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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 14:23:30
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| *shrug* As 3E works, Corellon can NOT simply cut someone off from High magic since its Arcane, and he doesn't control the weave. |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 15:08:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
*shrug* As 3E works, Corellon can NOT simply cut someone off from High magic since its Arcane, and he doesn't control the weave.
You keep saying this, do you have a citation?
Perhaps you can also explain the difference between Epic Magic and Elven Epic Magi.
Also please remembe, unless this has also changed, elves are part of the Weave. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 16:01:11
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Mystra can cut someone off the Weave because she controls it. High Magic doesn't use another type of Weave. Corellon doesn't control the Weave so he can't cut it off since High Magic is arcane, not divine. There is no citation needed because thats simply how D&D magic works.
Furthermore, neither Magic of Faerūn nor Lost Empires state that he can, and these two are the ONLY valid resources for canon lore regarding High Magic nowadays, and LEoF only where it would conflict with MoF. On the other hand, 3E sources specifically state that Mystra and Shar can deny access to their fields of magic. However, nowhere does it say Corellon can do this with regard to High Magic - so he simply can't.
And Game Rule Wise there is no difference between epic and high magic.
....and elven arent part of the weave. They have a knack for magic, but they are NOT part of the weave unless you can find me a citation (3E, please) that says otherwise :) |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 17:09:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
Furthermore, neither Magic of Faerūn nor Lost Empires state that he can, and these two are the ONLY valid resources for canon lore regarding High Magic nowadays, and LEoF only where it would conflict with MoF. On the other hand, 3E sources specifically state that Mystra and Shar can deny access to their fields of magic. However, nowhere does it say Corellon can do this with regard to High Magic - so he simply can't.
You forget one basic rule. Canon in prior Edition controls, unless superceded. Like a 10th level spell that was banned, has returned as an Epic spell and is not banned.
quote:
....and elven arent part of the weave. They have a knack for magic, but they are NOT part of the weave unless you can find me a citation (3E, please) that says otherwise :)
http://myth-drannor.net/DlabraddathNet/z-Cormanthyr/Moonblades.htm
might not be good enough for you however here is a quote for you to consider.
" The blade draws on the inherent magic of the elven owner, that part of their being that is a part of the Weave. " |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 18:10:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
Mystra can cut someone off the Weave because she controls it. High Magic doesn't use another type of Weave. Corellon doesn't control the Weave so he can't cut it off since High Magic is arcane, not divine. There is no citation needed because thats simply how D&D magic works.
Corellon is the elven god of magic. So he obviously has some say in how elves use magic... Either he filters Mystra's Weave to allow elven access to it, or he's got to basically give his blessing to allow someone to use it. Either way, he's got some control over elven use of magic.
Taking this a bit further, it would mean that wood, sun, and moon elves are the only ones able to use High Magic because Corellon won't let anyone else use it.
Further... If drow could access it, why in thousands of years have no drow High Mages arisen? You're not going to convince me that someone able to use a particular kind of magic, who knows about, and who has reason to want to use it, isn't going to research it and find a way.
Heck, take it a bit further... If Corellon is, as you imply, not part of the picture, then why can't half-elves learn High Magic? Or humans? We know that these races can't use High Magic...
So either Corellon is specifically disallowing it, or there's some quality of wood, sun, and moon elves that ensures only they can learn High Magic. Either way, the drow are left out. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 18:26:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
Mystra can cut someone off the Weave because she controls it. High Magic doesn't use another type of Weave. Corellon doesn't control the Weave so he can't cut it off since High Magic is arcane, not divine. There is no citation needed because thats simply how D&D magic works.
Corellon is the elven god of magic. So he obviously has some say in how elves use magic... Either he filters Mystra's Weave to allow elven access to it, or he's got to basically give his blessing to allow someone to use it. Either way, he's got some control over elven use of magic.
