| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Aryalómë |
Posted - 21 Jun 2011 : 00:02:10
Poor Kiaransalee. She is probaly one of the most interesting deities in FR yet she has been nearly ignored. When the 4e world came out, the Queen of the Undead ot the axe. So, fellow scribes, I am asking you for as much nformation about Kiaransale as possible prior to her death. Please put any information about her here. Even though I may have read most of the little tidbits about her, there are more than likely many few small things in obscure places. In novels, please put down anything yu can glean frm them, be it a whole few pages about her and her cult or just te briefes kention of her name or even something or someone alludng to her or implying her. Please help fill my need of information! |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 11 Apr 2014 : 23:50:36
And both got their hands chomped off?  |
| jerrod |
Posted - 11 Apr 2014 : 23:18:20
I know it's off subject,but has anyone else notice that Shar ,goddess of darkness and lolth both are goddess of darkness and both have thief gods for sons? Plus now not only is mask back but vhearawn may be returning. Hmmm...... |
| Irennan |
Posted - 10 Apr 2014 : 20:36:13
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Wow I don't remember this conversation at all!
I would just like if Vhaeraun were made/had been made Neutral Evil so that the Drow deities had more varied alignments. In my own imagination some demihuman deities have their alignments shifted so there is more variety in alignment in keeping with their diverse followers.
Also if you rebel against a Chaotic mother couldn't that rebellion take the form of being LESS chaotic? Like not pitting your worshipers against each other, commanding they work together, gender equality, etc. If your mother forces her worshipers to kill each other, be chaotic, and the like wouldn't NOT doing those things be rebellion against her and the order established by her theocracies? Small groups of secret Vhaeraun worshipers might have to be more organized and secretive in order to survive, as well. It could be taboo for one to expose another or betray another despite being evil because of the nature of their worship.
I think this is already the case, his behavior is more headed towards NE than CE and at the end of the day alignemnt is just an arbitrary rule, IMO
Vhaerun already despises how Lolth forces drow into wasting their life in pointless infighting between themselves, he wants them to be united so that their strenght can be directed towards conquering dark elves' rightful place on Toril. Heck, he even approves 'collaboration' with other elven races in order to achieve that. I think he has goals that are close to Eilistraee's, as they both want to achieve freedom for their people, albeit in drastically different ways.
Furthermore -IIRC- in Faith and Pantheons (3e)it is said that he does approve and encourage betrayal and trickery, but will never forgive such acts when done to hurt the ones under his protection. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 10 Apr 2014 : 20:10:18
Wow I don't remember this conversation at all!
I would just like if Vhaeraun were made/had been made Neutral Evil so that the Drow deities had more varied alignments. In my own imagination some demihuman deities have their alignments shifted so there is more variety in alignment in keeping with their diverse followers.
Also if you rebel against a Chaotic mother couldn't that rebellion take the form of being LESS chaotic? Like not pitting your worshipers against each other, commanding they work together, gender equality, etc. If your mother forces her worshipers to kill each other, be chaotic, and the like wouldn't NOT doing those things be rebellion against her and the order established by her theocracies? Small groups of secret Vhaeraun worshipers might have to be more organized and secretive in order to survive, as well. It could be taboo for one to expose another or betray another despite being evil because of the nature of their worship.
In my own imagining of the realms (that I created because I didn't like 4e) Vhaeraun-Eilistraee became a deity after being ressurected after being killed by Halisstra. Now an Intermediate Neutral dual-gendered deity who subsumed the worshipers of Mask as well. A more fitting rival for Lolth from her twin children becoming one divine entity. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 09 Apr 2014 : 20:45:59
quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
Is it just me, or does anyone think that she should have been a more Chaotic Neutral deity? I feel that since all the rest of the Dark Seldarine (save Eilistraee) are evil there should at least be a neutral one. Undeath and revenge aren't really evil (unless you're close minded), so she could have easil fit the bill.
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I would prefer Selvetarm be Chaotic Neutral than Kiaransalee. She is a lich who destroyed a civilization, isn't she? If alignments had scales i'd see her as the MOST evil of the drow deities to me over Lolth, and Ghaunadaur, even!
Yup, she just was like this as a mortal, and simply didn't go anywhere after carving it out of her predecessor's hide. But yes. Of course, moving from Abyss toward Limbo one hits Pandemonium. That's fine - vengeance is an obsession, after all. 
quote:
I'd also have Vhaeraun not be Chaotic. I'd have him be Neutral Evil or Lawful evil for the sake of balance and just so he's a more rational sort of evil.
