Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 Umara: The Catalyst for the Rebirth of Old Thay?

Note: You must be registered in order to post a reply.
To register, click here. Registration is FREE!

Screensize:
UserName:
Password:
Format Mode:
Format: BoldItalicizedUnderlineStrikethrough Align LeftCenteredAlign Right Horizontal Rule Insert HyperlinkInsert Email Insert CodeInsert QuoteInsert List
   
Message:

* HTML is OFF
* Forum Code is ON
Smilies
Smile [:)] Big Smile [:D] Cool [8D] Blush [:I]
Tongue [:P] Evil [):] Wink [;)] Clown [:o)]
Black Eye [B)] Eight Ball [8] Frown [:(] Shy [8)]
Shocked [:0] Angry [:(!] Dead [xx(] Sleepy [|)]
Kisses [:X] Approve [^] Disapprove [V] Question [?]
Rolling Eyes [8|] Confused [?!:] Help [?:] King [3|:]
Laughing [:OD] What [W] Oooohh [:H] Down [:E]

  Check here to include your profile signature.
Check here to subscribe to this topic.
    

T O P I C    R E V I E W
Dennis Posted - 09 Mar 2014 : 09:10:52
The following contains spoilers.

Lathander’s new Chosen, Stedd, told Umara to go home and, referring to Thay, said, “Anything that changed once can change again,” and that Umara would be a big part of it.

Oracles and Chosen are not infallible, not even their patron deities. But in the beginning of this great cataclysm that is the Sundering, their words often hold truth. The Oracle, Abelar’s son, had been right with his visions. Could Stedd be too?

If so, what fate awaits Umara and Szass Tam? What will become of the present Thay?
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Nicolai Withander Posted - 09 Apr 2014 : 14:35:19
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Apologies in-advance for this over-long post, but in order to explain how I have drawn my conclusions, i have to explain all the 'clues'. Please bear with me.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Mystra has had a very hands-off approach to Larloch, so I'm not sure I can buy him being some fallen servant of Mystryl, or having worked against the Weave.

I'm also unsure where this idea came from that the Shadow Weave is half of the original Weave... If it was part of the original Weave, it never would have needed to have been created, it already would have existed. And if it was half of the original Weave, it wouldn't be weaker than the Weaver, it'd be equally strong. Lastly, if it was part of the original Weave, then it still should have been the purview of the goddess of the Weave.

Well, The Weave (in its original form) held both the Light & Darkness - the powers that Selune and Shar held.

What we've had all along in the published Realms is the Arcane Weave, just called 'The Weave' by nearly everyone, because almost no-one knew it had been 'lessened' after the fall of Netheril. At the moment Karsus snatched the power away from Mystryl, the energy itself was returned to its primal, chaotic form, because he couldn't 'hold it together' (quite literally). This is the time when I think Larloch did whatever it was that he did. Note that he is trying to CONTROL Gates, and the portal-network itself is known as The Road of Stars & Shadows.

My Conjecture:
Somehow, he was able to unspool the strands of darkness & light from one-another, and when the mantle of the weave fell upon that 'special' girl in Cormyr, and she became Mystra, no-one realized that some of the power of The Weave had already been 'leeched-off'. It probably took years - centuries even - to fully unravel the two: he was 'pulling at the loose threads', so to speak.

The Weave as we have always known it was not 'all magic' as we were lead to believe in earlier editions - this was proven in 3e. I assume Mystra must have known she was missing that half of her power, or maybe she never noticed because she wasn't the same goddess of magic as before. Like I said, it may have been an extremely gradual thing, and by the time she took note of it, it was too late... and then the ToT happened. I think the Avatar Crisis was also orchestrated by Shar (note her Black Chronology), and that she foresaw the coming of Cyric and the death of Mystra, which gave her the chance to finally sever Mystra's connection to her half of the power once-and-for-all. However, when Mystra2 was killed it set-off the Spellplague, and ALL magic ran-amok; a good deal of 'old magic' had been created back when The weave was whole, and those artifacts had connections to both sides of the power. Note that Halruaa - inheritors of Netheril - got hit the hardest: only magic containing both halves of The Weave exploded in a cataclysmic fashion. That was because the magic was 'unraveling'.

In fact, there was so much raw energy flowing around everywhere that even Lolth made a try for it (with her Demonweave).

So let us just say that there are two sides to the magic - the 'blue' side, which = life/light (and Selune's portion), and the 'shadow' side, which = darkness/death. Silver Fire is the Woven strands of both - part of the conjoined Weave which existed right up until recently (because it took Larloch and Shar around 1300 years to fully untangle the two from each other). This is why in that story where Larloch meets Elminster in The Wood Between the Worlds, he misses the 'light side' of the magic, and asks El to 'caress' him with it - he is no longer able to touch it himself. (I am assuming the light/life half of the Silver Fire is anathema to his undead state).

It also helps explain the 'thing' between Larloch and Halaster; Halaster was probably a precursor to Larloch - he had himself attempted (milenia earlier) to separate the two sides of the magic, which eventually drove him mad. Picture Shar whispering 'dark secrets' into their ears - they left themselves open to that when they delved too deep into The weave's nature: The same thing happened to Karsus (according to the 3e super-module trilogy). When Halaster learned of Larloch's treachery (eventually, and because he himself was familiar with that path of knowledge), he tried to take control of the gates himself, to keep Larloch from getting control over them (once again, the Road of Stars & Shadows, which is actually the physical representation of The Weave - a vast web (which Ed called it) of energy encasing Toril. That IS the PoL&D - the Gates are the 'nodes' where strands meet, and if you control the Gates, you control The Weave.

