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There is a High Magic ritual to do that. I'll have to check. I'm sure the fact that Shar can grant at least 10th level spells via shadow weave is going to help as well... But I simply dont know it all off hand. If the ritual doesnt work fine enough, just make something up :P
The group consists of 3 PC's currently involved in another epic campaign. By the time mine starts, they'll probably be around level 25, and thus well able to meddle with the big guys from the realms.
As soon as I got more details worked out, I'll glady share...
Another possibility for chaos would be rumours that Lathander is trying to redo his Dawn Cataclysm...hehehehe. |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Rudar Dimble
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 12:36:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
There is a High Magic ritual to do that. I'll have to check. I'm sure the fact that Shar can grant at least 10th level spells via shadow weave is going to help as well... But I simply dont know it all off hand. If the ritual doesnt work fine enough, just make something up :P
She can???? I really have to get into the SW-thing. But the reason I asked is that I don't know how to describe to the players what it looks like...an imprisoned goddess. Is she bound by chains, or by a magical field, or does she appear dead? And is she looking desperate, angry or....? I'm still in doubt on that. |
Jesus saves... and takes ½ damage |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 12:46:37
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It doesn't even have to be a corporeal presence. it might be the very essence of the goddess... Maybe add some shiny glowy thing too.
And yes, she can - with help from the Karsestone I believe. And theoretically, she is not bound to Mystras ban of 10th+ level magic anyway... |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Rudar Dimble
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 10:40:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
And theoretically, she is not bound to Mystras ban of 10th+ level magic anyway...
And with Mystra being imprisoned there's no way a SW-user couldn't cast a 10th level spell anyway. Mystra isn't there to ban those spells anymore. So, even a 'normal' wizard (who doesn't use the shadow weave) should be able to cast a 10th level spell, although he probably doesn't know he is able to. And with all the wild magic it's going to be very dangerous to do so.... |
Jesus saves... and takes ½ damage |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 11:07:54
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As I understand, Mystra changed the workings of the weave to ban 10th+ level magic... So it'd still be in effect. Not that it matters, though.
Pondering on the renegade elf...Elven High Shadow Magic? Hm! *scurries off to devise more sinister plots* |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 11:28:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Rudar Dimble
And with Mystra being imprisoned there's no way a SW-user couldn't cast a 10th level spell anyway. Mystra isn't there to ban those spells anymore.
If it's a tweak she made to the Weave, rather than a continuous monitor and decline of those spells, then it wouldn't matter if she was imprisoned or not -- the spells would still be blocked. |
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Rudar Dimble
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 11:52:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
As I understand, Mystra changed the workings of the weave to ban 10th+ level magic... So it'd still be in effect. Not that it matters, though.
Pondering on the renegade elf...Elven High Shadow Magic? Hm! *scurries off to devise more sinister plots*
Ok, so 10th level spells are still a no no...
quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
Pondering on the renegade elf...Elven High Shadow Magic? Hm! *scurries off to devise more sinister plots*
Yes, I was indeed planning on bringing in a renegade elf. Together with Karsus and the Twelve Princes of Shade, they should make a good team . Any ideas on the elf? Is there one in FR-history that I could use? Or should I make up one on my own (can be very cool, writing his background ) |
Jesus saves... and takes ½ damage |
Edited by - Rudar Dimble on 25 Apr 2005 11:55:24 |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 11:58:28
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It could be a Dark Elf! After all, they too knew High Magic once. Or maybe a bitter High Mage helping Shar if she promises to help him rebuild Evermeet and let all elves live their in peace?
Hmmm hmmm... I shall ponder this cautiously. |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Rudar Dimble
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 12:32:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
It could be a Dark Elf! After all, they too knew High Magic once. Or maybe a bitter High Mage helping Shar if she promises to help him rebuild Evermeet and let all elves live their in peace?
Hmmm hmmm... I shall ponder this cautiously.
A dark elf send by Matron Baenre
Or an elf kicked out of an elven community years ago, seeking revenge.
I'll give this some thought. Suggestions are very welcome off course! |
Jesus saves... and takes ½ damage |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 13:14:34
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Hmm last time I checked High Elven Magic could only be granted by Elven Gods and not all of Hig Magic was 10th level. Also all Drow even the few good ones can not used High Elven magic, perhaps because of the transformation and Desent.
