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Twilight Herald
Acolyte
Australia
14 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Jun 2004 : 17:22:59
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quote:
Originally posted by hammer of Moradin
I always thought of Drow and orcs the other way around. Drow intentionally turned to the evil god(s) they worship and created a society around them.
Not entirely true. The majority of the pre-Descent dark elves had turned to the worship of Lolth and Ghaunadaur, embracing these deities and their evil rites in order to gain advantage in the Crown Wars. However, many dark elves at the time were still good-aligned Eilistraee worshippers, and a proportion of Vhaeraun's followers would have been neutral, then as now. These comparitively "innocent" dark elves were still punished by the Curse and the enforced Descent. So not all of the first generations of "true drow" were evil or deserving of their punishment. Which is why I think it is critical that redemption be a viable option for drow characters, to alleviate some of the ancestral injustices of Corellon's Curse. |
Edited by - Twilight Herald on 02 Jun 2004 17:29:54 |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2004 : 17:26:04
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quote:
My rules are of course inspired by the creator of orcs (and of what we think of as elves and dwarves), J.R.R. Tolkien and his writings in The Hobbit, The Lords of the Rings and, most of all, The Silmarillion.
I am aware that Tolkien's Middle-earth has no direct relation to FR, but as default I follow his basic set-up, unless I am told otherwise by FR. The origins of orcs in FR have never been fleshed out, other than Gruumsh vs. Corellon, so I stick with that.
Now i remember where i heard it, in the silmarillion. I didn't know about the goblins...  |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2004 : 17:33:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight Herald
quote:
Originally posted by hammer of Moradin
I always thought of Drow and orcs the other way around. Drow intentionally turned to the evil god(s) they worship and created a society around them.
Not entirely true. The majority of the pre-Descent dark elves had turned to the worship of Lolth and Ghaunadaur, embracing these deities and their evil rites in order to gain advantage in the Crown Wars. However, many dark elves at the time were still good-aligned Eilistraee worshippers, and a proportion of Vhaeraun's followers would have been neutral, then as now. These comparitively "innocent" dark elves were still punished by the Curse and the enforced Descent. So not all of the first generations of "true drow" were evil or deserving of their punishment. Which is why I think it is critical that redemption be a viable option for drow characters, to alleviate some of the ancestral injustices of Corellon's Curse.
Hence why Eilistraee voluntrarily Descended (hmm... never used it as a verb. Doesn't sound right, does it?)
quote:
Originally posted by Gion
quote:
My rules are of course inspired by the creator of orcs (and of what we think of as elves and dwarves), J.R.R. Tolkien and his writings in The Hobbit, The Lords of the Rings and, most of all, The Silmarillion.
I am aware that Tolkien's Middle-earth has no direct relation to FR, but as default I follow his basic set-up, unless I am told otherwise by FR. The origins of orcs in FR have never been fleshed out, other than Gruumsh vs. Corellon, so I stick with that.
Now i remember where i heard it, in the silmarillion. I didn't know about the goblins...
You wouldn't have - goblins were just another name for Middle-Earth orcs. It was me that saw how I could adapt goblins in there, if they are a separate species. |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
Edited by - Sarelle on 02 Jun 2004 17:36:08 |
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hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2004 : 18:21:11
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quote:
Not entirely true. The majority of the pre-Descent dark elves had turned to the worship of Lolth and Ghaunadaur, embracing these deities and their evil rites in order to gain advantage in the Crown Wars. However, many dark elves at the time were still good-aligned Eilistraee worshippers, and a proportion of Vhaeraun's followers would have been neutral, then as now. These comparitively "innocent" dark elves were still punished by the Curse and the enforced Descent. So not all of the first generations of "true drow" were evil or deserving of their punishment. Which is why I think it is critical that redemption be a viable option for drow characters, to alleviate some of the ancestral injustices of Corellon's Curse.