When Halster was 'cured' of his insanity (Shar's influenced removed, as per Elminster in Hell), he went back to his plan to stop Larloch, which in-turn would have stopped the Spellplague... but he was too late. Cyric killed Mystra and the final strands unraveled, and Halaster soul was shattered (or Sundered... much like the Weave itself, no?) Thats why the portal network disappeared in 4e - The Weave WAS the network!

You have to look at Ed's writing as one BIG story, not lots of little ones - he's been giving us pieces of the puzzle all along, and I think when he writes the final installment of The Sundering series, all the loose threads (in-setting and without) will all come together. The Weave will be restored, the Gates will reopen, 'life' will flow back into all the dark paces in the world... and we will have a renewal. Not a reboot, but a rebirth.



This is probably the most interesting thread I have read here... I also think its kind of scary if all these things are linked.

From what I have been able to gather from this and many other places, Larloch reveres the weave. Meaning that he would not do anything to destroy it. The portals that he wanted to control I have always thought of as the security in airports... a way of monitoring travel be it different creatures, divine as well as mortal. Again fitting the whole knowledge is power and the fact that information is a big part of warfare and security. Why would this be important? Well perhaps he is really hiding/protecting/ containing something that must not be gained control of. And the CIA surveillance thing he is doing with the portals is his “Echelon” system. Why... to make sure that nobody enters anywhere close so the "thing" could be endangered. What might this thing be? I for one have absolutely no clue and anything might be possible (reading this thread I'm beginning to think Ed might be a lot smarter and skilled author than I had ever imagined).

If I had to guess, I would say he was keeping a little part of Mystra essence. Like her phylactery.

I believe that everything Larloch does is a mathematically calculated action to better whatever situation he's working on. Meaning that if is working alongside Shar (which is news to me! Is/was he a shadow weave user at some point??) then he has some benevolent agenda of his own orchestrations that not even Shar might understand or know about. I have seen Larloch for a long time kind of like Severus Snape. I know that he is evil, but being very calculating and lacking empathy might simply come across as evil. Like Dr. Manhattan??? I don’t see the destabilizing actions of Shar in Larloch or the apparent actions of him. Meaning that I don’t think they are "real" allies.

The fact that Halaster was trying to stop him is an indication that Larloch might not be as "good" as we have been thinking and that he might in fact have some sort of destructive nature that might have eluded us... Especially if Elminster also thinks he has to have a talk with Larloch. Or they might just not fathom what he doing and simply fails to see the big picture. This though I find unlikely. Elminster being 1400 years old and Halaster being 5500 years old, albeit have been dormant for a long period of his 5500 years.

The FR wiki page about Larloch seems to be well documented, and (im no expert) but I see not reference to any Shar/Larloch collaboration.

Ioulaum chose another path, when he saw how fragile magic was... simply failing every time the guardian died. He saw that it was a covered title and that this would simply happen again. I see him as haven chosen exile. Ofc who knows if he's actually inventing the whole level 10+ psionics to actually restore the glory of Netherill... But I find him uninteresting.

Larloch is a puller of strings and most realms space entities are the puppets. Its apparent that Ed does not give the name Shadow King for nothing or because he thought it was cool. There’s some sort of reason for it. I might be that he is/was indeed a shadow weave user, or that he’s Shars gimp. Personally I think its because Larloch works in mysterious ways.. Always working in the shadows...

The fact that he created the Blueflame Items tells me that he’s not on Shars side either.

I also think that Larloch also want to find the “God Particle” of magic. I think he will spare no expense. I think Karsus and Ioulaum have been close, and I think that Larloch might be getting close aswell.


PS. The part about Shar whispering in Karsus’ ear to get him to create his avatar spell I think is bull poop. I would think this was part of the 4th ed Shar hype and has was no part of the original lore, so think was invented to make her even more influential… IMO that is.

PPS. ANd where is the Srinshee in this. If Ed says she is as powerful as Larloch, surely she has some greater than normal insight in the scemes of characters as Larloch, Szass Tam or Shar?
Eltheron Posted - 18 Mar 2014 : 20:36:28
quote:
Originally posted by ksu_bond

And remember that N'asr, god of night and the dead, was actually Myrkul ... so wouldn't that have meant that previously it would have been Jergal?


I didn't remember that! It could indeed have been Jergal.

Maybe Jergal (way back when) considered it a major coup to "break" the portfolio triad of Dawn-Noon-Dusk, but perhaps didn't realize that it would tie him into the rising and falling of Amaunator's aspects.

Stealing it from Amaunator might have caused the Sun god to shift into a slow "death" because Jergal had won and "arisen" as the new Dusk Lord? But in the fullness of time, dusk would not last forever so it became necessary to shed the Dusk portfolio?

Did Jergal intentionally decide to throw off his mantle (and several portfolios) in order to avoid dying himself?

And poor At'ar, where was she lost if this was the case?

ksu_bond Posted - 18 Mar 2014 : 18:41:09
And remember that N'asr, god of night and the dead, was actually Myrkul ... so wouldn't that have meant that previously it would have been Jergal?
Eltheron Posted - 18 Mar 2014 : 15:55:33
quote:
Originally posted by ksu_bond

I wanted to throw in a possible candidate for the Dusk Lord...At'ar the Merciless (see p.27 in Faiths & Avatars under Amaunator)...
At'ar the Merciless, the Yellow Goddess, is worshiped by the Bedine "symbolizing the heat of the desert sun", and is thought to be a "spiteful and faithless woman whose fury in the full day strikes fear into the bravest hearts. She is a harlot who betrayes her lawful husband Kozah every day to sleep with N'asr, god of night and the dead." It goes on to say that she is a "twisted memory of Amaunator".

