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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3745 Posts |
 Posted - 19 May 2012 : 03:42:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
A lich is, in D&D terms, an undead creature who has taken the time to prepare a receptacle for his soul -- this is part of the process of becoming a lich.
But returning a lich to life reverses everything that was done to make the person undead. All the magic that was worked becomes negated. Since living people don't have a need for a phylactery, and since the bond to the phylactery was part of the process of becoming a lich, I maintain that magically restoring life to the lich breaks the bond to the phylactery.
-Magicians who become Liches are still among the living when they create and "bond" with their respective phylacteries. Because of this, I see no reason to believe that if they somehow were able to re-inhabit a living body, that the bonding process would be negated. Their souls were bonded to it when they were living, to begin with. Why would living "again" change anything? |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 04:08:21
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I you change the alignment of an undead, in this case, a lich, when you transform him to a living person, you also change the way he sees things. Life, in general. So if before he found freedom and power in undeath, now that he's 'alive,' he may deem it abominable. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36858 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 05:25:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
A lich is, in D&D terms, an undead creature who has taken the time to prepare a receptacle for his soul -- this is part of the process of becoming a lich.
But returning a lich to life reverses everything that was done to make the person undead. All the magic that was worked becomes negated. Since living people don't have a need for a phylactery, and since the bond to the phylactery was part of the process of becoming a lich, I maintain that magically restoring life to the lich breaks the bond to the phylactery.
-Magicians who become Liches are still among the living when they create and "bond" with their respective phylacteries. Because of this, I see no reason to believe that if they somehow were able to re-inhabit a living body, that the bonding process would be negated. Their souls were bonded to it when they were living, to begin with. Why would living "again" change anything?
Because that bond was part of the overall process of turning undead, and if the overall process is undone, then all aspects of it should also be undone. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 12:55:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I you change the alignment of an undead, in this case, a lich, when you transform him to a living person, you also change the way he sees things. Life, in general. So if before he found freedom and power in undeath, now that he's 'alive,' he may deem it abominable.
I find that very likely. After all even ol Szass Tam now despises his rotting undead form. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 13:11:01
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I don't see any special requirement for life, unlife, death, undeath to be fixed onto alignments. It's true that many undead things are created directly or indirectly through evil - dark necromancers, fell pacts, power from the shadows and lower planes and negative energy, and all that. It's also true that some vampires, liches, ghosts, and other undead beings are good-aligned, a few are even champions like paladins.
Mainstream trends are only patterns and generalizations, not rules and definitions. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 13:37:06
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| True in fact there are goodly undead in the form of watch ghosts and baelnorn etc. Its just that the likes of Szass Tam , the Eminence etc have given them a bad name. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 14:49:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
[quote]Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
A lich is, in D&D terms, an undead creature who has taken the time to prepare a receptacle for his soul -- this is part of the process of becoming a lich.
But returning a lich to life reverses everything that was done to make the person undead. All the magic that was worked becomes negated. Since living people don't have a need for a phylactery, and since the bond to the phylactery was part of the process of becoming a lich, I maintain that magically restoring life to the lich breaks the bond to the phylactery.
-Magicians who become Liches are still among the living when they create and "bond" with their respective phylacteries. Because of this, I see no reason to believe that if they somehow were able to re-inhabit a living body, that the bonding process would be negated. Their souls were bonded to it when they were living, to begin with. Why would living "again" change anything?
Because that bond was part of the overall process of turning undead, and if the overall process is undone, then all aspects of it should also be undone.
A part of a process once removed, does not necesitate the undoing of the entire process. It would only be so, if, and only if, all other processes were based upon, or followed from that event. This seems highly unlikely, but is possible given what evidence is presented, especially with those litches that have multiple vessels for storing their souls. the mere presence of which indicates that this element is not the single linch pin of the process. for if it was, then creating multiple ones would not be possible. a soul could only go to one, and be transfered and stored to one. the fact that this not always the case, indicates that while an importent part of the process, it is not a chain based sequence of events. This makes the whole destruction upon bringing back to life less probable. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36858 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 15:35:51
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| Okay, last comment on this before I bow out: to me, being a lich and having a phylactery are two connected things. The phylactery is part of lichdom. That's why I think that returning to life breaks the connection. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 17:55:30
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Personally, I can see it going either way (good arguments on both sides). Its one of those "up to the author/DM" situational things. And we fall back on "every lich is unique, and uses a unique ritual", which means there is no rule that is correct 100% of the time (as it should be - liches are mysterious creatures).
