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 Umara: The Catalyst for the Rebirth of Old Thay?
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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2014 :  09:10:52  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
The following contains spoilers.

Lathander’s new Chosen, Stedd, told Umara to go home and, referring to Thay, said, “Anything that changed once can change again,” and that Umara would be a big part of it.

Oracles and Chosen are not infallible, not even their patron deities. But in the beginning of this great cataclysm that is the Sundering, their words often hold truth. The Oracle, Abelar’s son, had been right with his visions. Could Stedd be too?

If so, what fate awaits Umara and Szass Tam? What will become of the present Thay?

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 10 Mar 2014 13:25:12

The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1842 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2014 :  11:45:10  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm really hoping we get the 'Old Thay' back but with a small twist. I think it was Markustay's idea originally, but Tam gets 'bound' somehow (in those fortresses he built) and much of the undead get centered on Thaymount. The rest of the country goes back to a new Zulkirate...perhaps with some of the original Zulkirs returning. Of course, if WotC makes this renewal organic, then the culture of Thay has still changed in the last century. So we should get something similar, but not identical, on that score.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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sleyvas
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USA
11499 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2014 :  15:13:31  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
While I'd like to see Thay come back, I'd hate to see it just be some retcon. In my mind, "Thay" wasn't a place necessarily, but rather a grouping of wizards with a certain type of governance and backstory. In my mind, "Thay" could be re-instated elsewhere within the realms (with the caveat that it would have to not impinge overmuch on the activities in said area.... so areas that were little or poorly developed previously (such as portions of the Shaar, or some of the eastern portions of the shining south, or over in Maztica) could make a good place for Thayan ex-patriots to start forming a "Zulkirate/Tharchion" form of shared-power magocracy again. However, any such movement should also be more racially accepting to a degree, though perhaps they become racially biased in other ways (i.e. they continue slaving, but they will not enslave humans). The thing would be to make it a "new place", "base magocracy idea with competing schools governing", "adherence to the idea that the church shall not interfere with the state", and "using magic to improve their lives... even if it means decimating the lives of their neighbors".

If some form of "power using" group returns to Thay, I'd love to see some ethical considerations start getting thrown into the pot. For instance, the Thayans core premise was non-adherence to any "greater power" for their arcane skills. However, beings like pact magic users, warlocks, and priests all allow themselves to be conduits for another being's will. In the absence of the stringent Zulkirate, perhaps some of these other power groups have built up a beachhead in the country (for instance, Banite Priests) and will force their way into governance. This should cause internal conflict. Also, perhaps there are some hardline "Mulan only" adherents who come into conflict with new generations born outside of Thayan influence.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Shadowsoul
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Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2014 :  20:42:07  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't believe Thay should have changed to start with so I hope there is a retcon.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
1279 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2014 :  21:06:06  Show Profile  Visit Mournblade's Homepage Send Mournblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have to admit I am hoping for as much retcon as possible. Almost every change to the realms with 4e was bad. Retcon through story is OK in my book.

What I liked about "Reaver" was there was evidence of erasing parts of the plague realm. I am all for that, indeed I am hoping the sundering leaves the Spellplague a footnote and the world returns to what it was before.




A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...
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Mapolq
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Brazil
466 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2014 :  21:07:39  Show Profile Send Mapolq a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

I'm really hoping we get the 'Old Thay' back but with a small twist. I think it was Markustay's idea originally, but Tam gets 'bound' somehow (in those fortresses he built) and much of the undead get centered on Thaymount. The rest of the country goes back to a new Zulkirate...perhaps with some of the original Zulkirs returning. Of course, if WotC makes this renewal organic, then the culture of Thay has still changed in the last century. So we should get something similar, but not identical, on that score.



Yes, this would be awesome. We can't just have everything thrown out, it wouldn't make sense. And some bad ideas can be good in moderation.