But, they did it to themselves. Yes, there were some who did not embrace the evil to gain an advantage, however many did thereby creating the new Drow society which is the majority. The "innocent" Drow paid for it, true, but like you say, this may be their redemption.
quote:
IMC, orcs are a corruption of elves, goblins a corruption of dwarves, and men corrupt themselves. Those are the rules I've always followed in classic fantasy settings (particularly D&D).
Drow, even though they have many differences, are elves.
My rules are of course inspired by the creator of orcs (and of what we think of as elves and dwarves), J.R.R. Tolkien and his writings in The Hobbit, The Lords of the Rings and, most of all, The Silmarillion.
I am aware that Tolkien's Middle-earth has no direct relation to FR, but as default I follow his basic set-up, unless I am told otherwise by FR. The origins of orcs in FR have never been fleshed out, other than Gruumsh vs. Corellon, so I stick with that.
This is where it is open to interpretation, unless someone has different information specific to the Realms. I've always thought of orcs and goblins as barbaric tribes. They can be civilized tribes with villages or even towns, mostly dark caves, or they can be neanderthal type creatures that prey on others or themselves. In some way they are corrupt as they eat other intelligent races. That is the way they have been presented in the Realms, but couldn't that also be changed? Aren't they redeemable also? |
"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2004 : 18:37:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarelle
The origins of orcs in FR have never been fleshed out, other than Gruumsh vs. Corellon, so I stick with that.
Didn't the orcs arrive in the Realms during the Orcgate Wars? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2004 : 19:02:39
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| Don't forget there are good aligned orcs as well. The Ondonti that venerate Eldath and they are farmers! |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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AlacLuin
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2004 : 19:08:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Didn't the orcs arrive in the Realms during the Orcgate Wars?
That was only the gray orcs, the mountain orcs, well just seamed to show up there, I think (I may be/probobly am wrong) Malar had something to do with them sowing up in Faerun |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2004 : 00:16:00
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quote:
Originally posted by AlacLuin
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Didn't the orcs arrive in the Realms during the Orcgate Wars?
That was only the gray orcs, the mountain orcs, well just seamed to show up there, I think (I may be/probobly am wrong) Malar had something to do with them sowing up in Faerun
Really? In Races of Faerūn it leaves the mountain orcs' origins completely unspecified.
And I don't mean that orcs are utterly irredeemable. I wasn't as clear as I should have been in post about creatures that were 'made' to be an alignment: I believe that ther is no such thing as a race of monsters that are ALL [specify evil/good/lawful/chaotic/big/small etc.], excpet for fiends, celestials etc. and any creature where every generation evil (or whatever) is magically fresh in their makeup.
Olodonti are an example of this. However, using Tolkien's example until proven otherwise, I believe the original orcs (what I call 'black orcs') of the Realms would have been wholly evil - and VERY nasty, just as I believe the original Fey elves from the Plane of Faerie were pretty much always good.
This is all my own working out, though. I'm sure others will not follow my odd train of thought. |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
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Lashan
Learned Scribe
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2004 : 11:39:06
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Prince Indirian, I think our game worlds are a bit different. Especially in the area where the number of good drow and the impact that they have in the world. I also don't believe that there are enough good drow in the "cannon" game world to make that much of a large difference to most people. Even if word got out that there were good drow, I still don't believe that it would be enough to change generations and generations of racial fear and hatred against the legendary drow. I could easily see a paladin smite first and ask questions later.
Of course, these are just differences of opinion.
As to a farmer not knowing what a drow is, I think they would. They might not have seen a dragon before, but if one flies over their crops and starts breathing fire, they sure know what it is. If a dark skinned elf shows up, legends and rumors will indicate a drow, which will incite fear. Legends even talk of good dragons, but if there is a farmer who sees a dragon, they aren't going to stop and ask it if it is good. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2004 : 15:16:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Lashan
As to a farmer not knowing what a drow is, I think they would. They might not have seen a dragon before, but if one flies over their crops and starts breathing fire, they sure know what it is. If a dark skinned elf shows up, legends and rumors will indicate a drow, which will incite fear. Legends even talk of good dragons, but if there is a farmer who sees a dragon, they aren't going to stop and ask it if it is good.