As for alignment and redemption - I think becoming undead is a massive system-shock, which leaves one a bit (mentally) unstable, which is where all the evil stems from (its more of an extreme selfishness/survival mode thing). I do believe good emotions (mostly) lie within the soul, which is separated from the lich, and I think proximity to it is what keeps it from becoming completely feral (like an Alhoon). This is probably one of the major reasons most liches keep it very close - they still need to behave in a fairly civilized fashion.
Having your soul 'shattered' - either through multiple phylactories (Horcruxes) or through accidentally awakened clones (Manshoon) will also do the same - the lack of proximity increases the evil, because you have lost much of your emotional ('human') experiences - you become more the sociopath. You are basically left with your reasoning and your reptilian brain - not a very good combination.
That last sentence made me think of something - do scaley folk have souls? Are they completely governed by their reptilian brain? (psychologically speaking)
Sarrukh liches... I have a feeling they aren't much different (personality-wise) then living Sarrukh.
EDIT: As usual, I forgot to make my point - I think liches/undead an be redeemed (we have examples of many types). If fiends can be, why not something that was once mortal? This may be considered a weakenss, however - if a lich is "reconnecting with his soul", he may be drawing some of it back into himself. If he becomes 100% 'whole' (havinmg empathy for others), then his phylactory may become useless (or one could simply rule the liches phylactory now resides within his atrophied heart).
This should only apply to corporeal undead - I do not think incorporeal dead are detached from their souls (they ARE their souls!), so good & evil should remain consistent with their life (for the most part - depends on the trauma related to their death).
As for vampires and others - I think it may be possible for them to 'grow a soul'. Perhaps something like a Helm of Alignment Change creates a 'soul-seed' - almost like a newborn - and from there it is possible for a new soul to grow (and empathy with others begins). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 May 2012 18:02:07 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 18:28:21
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Dragonbait's soul was divided (by magic) and one piece became the soul of Alias. It's even possible that Dragonbait's soul was further divided, the other splinters being given to Alias's "sisters", Cassana's other constructs. Oddly enough, it is the stupid halfling of the party who profoundly observed that souls are infinite things, and that if broken apart then each piece will still be an infinite thing. This doesn't necessarily apply to a lich's phylactery, nor to Manshoon, but it does set an uncertain precedent for the possibility of infinitely-divided yet stable "individual" souls in the Realms.
Also note that some early (1E) Realms descriptions of a homonculus creation ritual specified that the magic-user needed to sacrifice a part of his soul to give "life" and individuality to his construct. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36858 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 21:20:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Dragonbait's soul was divided (by magic) and one piece became the soul of Alias. It's even possible that Dragonbait's soul was further divided, the other splinters being given to Alias's "sisters", Cassana's other constructs. Oddly enough, it is the stupid halfling of the party who profoundly observed that souls are infinite things, and that if broken apart then each piece will still be an infinite thing.
That means that Dragonbait has a lot more Horcruxes than Lord Voldemort! |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3745 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 21:46:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Because that bond was part of the overall process of turning undead, and if the overall process is undone, then all aspects of it should also be undone.
-They're still Liches; they're just temporarily inhabiting bodies that are living.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
That last sentence made me think of something - do scaley folk have souls? Are they completely governed by their reptilian brain? (psychologically speaking)
-The conventional wisdom in D&D is that all sentient races have souls, spirits, or some other term to describe retaining some kind of vestige of personality and uniqueness after death. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 19 May 2012 21:49:02 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 21:53:08
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| I admit, I have not read this entire scroll, but I would respectfully submit (again) that any interested read the final book in the Coldfire trilogy by Cynthia S. Freedman. Without giving away spoilers, there is a lot in the third book of that series that should be considered with regards to his topic. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 01:53:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I you change the alignment of an undead, in this case, a lich, when you transform him to a living person, you also change the way he sees things. Life, in general. So if before he found freedom and power in undeath, now that he's 'alive,' he may deem it abominable.
I find that very likely. After all even ol Szass Tam now despises his rotting undead form.
His despise for his current state is rooted from his ambition to "renew" the universe. In his ideal world, undeath has no place.
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
I admit, I have not read this entire scroll, but I would respectfully submit (again) that any interested read the final book in the Coldfire trilogy by Cynthia S. Freedman. Without giving away spoilers, there is a lot in the third book of that series that should be considered with regards to his topic.
Agreed, Fellfire.
A highly recommended novel (and series, for that matter). To me, it's a bit FR-ish, in a very good way (except in tone, I guess).