Sleyvas: if a new Zulkirate wants to make a new Thay that's pretty much exactly like Old Thay, why not just put in on top of the Thayan Plateau? I think they'd like that.

Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.

Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955

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Dalor Darden
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USA
4175 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2014 :  00:20:14  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It doesn't have to be a RetCon:

Marvel does it all the time...someone travels back in time, makes one little change and BAMMO!

We get Marvel Earth # whatever.

We can get any Realms the publishers want...and no need to call it a RetCon.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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Lilianviaten
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489 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2014 :  00:39:07  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A retcon would be a terrible idea. Some people are so incensed about 4e that they are not thinking straight. If lazy storytelling was the issue with 4e, how would more lazy storytelling fix the problem?

Szass Tam pushing for absolute control of Thay was a reasonable development. Byers handled it very well, so I don't see the problem. Thay finally mobilized to become the Faerun wide threat we all know they were meant to be (although Shade has hogged the limelight).

We all knew that Tam's ritual would fail, and no tyrant keeps power forever. I think it was fairly obvious that he would lose power by the time 5e came around. But I have no clue why people treat this development like earthmotes or dragonborn. Tam was not suddenly morphed into a tyrant, nor was his takeover of Thay hard to believe.
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sleyvas
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USA
11499 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2014 :  02:19:50  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq

quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

I'm really hoping we get the 'Old Thay' back but with a small twist. I think it was Markustay's idea originally, but Tam gets 'bound' somehow (in those fortresses he built) and much of the undead get centered on Thaymount. The rest of the country goes back to a new Zulkirate...perhaps with some of the original Zulkirs returning. Of course, if WotC makes this renewal organic, then the culture of Thay has still changed in the last century. So we should get something similar, but not identical, on that score.



Yes, this would be awesome. We can't just have everything thrown out, it wouldn't make sense. And some bad ideas can be good in moderation.

Sleyvas: if a new Zulkirate wants to make a new Thay that's pretty much exactly like Old Thay, why not just put in on top of the Thayan Plateau? I think they'd like that.



Why? Because the land that they previously held as valuable and cared for with magic has been decimated with negative energy. So, if a new Zulkirate wanted to form, why would they want to form in that area, fraught as it is with issues, plus having to deal with taking it out from under hordes of undead and necromancers. Why NOT setup shop somewhere else that's little defended, is abundantly resourceful but requiring workers to start the tap flowing, and which isn't as likely to be able to draw the ire of neighbors if its taken over.

So, the question is, why go back and/or who would go there? Well, for Banites, its not a bad area, so I see Banites going there (and thus a powerful entrenchment of the church.... where a group that hated church involvement was previously installed). Warlocks would generally be viewed as unpalatable in other societies, but the people of Thay might accept them. Hell, since it doesn't require the stringent training of wizardry, many charismatic Thayans may turn to the warlock arts just for their own protection (over say things like being a paladin or being a bard which are benefited by this stat... note, leaving out sorcerers because that requires a blood line not just training). So, why would these groups just "step aside" to be governed by a group of returning mages. To do so is as one person put it "lazy storytelling". There have been factors to change the area for the past hundred years. Those factors should be thought through and reflected, not just a simple retcon thrown into place.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Caolin
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750 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2014 :  03:11:10  Show Profile Send Caolin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This really needs to have a spoiler tag in the title.
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe

Brazil
466 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2014 :  03:50:08  Show Profile Send Mapolq a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's probably due to the way we see the Realms, but I can't picture anywhere the Zulkirs would have an easier time rebuilding their nation than in the plateau itself. Unless you count the unknown continents (Osse, Anchoromé, etc. which we know nothing about). The rest of Faerūn, Kara-Tur and Zakhara is either already taken, is a wasteland or just devoid of people. The Zulkirs can't expect to conquer Durpar and establish New Thay there - they'd be kicked out by the Durpari. So unless it's a Durpari magocracy with Durpari customs and Durpari gods with some Thayans on top, I don't see it working. Whereas Szass' Thay is basically ripe for the taking by the Zulkirs (they are already there, probably with personal armies). They could quarantine Szass on Thaymount and extend the weather control spells over the entire plateau again. Also, there's still a lot of Mulan citizens living there, and undead Mulan citizens for what it's worth. They'd all just love the new Zulkirate. Anyone with half a brain in Thay ought to see that after a hundred years, Szass' world domination plan isn't going all that well, they're actually much worse off than before the Spellplague.

Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.

Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955

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Edited by - Mapolq on 10 Mar 2014 03:51:20
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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2014 :  05:04:59  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin

This really needs to have a spoiler tag in the title.
Sorry. Rectified now. No more space for the title though, so I just put the spoiler alert as the very first sentence.

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 10 Mar 2014 05:06:30
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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2014 :  05:11:20  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

Szass Tam pushing for absolute control of Thay was a reasonable development. Byers handled it very well, so I don't see the problem. Thay finally mobilized to become the Faerun wide threat we all know they were meant to be (although Shade has hogged the limelight).
Agreed. I wouldn't have Szass Tam totally kicked out just for Old Thay to be back though. As someone suggested before (in one of those Thay-centric scrolls I started not too long ago), you can spin it in a way that Szass Tam is de-powered, new zulkirs or previous zulkirs whose fate used to be unknown (and we can add Umara here as the catalyst) rise to the challenge of reestabling Old Thay, meaning the Zulkirate, but still have Szass Tam as head of Necromancy, though closely watched by all other zulkirs to keep history from repeating itself.

The trick is how to make Szass Tam less powerful than he is now.

Every beginning has an end.
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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2014 :  05:18:01  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq

It's probably due to the way we see the Realms, but I can't picture anywhere the Zulkirs would have an easier time rebuilding their nation than in the plateau itself.
Turmish suffered much from the Spellplague. Famine ran rampart to the point that even the Elder Circle, druids all and Chosen of the Oakfather, Silvanus, failed to counter it. But with the help of Lathander's Chosen, they were able to "control" the weather, the forest, the seas--the nature itself--to "heal" their land.

Red Wizards are expert weather manipulators. Once they have Szass Tam unseated (the trickiest part of the plan, I know), they can work their magic to "heal" the devastated, undead-infested portions of their land. Like the Elder Circle, they can perform some grand circle magic to accomplish this. As Umara said, the druids have their tricks, but Thayan magic is still the most sophisticated form of magic in the world.

Every beginning has an end.
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
1279 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2014 :  12:18:24  Show Profile  Visit Mournblade's Homepage Send Mournblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

A retcon would be a terrible idea. Some people are so incensed about 4e that they are not thinking straight. If lazy storytelling was the issue with 4e, how would more lazy storytelling fix the problem?




I disagree that lazy story telling was the only problem with 4e realms. The changes were non sensical and bad. Good storytelling couldn't have made them any better. The changes were placed on the setting by the developers NOT the writers.

Now the writers are making the changes, and if they can use good storytelling to erase most of those changes that is at least as good as what they did in 4e.

That said I like the ideas here about THay, but note bringing back the Zulkirate is in effect erasing nonsense that 4e brought about.


A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...
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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2014 :  13:37:13  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade

quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

A retcon would be a terrible idea. Some people are so incensed about 4e that they are not thinking straight. If lazy storytelling was the issue with 4e, how would more lazy storytelling fix the problem?
Now the writers are making the changes, and if they can use good storytelling to erase most of those changes that is at least as good as what they did in 4e.
Not necessarily. While the writers are given freedom with how they deal with specific locales and characters, there are major changes that Wizards dictates them to write about or, if such changes are the writers' ideas, Wizards has to approve first, especially they will have long-lasting effects. The return of the gods, for example. Though certain authors have long ago planned (even before the advent of 5E) some gods' return, like Paul writing about Mask, ultimately, Wizards gives the go signal.

quote:
That said I like the ideas here about THay, but note bringing back the Zulkirate is in effect erasing nonsense that 4e brought about.
When you say erasing, that's like saying 4E never happened. While I understand how you feel toward 4E changes, it is also my understanding that Wizards intends not to un-canonize the Spellplague. It happened, but the world has moved on, or is getting there.

