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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3745 Posts |
 Posted - 22 May 2012 : 22:26:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
True, but it's possible that after a few centuries, a lich could for some reason decide it wants to return to life...
Maybe. But has there ever been any?
-Can't think of any examples, but if ever there were any, they'd likely be Archlich, Baelnorn, or anything in the non-Evil vein. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2012 : 23:21:32
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| Baelnorn seem like an ambivalent candidate. Elves utterly abhor undeath, baelnorns are both revered and reviled. But they also disfavour things like resurrection which defy the natural elven cycle of life, death, and afterlife. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 01:00:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
True, but it's possible that after a few centuries, a lich could for some reason decide it wants to return to life...
Maybe. But has there ever been any?
-Can't think of any examples, but if ever there were any, they'd likely be Archlich, Baelnorn, or anything in the non-Evil vein.
Well, there was Barrel Hellten a Wizard that became a lich to assist his wife, an elf, in her various quests for the court, and eventually became human and died, but that was several centuries after she died. I would consider him more interested in order, than goodness though, more lawful neutral than anything else.
That's the only relm's sorce I can give you. If you want known relms sorces, then I can think of several, both goood and evil. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3745 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 05:03:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Baelnorn seem like an ambivalent candidate. Elves utterly abhor undeath, baelnorns are both revered and reviled. But they also disfavour things like resurrection which defy the natural elven cycle of life, death, and afterlife.
-Baelnorn aren't truly Undead. I mean, yes, they are Undead in the sense that they retain their sentience and bodily functions long after the body physically stops, but they aren't Undead in the sense that they are vile, abhorrent creatures fueled by evil (Negative Energy) cheating death and nature itself.
-That said, Baelnorn- Watchnorn especially- are generally tasked with specific goals, with those goals being so important that the candidate becomes a Baelnorn in the first place to guarantee their ability to carry out these goals long into the future. When/if their presence is no longer needed, there isn't necessarily a reason to be a Baelnorn any longer. While an individual may simply wish to pass on into death to rejoin with lost friends and relatives, others may seek to return into the world of the living, to "make up" for time among the living that they may have lost when they chose to undergo the ceremony to turn them into Baelnorn in the first place- likely Moon Elves especially. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31798 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 06:07:50
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As noted in Cormanthyr -- "Baelnorn, the willing undead elves, are the elven equivalent of liches, though they are hardly as disturbingly wrong as the corrupt undead and they do not project the fearsome aura of those wicked creatures."
So they are the elven equivalent of a lich... but, at the same time, are also something more that is entirely, and specifically... elven. |
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 13:13:39
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| Yeah, I would take anything the Elves say about how the Baelnorn are not liches as more Elven propoganda. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 13:46:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Rhewtani
Yeah, I would take anything the Elves say about how the Baelnorn are not liches as more Elven propoganda.
Could they have been a previous version of the undead made from positive energy? And if so, would they be considered as equivelent? I'd say yes, because the principle is the same, the medium differs that is all. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 14:29:45
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| I suggested a similar idea in another scroll, although to me it seems elves would somehow connect to immortality through the Feywild instead of the Negative Energy Plane (or Shadowfell, or whatever). |
[/Ayrik] |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 17:16:51
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| Well, there are some evil undead powered by positive energy, IIRC. Mummies, maybe? |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 18:15:44
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The question is, does it really matter which energy powers them? Not a few liches who are powered by negative energy turn out be more neutral than evil. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 23 May 2012 18:30:26 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 18:26:17
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By the same token, pre-3e mummies (Ancient dead) were powered by positive energy, and the closest thing we have to that now is radiant energy.
The lesser types are more like greater zombies, so that could go either way, but the greater versions are definitely sentient, so I would say they are much more like Baelnorn (and should also be considered a sub-category of lich).
And since most of them are evil, then the energy involved actually has very little to do with their temperament.
IMHO, I think calling an energy source 'good' or 'evil' would be like calling a gun evil - its really all about intent (just like 'black magic' and 'white magic' - you can do good or evil with both).
Two major sources of power - one connected to creation, the other entropy. Its more like the magic in WoT, or even SoT (additive and subtractive magics). All other 'magics' are just different ways to utilize the two. Athas (Darksun) used the same paradigm as well. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 May 2012 18:46:25 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 18:38:02
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Similarly, in Trudi Canavan's The Black Magician world (she never named that world, so we're left to calling it that, as that's the first trilogy in the series), black (or evil) magic is the new term for drawing energy from a living person. It was called 'higher magic' a long time ago, and practiced by masters with their apprentices, or in the Sachakans' case, with their slaves. But the Kyralian magicians who overused it prompted the then newly created Magician's Guild to ban it and call it black/evil. Same practice, same magic, but named differently---all because of how it's used. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 23 May 2012 21:27:19 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3745 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 20:48:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
quote:
Originally posted by Rhewtani
Yeah, I would take anything the Elves say about how the Baelnorn are not liches as more Elven propoganda.