Now my thought is exactly what sort of memory is At'ar? The wording doesn't suggest to mean that At'ar is nothing more than an aspect of Amaunator. Unfortunately, a memory could be any number of things...BUT...given our discussion is it possible that this memory is of a previous deity of the sun? Since we know that Toril's sun has been destroyed at least once is it possible that Lathander/At'ar/Amaunator have each been the deity of the sun?

Certainly At'ar fits the roll of the Dusk Lord, as she is friendly with the god of night and the dead...and let us not forget that the hottest part of the day is typically in the afternoon as the sun is setting.

Thus: Lathander (Dawn) / Amaunator (Noon) / At'ar (Dusk)

Thoughts?


There's a lot that I like about this. I'm not fond of the "twisted memory of Amaunator" thing in canon, but -

What if At'ar was the daughter of Amaunator, and a sister to Lathander? If At'ar was somehow "lost" to the gods rather than killed, Amaunator might have felt a duty to take over her duties as the Lady of Dusk and he would be both the Dusk Lord and the God of the high (noon) sun along with order, time, and so on.

The Bedine would not have necessarily known about Amaunator taking over for At'ar. Then when Amaunator died due to neglect, Lathander could have risen and similarly "watched over" his sister At'ar's portfolio and responsibilities.

The other interesting part here is about At'ar being Kozah's wife. Perhaps Kozah finally had enough of the cheating and was responsible for making At'ar disappear.

Also, Jergal might have had the dusk portfolio thrust upon him, rather than taking it willingly.

sfdragon Posted - 18 Mar 2014 : 15:55:16
quote:
Originally posted by ksu_bond

I wanted to throw in a possible candidate for the Dusk Lord...At'ar the Merciless (see p.27 in Faiths & Avatars under Amaunator)...
At'ar the Merciless, the Yellow Goddess, is worshiped by the Bedine "symbolizing the heat of the desert sun", and is thought to be a "spiteful and faithless woman whose fury in the full day strikes fear into the bravest hearts. She is a harlot who betrayes her lawful husband Kozah every day to sleep with N'asr, god of night and the dead." It goes on to say that she is a "twisted memory of Amaunator".

Now my thought is exactly what sort of memory is At'ar? The wording doesn't suggest to mean that At'ar is nothing more than an aspect of Amaunator. Unfortunately, a memory could be any number of things...BUT...given our discussion is it possible that this memory is of a previous deity of the sun? Since we know that Toril's sun has been destroyed at least once is it possible that Lathander/At'ar/Amaunator have each been the deity of the sun?

Certainly At'ar fits the roll of the Dusk Lord, as she is friendly with the god of night and the dead...and let us not forget that the hottest part of the day is typically in the afternoon as the sun is setting.

Thus: Lathander (Dawn) / Amaunator (Noon) / At'ar (Dusk)

Thoughts?


at'ar might have been the first sun god....

if At'ar was destroyed or cast out then to some extent be why Jergal ended up with the dusk portfolio.....
The Arcanamach Posted - 18 Mar 2014 : 13:27:20
quote:
I wanted to throw in a possible candidate for the Dusk Lord...At'ar the Merciless (see p.27 in Faiths & Avatars under Amaunator)...
At'ar the Merciless, the Yellow Goddess, is worshiped by the Bedine "symbolizing the heat of the desert sun", and is thought to be a "spiteful and faithless woman whose fury in the full day strikes fear into the bravest hearts. She is a harlot who betrayes her lawful husband Kozah every day to sleep with N'asr, god of night and the dead." It goes on to say that she is a "twisted memory of Amaunator".

Now my thought is exactly what sort of memory is At'ar? The wording doesn't suggest to mean that At'ar is nothing more than an aspect of Amaunator. Unfortunately, a memory could be any number of things...BUT...given our discussion is it possible that this memory is of a previous deity of the sun? Since we know that Toril's sun has been destroyed at least once is it possible that Lathander/At'ar/Amaunator have each been the deity of the sun?

Certainly At'ar fits the roll of the Dusk Lord, as she is friendly with the god of night and the dead...and let us not forget that the hottest part of the day is typically in the afternoon as the sun is setting.

Thus: Lathander (Dawn) / Amaunator (Noon) / At'ar (Dusk)

Thoughts?

Although I don't worry over much about the origins/fates of deities in my homebrew this seems like solid logic to me ksu.
sleyvas Posted - 18 Mar 2014 : 12:05:59
quote:
Originally posted by ksu_bond

I wanted to throw in a possible candidate for the Dusk Lord...At'ar the Merciless (see p.27 in Faiths & Avatars under Amaunator)...
At'ar the Merciless, the Yellow Goddess, is worshiped by the Bedine "symbolizing the heat of the desert sun", and is thought to be a "spiteful and faithless woman whose fury in the full day strikes fear into the bravest hearts. She is a harlot who betrayes her lawful husband Kozah every day to sleep with N'asr, god of night and the dead." It goes on to say that she is a "twisted memory of Amaunator".

Now my thought is exactly what sort of memory is At'ar? The wording doesn't suggest to mean that At'ar is nothing more than an aspect of Amaunator. Unfortunately, a memory could be any number of things...BUT...given our discussion is it possible that this memory is of a previous deity of the sun? Since we know that Toril's sun has been destroyed at least once is it possible that Lathander/At'ar/Amaunator have each been the deity of the sun?

Certainly At'ar fits the roll of the Dusk Lord, as she is friendly with the god of night and the dead...and let us not forget that the hottest part of the day is typically in the afternoon as the sun is setting.

Thus: Lathander (Dawn) / Amaunator (Noon) / At'ar (Dusk)

Thoughts?