Every beginning has an end.
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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2014 :  13:53:16  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Why? Because the land that they previously held as valuable and cared for with magic has been decimated with negative energy.
Because negative energy can be countered. Besides, Stedd, a Chosen of Lathander, single-handedly cured a Plague Land near Turmish, the very forest that is Nobanion's domain. If one boy, even if he's Lathander's most powerful Chosen, could do that--heal a land--what more can hundreds of master Red Wizards can do?

Also, as I said elsewhere, the Elder Circle of Turmish, with Stedd's help, were able to reinvigorate and even practically changed their Spellplague-ravaged land. And Umara observed the magic patterns that the Grand Ritual painted on the land and pointedly commented such appeared sloppy at best compared to Thayan magic. And while she's just one Red Wizard, her words still hold truth, especially that she herself tricked and beat Shadowcrown, Silvanus's most powerful Chosen in Turmish.

Lastly, let's not forget that Mystra is back and that the Weave is slowly but surely being repaired. The Red Wizards can finally work magic the old way.

Every beginning has an end.
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe

Brazil
466 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2014 :  15:11:51  Show Profile Send Mapolq a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dennis: yes, that's what I was saying. The best place for the Zulkirate to found New Thay is on the Thayan Plateau.

Also, a question: does the Elder Circle of Turmish have ties to the previous Elder Circle of the Emerald Enclave? I'd love it if they brought them back (and apparently in a non-contrived way too).

I will like to point, though, that wizards and other casters have a history of being portrayed as arrogant, so (though I don't know Umara's character) it would usually make sense for someone to think their preferred style of magic is more efficient and powerful than all others. But that being said, Thayan magic used to be one of the most advanced in Toril, no doubt.

Mournblade: my views exactly. I'll take good storytelling over bad any day. But I disagree with the view that the main problem with 4e was presentation. I mean, you can't make the erasing of Halruaa, most of the Vilhon, most of the Shining Lands, Mulhorand, Unther, Lapaliiya, Dambrath, Luiren, many of the Lake of Steam cities, the Shining Plains and half of the Moonsea, the decharacterisation of Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter, Calimshan, Sembia, Thay, the Great Rift, Impiltur and Damara, and the slapping-on of poorly conceived Tymanther, Akanūl, High Imaskar, Netheril, Okoth, and Shou-controlled lands make sense through good storytelling. You need coherent world-building, which is something different, and which the 4e FRCG lacked even more than story. A few of those places eventually got some world-builder treatment later in 4e, most are still non-sensical and bland.

Also, I don't argue that it made sense for Szass Tam to do what he did in Thay. I didn't read Byers' book, but I don't doubt he made it an interesting read. The point is, after a century of stagnation and obsessing over Dread Rings, it's past the time for Thayans to start wondering why the hells are they still ruling over a damn wasteland and do something about it. It's not really a problem what happened in Thay, but it should be clear by now that what Szass Tam did was a tremendous mistake. He destroyed Thay (with the help of the Spellplague, right), which was perhaps the only nation arguably poised to become the leading power in Faerūn in the late 1300s. He did it for personal gain, which is understandable. But he's utterly failing at realising that gain, and should be seeing some consequences soon.

The spontaneous rising of the Plateau was just silly, though (uh... no, a kilometre-high wall isn't really enough, we need a three-kilometre-high wall. Yes, that's it! Just say the Spellplague did it...). I don't think Byers came up with that, anyway.

Edit: typos.

Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.

Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955

My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447

Edited by - Mapolq on 10 Mar 2014 15:45:04
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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2014 :  15:34:25  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq

Dennis: yes, that's what I was saying. The best place for the Zulkirate to founf New Thay is on the Thayan Plateau.
Ah, yeah, sorry, I misread your post. Thought you agreed with Sleyvas.

quote:
Also, a question: does the Elder Circle of Turmish have ties to the previous Elder Circle of the Emerald Enclave? I'd love it if they brought them back (and apparently in a non-contrived way too).
They are one and the same. Their powers were diminished by the Spellplague, and one of them, Shadowmoon, was rendered crazy, who eventually changed her name to Cindermoon. At the end, everything turned out well for them all.

Every beginning has an end.
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
1279 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2014 :  17:58:04  Show Profile  Visit Mournblade's Homepage Send Mournblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade

quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

A retcon would be a terrible idea. Some people are so incensed about 4e that they are not thinking straight. If lazy storytelling was the issue with 4e, how would more lazy storytelling fix the problem?
Now the writers are making the changes, and if they can use good storytelling to erase most of those changes that is at least as good as what they did in 4e.
Not necessarily. While the writers are given freedom with how they deal with specific locales and characters, there are major changes that Wizards dictates them to write about or, if such changes are the writers' ideas, Wizards has to approve first, especially they will have long-lasting effects. The return of the gods, for example. Though certain authors have long ago planned (even before the advent of 5E) some gods' return, like Paul writing about Mask, ultimately, Wizards gives the go signal.

quote:
That said I like the ideas here about THay, but note bringing back the Zulkirate is in effect erasing nonsense that 4e brought about.
When you say erasing, that's like saying 4E never happened. While I understand how you feel toward 4E changes, it is also my understanding that Wizards intends not to un-canonize the Spellplague. It happened, but the world has moved on, or is getting there.



Yes I know they cannot uncanonize the Spellplague. What I mean by being 'erased' is not that it never happened but that all of the effects of the spellplague get repaired. Just like Turmish. I would like to see the 1490DR Map mirror the 1358-1370DR map and leave all the SPellplague nonsense to history and lore.


A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2014 :  19:02:13  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If bad storytelling brings back the Realms I loved then BRING IT ON!

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe

Brazil
466 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2014 :  21:31:16  Show Profile Send Mapolq a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

If bad storytelling brings back the Realms I loved then BRING IT ON!



Yup, I recently expressed a similar view. Not that I like bad storytelling, obviously, but that bad storytelling was the only way out for some world-building they need to do in order to sanitise the Realms. But then, when a good story is actually staring at your face, don't be stupid, WotC.

Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.

Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955

My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447
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Eltheron
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740 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2014 :  22:05:57  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

If bad storytelling brings back the Realms I loved then BRING IT ON!


Has bad story-telling ever been a good foundation for future story-telling?


"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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Mapolq
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Brazil
466 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2014 :  22:21:35  Show Profile Send Mapolq a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

If bad storytelling brings back the Realms I loved then BRING IT ON!


Has bad story-telling ever been a good foundation for future story-telling?





Well, it seems you're using "bad" and "good" as an antithesis to make it sound obvious, but if you think about it, it's not that clear-cut. I think it is pretty common sense that something can start out bad and then improve. What I'm saying in this case is that we'll need to take some bad-tasting medicine so we can hopefully enjoy the nice meals later. But we've been through that quite a bit, so I'll try not to extend myself.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely want the best possible stories they can deliver. I'm just saying that if we want a more solid Realms, the best possible will still not be very good right now, by necessity.

Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.

Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955

My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447

Edited by - Mapolq on 10 Mar 2014 22:32:46
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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 11 Mar 2014 :  00:07:10  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On the ideas I presented before that would be possibly better options for a rebuild than returning to Thay:

Durpar is far from a strong nation. Most of its cities have been toppled. They're only surviving by paying off the nearby monsters in the beastlands, specifically the vampire lord Saed. Thayans could use this to their advantage by unsettling the status quo in the beastlands (for instance by killing the vampire lord) and possibly allying and/or subjugating portions of the monster populace (a role they've performed often in the past).