Could they have been a previous version of the undead made from positive energy? And if so, would they be considered as equivelent? I'd say yes, because the principle is the same, the medium differs that is all.
-Baelnorn are "powered" by the Elven High Magic that created them. It isn't Positive Energy, or Negative Energy (as most Undead are)- it's simply magic. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 21:22:41
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| It's just magic... Yeah, I'm afraid I can't accept that. even if that is the canin answer. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3745 Posts |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 23:29:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Well, sorry then. Does "it's Elven High Magic" make it any better?
No. so far, all forms of undead are powered with either positive, or negative energy. Constructs are powered by elemental spirits. this is a viable explanation, just saying it's magic, or high magic is not an explanation. I'm undead, because I'm undead, but I'm not like any other undead thus far.
well how are you undead?
it's magic.
Sorry, this just doesn't fly for me. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 17:06:32
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| Yes, but it's the same BS lines they used to feed humans before the Netherese stole their scrolls. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 19:44:13
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Deception for in game based elements may work just fine, but for mechanics issues it does not.
If you said they were powered by soul magic, then I could work with that.
Positive/ negative energy.
entrapping their souls in specially created magical crystals that meant that they could only be killed if the crystals were destroyed.
And/or by several other mechanical means, just don't say, "It's by magic" and expect me to say that works. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 11:43:08
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| Perhaps its a specialized branch of magic that was a gift from the elven gods. The ability to make 'good' undead would be quite a boon to any good aligned race after all. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 18:00:06
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Sigh... I remember when undead and dragon meant "evil", and knight meant "good".  Even if there is a good intention, becoming an undead sounds unnatural to me. And working magic against natural forces of life and death used to have consequences. Old good times, before everything was relative and we needed so many monster manuals.  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 18:40:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Well, sorry then. Does "it's Elven High Magic" make it any better?
Isn't that the stuff they make Keebler cookies with?
Maybe a Baelnorn is just a life-sized gingerbread man. 
What if a Baelnorn is not a lich, but something lich-like? I have been using a certain logic to figure-out that most zombies aren't really undead at all - they are just animated corpses (same with skeletons). True undead are self-aware. Anyhow, continuing with this "its NOT Necromancy" train of thought...
We are aware of several types of 'spirit-binding' magics, used in everything from golems to certain magical devices and artifacts, and even locales. The lich is actually an example of this - its soul is bound to a phylactory. This separation of the soul from the body is what makes liches evil (I touched upon the proximity thing earlier). Without a soul, a creature becomes a sociopath (completely self-serving).
Anyhow, a Baelnorn doesn't undergo a lich ritual - in fact, all signs point to a normal death. What if elves who agree to this - either with Elven High Mages* or upon death when confronting their gods - die, and then their soul/spirit is sent back to their dead body? The body itself becomes their phylactory (ergo, no separation means no "automatic evil"). However, the body has lost its animus (life force), and THAT is what Elven Magic is 'propping up'.
So the soul (conscience) is there, as is the mind/spirit (consciousness), but the animus is missing, so it is a type of undead (at least one of the three must not be present to qualify). This would make it a very rare type of undead - a physical ghost, as it were. The difference between it an incorporeal undead is only that it permanently 'possesses' its own corpse, which is animated like a zombie - mere animation, not true undeath.
So more like a ghost possessing a body - in this case it's own dead body - then a lich.
*I think Elven High Magic is very similar to the old concept of Southern Magic, in that it is arcane magic combined with divine magic. This means that Elven High Mages are very much like Magi - priest-mages - and do arcane magic that is boosted/gifted by their gods. Its like Arcane magic requiring Faith as well as talent. I bring this up only because that would mean there is no real difference between high-Mages doing the Baelnorn-thing, and the departed asking this of their gods. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 May 2012 19:15:18 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3745 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 21:32:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Well, sorry then. Does "it's Elven High Magic" make it any better?
No. so far, all forms of undead are powered with either positive, or negative energy. Constructs are powered by elemental spirits. this is a viable explanation, just saying it's magic, or high magic is not an explanation. I'm undead, because I'm undead, but I'm not like any other undead thus far.
well how are you undead?
it's magic.
Sorry, this just doesn't fly for me.
-You accept Positive Energy, Negative Energy, Elemental spirits bound into a physical body, Incarnum, or other things, but not Elven High Magic? |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 25 May 2012 21:33:47 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3745 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 21:37:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What if a Baelnorn is not a lich, but something lich-like?
-They really aren't Liches. I mean, they are, as that what the books say, but they like you point out, they don't match what the classic definition of Lich. Lich is the closest established monster that exists/existed that most closely mirrored what a Baelnorn is when they were inserted into D&D. Optimally, they'd have their own distinct stat block, that doesn't simplistically say they're Elven Liches. Elven Undead, yes. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 25 May 2012 21:39:49 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2012 : 19:24:04
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Right, but here's my thinking (I realize the above explanation is very convoluted):
1) An Elf agrees to being a Baelnorn when it dies, and then it dies a natural death (and I suppose the choice is still open, if they 'ask the gods' after they die).
