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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 03:55:19
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In regards to Selvetarm...Why does it matter if he's controlled by Lolth? Gods can have very few worshipers and still be a god. Gods serve other gods. I don't understand what any of that has to be with being a divine being. Would he have been a God, and then not been one anymore, in your view? We know he has many of his own worshipers - I would think probably more than some other minor demigods like Siamorphe, Jergal, M'Daas, Urogolan or Eshowdow.
Gwaeron is a separate deity from Mielikki but I think I remember reading that he is hardly worshiped except within her Church.
Selvetarm seems like the ideal candidate for a neutral drow deity. Like if he broke free of Lolth's influence and Zanassu's evil taint...in the possibly scenario I already mentioned. |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 20:09:24
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| I would actually like to see Selvetarm neutral. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 20:11:39
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He's a god because he was born one. Simple enough. His mother was Zandilar(later Sharess/Bast) and his father is Vaerhaun. Ergo, he's a god, whether he has many followers or not.
On Kiaransalee, her goals are primarily to take domination of the drow from Lolth, and, um, that's about it. Vengeence is her only real concern, apart from ruling an army of undead. (Really? Can't she set her sights any higher than THAT?!) She's insane, cruel beyond what is needed, and has no qualms about sacrificing an entire civilization to get what she wants. Sounds like the poster-girl for evil to me. she doesn't care about alignment- but then again, she really doesn't care much about ANYTHING. And that is sort of the point of being evil. Do what you want, regardless of whom it hurts! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
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http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 20:17:31
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| I like that about Kiaransalee. It fits her to me lol. I do wish Selvetarm were neutral though. He seems like the perfect example to become one, if he broke free from Lolth. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2011 : 17:49:46
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
In regards to Selvetarm...Why does it matter if he's controlled by Lolth? Gods can have very few worshipers and still be a god. Gods serve other gods. I don't understand what any of that has to be with being a divine being. Would he have been a God, and then not been one anymore, in your view? We know he has many of his own worshipers - I would think probably more than some other minor demigods like Siamorphe, Jergal, M'Daas, Urogolan or Eshowdow.
-His sole purpose is to be champion of Lolth. It is unnecessary for him to be a deity, in that role, as opposed to being a powerful divine servant. The designers should have gone that route with Selvetarm- especially since he does not particularly even get free reign when it comes to his own followers, given that the Church of Lolth dictates to them what is permissible and what is not. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2011 : 12:23:41
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| Jusr remember, just because Kiaransalee's power has been wiped from the realms space doesn't mean she is actually dead everywhere in the planes.....Gods are after all are mutable sources of life and death.....and she could easily be a goddess for more than just Drow on other worlds.... |
Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2011 : 18:08:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Snowblood
Jusr remember, just because Kiaransalee's power has been wiped from the realms space doesn't mean she is actually dead everywhere in the planes.....Gods are after all are mutable sources of life and death.....and she could easily be a goddess for more than just Drow on other worlds....
-Correct. And, even if all of her followers do not remember her in Realmspace, it still doesn't make her dead, per se. Just like how Ulitu (Sp?) and Auppenser survived with little or no worship at times, a deity is sustained, and draws power from, the portfolios they hold, in addition to the worship of mortals. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2011 : 23:41:15
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Selvetarm's sole purpose is not to be the champion of Lolth. Did you read what Alystra Illianniis said?
Also I think he was first mentioned in undermountain where he was described as a "minor spider deity" that
might have just been an aspect of Lolth. These clergy didn't seem to be servants of Lolth, or beholden to her.
In the first book of the lady penitent trilogy it seemed clear he had worshipers who held him above Lolth.
Regardless, should Milil, Deneir, and Gond not exist because they serve Oghma? What does having a leader
have to do with being a God or not? Gods often seem to have leaders... him being a servant of Lolth
and therefore not a god is not logical at all. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2475 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2014 : 20:45:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
Is it just me, or does anyone think that she should have been a more Chaotic Neutral deity? I feel that since all the rest of the Dark Seldarine (save Eilistraee) are evil there should at least be a neutral one. Undeath and revenge aren't really evil (unless you're close minded), so she could have easil fit the bill.