The Eastern Shaar/Okoth also would be viable territory (granted, they may have to ferret out some snake folk.... but they're good at hunting down and killing small groups). After all, it should be easier to add water to the shaar with an entire ocean nearby (magical desalination should be a breeze) than say clearing all the rogue undead from Thay and clearing a land infused with negative energy. In fact, if they could conquer all of this and form some kind of alliance with the beastlands for troops.... hell, they might be able to march on some other countries in the south.

Again, I don't have a problem with people returning to Thay, but if they do... it makes no sense that it would be slam, bam, we're back to the old Thay. Thay will have elements in their culture that will have heavily changed them. Personally, I'd prefer if there were actually some kind of "split" along these lines. Hell, if the Mulhorandi come back, there may even be 3 different types of "wizardly" kingdoms in the area that are rebuilding (i.e. High Imaskar would likely be displaced by the Mulhorandi.... as the Mulhorandi who vanished were no small number.... of course, presuming they didn't get their population decimated in Abeir or something).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sfdragon
Great Reader

2285 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2014 :  02:47:26  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
.... but what if we get new thay, that's like old halruua?

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


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Magister's GAmbit
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe

Brazil
466 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2014 :  02:51:06  Show Profile Send Mapolq a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Durpar is surviving alone against the monsters of Veldorn, and that vampire hasn't conquered the entire nation yet. That speaks volumes. If the Thayans can somehow subdue the vampire and the denizens of Veldorn, they might do the smart thing and ask for tribute like the vampire is doing instead of trying to get themselves killed by transforming Durpar into New Thay.

Seriously, why try to topple the entire monstrous hierarchy of Veldorn and then Durpar instead of neutering Szass Tam, who's probably the only sentient creature on Toril who likes the Plateau of Thay the way it is? The Zulkirate can go to pretty much every power in Faerūn and say "hey, we're taking down old Szazzy, wanna lend a hand?" and 80% of them (good, neutral or evil) would jump at it like crazy. Late 1300s Thay was actually awesome for Faerūn at large compared to Szass' wasteland realm (not to mention for Thayans, of course). Rashemen, Thesk, Aglarond and Mulhorand (if they return) would probably be the ones to say "no", due to inherent distrust of anything that comes from Thay, but the rest would probably agree to at least provide intelligence and not do anything that could help Szass Tam. The guy provides little or no commerce to anyone, little or no support for any foreign initiatives, just freaking undead hordes. Who benefits from undead hordes, apart from Szass Tam himself, and Bane, I suppose, since he seems to have some kind of plan for him?

Ah, not to mention he seems to want to destroy the whole world with the Dread Rings? And hasn't done any actual progress in a hundred years, so there's no real reason for the Zulkirs to believe they're on the winning side. Really, Szass Tam made a serious gamble, he could have lucked out if his plan had realised itself in 10 years or so, tops, but after a hundred I'm amazed he's not ash yet.

Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.

Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955

My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447

Edited by - Mapolq on 11 Mar 2014 10:37:43
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Eltheron
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740 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2014 :  05:49:03  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I never really liked the concept of Dread Rings. Particularly when one was just randomly placed near Neverwinter, it just felt like a bad plot device used way too many times.

I'd like to see Larloch consume Szass Tam and take him back to Warlock's Crypt to live out his unlife as an enslaved servant. The resulting power vacuum between the unliving and the living would collapse Thay into total chaos, and would present an opportunity for surviving nobility to reclaim their lands and positions.

It would remind everyone of Larloch's power and supremacy in the Art, while simultaneously destroying Tam's stranglehold on Thay. I'd even like to see the (new) zulkirs forbid the necromantic arts and destroy all of the undead. Then necromancy and the unliving would go back "underground" where they belong. Thay was a million times more interesting with the scheming - and living - zulkirs.