For those interested, the latest WOTSQ novel contains a scene between some lumbermen from Velarsburg and some Eilistraee drow. I thought it was very well written and showed how long held beliefs towards dark elves could begin to change. |
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Prince Indirian
Acolyte
Sweden
14 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2004 : 22:35:35
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To Lashan. It's good that you tell us how your gameworld since it gives alot insight how you see drow. But I am talking about the so called "canon world". But I do agree that there is alot of hatred concerning the drow, but the elistraen church has established itself and practically everybody in waterdeep and the silver marches know about them ( even though dwarves of the north dislike these too). There are sveral places in Faerun were they are accepted and welcomed, especially when fighting lloth followers and other evil drow. Since they have the most experience when it comes to fight them ( the evil drow). Take Deepingdale for an instance, they are now fighting against the immigration of Auzkovyn clan/ house and llothite raids. And they really seem to welcome Elistaens in this struggle. If you don't belivie me look it up in the FRCS, on deepingdale.
First of all there are very few commoners and farmers whom would even dare to attack a drow, and they probably only do it to save for their families to flee, and then probably only is they were ATTACKED. Oh and by the way most alot of people are not that educated and will simply belivie that som stories are in fact faerie tales.
Literacy in the realms aren't that widespread I belivie ( well som countries such as Turimish, Cormyr), so most people learn about drow, dragons and similiar from taverns and bards. As far as I know most bards are Harpers, and they (the Harpers) are allied with the Elistraen drow so why the hell would they spread rumors about how evil their allies are (disregarding the fact that they might do it too keep the vigilance against evil drow). They simple don't , or at least not that very often. And also attacking somebody just like that may be an evil act, especially if they aren't hostile (but one shouldn't take to many risks). By reading the book of exalted deeds know that using violence like that may be evil. And it's quite funny that you said that you could easily see a paladin SMITE a drow. What if it was a good one, then the smite wouldn't work would it (but I do get what you were meaning I just found it to funny). Thus proving that drow is at least not evil. And why should a paladin attack what seems to be a non-evil,non-hostile being... |
Edited by - Prince Indirian on 04 Jun 2004 13:56:33 |
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Lashan
Learned Scribe
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2004 : 11:29:21
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While it is true that I don't read the novels, I still find it hard to believe that everyone in The North has heard of good drow and that they are around in large numbers. I think this is going to come down to the basic "Well, it's cannon" vs. "I just don't like that plot thread" type discussion. I can't argue with examples from novels, since I haven't read them, but I also believe that most of them are about the movers and shakers in the game world. These people know all of what is going on all the time, including good drow. The average adventurer doesn't.
I also disagree that almost every bard is a harper. Anyways, I gave my opinion and feel I expressed it well. |
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Prince Indirian
Acolyte
Sweden
14 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2004 : 14:43:22
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Did I mention any novels in my last post?
What I meant was that nearly everybody in the North has probably heard about, BUT they don't always belivie in those stories. Yet Drizzt has really stirred things up there since he is the most reknown of them ( the good drow). But be aware that this does not mean that they are accepted, dwarves of the north treat good and evil drow alike. And I never said that they were there in "large numbers". A few are enough to create rumors and stories, don't you agree. If you meet a drow who doesn't attack you or treats you like a old friend or whom saved your life, wouldn't you start to question your prejudices slightly. This kind of occurence would spread until, the evil ones attack, which would effectively dispel it until it happened again.
