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AryalůmŽ
Senior Scribe

USA
666 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2011 :  00:02:10  Show Profile Send AryalůmŽ a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Poor Kiaransalee. She is probaly one of the most interesting deities in FR yet she has been nearly ignored. When the 4e world came out, the Queen of the Undead ot the axe. So, fellow scribes, I am asking you for as much nformation about Kiaransale as possible prior to her death. Please put any information about her here. Even though I may have read most of the little tidbits about her, there are more than likely many few small things in obscure places. In novels, please put down anything yu can glean frm them, be it a whole few pages about her and her cult or just te briefes kention of her name or even something or someone alludng to her or implying her. Please help fill my need of information!

Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
565 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2011 :  00:13:32  Show Profile  Visit Cleric Generic's Homepage Send Cleric Generic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
the 3e adventure, City of the Spider Queen is pretty good for some fluff on the Banshee and her followers, but appart from that I can only think of the obvious sources like Faiths and Pantheons, etc. And agreed, she is quite an interesting one, definitely my favourite member of the Dark Seldarine.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36736 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2011 :  00:51:12  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the most info about her is in the 2E book Demihuman Deities.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2011 :  01:01:22  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Other sources include DRAGON #298 - "The Vault of the Drow," On Hallowed Ground, and Monster Mythology.

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AryalůmŽ
Senior Scribe

USA
666 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2011 :  01:29:10  Show Profile Send AryalůmŽ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is it just me, or does anyone think that she should have been a more Chaotic Neutral deity? I feel that since all the rest of the Dark Seldarine (save Eilistraee) are evil there should at least be a neutral one. Undeath and revenge aren't really evil (unless you're close minded), so she could have easil fit the bill. Also, the all female clergy is rediculous as well. There are already enough of those gender only clergies (Lolth, Eilistraee, and Vhaeraun), so why does she need to? So, does anyone have any novel information, besides Storm of the Dead?
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3750 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2011 :  01:30:24  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And the novels of Lady Penitant trilogy, Faiths and Pantheons(3.5) and Underdark.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3734 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2011 :  17:51:30  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Elves of FaerŻn has the most information on Kiaransalee, being a compilation of all of the information contained in all of the different sourcebooks and novels listed above. Her entry can be found in Volume I, in the 'Deities' section. Note that, it was written in 1374 DR, so Kiaransalee is still quite alive, and the events of The Lady Penitent trilogy are not included, though new information about her revealed in that book was utilized.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of FaerŻn
Vol I- The Elves of FaerŻn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 21 Jun 2011 17:52:50
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Kno
Senior Scribe

452 Posts

Posted - 22 Jun 2011 :  15:22:31  Show Profile Send Kno a Private Message  Reply with Quote
She would be interesting if she weren't just a drow goddess

z455t
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Banter Darkdirk
Acolyte

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 22 Jun 2011 :  16:32:33  Show Profile Send Banter Darkdirk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree, an interesting deity that kind of fell through the cracks.
City of the Spider Queen - has some information regarding her, but it is more focused on the story of the priestess (NPC villian).
Faiths and Pantheons - again very brief, basic information.
If you are still playing 3.0/3.5 it might be the perfect opportunity to develop more about the deity yourself. And if you think she should be closer to CN, then maybe create a splinter sect of worshippers with similar thinking.
Sorry, just a suggestion.

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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3734 Posts

Posted - 23 Jun 2011 :  17:58:41  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kno

She would be interesting if she weren't just a drow goddess


-I would imagine she could have had a wider following in the Underdark, kind of like Ghaunadaur, if she was more...'accepting'.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of FaerŻn
Vol I- The Elves of FaerŻn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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AryalůmŽ
Senior Scribe

USA
666 Posts

Posted - 23 Jun 2011 :  22:12:31  Show Profile Send AryalůmŽ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Does anyone else think that her clergy being made up of only females was ridiculous and un needed as well?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36736 Posts

Posted - 23 Jun 2011 :  23:04:53  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil

Does anyone else think that her clergy being made up of only females was ridiculous and un needed as well?



There's plenty of individuals who are more than happy to limit their interactions with others to people who fulfill certain criteria. I don't see why deities being the same is an issue.

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 24 Jun 2011 :  00:39:10  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Lloth has been doing it for centuries. Why can't another goddess do the same? Though of course, if I were the deity, I wouldn't resort to such "limited" pool of servants.

Every beginning has an end.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36736 Posts

Posted - 24 Jun 2011 :  04:32:37  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Lloth has been doing it for centuries. Why can't another goddess do the same? Though of course, if I were the deity, I wouldn't resort to such "limited" pool of servants.