That said some other races gaining access to High Elven Magic writtings did manage to design/invent 10th level spells.
As for Shadow Weave there is indication that 10th level is still posible, however Shar does not permit its use to avoid Mystra becoming aware of the Shadow Weave being used. The more powerful the magic the harder it is to keep its use secret.
Perhaps half Drow half surface elf could be used to gain access to Elven High Magic. Often such cross breeds would be shuned by both subraces so indeed could result in a rather bitter elf.
It should be noted it is rare, but not imposible, for a half elf to Use Elven High Magic.
Shar might pernit 10th SW magic if she is sure that Mystra is suffiently held captive and can not escape. Of course if rescued Mystra would indeed become more aware of the SW espcially if 10th level spells are used. This might effect the rest of your campaign with deities joining together to restict Shar and/or the SW to some extent. Perhaps even gain control of it. |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 13:29:38
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High Magic is Arcane. Thus it has nothing to do with any gods whatsoever. And in fact, no High Magic is 10th level - its Epic Magic. The Nether Scrolls contained information about 10th+ level magic, which is why the old netherese turned away from epic magic as taught by their elven allies. (Source: LEoF)
Thus, its also well possible that Drow can wield High Magic.
Plus, as far as I know, Shar CAN and DOES grant 10th level magic via the Karsestone - but probably only to a selected group of people. |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 13:54:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
High Magic is Arcane. Thus it has nothing to do with any gods whatsoever. And in fact, no High Magic is 10th level - its Epic Magic. The Nether Scrolls contained information about 10th+ level magic, which is why the old netherese turned away from epic magic as taught by their elven allies. (Source: LEoF)
"CORELLON LARETHIAN Elven God of Magic and Elven Magic, "
As for the Nether Scrolls, I had already indicated that humans/other races learned 10th level spells from Elven writtings. Oh BTW if Gods have nothing to do with arcane magic why is Shar and Mystra controling it?
quote:
Thus, its also well possible that Drow can wield High Magic.
A while back this question can up in I believe ED Greedwood questions, that provided a different answer concerning Drow then what you say.
Also Epic magic does not = (or at least did not) High Magic or 10th level spells. The closest they get to 10th level is this.
" Epic spells have no fixed level. However, for purposes of Concentration checks, spell resistance, and other possible situations where spell level is important, epic spells are all treated as if they were 10th-level spells. "
Does not say they are 10th level just because of Epic casting the game design makes them more effective then 9th level to rsolve effects.
Only other point, I did qualify my last post based on what I had last checked which is not always current as rule alterations do occur from time to time. Of course the history changes from time to time as well. |
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Rudar Dimble
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 14:21:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Shar might pernit 10th SW magic if she is sure that Mystra is suffiently held captive and can not escape. Of course if rescued Mystra would indeed become more aware of the SW espcially if 10th level spells are used. This might effect the rest of your campaign with deities joining together to restict Shar and/or the SW to some extent. Perhaps even gain control of it.
Thanks for your contribution, Kentinal. Some interesting things you're pointing out in your post. Do you think if Shar would permit 10th level spells for the destruction of Silverymoon, while Mystra is being held prisoner by Shar, Ao would intervene? Or may be some other gods would attack Shar openly? Because that's something I don't want to happen. The worshippers should fight eachother, not the gods themselves. |
Jesus saves... and takes ½ damage |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 15:07:43
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As long as she keeps it small scale as she has until now, I don't see any problem.
quote:
"CORELLON LARETHIAN Elven God of Magic and Elven Magic, "
As for the Nether Scrolls, I had already indicated that humans/other races learned 10th level spells from Elven writtings. Oh BTW if Gods have nothing to do with arcane magic why is Shar and Mystra controling it?
That doesn't mean that Corellon has any influence whatsoever about who is casting High Magic. Velsharoon can't ban anyone from Necromancy either. Only Mystra can ban someone from the Weave - however, she is not allowed to do so by Ao - and Shar likewise from the Shadow Weave. I'd suspect if Shar gets sufficient use of her SW, she'll get the same decree. Differ between the goddesses of the weaves and some more generic magic deity.
Arcane magic is arcane magic. Independend from spells granted by a deity. Otherwise you could be sure that no Mystra-foe would cast spells unless he is a shadow weave user - which is the exception, not the rule.