And where do you belibie that the average adventurer gets his knwoledge and similiar facts that may be important, if not crucial to be a succesful adventurer. Also I never said that all bards or even almost all bards are harpers. I said most...that's quite a difference
I never aid that I didn't like your plot, yet I came with some cannon info, which you didn't like. |
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Yoshimo
Seeker
88 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2004 : 15:08:25
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| The race of Drow has always, and will always, be a race of cutthroat individuals with the singular motivation of serving the Spider Queen, Lolth, and waging war among themselves. There will always be a few exceptions, mind you, just as the famed Drizzt Dourdenthe and his trusty onyx panther figurine, Guenhwyvar. There will always be a light in dark times, no matter what the race. This is a simple fact of life, and those who accomplish standing before their race and living will be reknowned throughout the realms, just as Drizzt is. |
May the light of Selune light your path and Olidammara guide your footsteps ~Shadow Thief Motto |
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Fireheart
Learned Scribe
USA
109 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2004 : 15:15:50
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Not to interrupt the discussion  , but I have a question.
There is a weapon (artifact) - 1000 moonstones blade or something - legend has that if it is ever drawn by a good drow, the blade will shatter into 1000 moonstones. Each stone when give to a drow will redeem them.
What in your opinion/campaign would the word "redeem" mean?
~Fireheart |
I believe in what I see/I believe in what I hear/I believe that what I'm feeling/Changes how the world appears
-Rush "Totem" |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2004 : 15:46:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Prince Indirian
Did I mention any novels in my last post?
I think he was referring to my WOTSQ example mentioned previously. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2004 : 15:48:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Yoshimo
The race of Drow has always, and will always, be a race of cutthroat individuals with the singular motivation of serving the Spider Queen, Lolth,
And what happens if Lolth goes silent one day? |
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Tethtoril
Seeker
95 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2004 : 15:54:07
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::watches the old neverending argument go back and forth:: 
*cough* Ahem, please let us move past the stalemate and discuss Fireheart's newest question about redemption.
::walks away trailing a broom::
*mutters* Darn drow discussions, always boil down to the same thing over and over.
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Tethtoril
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood |
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Lashan
Learned Scribe
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2004 : 16:03:27
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| I agree. I believe we have made our points. I started my posting with not wanting to start anything. I agree to disagree. I've been around this debate before, but just wanted to toss in my 2 copper on the general discussion on good drow. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2004 : 16:37:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Fireheart
Not to interrupt the discussion , but I have a question.
There is a weapon (artifact) - 1000 moonstones blade or something - legend has that if it is ever drawn by a good drow, the blade will shatter into 1000 moonstones. Each stone when give to a drow will redeem them.
What in your opinion/campaign would the word "redeem" mean?
~Fireheart
Well, I'd take it to mean that the moonstones would somehow lead their drow recipients to turn away from evil...
But I am not familiar with this artifact. Is it a personal creation, or is this from some bit of lore that I'm simply not recalling? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2004 : 17:10:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But I am not familiar with this artifact. Is it a personal creation, or is this from some bit of lore that I'm simply not recalling?
I think it was mentioned in Magic of Faerun. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2004 : 18:16:17
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But I am not familiar with this artifact. Is it a personal creation, or is this from some bit of lore that I'm simply not recalling?
I think it was mentioned in Magic of Faerun.
Ah, there it is. Page 143 of Magic of Faerūn, One Thousand Broken Dreams. 'Tis a +3 holy drow bane longsword.
"It is rumored that if the sword is ever drawn by a good-aligned drow, it would shatter into a thousand small (50 gp) moonstones. If the rumor is true, each of these moonstones could be used once as an atonement spell to redeem a dark elf." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2004 : 18:20:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Ah, there it is. Page 143 of Magic of Faerūn, One Thousand Broken Dreams. 'Tis a +3 holy drow bane longsword.
"It is rumored that if the sword is ever drawn by a good-aligned drow, it would shatter into a thousand small (50 gp) moonstones. If the rumor is true, each of these moonstones could be used once as an atonement spell to redeem a dark elf."
Sounds like a good adventure seed for someone that wanted to feature a drow redemption style campaign. |
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Prince Indirian
Acolyte
Sweden
14 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2004 : 18:39:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Fireheart
Not to interrupt the discussion , but I have a question.
There is a weapon (artifact) - 1000 moonstones blade or something - legend has that if it is ever drawn by a good drow, the blade will shatter into 1000 moonstones. Each stone when give to a drow will redeem them.