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Does a lich ever bother with the concept of evil or good, or alignment? I don't think so. Their selfishness might be deemed evil by many, but if by stroke of chance, said selfishness saves (whether intentionally or as a later, unforeseen result) innocent lives and eliminates the wrongdoers, could the same be deemed still? |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 20 May 2012 02:04:13 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31798 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 04:03:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Does a lich ever bother with the concept of evil or good, or alignment? I don't think so. Their selfishness might be deemed evil by many, but if by stroke of chance, said selfishness saves (whether intentionally or as a later, unforeseen result) innocent lives and eliminates the wrongdoers, could the same be deemed still?
I don't think it's as simple as all that.
Liches still tend to have some conception of good and evil. And while generally, liches tend toward evil, we do have "good" liches, who retain much of their goodly moral compass, in the form of either archliches and baelnorns. They aren't necessarily 'good liches,' though. They're something magically similar but different.
And we know, from Ed, that "archliches are regarded as undead to be aided in achieving their task/mission and then cajoled to "pass on" into true death rather than hanging around; archliches who disagree, or who have established "unfulfillable" or really long-term tasks or missions for themselves, are to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis (i.e. Kelemvor, working through his servants as proxies, wants to truly understand the motivation and natures of each individual archlich before deciding on a policy towards each particular archlich)."
...
So I'd imagine that with those archliches who work toward positive aims, can still conceive of the need to maintain a strict line of division between good and evil.
Moral concerns would only cease to be a factor for the individual lich, I think, when the rare instance of demi-lichdom is achieved. As Ed again describes in the original Lords of Darkness tome, it is not an easy state for a lich to reach, nor is it something that can be easily described. We know, simply, that it is greatly beyond the "confines" of the standard existence of lichdom -- which, I would assume, includes concepts of morality.
When you've "lived" for that long... good, evil, and, neutrality, probably all look so "limited" and "static" from the point of view of those demiliches who have transcended the bounds of what the gods and priests say can lead one to a good and/or evil life. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 04:46:47
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| And once again motivation, an emotional state, determines morality and rationality. Only know we've an imortle being, versus a non such. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3745 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 05:45:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Does a lich ever bother with the concept of evil or good, or alignment? I don't think so. Their selfishness might be deemed evil by many, but if by stroke of chance, said selfishness saves (whether intentionally or as a later, unforeseen result) innocent lives and eliminates the wrongdoers, could the same be deemed still?
-Outside of the insanity that seems to come with extreme age, or perhaps some mood swings caused by the Negative Energy that powers most Liches, I see no reason why they'd change very much from their living personalities. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2012 : 12:31:51
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| You know it seems to me that the shock of being brought forcibly back to life by a spell after who knows how many centuries of undeath might be enough to unhinge even the strongest mind and thus the purpose of these spells to redeem an undead would be thwarted. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2012 : 16:11:01
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"Can the unholy dead be saved?"
Why would a lich want to be "saved"? It would view itself as superior to the living, immune to death, an evolution beyond mortality. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36858 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2012 : 17:11:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
"Can the unholy dead be saved?"
Why would a lich want to be "saved"? It would view itself as superior to the living, immune to death, an evolution beyond mortality.
True, but it's possible that after a few centuries, a lich could for some reason decide it wants to return to life...
Also, the original question also referred to vampires. And not all vampires are turned willingly.
And there are other intelligent undead that may have reasons for wanting to return to life -- especially those that, like most vampires, did not choose undeath. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2012 : 18:14:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
True, but it's possible that after a few centuries, a lich could for some reason decide it wants to return to life...
I think that for liches, who become undead willingly, it can happen, but it would be very rare indeed. Unless, of course, the lich had discovered a way of becoming mortal without aging, or without the reverses of having to breath, eat, and so on.  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31798 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2012 : 03:12:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
"Can the unholy dead be saved?"
Why would a lich want to be "saved"? It would view itself as superior to the living, immune to death, an evolution beyond mortality.
Recall what both Ed and I said earlier about archliches, re: them having "long-term tasks or missions" that still might need to be completed.
Consider that the completion of those tasks or missions might only be properly accomplished by living beings. Whether interacting with a realm's leader in order to prevent some divined great disaster, or harnessing great magicks that still require a living spellcaster component... the desire to see these special events to their fruition may encourage these duty-bound archliches to seek out Gift of Life. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2012 : 04:48:48
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Does a lich ever bother with the concept of evil or good, or alignment? I don't think so. Their selfishness might be deemed evil by many, but if by stroke of chance, said selfishness saves (whether intentionally or as a later, unforeseen result) innocent lives and eliminates the wrongdoers, could the same be deemed still?