Don't forget, we also had Re. Granted a different pantheon, but a sun god no less.
ksu_bond Posted - 18 Mar 2014 : 10:54:16
I wanted to throw in a possible candidate for the Dusk Lord...At'ar the Merciless (see p.27 in Faiths & Avatars under Amaunator)...
At'ar the Merciless, the Yellow Goddess, is worshiped by the Bedine "symbolizing the heat of the desert sun", and is thought to be a "spiteful and faithless woman whose fury in the full day strikes fear into the bravest hearts. She is a harlot who betrayes her lawful husband Kozah every day to sleep with N'asr, god of night and the dead." It goes on to say that she is a "twisted memory of Amaunator".

Now my thought is exactly what sort of memory is At'ar? The wording doesn't suggest to mean that At'ar is nothing more than an aspect of Amaunator. Unfortunately, a memory could be any number of things...BUT...given our discussion is it possible that this memory is of a previous deity of the sun? Since we know that Toril's sun has been destroyed at least once is it possible that Lathander/At'ar/Amaunator have each been the deity of the sun?

Certainly At'ar fits the roll of the Dusk Lord, as she is friendly with the god of night and the dead...and let us not forget that the hottest part of the day is typically in the afternoon as the sun is setting.

Thus: Lathander (Dawn) / Amaunator (Noon) / At'ar (Dusk)

Thoughts?
Markustay Posted - 16 Mar 2014 : 15:17:38
Yes... I know its just another name for blue. Thats what I said (at least, thats what I thought I said).

Ed does not drop things randomly - he is very specific about certain bits of lore, which include both place-names and colors of magic.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Realms fans who pay attention to Larloch, and the colors of magic in my writings, and the notion that the details (or "storytelling tools," if you will) involved in all of this might just be planned are . . . wise.
sleyvas Posted - 16 Mar 2014 : 07:13:07
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

AFAIK, all Chosen are Harpers, and more then Mystra sponsors the Harpers - Selune is included in that group. Thats why they have silver Fire. I have to wonder, if before Mystra - when Mystryl still reigned - did Chosen have a choice as to which half of the magic they wanted to be filled with? That might help explain Larloch.

I'm so stupid - I missed the obvious. Shar's magical color isn't black, its Indigo! The Aura around her 'dark moon' is a very deep purple! Somewhere between silver and purple is cerulean - the color of Weave-based magic!

Thus, the 'Cerulean Wave' that rolled across Toril disrupted anything that contained both halves of the magic - the Silver and Purple, by stripping-out the blue half, causing the other half to explode violently (because the malefic {negative/shadow} magic pertains to chaos, death, and destruction). It was almost as if the magic was 'uncoiling' as it swept across the world.

quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

I'm not entirely sure what you're suggesting here. What leads you to think there was a "first" god of magic before Mystryl?
Its just part of the on-going supposition here, nothing canon. Everything should begin with 'if'.




cerulean is just another word for blue (specifically, its a "a deep sky-blue color"). You guys are getting way too deep into this color analyzation.
Eltheron Posted - 15 Mar 2014 : 20:25:43
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

EDIT: There were (at least) two different Illefarns, which would at-least explain part of the discrepancy. Eaerlann outlasted the first one, and Miyeritar, IIRC.


Was there also a second incarnation of Mieyritar around -3595DR? Maybe an attempt to reclaim the ruins or drow building an outpost?

Eltheron Posted - 15 Mar 2014 : 20:22:52
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

I'm not entirely sure what you're suggesting here. What leads you to think there was a "first" god of magic before Mystryl?
Its just part of the on-going supposition here, nothing canon. Everything should begin with 'if'.


Well, yeah. I guess. I mean, I was curious if there was something specific that strongly led you to think there was another god of magic before Mystryl.

Speculation is all well and good, but at some point speculation is just randomly casting about if there isn't something that leads you toward a conclusion. And that was a pretty specific supposition.

Mapolq Posted - 15 Mar 2014 : 18:26:29
That's interesting... but I think there's a pretty clear point that it was one world before, which was sundered (and this Sundering exists without time, manifesting itself in several ways, etc). So both worlds were lost from one another, and we have no idea whether Abeir was lost from other worlds such as Earth, but we should probably assume that as well (given the remarkable lack of Abeirans around here...).
Markustay Posted - 15 Mar 2014 : 18:11:44
EDIT: There were (at least) two different Illefarns, which would at-least explain part of the discrepancy. Eaerlann outlasted the first one, and Miyeritar, IIRC.

Another thread just jarred my memory of something I was considering last night, just before I fell asleep. Aoskar - the god of pathways.

What if it was Aoskar that was lost? How long ago did he try to usurp the Lady of Pain? And was her destroying him the reason why she is in 'the Cage'?

Another occurred to me as well - what if we are looking at Abeir all wrong? Think about the name of the setting, and its most basic premise... Abeir wasn't 'lost', The Realms were! What if Abeir was the world that was ruined during the godwar, and Ao twinned it and created Toril? A place for the new gods - the deities.

I realize that doesn't shoe-horn so neatly with a lot of existing lore, but as I said, it was just another random thought of mine.
Markustay Posted - 15 Mar 2014 : 18:00:21
AFAIK, all Chosen are Harpers, and more then Mystra sponsors the Harpers - Selune is included in that group. Thats why they have silver Fire. I have to wonder, if before Mystra - when Mystryl still reigned - did Chosen have a choice as to which half of the magic they wanted to be filled with? That might help explain Larloch.

I'm so stupid - I missed the obvious. Shar's magical color isn't black, its Indigo! The Aura around her 'dark moon' is a very deep purple! Somewhere between silver and purple is cerulean - the color of Weave-based magic!