The basic argument we face is that the 2nd and prior history does not matter at all. That because Darkheyr has not seen any 3.x product that says Corellon has any control over Elven magic. The basic problem would appear to be that if you can not see it in 3.x it just use what 3.x says. That the Goddess of Magic controls the Weave she controls all of the Weave even Elven Weave.
quote:
Taking this a bit further, it would mean that wood, sun, and moon elves are the only ones able to use High Magic because Corellon won't let anyone else use it.
This also was rejected, despite refences posted.
quote:
Further... If drow could access it, why in thousands of years have no drow High Mages arisen? You're not going to convince me that someone able to use a particular kind of magic, who knows about, and who has reason to want to use it, isn't going to research it and find a way.
Heck, take it a bit further... If Corellon is, as you imply, not part of the picture, then why can't half-elves learn High Magic? Or humans? We know that these races can't use High Magic...
Well one half-elven was able to use a moonblade, which based on most recent information I have indicates, at least this one, has part of the Weave within her. This might have something to do with Elven blood, but more likely Corellon granting a special dispensation.
quote:
So either Corellon is specifically disallowing it, or there's some quality of wood, sun, and moon elves that ensures only they can learn High Magic. Either way, the drow are left out.
So far, until Darkheyr can provide a citation indicating other wise. A thing declined so far to do.
I do not believe Darkheyr belief will be changed by what has been posted so far. At this point all I am asking is for any new canon that supercedes the existing Realmslore.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 18:36:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal[/i]The basic argument we face is that the 2nd and prior history does not matter at all. That because Darkheyr has not seen any 3.x product that says Corellon has any control over Elven magic. The basic problem would appear to be that if you can not see it in 3.x it just use what 3.x says. That the Goddess of Magic controls the Weave she controls all of the Weave even Elven Weave.
Then he needs to read page 8 of Magic of Faerun. :) "The head of the elven pantheon is also the deity of elven magic."
It's like this. Mystra is the Weave on Faerun/Toril/Fr's Prime and or crystal sphere, depending on what book you want to read, but Corellon and her have an agreement that he is allowed, and his elven people, are allowed to use the Weave to access thier spells. But he, as the god of elven magic, has complete control over elven high magic and elven magic. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 28 Apr 2005 18:38:16 |
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Rudar Dimble
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 19:04:41
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal[/i]The basic argument we face is that the 2nd and prior history does not matter at all. That because Darkheyr has not seen any 3.x product that says Corellon has any control over Elven magic. The basic problem would appear to be that if you can not see it in 3.x it just use what 3.x says. That the Goddess of Magic controls the Weave she controls all of the Weave even Elven Weave.
Then he needs to read page 8 of Magic of Faerun. :) "The head of the elven pantheon is also the deity of elven magic."
It's like this. Mystra is the Weave on Faerun/Toril/Fr's Prime and or crystal sphere, depending on what book you want to read, but Corellon and her have an agreement that he is allowed, and his elven people, are allowed to use the Weave to access thier spells. But he, as the god of elven magic, has complete control over elven high magic and elven magic.
Ok, but if I apply this rule to my quest, this doesn't mean that an elven wizard can still cast spells as if there was nothing wrong (while Mystra is captured), right? |
Jesus saves... and takes Ā½ damage |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 19:10:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Rudar Dimble
Ok, but if I apply this rule to my quest, this doesn't mean that an elven wizard can still cast spells as if there was nothing wrong (while Mystra is captured), right?
Not sure what your asking cause I didn't read all of this thread but I'd say as long as Mystra is alive and there isn't another ToT's then an elven wizard could still cast spells. If Mystra died or there was another ToT's then either there would be no magic, until she was replaced, or magic would go wild again. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Rudar Dimble
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 19:17:03
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Not sure what your asking cause I didn't read all of this thread but I'd say as long as Mystra is alive and there isn't another ToT's then an elven wizard could still cast spells. If Mystra died or there was another ToT's then either there would be no magic, until she was replaced, or magic would go wild again.