Thus we are forced to conclude that Corellon doesn't have to give his OK to High Magic.
quote:
A while back this question can up in I believe ED Greedwood questions, that provided a different answer concerning Drow then what you say.
As much as I prefer Master Greenwoods plans over WotC in 9 out of 10 cases, his opinions are his own - and completely unofficial. He also puts Larloch at 46th level, which is FAR more likely and realistical, IMHO, but that doesn't change the fact that he officially is only a 26th level wizard.
Apart from that, I'll still have to look it up - thanks for mentioning it :)
quote:
Also Epic magic does not = (or at least did not) High Magic or 10th level spells. The closest they get to 10th level is this.
" Epic spells have no fixed level. However, for purposes of Concentration checks, spell resistance, and other possible situations where spell level is important, epic spells are all treated as if they were 10th-level spells. "
Does not say they are 10th level just because of Epic casting the game design makes them more effective then 9th level to rsolve effects.
As a matter of fact, due to the entire Mystras Ban thing conflicting with Epic Magic, the ruling is now as follows:
- Elves knew High Magic, which equals Epic Spells in terms of game mechanics. It doesn't have anything to do with 10th+ level magic.
- The netherese started learning epic magic from the elves of Earlann, until they found the nether scrolls in the ruins of Aryvaandar - these scrolls are NOT of elven origin by the way.
- With help from the scrolls, netherese arcanists learned 10th+ level magic, discarding elven lore because of its apparent inferiority.
- Karsus casts the only known 12th level spell. Mystryl bites the dust, magic goes haywire. Mystra reincarnates and from that day on bans 10th+ level magic. High Magic and other Epic Magic remains uninfluenced by this.
This new take is from Lost Empires of Faer�n and pretty much the official ruling now. It also doesnt conflict with anything except that Epic Magic version of "Karsus' Avatar", since High Magic wasn't influenced by Mystras Ban even in 2E.
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silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Rudar Dimble
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 15:13:39
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So, what's epic magic and what's high magic? I only got to know these terms a few days ago and after reading your posts, I still can't tell the difference... |
Jesus saves... and takes ½ damage |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 15:27:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Rudar Dimble
So, what's epic magic and what's high magic? I only got to know these terms a few days ago and after reading your posts, I still can't tell the difference...
Well unless they redefine the terms.
Epic magic that is cast by Epic level casters of spells.
High Magic, is Elven Magic.
Side Note to Darkheyr: I knew it was discussed however, I misrecalled where. The Disscussion took place at: Forgotten Realms Journals/General Forgotten Realms Chat/High Magic and unless the source above you cite from changed Drow access, they still do not have it. |
Edited by - Kentinal on 25 Apr 2005 15:45:34 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 17:44:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
That doesn't mean that Corellon has any influence whatsoever about who is casting High Magic. Velsharoon can't ban anyone from Necromancy either. Only Mystra can ban someone from the Weave - however, she is not allowed to do so by Ao - and Shar likewise from the Shadow Weave. I'd suspect if Shar gets sufficient use of her SW, she'll get the same decree. Differ between the goddesses of the weaves and some more generic magic deity.
Mystra is allowed to ban people from the Weave... She's just not allowed to do it to deities.
quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
Thus we are forced to conclude that Corellon doesn't have to give his OK to High Magic.
I don't see how you came to this conclusion. If he doesn't have to clear it, then why can't drow use it?
quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
This new take is from Lost Empires of Faer�n and pretty much the official ruling now. It also doesnt conflict with anything except that Epic Magic version of "Karsus' Avatar", since High Magic wasn't influenced by Mystras Ban even in 2E.
The conflict does exist -- some spells that were 10th level, and therefore Banned, are now epic spells. Proctiv's Move Mountain is a prime example of this. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Apr 2005 17:46:17 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 18:19:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The conflict does exist -- some spells that were 10th level, and therefore Banned, are now epic spells. Proctiv's Move Mountain is a prime example of this.
Repeat after me "Proctiv's Move Mountain was never a 10th level spell, it was an Epic spell" Say this 100 times ;-)
A retoractice conversion or Editor error.
New source material overrides older source material, even if it does not make sense. |
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Questions on FR-history for new quest