2) A vessel is prepared: The dead elf's body is reanimated (which doesn't have to be necromancy - a very simple animate object spell with permanency works here). This also means that it is possible for another body to be prepared, if the elf's body is not intact or recoverable.
3) The spirit is 'summoned' and bound to an object - the object being the animated corpse. As a a spirit, it possesses the animated body and uses it.
Kinda simple and elegant, no? You completely bypass the positive energy/negative energy question - it becomes purely mechanical (and since the spirit - and 'the gods', presumably) are in agreement with this ritual, there is no evil intent. Magic is only used to animate the lifeless body of the dead elf, to replace the missing animus.
A resurrection spell would be able to restore the lifeforce itself, but I think that would be very painful, and possibly be thwarted by the 'spritual' nature of the elf's return. I think ressurection should be anethema to elves (who believe in the great balance, which includes the cycle of life and death). Its basically their work-around for their own religous beliefs.
I suppose Eberron's deathless elves would be made much the same way, but I don't know enough about them to make that call. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 May 2012 19:41:34 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 03:20:44
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Since the elves are averse to undeath, why then resort to a lichdom-like process to create baelnorns? Isn't it more practical to create some sort of an elixir of life to prolong their already long existence to do whatever duty they have to finish before their final rest? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 15:12:10
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I would've thought the same, although the elven way (as I see it) doesn't involve "human" notions like magical elixirs and books, elves would somehow commune with and transfer their aging to an immortal tree/garden, or live within the "ageless zone" created by a mythal (incidentally, Myth Drannor had this effect).
An undead guardian does allow the installation of nasty life-detection or life-triggered wards, anti-life fields, etc etc. The sorts of dark necromantic stuff I wouldn't normally associate with elves. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 21:05:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Well, sorry then. Does "it's Elven High Magic" make it any better?
No. so far, all forms of undead are powered with either positive, or negative energy. Constructs are powered by elemental spirits. this is a viable explanation, just saying it's magic, or high magic is not an explanation. I'm undead, because I'm undead, but I'm not like any other undead thus far.
well how are you undead?
it's magic.
Sorry, this just doesn't fly for me.
-You accept Positive Energy, Negative Energy, Elemental spirits bound into a physical body, Incarnum, or other things, but not Elven High Magic?
It's a prosses of logical argumentation, by which the prosses of conclusion follos from primace. Saying high elven magic is the way of an event in of itself, is not an argumentation in any form. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 21:11:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Right, but here's my thinking (I realize the above explanation is very convoluted):
1) An Elf agrees to being a Baelnorn when it dies, and then it dies a natural death (and I suppose the choice is still open, if they 'ask the gods' after they die).
2) A vessel is prepared: The dead elf's body is reanimated (which doesn't have to be necromancy - a very simple animate object spell with permanency works here). This also means that it is possible for another body to be prepared, if the elf's body is not intact or recoverable.
3) The spirit is 'summoned' and bound to an object - the object being the animated corpse. As a a spirit, it possesses the animated body and uses it.
Kinda simple and elegant, no? You completely bypass the positive energy/negative energy question - it becomes purely mechanical (and since the spirit - and 'the gods', presumably) are in agreement with this ritual, there is no evil intent. Magic is only used to animate the lifeless body of the dead elf, to replace the missing animus.
A resurrection spell would be able to restore the lifeforce itself, but I think that would be very painful, and possibly be thwarted by the 'spritual' nature of the elf's return. I think ressurection should be anethema to elves (who believe in the great balance, which includes the cycle of life and death). Its basically their work-around for their own religous beliefs.
I suppose Eberron's deathless elves would be made much the same way, but I don't know enough about them to make that call.
Argumentation provided, problem solved. And to answer your question, the process is the same except positive energy is used instead of negative energy. the process is relatively identical.
Let me be doubly clear. My problem isn't with an elven high magical ritual process for creating "undead", it is using "high magic" as the sole explanation. The same would hold if someone just said it was "negative energy", with any argument for the process in which said "negative energy" was said to keep the undead functioning. Clear? |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3745 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2012 : 21:05:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
It's a prosses of logical argumentation, by which the prosses of conclusion follos from primace. Saying high elven magic is the way of an event in of itself, is not an argumentation in any form.
-That's limiting the High Magic artificially. It need not be only an singular event, as we see in the case of Baelnorn, mythals and other effects. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2455 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2012 : 14:32:39
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And, far more amusingly, most sentient undead (I doubt it's appliable to liches, for example) have a chance to become Darklights by freak accident.
Speaking of which, "Undead" as a classification is kind of weak. "Undead [Ethereal]" / "Undead [Negative]" / "Undead [Positive]" would be more meaningful. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Can the unholy dead be saved?