Thus, the 'Cerulean Wave' that rolled across Toril disrupted anything that contained both halves of the magic - the Silver and Purple, by stripping-out the blue half, causing the other half to explode violently (because the malefic {negative/shadow} magic pertains to chaos, death, and destruction). It was almost as if the magic was 'uncoiling' as it swept across the world.

quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

I'm not entirely sure what you're suggesting here. What leads you to think there was a "first" god of magic before Mystryl?
Its just part of the on-going supposition here, nothing canon. Everything should begin with 'if'.
Eltheron Posted - 15 Mar 2014 : 13:55:33
quote:
Originally posted by Asharak

quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

In -3595DR there was a war between Eaerlann, Mieyritar, and Illefarn which caused Netheril to restrict trade with all of them (they didn't want to risk offending any of them), but that was 100 years before Selune's Tears were in the sky. The Nether scrolls were discovered in -3533DR, which is the beginning of the "Nether Age" and ending the First Age.


Well, Mieyritar was conquered in -11300 DR by Aryvandaar and destroyed in -10500 DR by the Dark Disaster, so ...

From where come the reference to a conflict between Eaerlann and Illefarn ?


This timeline has the -3595 item:
http://www.o-love.net/realms/fr_time_notable.html

I have not noticed errors on that site before, but perhaps it's a mistype. It's replicated in a few other online Realms timelines, so it might have been an error copied from an original source.

Or it could be that a remnant of Mieyritar was still there at that time.

Checking an early version of GHotR, the -3595 item isn't there at all, so perhaps it was an error printed in a very early source that got copied to several timeline sites.

Asharak Posted - 15 Mar 2014 : 10:18:17
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

In -3595DR there was a war between Eaerlann, Mieyritar, and Illefarn which caused Netheril to restrict trade with all of them (they didn't want to risk offending any of them), but that was 100 years before Selune's Tears were in the sky. The Nether scrolls were discovered in -3533DR, which is the beginning of the "Nether Age" and ending the First Age.




Well, Mieyritar was conquered in -11300 DR by Aryvandaar and destroyed in -10500 DR by the Dark Disaster, so ...

From where come the reference to a conflict between Eaerlann and Illefarn ?
Mapolq Posted - 15 Mar 2014 : 02:25:46
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Mystra was pretty much always involved with blue glows around magic. Similarly, Azuth's symbol was "A Human Hand, forefinger
pointing upward, outlined in a nimbus of blue fire". The whole "silver fire" was pretty much Chosen.



Yes. Blue seems to be "the color of magic" so that brings us the question of why Silver Fire. Among other questions...
sleyvas Posted - 15 Mar 2014 : 00:23:42
I wouldn't put the first sun god as the first god of magic. He/she/it was the creation/child of Selune though. He/she/it was later "snatched from the sky" by the Night Serpent (presumably Dendar). Finally, before the Days of Thunder a sun returned. Now, whether this was the original sun or a new sun...

However, during the Tearfall, the primordial known as Asgorath/Asgoroth the world shaper hurled the ice moon zotha down (per 4e FR campaign guide) and THEN shattered the crystal sun with its breath (the shards of the shattered crystal sun made him bleed, which led to dragons coming about following the tearfall). Now, did the sun go away at that time? Well around that time was when Ao twinned the worlds, so presumably not. However, what happened with all those shards of the crystal sun? Did they become the tears? Where did the new sun come from (since the other was shattered)?


Also, there's this from FOR1 Draconomicon

"...The World was still flat, here before the beginning of Time, before Asgorath the World-Shaper folded the cloth of existence into its final form. The World was flat, and above it hung the Crystal Sun that Zotha had wrought before Asgorath cast him down. Asgorath soared above the World and looked down upon it, and she saw that it was good.

#147;And so Asgorath bent her form around the Crystal Sun, and touched her breath to it. And the Crystal Sun burst into fragments that pierced the flesh of Asgorath, and her blood fell on the World. Where the drops fell, the Powers of the World and the Powers of the Crystal Sun came together, and the Spawn of Asgorath came forth upon the face of the World.

Red, they were, red that would later depart from its purity But here before the beginning of Time, their red was the pure red of the shattered Crystal Sun. They spread their wings and took to the skies, circling around the still, cold form of Asgorath. One after another, score upon score, they bent their breath against the body of Asgorath, and the skies rang with their lamentations. Only one of the Spawn of Asgorath withheld his breath. Instead, he pulled a shard of the Crystal Sun from the flesh of Asgorath, and used it to draw blood from his own flesh, and this blood fell upon the face of the World.

#147;As before, there was movement where the blood fell, but the creatures that came forth from this blood were not of the pure red. Colored like the products of the World
they were, like the unloving metals. And the Renegade raised his voice, and his voice was a trumpet: '#145;I too have Created.#146;'

#147;The form of Asgorath began to stir, as the Renegade knew it must. The Renegade spread his wings and flew, and the Spawn of the Renegade followed him into the
farthest reaches of the world.#148;"


There's some further stuff in the Draconomicon to hint that the Renegade was known as Bahmat in Thorass, and thus Bahamut. Also, there's some discussion that the word "breath" was instead "breaths" in the original text and hints that Asgorath was a multi-headed draconic being (or possibly just multi-breathed... something that the authors don't mention). The spawn of Asgorath are obviously red dragons.
sleyvas Posted - 14 Mar 2014 : 23:39:04
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Its weird, but lately i have been spotting references to blue fire all over the place in old 2nd edition sourcebooks and i'm sure one reference to the birth of Selune and Shar mentions a pool of blue fire.

Unfortunately as always i cant remember where i read it, but i'm certain i did read it and i'm not imagining it.