As for Umara playing a role, I really have no interest in reading more about her. She's neither a hero nor a compelling anti-hero IMO.

What Thay really needs (along with us) is a novel series detailing a hidden conclave of Red Wizards that have been underground and plotting for more than 100 years. It should have clear and interesting ties to the old ruling council, with ties to other exiled Red Wizards across Faerun. It should also have deep ritualistic ties to a secret past, something on the level of the real-world masons or similar to that. something we can sink our creative teeth into as both novel readers and DMs.



"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer

Edited by - Eltheron on 11 Mar 2014 06:00:20
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe

Brazil
466 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2014 :  10:41:33  Show Profile Send Mapolq a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Aren't all the current Zulkirs already liches? I suppose they could outlaw necromancy and consider themselves the only ones who had sufficient power/responsibility to use it... but that wouldn't really push it to the underground. More like push it to the ivory tower or something.

Unless there's a new batch of living Zulkirs I haven't heard about. In any case, the conclave idea sounds really awesome. But I think it would make sense for the current Zulkirs to be the ones leading it, and to unseat Szass Tam, unless there's been another major power shake.

Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.

Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955

My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447

Edited by - Mapolq on 11 Mar 2014 10:45:04
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1842 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2014 :  10:53:18  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just real quick. I'm in the 'Restory Thay' camp (in Thay, not Durpar or wherever). There are plenty of reasons for them not to return, I get that. But I want THAY back (with reasonable changes that is), not Thay/Durpar. Regardless, the plot hooks left from the Reaver make it obvious Thay will be restored on the plateau in some form or another.

Okay that said...

quote:
What Thay really needs (along with us) is a novel series detailing a hidden conclave of Red Wizards that have been underground and plotting for more than 100 years. It should have clear and interesting ties to the old ruling council, with ties to other exiled Red Wizards across Faerun. It should also have deep ritualistic ties to a secret past, something on the level of the real-world masons or similar to that. something we can sink our creative teeth into as both novel readers and DMs.

THIS is a great idea. Those Zulkirs who survived have been plotting for the last century? Works for me. Also, what if they got that ancient artifact (from the 1e days) working again? It would empower them to stop thwart Tam.

As far as Larloch is concerned. I'm convinced that he set Tam up for failure from the beginning. I'm also convinced that he has something to do with why Tam hasn't moved forward with his plans in the last century. I don't want Tam becoming enthralled or imprisoned by Larloch though (Tam is too powerful for that and Larloch is working on other things anyway).

I think the Dread Rings should be used to 'contain' Tam. Pieces of his soul could be broken up and imprisoned in them. He sort of becomes another Eltab but throughout Thay rather than just Eltabbar. I would allow him to project his influence, so he's still a danger, but said influence could take centuries to see him freed.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.

Edited by - The Arcanamach on 11 Mar 2014 10:55:41
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe

Brazil
466 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2014 :  16:09:59  Show Profile Send Mapolq a Private Message  Reply with Quote
People are having some awesome ideas all around. I hope WotC is thinking on these lines. Or that they'll shamelessly steal it from you and pretend it was their idea from the very beginning.

Just to be clear, I understand Szass Tam is an individual of extreme power. But as an empire builder, he's one of the biggest pushovers in the history of Faerūn (or more likely he doesn't bother with it at all, which then means his land can be conquered with ease by a new Zulkirate). I mean, ninety years have gone since the Spellplague, and Thay is building fortresses at Nethentir, Nethjet and Surcross (as per the FRCG) - places they had entirely under their grasp before Szass took over? He didn't bother to occupy Mulhorand after its people disappeared. He really should know better - if he wants to be a ruler of a natior, besides being a hugely powerful lich, he ought to give it some thought... or as I prefer, he should be pushed away by people who do give it some thought.

Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.

Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955

My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447

Edited by - Mapolq on 12 Mar 2014 01:59:08
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