It actually makes a degree of sense to me...

Lolth, with her female-centric preferences, has been the main drow deity for millenia -- long enough for most drow to accept matriarchal society as the norm. Kiaransalee is an interloper compared to Lolth... Which is going to appeal more to her, the "weaker" sex, or the one that is dominant in all ways in drow society?

Yeah, as Vhaeraun proves, there is potential strength in going for drow males, but going for the females will get more power quicker. And most female drow, looking for an alternative to Lolth, will side with a goddess that sticks to the "Girls rule!" mindset, as opposed to the "hey, guys are okay, too!" stance of Vhaeraun.

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Kno
Senior Scribe

452 Posts

Posted - 24 Jun 2011 :  09:40:11  Show Profile Send Kno a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Kno

She would be interesting if she weren't just a drow goddess


-I would imagine she could have had a wider following in the Underdark, kind of like Ghaunadaur, if she was more...'accepting'.



I would be cooler if her faith spread in the Bloodstone Lands during the Orcus silence. So today we wouldn't have to hear about the raven bitch.

z455t
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3734 Posts

Posted - 24 Jun 2011 :  18:18:32  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil

Does anyone else think that her clergy being made up of only females was ridiculous and un needed as well?


-Eh. She's portrayed as a banshee often enough, and banshees can only be women, so there's the whole women theme, so...Eh. I can't say it necessarily bothers me.

quote:
Originally posted by Kno

I would be cooler if her faith spread in the Bloodstone Lands during the Orcus silence. So today we wouldn't have to hear about the raven bitch.


-Realistically, I guess it would have/should have, in Orcus' absence, since his followers are likely the types of people to not necessarily care about who is granting them power, as long as they're getting power, and probably aren't the most loyal people, so...One of plenty of situations where more about the event/person/place could have had more written about it.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of FaerŻn
Vol I- The Elves of FaerŻn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 24 Jun 2011 18:20:17
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AryalůmŽ
Senior Scribe

USA
666 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2011 :  13:23:36  Show Profile Send AryalůmŽ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
After reading City of the Spider Queen, I found that there were males in her clergy. They were mostly black guards, but that made me happy. I'm glad they are not sexist like Lolth. I also feel that Kiaransalee should have, or can be, a chaotic neutral deity with CE tendencies, like a Chaotic Wee Has. Plus, it would have balanced out the Dark Searing better.
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MisterX
Learned Scribe

Germany
118 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2011 :  13:57:57  Show Profile Send MisterX a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Since she's cruel and insane, giving her an evil alignment makes perfectly sense. Being a neutral deity would (by the rules, at least) make her to accept good-aligned clerics. Can't imagine that.

I've lost track of recent realmslore, since my campaigns are still in the 1370ies. :-)
---
When talking about rules (and related stuff) I always refer to 3.5e unless explicitly noted.
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3750 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2011 :  06:39:51  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
She is too vengeful to have good clerics. The whole point is that vengeance is considered a "dark" impulse, as opposed to "justice", which is impartial and impersonal. Vengeance is VERY personal. It's also difficult to control how one uses it. It can easily turn into an obsession- hence it's considered "evil" by D&D standards. (Remember Inigo Montoya? He had "an over-developed sense of vengeance". And it almost got him killed.) Her being insane and horribly cruel doesn't help, either.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3734 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2011 :  17:49:43  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Plus, she's an Undead witch queen who sacrificed everyone she knew to fuel her rise to power. Not very conducive to being good.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of FaerŻn
Vol I- The Elves of FaerŻn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 01 Jul 2011 17:49:55
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AryalůmŽ
Senior Scribe

USA
666 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2011 :  21:17:19  Show Profile Send AryalůmŽ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, yes I know vengeance is dark and considered evil by most. And I don't imagine good characters worshipping her eithwr, it's just that I myself don't see vengeance and the other things she holds dominion over one sided and particularly evil. I don't really view her as a "destroy everything" deity either. Lord Versus, where did you read that she sacrificed everyone she knew to gain power?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36736 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2011 :  21:50:05  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Plus, she's an Undead witch queen who sacrificed everyone she knew to fuel her rise to power.



And then some, if she killed her whole world.

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Not very conducive to being good.



No, but it makes Christmas shopping so much easier!

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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3734 Posts

Posted - 03 Jul 2011 :  06:35:58  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil

Lord Versus, where did you read that she sacrificed everyone she knew to gain power?