Well, the story is that Mystra is imprisoned by some Shar worshippers. I have already ruled that Faerun will be one big wild magic zone. Just checking whether this thing about Corellon changes anything about that for elven wizards |
Jesus saves... and takes Ā½ damage |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 19:18:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Rudar Dimble
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Then he needs to read page 8 of Magic of Faerun. :) "The head of the elven pantheon is also the deity of elven magic."
It's like this. Mystra is the Weave on Faerun/Toril/Fr's Prime and or crystal sphere, depending on what book you want to read, but Corellon and her have an agreement that he is allowed, and his elven people, are allowed to use the Weave to access thier spells. But he, as the god of elven magic, has complete control over elven high magic and elven magic.
Ok, but if I apply this rule to my quest, this doesn't mean that an elven wizard can still cast spells as if there was nothing wrong (while Mystra is captured), right?
You can apply what rules you desire to your campaign.
As for how elves will be effected is also up to you.
If you accept elves are part of the weave and Corellon controls Elven magic, the Elven magic users will either not be effected or at least not as effected as other races when trying to cast spells. Also that only aproved Elves can cast High (Elven Epic) Magic.
If you decide that Mystra being taken out of the picture causes all Weave to result in wild magic, then the elves have no better advantage then any other user of the Weave.
As already noted, you certainly can allow Drow and other non approved sub-races to use High (Elven Epic) magic. If there really is no difference between Elven Epic Magic and Epic Magic, there is little difference in what it is called. In part the ongoing discussion is to clarify what the history is to aid you to decide what history you will use and what you will change. In the end it is up to you. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Rudar Dimble
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 19:25:03
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Well, it would certainly be a nice touch to let elves cast their magic like there was nothing wrong!  |
Jesus saves... and takes Ā½ damage |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 19:51:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Rudar Dimble
Well, the story is that Mystra is imprisoned by some Shar worshippers. I have already ruled that Faerun will be one big wild magic zone. Just checking whether this thing about Corellon changes anything about that for elven wizards
Then elves would still be effected because Mystra is still the main source of magic in FR. If she is gone, dead, etc, then magic wouldn't exist until she, and her Weave, is replaced. Corellon still controls elven magic but elves still have to use Mystra's Weave to cast thier magic. So it boils down to this: Mystra has more influence in FR in terms of magic then any of the other deities of magic since they, and thier races, have to use HER Weave.
But as was said, its your campaign and setting so of course you can change this to suit your needs. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 28 Apr 2005 19:53:01 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 20:18:53
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Then elves would still be effected because Mystra is still the main source of magic in FR. If she is gone, dead, etc, then magic wouldn't exist until she, and her Weave, is replaced. Corellon still controls elven magic but elves still have to use Mystra's Weave to cast thier magic.
The base theory, I think, is that the Weave will still exist, just that Mystra will not be moderating it. Thus the reason that magic goes wild zone as opposed to dead zone. If Corellon controls Elven magic as source indicated, it is posible that he could take part or all of the wildness out of it. There again Elven deities are Charotic so moderation might not be all that good.
Edit: If my quick check is correct. Corellon is Divine rank 19 and Mystra a mere 18. True the protfolio are not the same, however argument can be made Elven magic is controled by Corellon, because of the lower rank of Mystra. *wink*
Still up to the DM. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 28 Apr 2005 20:34:26 |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 21:34:04
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That Divine Rank is from Greyhawk *cough*
In any case, Corellon cant control crap about the Weave. Sorry, but with Shar and Mystra its specifically mentioned - with Corellon its not. Just like Velsharoon cant block Necromancy from some wizard he dislikes.
The only one to block spells from the Weave is Mystra, period. No matter the portfolio of other deities. Anything you rule beyond that is a house rule, nothing more.
Sorry, but just that PRESTIGE CLASS requirements rule out all except a specific array of elven subraces doesn't have to mean more than that its statistically impossible for anyone else to be taught High Magic. The High Magic entry in MoF doesnt suggest any elfblood requirement either. It simply says its only taught to elves.
You are making up assumptions, sorry. |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 21:39:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
That Divine Rank is from Greyhawk *cough*
cite?