Mystra was pretty much always involved with blue glows around magic. Similarly, Azuth's symbol was "A Human Hand, forefinger
pointing upward, outlined in a nimbus of blue fire". The whole "silver fire" was pretty much Chosen.
Eltheron Posted - 14 Mar 2014 : 21:09:08
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Hmmmm... so whatever they 'lost' would have dated to the war, which is what I always thought. That means that if it is all about the 'first god of magic' (who may or may not have been 'the first sun'), it would have had to have been a precursor of Mystryl.

Dragons did exist, but not not the 'earthly' creatures we see today; they were the more powerful celestial type. True Celestial Dragons are part of the celestial Bureaucracy, and therefor 'gods' (note the smaller-case 'g' - all 'spirits' are considered gods, or Kami, in Asian mythos). The Draconic Creation stories talk about a time before terrestrial dragons existed.

Thus we had many 'lesser spirits/gods' involved in that war... perhaps even the Shadvari. The Creator Races did indeed exist before the first sun was extinguished, and due to both their own power (most of them can change their nature in one way or another) and divine intervention, managed to survive long-enough for Ao to Sunder the world and creaet the new sun.

Note also we have both Lathander and Amaunator in the Realms - two sun gods - and if we throw in all the fan-lore regarding 'the Dusk Lord', we have death sharing the sun portfolio with the two sun deities, which indicates (to me) that some sort of deal was struck. You know, this could even tie-into The Dawn cataclysm - what if Lathander - The Dawn Lord - was the first sun? What if he somehow he managed to 're-invent' himself, by breaking time? Light = Life as well... there is something there I am not quite putting my finger on...


I'm not entirely sure what you're suggesting here. What leads you to think there was a "first" god of magic before Mystryl?

In the primal war between light and darkness, between Shar and Selune before Mystryl was born, a number of godlike entities apparently were created, took sides, and were destroyed before their names or purposes were remembered in history. I suppose one of those beings might have been a deity of magic and also was a Sun or son of some kind. Selune was creating planets and stars, Shar happily went around obliterating them, and newly-rising beings were caught in the crossfire. The cycle only seems to have stopped with Mystryl's birth.

But I'm not sure how this would relate to Selune's Tears.

By -3500DR, when Selune's Tears just pop into the sky, Mystryl was the only ever recorded god of magic. The dwarves and elves, even the drow all had long-standing communities at that point, so certainly they would have recorded a deity of magic before Mystryl, I'd think. Eaerlann, Illefarn, and Netheril were all allied against the orcs of the north, Delzoun and Ched Nasad had existed for a while, and even Illusk was fairly developed.

In -3595DR there was a war between Eaerlann, Mieyritar, and Illefarn which caused Netheril to restrict trade with all of them (they didn't want to risk offending any of them), but that was 100 years before Selune's Tears were in the sky. The Nether scrolls were discovered in -3533DR, which is the beginning of the "Nether Age" and ending the First Age.

Given the absence of anything else noted circa -3500DR, it's possible that the arrival of Selune's Tears were related to some elvish/drow/dwarf event. Or tied to something else not recorded.

Markustay Posted - 14 Mar 2014 : 20:07:23
Hmmmm... so whatever they 'lost' would have dated to the war, which is what I always thought. That means that if it is all about the 'first god of magic' (who may or may not have been 'the first sun'), it would have had to have been a precursor of Mystryl.

Dragons did exist, but not not the 'earthly' creatures we see today; they were the more powerful celestial type. True Celestial Dragons are part of the celestial Bureaucracy, and therefor 'gods' (note the smaller-case 'g' - all 'spirits' are considered gods, or Kami, in Asian mythos). The Draconic Creation stories talk about a time before terrestrial dragons existed.

Thus we had many 'lesser spirits/gods' involved in that war... perhaps even the Shadvari. The Creator Races did indeed exist before the first sun was extinguished, and due to both their own power (most of them can change their nature in one way or another) and divine intervention, managed to survive long-enough for Ao to Sunder the world and create the new sun.

Note also we have both Lathander and Amaunator in the Realms - two sun gods - and if we throw in all the fan-lore regarding 'the Dusk Lord', we have death sharing the sun portfolio with the two sun deities, which indicates (to me) that some sort of deal was struck. You know, this could even tie-into The Dawn cataclysm - what if Lathander - The Dawn Lord - was the first sun? What if he somehow he managed to 're-invent' himself, by breaking time? Light = Life as well... there is something there I am not quite putting my finger on...
Eltheron Posted - 14 Mar 2014 : 17:00:41
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

How long have the tears been around? I know thats been discussed before. Even if the dates don't work for us, there no reason why the mystryl we are aware of was 'the first'.


Selune's tears "popped" into existence at -3500DR, as first seen and recorded by an astronomer, Tu Pi Chei, of Shou Lung. There's also a magnificent castle in the center, I guess on one of the asteroid-Tears. It's described as:

quote:
beautifully constructed with magically lit spires that reach a hundred feet above the ground. The grounds themselves are covered in long green grass and constantly blooming bushes. An overturned magical chalice pours water constantly which flows out of the citadel's doors and eventually out into space. The asteroid is populated by ravens (who are prevented from escaping the air envelope) and brown puddings which prey on the ravens. No sentient being would want to live here once they discover that fact as the puddings are extremely difficult to dislodge when not hungry, making complete eradication of them near-impossible.

No one, apparently to this day, has ever investigated the castle and returned to tell of what they found.

Many of the other asteroids (there are hundreds, some large some small) have atmospheres and spacefaring outposts with trade centers.

Eltheron Posted - 14 Mar 2014 : 16:40:51
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I feel lke something else major happened during the godwar - what we know of in FR lore as The War of Light & Darkness - something we are not yet privy to. Shar becomes the goddess of loss, and Selune is in mourning (her 'tears') over something. What they both have lost may not even be the same thing, or it just might be as simple as the power both lost during their fight (when Mystryl and The Weave were created).