What in your opinion/campaign would the word "redeem" mean?
~Fireheart
Well, Maybe it could change a drow to a true elf. He/she would become an Illithyr(sp)elf. I think that it would be quite hard to lose all your powers, but more importantly becoming an true elf would be at least emotionaly disruptive. I wouldn't be surpriesed if the charachter fell unconcius or even died of the trauma.
Yet it could lead to some memorable roleplaying...or not |
Edited by - Prince Indirian on 04 Jun 2004 18:50:15 |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2004 : 19:10:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Lashan
I agree. I believe we have made our points. I started my posting with not wanting to start anything. I agree to disagree. I've been around this debate before, but just wanted to toss in my 2 copper on the general discussion on good drow.
And to wrap up my end of the discussion (well done Tethtoril - it's always nice to have a discussion, but I think you recognised a good stopping point) - I stand by my opinions but as I've said, I respect and, even quite often agree with, your opinions Lashan. You have made me mull over a few points at any rate. And Prince Indirian, ditto.
That drow artifact seems quite an interesting plot hook. Did you say it is a weapon with the 'drow' special property? I thought that only came out in Underdark. I would look at my copy at MaoF... but I'm lazy!  |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
Edited by - Sarelle on 04 Jun 2004 19:10:45 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2004 : 19:51:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Prince Indirian
Well, Maybe it could change a drow to a true elf. He/she would become an Illithyr(sp)elf. I think that it would be quite hard to lose all your powers, but more importantly becoming an true elf would be at least emotionaly disruptive. I wouldn't be surpriesed if the charachter fell unconcius or even died of the trauma.
Yet it could lead to some memorable roleplaying...or not
In addition to the moonstone, I'd require some sort of special, really tough to do ritual to turn a drow back into an Illithyri (sp?).
Let's see... This ritual was first created soon after the Descent. It was crafted by some moon elf High Mages and some good-aligned drow that were left behind. These "returned Illithyri" later interbred with their moon elf associates, and now, millenia later, there is no apparent mark of their heritage.
The ritual itself was lost during the chaos of the Crown Wars. Yet records of it may still remain, either in Evermeet or in lost elven ruins...
Finding the ritual today would require a tremendous effort -- maybe even a campaign's worth of work.
To enact the ritual, you need the willing drow subject of the ritual, a High Mage who's of Illithyri descent, and a couple other spellcasters. Perhaps one of those others should be a cleric of Eilistraee....
quote:
Originally posted by Sarelle
Did you say it is a weapon with the 'drow' special property? I thought that only came out in Underdark. I would look at my copy at MaoF... but I'm lazy!
No, it's a bane against drow. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 05 Jun 2004 19:29:59 |
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hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2004 : 19:09:45
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quote:
There is a weapon (artifact) - 1000 moonstones blade or something - legend has that if it is ever drawn by a good drow, the blade will shatter into 1000 moonstones. Each stone when give to a drow will redeem them.
What in your opinion/campaign would the word "redeem" mean?
I think it would mean that those Drow who touched the stones would have to at least change alignment away from evil, but not necessarily to good. The redeeming part would be their acceptance by Corellon Larethian back into the Elven fold. |
"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true. |
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Yoshimo
Seeker
88 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2004 : 19:41:31
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I concur with hammer of Moradin. |
May the light of Selune light your path and Olidammara guide your footsteps ~Shadow Thief Motto |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2004 : 23:05:26
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quote:
Originally posted by hammer of Moradin
The redeeming part would be their acceptance by Corellon Larethian back into the Elven fold.
And given his clergy includes a handful of dark elves, I believe this acceptance is a possibility. |
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Yoshimo
Seeker
88 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2004 : 23:44:40
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Wait a minute. Does that mean that every elf hails to Corellon Larethian? I though that was only surface elves. Don't the Drow fall into Lolth's safekeeping? |
May the light of Selune light your path and Olidammara guide your footsteps ~Shadow Thief Motto |
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Drow Redemption