If you are cliaming F&P is GH only, why is Eilistraee in it?
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 21:40:25
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And on a slight addendum, the PrC requires approval from other High Mages. If this talent is "innate", one would wonder why an Elf couldnt discover it himself... Or how did the first elves discover it? If you ask me, it all screams RACIAL FLAIR requirements, not actually elfblood related ones.
Not to mention that the description puts Epic Magic and High Magic as near-identicals. |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 21:48:06
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| Because the Divine Rank isnt in F&P, but in Deities & Demigods... |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 21:48:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
And on a slight addendum, the PrC requires approval from other High Mages. If this talent is "innate", one would wonder why an Elf couldnt discover it himself... Or how did the first elves discover it? If you ask me, it all screams RACIAL FLAIR requirements, not actually elfblood related ones.
Not to mention that the description puts Epic Magic and High Magic as near-identicals.
I have repeatedly asked you for citations, you have been provided citations from me and others.
The creation of Elves was from Corellon, if you acept that creation theory. If not where did they come from? |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 21:50:39
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They come from Faerie, a world totally independant from the Forgotten Realms. There Corellon might have been all powerful over Magic, on Toril he can only do what Mystra allows him to.
Citation? You are trying to prove something here. I am simply claiming that there IS no citation that actually supports your claim except 2E lore. And as good some 2E stuff is, here it conflicts with 3E. All other deities have special things mentioned, like being able to cut someone off from magic. Corellon doesnt. So he cant. Simple as that. |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
Edited by - Darkheyr on 28 Apr 2005 21:52:00 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 23:52:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
That Divine Rank is from Greyhawk *cough*
In any case, Corellon cant control crap about the Weave. Sorry, but with Shar and Mystra its specifically mentioned - with Corellon its not. Just like Velsharoon cant block Necromancy from some wizard he dislikes.
The only one to block spells from the Weave is Mystra, period. No matter the portfolio of other deities. Anything you rule beyond that is a house rule, nothing more.
Sorry, but just that PRESTIGE CLASS requirements rule out all except a specific array of elven subraces doesn't have to mean more than that its statistically impossible for anyone else to be taught High Magic. The High Magic entry in MoF doesnt suggest any elfblood requirement either. It simply says its only taught to elves.
You are making up assumptions, sorry.
You are making assumptions as well. And the High Magic entry in Magic of Faerūn is about three paragraphs long -- it's hardly what I'd call a definitive source on this topic.
Tell me this: if Corellon is (as is stated in 3E) in control of elven magic, then why would he not be able to regulate who among the elven races accesses it?
Oh, and since you brought up assumptions... You seem to be assuming that because drow are technically elven, they can use High Magic. This is not stated anywhere, so you are making an assumption yourself. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 23:55:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
Citation? You are trying to prove something here. I am simply claiming that there IS no citation that actually supports your claim except 2E lore. And as good some 2E stuff is, here it conflicts with 3E. All other deities have special things mentioned, like being able to cut someone off from magic. Corellon doesnt. So he cant. Simple as that.
Where is your citation backing up that assertion? If you're going to call us on assumptions, don't make them yourself. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 00:19:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
Because the Divine Rank isnt in F&P, but in Deities & Demigods...
Dive Rank certainly is listed in F&P see: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20020503a
"Divine Rank: 7"
also you might want to look at: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/articles/lg20030521deitiessearch
"Living Greyhawk Deities"
You might motice the FR Godess of Magic is not listed and that while Corellon Larethian is listed he is listed as "Greater Deity of Elves, Magic, Music, Arts & Crafts, War" as oposed to being listed as the God of Elven Magic.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 00:35:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
You might motice the FR Godess of Magic is not listed and that while Corellon Larethian is listed he is listed as "Greater Deity of Elves, Magic, Music, Arts & Crafts, War" as oposed to being listed as the God of Elven Magic.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding this part but thats what he is in FR as well...... Of course he has more portfolios in FR then just the above ones. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 29 Apr 2005 00:37:00 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 00:51:09
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
You might motice the FR Godess of Magic is not listed and that while Corellon Larethian is listed he is listed as "Greater Deity of Elves, Magic, Music, Arts & Crafts, War" as oposed to being listed as the God of Elven Magic.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding this part but thats what he is in FR as well...... Of course he has more portfolios in FR then just the above ones.