Remember, his portfolio is not only about thievery, but also rebellion. Chaotic part fits there. And even thievery as such is not only about simple misappropriation of valuables, either. There's daring, "hahaha, fooled you-u-u!", rebellion again, "I will take what I want because I can", etc. - quite Chaotic inclinations. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 16 Jul 2011 : 23:41:15
Selvetarm's sole purpose is not to be the champion of Lolth. Did you read what Alystra Illianniis said?
Also I think he was first mentioned in undermountain where he was described as a "minor spider deity" that
might have just been an aspect of Lolth. These clergy didn't seem to be servants of Lolth, or beholden to her.
In the first book of the lady penitent trilogy it seemed clear he had worshipers who held him above Lolth.
Regardless, should Milil, Deneir, and Gond not exist because they serve Oghma? What does having a leader
have to do with being a God or not? Gods often seem to have leaders... him being a servant of Lolth
and therefore not a god is not logical at all. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 13 Jul 2011 : 18:08:52
quote:
Originally posted by Snowblood
Jusr remember, just because Kiaransalee's power has been wiped from the realms space doesn't mean she is actually dead everywhere in the planes.....Gods are after all are mutable sources of life and death.....and she could easily be a goddess for more than just Drow on other worlds....
-Correct. And, even if all of her followers do not remember her in Realmspace, it still doesn't make her dead, per se. Just like how Ulitu (Sp?) and Auppenser survived with little or no worship at times, a deity is sustained, and draws power from, the portfolios they hold, in addition to the worship of mortals. |
| Snowblood |
Posted - 13 Jul 2011 : 12:23:41
Jusr remember, just because Kiaransalee's power has been wiped from the realms space doesn't mean she is actually dead everywhere in the planes.....Gods are after all are mutable sources of life and death.....and she could easily be a goddess for more than just Drow on other worlds.... |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 12 Jul 2011 : 17:49:46
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
In regards to Selvetarm...Why does it matter if he's controlled by Lolth? Gods can have very few worshipers and still be a god. Gods serve other gods. I don't understand what any of that has to be with being a divine being. Would he have been a God, and then not been one anymore, in your view? We know he has many of his own worshipers - I would think probably more than some other minor demigods like Siamorphe, Jergal, M'Daas, Urogolan or Eshowdow.
-His sole purpose is to be champion of Lolth. It is unnecessary for him to be a deity, in that role, as opposed to being a powerful divine servant. The designers should have gone that route with Selvetarm- especially since he does not particularly even get free reign when it comes to his own followers, given that the Church of Lolth dictates to them what is permissible and what is not. |
| Aryalómë |
Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 20:17:31
I like that about Kiaransalee. It fits her to me lol. I do wish Selvetarm were neutral though. He seems like the perfect example to become one, if he broke free from Lolth. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 20:11:39
He's a god because he was born one. Simple enough. His mother was Zandilar(later Sharess/Bast) and his father is Vaerhaun. Ergo, he's a god, whether he has many followers or not.
On Kiaransalee, her goals are primarily to take domination of the drow from Lolth, and, um, that's about it. Vengeence is her only real concern, apart from ruling an army of undead. (Really? Can't she set her sights any higher than THAT?!) She's insane, cruel beyond what is needed, and has no qualms about sacrificing an entire civilization to get what she wants. Sounds like the poster-girl for evil to me. she doesn't care about alignment- but then again, she really doesn't care much about ANYTHING. And that is sort of the point of being evil. Do what you want, regardless of whom it hurts! |
| Aryalómë |
Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 20:09:24
I would actually like to see Selvetarm neutral. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 03:55:19
In regards to Selvetarm...Why does it matter if he's controlled by Lolth? Gods can have very few worshipers and still be a god. Gods serve other gods. I don't understand what any of that has to be with being a divine being. Would he have been a God, and then not been one anymore, in your view? We know he has many of his own worshipers - I would think probably more than some other minor demigods like Siamorphe, Jergal, M'Daas, Urogolan or Eshowdow.
Gwaeron is a separate deity from Mielikki but I think I remember reading that he is hardly worshiped except within her Church.
Selvetarm seems like the ideal candidate for a neutral drow deity. Like if he broke free of Lolth's influence and Zanassu's evil taint...in the possibly scenario I already mentioned. |
| Aryalómë |
Posted - 10 Jul 2011 : 21:45:26
To me, it wouldn't seem like Kiaransalee would care much about alignment, as long as it furthered her goals. I always wanted a neutral drow deity, and I very much dislike Eilistraee's goodness and light. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 05 Jul 2011 : 18:24:11
-Vhaeraun is definitley evil, no doubt about that. Whether or not he'd be Chaotic, or Neutral, I personally think he'd be Neutral (with Chaotic tendencies). He's a lot less 'fleeting' and a lot more 'calculating' over the long term than I always envision the Chaotic alignment to be.