Hmmmmm... Mystryl was their child! Sleyvas may have been onto something there. How long have the tears been around? I know thats been discussed before. Even if the dates don't work for us, there no reason why the mystryl we are aware of was 'the first'.

We also lost the first sun, which may play into all this. Both the FR human legends and the draconic legends reference a first sun that was destroyed.

Could the 'first sun' actually have been "the first son"?
And could he have been the first god of magic? The allegory may be a bit too Narnia-like, though. Lots of ways to spin this...


In the early stories of the battles between Shar and Selune, at least one that I read noted that Shar snuffed out many suns. Many rising gods at the time also were killed. But a good portion of that seems to be pre-Mystryl.

Did the first dragons exist on Toril before Selune created a sun? Other life forms also? With no solar energy? If so, that's very interesting. Or did Toril originally have two suns at the same time?

Also, did Selune lose her ability to create suns (and Shar lose the ability to outright destroy them) when Mystryl was created? Shar was wounded, but IIRC it says Selune was wounded more, and Mystryl (or Shar and Selune's loss of power) seems to have stopped the battle on that planetary/solar level.

What Mystryl received in her creation was a heavy power infusion of both creative and anti-creative energy. Why those didn't annihilate each other on contact is perhaps the biggest mystery of all. Or maybe Selune "stacked the deck" by giving up more energy than what was taken from Shar.

I doubt that Selune would cry over the loss of her own energy, especially since it resulted in an act of creation (Mystryl). So I come back to the theory of Mystryl having a son that was lost. As Sleyvas suggested, Amaunator being the father instead of Targus/Garagos is certainly possible. And Lathander seems like a natural candidate to have been the baby.

But maybe there were two babies, and Lathander had a twin brother. If we go off of the fairly recent theory that Lathander obtained the "dawn" aspect of some kind of tripartite link, perhaps Lathander's twin took the "dusk" aspect from Amaunator. As we know, dusk hasn't been around as a portfolio for a very long time, so perhaps it was lost along with Lathander's twin? Of course, this would go against the idea that Amaunator and Lathander are the same entity.

Shar could have captured the "dusk" twin and tried to force it into ascendance. Something happened, though, and perhaps it was lost between worlds (or realities) somehow through the portal network. The process also forced Lathander into ascendance and killed the original Amaunator. If none of the gods can follow Lathander's twin, then he would indeed be lost to all of them, including Shar.

Anyway, just more rampant speculation on my part.


Gary Dallison Posted - 14 Mar 2014 : 13:42:16
Its weird, but lately i have been spotting references to blue fire all over the place in old 2nd edition sourcebooks and i'm sure one reference to the birth of Selune and Shar mentions a pool of blue fire.

Unfortunately as always i cant remember where i read it, but i'm certain i did read it and i'm not imagining it.
Markustay Posted - 14 Mar 2014 : 13:29:26
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

He is protecting, "that which was lost", and although I have a few theories about that, it could be anything... but it would have to be primal.



Where does this info come from?
In one of the many threads where we were discussing Larloch, many speculations were being made (including that one, by me), and when I - or someone else - asked about that in one of Ed's threads (some time ago), the response from THO was along the lines of, "That is unfortunately NDA... but Ed is grinning ear-to-ear right now".

So, no direct confirmation... but there was something to it. It could be a LOT less 'dramatic' then what Sleyvas purposed above. It could even be meant in a non-physical, metaphorical kind-of-way. For example - he may have 'collected' a lot of the negative energy that was released when the Weave collapsed and Netheril fell... its been taking a LONG time for Shar to collect it all, if thats what she's been doing the past 1500+ years. It could even be a reference to the Road of Stars & Shadows, which would tie directly into FR's main meta-plot (the whole 'FORGOTTEN' part, because knowledge of those 'paths' were lost). It really could be anything, buuuuuut...

I feel lke something else major happened during the godwar - what we know of in FR lore as The War of Light & Darkness - something we are not yet privy to. Shar becomes the goddess of loss, and Selune is in mourning (her 'tears') over something. What they both have lost may not even be the same thing, or it just might be as simple as the power both lost during their fight (when Mystryl and The Weave were created).

Hmmmmm... Mystryl was their child! Sleyvas may have been onto something there. How long have the tears been around? I know thats been discussed before. Even if the dates don't work for us, there no reason why the mystryl we are aware of was 'the first'.

We also lost the first sun, which may play into all this. Both the FR human legends and the draconic legends reference a first sun that was destroyed.

Could the 'first sun' actually have been "the first son"?
And could he have been the first god of magic? The allegory may be a bit too Narnia-like, though. Lots of ways to spin this...
sleyvas Posted - 14 Mar 2014 : 08:49:17
Hmmmm, and continuing my thoughts.... what if Shar's cycle of night requires the world to become "simpler" again.... and by simpler I mean "if certain deities are killed/debilitated, then their predecessors who have gone to sleep are forced to re-awaken to assume the roles". So, in an effort to destroy the world, the god's portfolios must be placed in the hands of fewer beings. This may be why Selune was so willing to allow Sehanine Moonbow and Eilistraee (and say the Mulan gods of the moon.... and Cegilune the fey hag goddess, who possibly turned evil AFTER becoming a moon goddess) to share her powers, and why they all had to fade during the spellplague. Similarly, Amaunator having to return and Tyr and Lathander dying. Jergal maybe just didn't want to go to sleep whenever he handed off his powers, or maybe he felt he could stop Shar's plans by guiding from the background. Then there was the hand of the deity of anarchy (insanity?) (by whatever name Cyric / Valigan) seeming to "go away" around the times of these major changes ...
sleyvas Posted - 14 Mar 2014 : 08:30:43
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

Markustay, you've inspired me to speculate.