-Read Kiaransalee's history/biography. This can be found in Demihuman Deities, but the better supplement would be Elves of FaerŻn, in the 'Deities' section, given that information that was revealed about Kiaransalee since the publishing of Demihuman Deities was included within.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of FaerŻn
Vol I- The Elves of FaerŻn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore

1965 Posts

Posted - 03 Jul 2011 :  13:33:33  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not just vengeance, but disproportionate vengeance. Eye for an eye is on thing, but Kiaransalee would gleefully slay your entire clan and anyone you ever cared about for any slight, real or imagined. Neutral? Definitely not.

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Edited by - Fellfire on 03 Jul 2011 13:35:10
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe

688 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2011 :  03:51:05  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In Planescape "Dead Gods" deals with her worship in Erelhei-Cinleu in Greyhawk, in Planes of Chaos or one of those books they describe her divine realm, and On Hallowed Ground talks a little about her.

I would prefer Selvetarm be Chaotic Neutral than Kiaransalee. She is a lich who destroyed a civilization, isn't she? If alignments had scales i'd see her as the MOST evil of the drow deities to me over Lolth, and Ghaunadaur, even!

I've had thoughts of writing a story about Sharess removing Zanassu's taint from her son somehow (since she is Zandilar, too) Maybe resurrecting him and splitting him with the Tear of Selune as Tyche was split into Beshaba and Tymora...then battling and killing evil Selvetarm. In which case new Selvetarm would be Chaotic Neutral.

I'd also have Vhaeraun not be Chaotic. I'd have him be Neutral Evil or Lawful evil for the sake of balance and just so he's a more rational sort of evil.
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3750 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2011 :  07:04:54  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I could see him as NE, but LE?! Not bloody likely- he's a god of thieves, after all. That's sort of the antithesis of Law. That idea for Selvetarm is cool, though. I like that. And I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say Kisransalee is more evil than Lolth- just a very different kind of evil.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
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MisterX
Learned Scribe

Germany
118 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2011 :  07:17:15  Show Profile Send MisterX a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To have Vhearaun to be neutralÖ why not?

I think they designed him as "chaotic", because ALL elven gods areÖ

I've lost track of recent realmslore, since my campaigns are still in the 1370ies. :-)
---
When talking about rules (and related stuff) I always refer to 3.5e unless explicitly noted.
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3750 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2011 :  07:21:56  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No, not neutral, but lawful evil? Um, how about- no. It just does not fit him. Neutral evil, maybe, but NOT lawful. As for CN, that one would be really iffy for him. He's still got the dogma of drow supremacy and conquering the surface among his goals, after all.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe

688 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2011 :  08:49:42  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree that Vhaeraun being neutral would not make sense, unless some big event happened to cause it. Him being Lawful Evil would be changing his character If you go with him having merged with Eilistraee than that entity could be neutral, but not Vhaeraun before that event! Much has been written about him already and he's obviously evil! I have read the novel where Lolth being cast out is described but I can't remember it well enough. But in War of the Spider Queen, how he interacts with Shakti Hunzrin, and the Lady Penitent series there is no way his behavior could be seen as "Neutral". How he is portrayed seems Neutral Evil to me, though,

Selvetarm BECOMING Chaotic Neutral would make more sense,but then that would be an event (like the one I described) making the change.

I agree with the poster who thought he was made chaotic because the game developers chose to make all elven deities chaotic. I don't think Labelas Enoreth sounds chaotic either and if I were a game developer i'd change his alignment to lawful neutral or lawful good, and that is how I view him myself (Although I don't think about him very much)
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3734 Posts

Posted - 05 Jul 2011 :  18:24:11  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Vhaeraun is definitley evil, no doubt about that. Whether or not he'd be Chaotic, or Neutral, I personally think he'd be Neutral (with Chaotic tendencies). He's a lot less 'fleeting' and a lot more 'calculating' over the long term than I always envision the Chaotic alignment to be.

-As for Selvetarm, I'd remove his divinity completely! Given how dominated he is by Lolth, and how little free will he has/had, and how dominated his mainstream church was dominated by the Church of Lolth, and how little free will they have/had, him being an actual deity never sat well with me. Selvetarm would fit better as a powerful, unique divine servitor, like Corellon Larethian has with Felarathael and Lashrael.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of FaerŻn
Vol I- The Elves of FaerŻn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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AryalůmŽ
Senior Scribe

USA
666 Posts

Posted - 10 Jul 2011 :  21:45:26  Show Profile Send AryalůmŽ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To me, it wouldn't seem like Kiaransalee would care much about alignment, as long as it furthered her goals. I always wanted a neutral drow deity, and I very much dislike Eilistraee's goodness and light.
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