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I would prefer Selvetarm be Chaotic Neutral than Kiaransalee. She is a lich who destroyed a civilization, isn't she? If alignments had scales i'd see her as the MOST evil of the drow deities to me over Lolth, and Ghaunadaur, even!
Yup, she just was like this as a mortal, and simply didn't go anywhere after carving it out of her predecessor's hide. But yes. Of course, moving from Abyss toward Limbo one hits Pandemonium. That's fine - vengeance is an obsession, after all. 
quote:
I'd also have Vhaeraun not be Chaotic. I'd have him be Neutral Evil or Lawful evil for the sake of balance and just so he's a more rational sort of evil.
Remember, his portfolio is not only about thievery, but also rebellion. Chaotic part fits there. And even thievery as such is not only about simple misappropriation of valuables, either. There's daring, "hahaha, fooled you-u-u!", rebellion again, "I will take what I want because I can", etc. - quite Chaotic inclinations. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2014 : 20:10:18
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Wow I don't remember this conversation at all!
I would just like if Vhaeraun were made/had been made Neutral Evil so that the Drow deities had more varied alignments. In my own imagination some demihuman deities have their alignments shifted so there is more variety in alignment in keeping with their diverse followers.
Also if you rebel against a Chaotic mother couldn't that rebellion take the form of being LESS chaotic? Like not pitting your worshipers against each other, commanding they work together, gender equality, etc. If your mother forces her worshipers to kill each other, be chaotic, and the like wouldn't NOT doing those things be rebellion against her and the order established by her theocracies? Small groups of secret Vhaeraun worshipers might have to be more organized and secretive in order to survive, as well. It could be taboo for one to expose another or betray another despite being evil because of the nature of their worship.
In my own imagining of the realms (that I created because I didn't like 4e) Vhaeraun-Eilistraee became a deity after being ressurected after being killed by Halisstra. Now an Intermediate Neutral dual-gendered deity who subsumed the worshipers of Mask as well. A more fitting rival for Lolth from her twin children becoming one divine entity. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2014 : 20:36:13
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Wow I don't remember this conversation at all!
I would just like if Vhaeraun were made/had been made Neutral Evil so that the Drow deities had more varied alignments. In my own imagination some demihuman deities have their alignments shifted so there is more variety in alignment in keeping with their diverse followers.
Also if you rebel against a Chaotic mother couldn't that rebellion take the form of being LESS chaotic? Like not pitting your worshipers against each other, commanding they work together, gender equality, etc. If your mother forces her worshipers to kill each other, be chaotic, and the like wouldn't NOT doing those things be rebellion against her and the order established by her theocracies? Small groups of secret Vhaeraun worshipers might have to be more organized and secretive in order to survive, as well. It could be taboo for one to expose another or betray another despite being evil because of the nature of their worship.
I think this is already the case, his behavior is more headed towards NE than CE and at the end of the day alignemnt is just an arbitrary rule, IMO
Vhaerun already despises how Lolth forces drow into wasting their life in pointless infighting between themselves, he wants them to be united so that their strenght can be directed towards conquering dark elves' rightful place on Toril. Heck, he even approves 'collaboration' with other elven races in order to achieve that. I think he has goals that are close to Eilistraee's, as they both want to achieve freedom for their people, albeit in drastically different ways.
Furthermore -IIRC- in Faith and Pantheons (3e)it is said that he does approve and encourage betrayal and trickery, but will never forgive such acts when done to hurt the ones under his protection. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 10 Apr 2014 20:46:16 |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2014 : 23:18:20
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| I know it's off subject,but has anyone else notice that Shar ,goddess of darkness and lolth both are goddess of darkness and both have thief gods for sons? Plus now not only is mask back but vhearawn may be returning. Hmmm...... |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2475 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2014 : 23:50:36
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And both got their hands chomped off?  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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The Vengeful Banshee