Well in GH they are "Rank, areas of concern" instead of portfolios.
The one difference I was trying to convey is that in GH Corellon is not limited/listed to "Elven Magic" as a portfolio.
This being in part a followup to claim that F&P did not include Dive Rank that the 19 rank was Greyhawk. That Corellon does appear to have the Divine Rank of 19 in FR as the entries do not match.
Also of course Corellon would appear to be 19 ranks above a Mystra individual in GH whon is not listed at all in the provided GH list, as oposed to him having one divine rank better in FR.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 06:22:02
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*sigh*
Just because Eilistraees rank is listed doesnt mean a thing. Lolths is listed as well. Together with a bunch of other deities. But CORELLONS divine rank isn't in F&P, so that DR 19 isn't Greyhawk. Stop nitpicking my words please, I didnt claim that there was no DR's at all in F&P.
And his Portfolio is "magic" in FR too - not just "elven magic". But racial pantheons usually overlap their portfolios with the regular pantheon.
quote:
quote:
Citation? You are trying to prove something here. I am simply claiming that there IS no citation that actually supports your claim except 2E lore. And as good some 2E stuff is, here it conflicts with 3E. All other deities have special things mentioned, like being able to cut someone off from magic. Corellon doesnt. So he cant. Simple as that.
Where is your citation backing up that assertion? If you're going to call us on assumptions, don't make them yourself.
O.o
Mystra has it listed. Shar has it listed. Do you deny that? I can look up exact references, but those are well known facts. They can deny access to their weaves. Corellon hasn't listed anything even close, so he can't do it. Just like Savras can't cut someone off from divination. If you are asking me for a citation claiming specifically that Corellon CANT... Well, you show me a citation that claims Shar cant turn Mystra into an orange anytime she likes to, bypassing any immunity she might have.
Trying to disprove things like that is a fallacy. Its like asking someone to disprove god's existance.
Now answer me a few questions:
Where does it say that Savras can block someones divination?
Where does it say that Velsharoon can block Necromancy?
And if the above two cant block their schools of magic - why by the gods should Corellon be able to block elven magic? |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
Edited by - Darkheyr on 29 Apr 2005 07:15:51 |
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Melfius
Senior Scribe
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 10:06:27
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That's one point I wanted to bring up - You don't need to have all seven of the Seven Sisters become deities should Mystra die. Qilué could remain mortal as 2 of the schools of magic already have deities: Velsharoon for Necromancy and Savras for Divination.
Also, remember: Elminster does not in a any way shape or form want to become a deity. Period. He has had his chance(s) and turned it (them) down. |
Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 11:31:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
And if the above two cant block their schools of magic - why by the gods should Corellon be able to block elven magic?
Because it is established fact that a deity can deny mortals access to that deity's portfolio. It's not spelled out for all the gods, sure, but it is a fact. If Selūne was irked at someone, she could keep the moon from shining on them and thwart any attempts to navigate. Chauntea could keep stuff from growing on their lands. And so on and so forth.
So even though it isn't stated, yes, Velsharoon could keep someone from using necromancy and Savras could keep someone from using divination. Since they both serve Mystra, she could override them -- but if she doesn't, then Bob the Blasphemous Necromancer and Sam the Apostate Seer would be out of luck (so to speak). |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 11:41:58
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| You got a citation for that? If so, I rest my case on them being able to. There would still remain the question of being allowed to except in cases of emergency, however... |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 13:36:01
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| *sigh* Thats what I meant about nitpicking. I was refering to CORELLONS divine rank, and you cant tell me its that unclear to see. We were never discussing any other DR than Corellons at that point. |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Questions on FR-history for new quest