I don't think it's as simple as all that.
When you live for far too long and seen far too many things no ordinary mortal ever could, concepts such as good or evil would eventually appear "simple" to you, till one day they cease to matter at all. Even if from the start you have a goodly purpose for achieving lichdom, in one way or another, given the time and power that are in your very hands, such purpose may fade away...replaced by others you would inevitably consider far more important. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2012 : 04:50:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
True, but it's possible that after a few centuries, a lich could for some reason decide it wants to return to life...
Maybe. But has there ever been any? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36858 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2012 : 05:10:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
True, but it's possible that after a few centuries, a lich could for some reason decide it wants to return to life...
Maybe. But has there ever been any?
Not that I recall, in lore... Of course, we've not really seen too much on lichs beyond them being there to be opposed to.
We may not have any specific canon examples, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31798 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2012 : 05:42:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Does a lich ever bother with the concept of evil or good, or alignment? I don't think so. Their selfishness might be deemed evil by many, but if by stroke of chance, said selfishness saves (whether intentionally or as a later, unforeseen result) innocent lives and eliminates the wrongdoers, could the same be deemed still?
I don't think it's as simple as all that.
When you live for far too long and seen far too many things no ordinary mortal ever could, concepts such as good or evil would eventually appear "simple" to you, till one day they cease to matter at all. Even if from the start you have a goodly purpose for achieving lichdom, in one way or another, given the time and power that are in your very hands, such purpose may fade away...replaced by others you would inevitably consider far more important.
The fact that most archliches need to be encouraged by Kelemvor to "Move On!" -- as my tidbits from Ed indicated above -- isn't simply indicative of the influential aspect of a lich's longevity infecting such long-term tasks. I suspect that whatever moral mindset the lich possessed when initiating those tasks, still helps to perpetuate, in the lich's mind, a need for moral clarity. Otherwise the work to maintain these collective tasks, becomes corrupted by moral ambiguity. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2012 : 07:11:48
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The lich can interpret "moving on" as two things here: either the lich relinquishes undeath and moves on to the afterlife, or the lich gradually puts little consideration on his initial purpose for achieving lichdom (whether good or evil), continues to live as an undead, and moves on to other matters beyond the narrow confines of morality. While they know which of the two Kelemvor means, it doesn't mean they would always follow it; and those who do, well, perhaps haven't lived long enough or seen enough. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2012 : 18:15:55
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There are living humans who consider themselves above and beyond "simple" morals and ethics. And not all of these are necessarily evil. To be honest, every human who dares to impose his alignment views on another is already passing judgement, considering himself and his views better than some other, regardless which alignments are involved.
Liches (while alive) already considered themselves above the laws of the universe, they're archmages, with sufficient skill and knowledge they can achieve immortality, they can even defy the natural order of the gods, death and other such rules are meant to apply only to lesser men, yes? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2012 : 19:23:27
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| There's Miltiades in Phlan? He's more a death knight than Lich, but isn't he gifted with a new life at the end of the Pools trilogy? |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2012 : 20:09:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Does a lich ever bother with the concept of evil or good, or alignment? I don't think so. Their selfishness might be deemed evil by many, but if by stroke of chance, said selfishness saves (whether intentionally or as a later, unforeseen result) innocent lives and eliminates the wrongdoers, could the same be deemed still?
I don't think it's as simple as all that.
When you live for far too long and seen far too many things no ordinary mortal ever could, concepts such as good or evil would eventually appear "simple" to you, till one day they cease to matter at all. Even if from the start you have a goodly purpose for achieving lichdom, in one way or another, given the time and power that are in your very hands, such purpose may fade away...replaced by others you would inevitably consider far more important.
Actually, no, experience of itself wouldn't do that. this is equivelent to saying that if I simply place all the ingredents on a tray and place them on my counter, given enough time, they'll turn into cookies. Simply leaving for hundreds, even thousands of years will not in of itself foster any alteration in morality. It could in fact reinforce those views of morality that the lich held in life before becoming undead in the first place. Simply becoming undead shouldn't of itself alter views of morality, nor should simply perlonged existence have any impact on notions of morality in of itself.
Out living all your loved ones might, but int the same time might not, depending on views of the after life, one could view it that those that have died are actualy better off as they are able to go on to the paradise that the lich is unable to go to, because of the task that has required him/her to remain. So far our discussion has involved liches made from negative energy, but liches made from positive energy do exist. while one might assume that the one has a prepensity to lead one towards evil and the other good, logically, such an assumption doesn't hold (it doesn't with stand a full totology check). |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Can the unholy dead be saved?