Bear in mind that this is total, rampant, crazysauce, pure speculation.

What if Mystryl had a child, and that child was "that which was lost"? This feels on track, somehow. We know very little about the end of the Netheril period, it's possible that Mystryl had a child. Perhaps a young son, a baby. And he was lost before he grew into his powers or his place among the pantheon. Shar, somehow, took her nephew and threw him into the space between worlds, out of spite or revenge, into a "place" where no gods can go without risking annihilation.

The father could have been Targus. Losing his son might have been the trigger for Targus losing his mind to rage and becoming Garagos. Why does Garagos rage at Jergal? Perhaps he thinks Jergal allowed the baby to die and prevents the child from returning? Why does Garagos rage at Sharess? For her role in bringing him (as Targus) and Mystryl together?

Selune would naturally shed her Tears for the loss of her grandson.

For Mystryl, perhaps the loss of her son put her into a deep remorse. She withdraws, becoming the "Hidden One" in her mourning. Out of sadness, she loses or disconnects from the portfolios of song, time, spring, and perhaps others. During this time, her attention to the Weave drifted and she did not watch Karsus carefully, and she only re-awakens to do her duty when Karsus completes his spell.

And Larloch, not a Chosen but originally perhaps a Mystic Theurge(?) who had a deep devotion to Mystryl, what if he decided to try and find the lost god-child between the worlds? Understanding the portal network, with its myriad paths and connections through "stars and shadow" would be a natural first step. He became a lich in order to complete his research and his work, and perhaps even to protect him from the "lost place" between the worlds. By mastering the portal network, he is protecting the pathway that might lead to Mystryl's lost son.

Too overly dramatic? Does it fit well at all with canon?





You might be on to something here as far as a story. I wouldn't mix Targus and Mystryl though. What if the child though were a child of the sun? This might be how Lathander and Amaunator have also been caught up in the whole "cycle of night". Perhaps Lathander is the love child and Amaunator is the original, and whenever Lathander gets shunted away, Amaunator is forced to reawaken. Perhaps somehow Entropy/Pandorym/Talos is also thrown into this mix as well.... perhaps as a conduit to the "other place".

So, in this admittedly rough theory, the Imaskari bring Pandorym into the world and split Pandorym into mind and body (Entropy) as a defense should the deities of the Mulan people follow them. They also cast the Godwall on the crystal sphere. Maybe what they didn't know is that Pandorym/Entropy/Talos was the being that Shar had set to watching the godchild of Mystryl and the sun. So, when this being is reactivated during the spellplague, it recaptures Lathander, and Amaunator is forced to reawaken.

So, when Karsus casts his spell, it actually frees Mystryl from her duties as goddess of magic (if only temporarily), and in those moments, she reaches across the boundaries of "whatever" and grabs her son Lathander and brings him back to the world.... allowing Amaunator to fade into the background again.

To add in further complexity, what if Hilather/Halaster were involved with the splitting of Pandorym into mind and body,

Just as a thought as well, what if a second being was born of the intermixing of Selune's and Shar's stuff besides Mystryl? What if shadow is born of the mixing of "the light in darkness" and "darkness"? Hmmm, not seeing the linkage here, but something just screams the Imaskari Madryoch and the shadow stone having some kind of involvement with what happened in the spellplague. I can't quite remember the book... how did he get released into the world again?

Then there was a deity of anarchy who opposed the god of justice it seems.... Valigan THIRDBORN.... I wonder if "Tyr" faded away around the time Amaunator was forced to awaken... and could this Valigan be another child of Selune's (or Mystryl's).

Wooly Rupert Posted - 14 Mar 2014 : 03:09:44
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

He is protecting, "that which was lost", and although I have a few theories about that, it could be anything... but it would have to be primal.



Where does this info come from?
Eltheron Posted - 14 Mar 2014 : 02:38:08
Markustay, you've inspired me to speculate.

Bear in mind that this is total, rampant, crazysauce, pure speculation.

What if Mystryl had a child, and that child was "that which was lost"? This feels on track, somehow. We know very little about the end of the Netheril period, it's possible that Mystryl had a child. Perhaps a young son, a baby. And he was lost before he grew into his powers or his place among the pantheon. Shar, somehow, took her nephew and threw him into the space between worlds, out of spite or revenge, into a "place" where no gods can go without risking annihilation.

The father could have been Targus. Losing his son might have been the trigger for Targus losing his mind to rage and becoming Garagos. Why does Garagos rage at Jergal? Perhaps he thinks Jergal allowed the baby to die and prevents the child from returning? Why does Garagos rage at Sharess? For her role in bringing him (as Targus) and Mystryl together?

Selune would naturally shed her Tears for the loss of her grandson.

For Mystryl, perhaps the loss of her son put her into a deep remorse. She withdraws, becoming the "Hidden One" in her mourning. Out of sadness, she loses or disconnects from the portfolios of song, time, spring, and perhaps others. During this time, her attention to the Weave drifted and she did not watch Karsus carefully, and she only re-awakens to do her duty when Karsus completes his spell.

And Larloch, not a Chosen but originally perhaps a Mystic Theurge(?) who had a deep devotion to Mystryl, what if he decided to try and find the lost god-child between the worlds? Understanding the portal network, with its myriad paths and connections through "stars and shadow" would be a natural first step. He became a lich in order to complete his research and his work, and perhaps even to protect him from the "lost place" between the worlds. By mastering the portal network, he is protecting the pathway that might lead to Mystryl's lost son.

Too overly dramatic? Does it fit well at all with canon?


Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2024 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000