-As for Selvetarm, I'd remove his divinity completely! Given how dominated he is by Lolth, and how little free will he has/had, and how dominated his mainstream church was dominated by the Church of Lolth, and how little free will they have/had, him being an actual deity never sat well with me. Selvetarm would fit better as a powerful, unique divine servitor, like Corellon Larethian has with Felarathael and Lashrael. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 04 Jul 2011 : 08:49:42
I agree that Vhaeraun being neutral would not make sense, unless some big event happened to cause it. Him being Lawful Evil would be changing his character If you go with him having merged with Eilistraee than that entity could be neutral, but not Vhaeraun before that event! Much has been written about him already and he's obviously evil! I have read the novel where Lolth being cast out is described but I can't remember it well enough. But in War of the Spider Queen, how he interacts with Shakti Hunzrin, and the Lady Penitent series there is no way his behavior could be seen as "Neutral". How he is portrayed seems Neutral Evil to me, though,
Selvetarm BECOMING Chaotic Neutral would make more sense,but then that would be an event (like the one I described) making the change.
I agree with the poster who thought he was made chaotic because the game developers chose to make all elven deities chaotic. I don't think Labelas Enoreth sounds chaotic either and if I were a game developer i'd change his alignment to lawful neutral or lawful good, and that is how I view him myself (Although I don't think about him very much) |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 04 Jul 2011 : 07:21:56
No, not neutral, but lawful evil? Um, how about- no. It just does not fit him. Neutral evil, maybe, but NOT lawful. As for CN, that one would be really iffy for him. He's still got the dogma of drow supremacy and conquering the surface among his goals, after all. |
| MisterX |
Posted - 04 Jul 2011 : 07:17:15
To have Vhearaun to be neutral… why not?
I think they designed him as "chaotic", because ALL elven gods are… |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 04 Jul 2011 : 07:04:54
I could see him as NE, but LE?! Not bloody likely- he's a god of thieves, after all. That's sort of the antithesis of Law. That idea for Selvetarm is cool, though. I like that. And I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say Kisransalee is more evil than Lolth- just a very different kind of evil. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 04 Jul 2011 : 03:51:05
In Planescape "Dead Gods" deals with her worship in Erelhei-Cinleu in Greyhawk, in Planes of Chaos or one of those books they describe her divine realm, and On Hallowed Ground talks a little about her.
I would prefer Selvetarm be Chaotic Neutral than Kiaransalee. She is a lich who destroyed a civilization, isn't she? If alignments had scales i'd see her as the MOST evil of the drow deities to me over Lolth, and Ghaunadaur, even!
I've had thoughts of writing a story about Sharess removing Zanassu's taint from her son somehow (since she is Zandilar, too) Maybe resurrecting him and splitting him with the Tear of Selune as Tyche was split into Beshaba and Tymora...then battling and killing evil Selvetarm. In which case new Selvetarm would be Chaotic Neutral.
I'd also have Vhaeraun not be Chaotic. I'd have him be Neutral Evil or Lawful evil for the sake of balance and just so he's a more rational sort of evil. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 03 Jul 2011 : 13:33:33
Not just vengeance, but disproportionate vengeance. Eye for an eye is on thing, but Kiaransalee would gleefully slay your entire clan and anyone you ever cared about for any slight, real or imagined. Neutral? Definitely not. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 03 Jul 2011 : 06:35:58
quote:
Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil
Lord Versus, where did you read that she sacrificed everyone she knew to gain power?
-Read Kiaransalee's history/biography. This can be found in Demihuman Deities, but the better supplement would be Elves of Faerûn, in the 'Deities' section, given that information that was revealed about Kiaransalee since the publishing of Demihuman Deities was included within. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Jul 2011 : 21:50:05
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Plus, she's an Undead witch queen who sacrificed everyone she knew to fuel her rise to power.
And then some, if she killed her whole world.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Not very conducive to being good.
No, but it makes Christmas shopping so much easier!  |
| Aryalómë |
Posted - 01 Jul 2011 : 21:17:19
Well, yes I know vengeance is dark and considered evil by most. And I don't imagine good characters worshipping her eithwr, it's just that I myself don't see vengeance and the other things she holds dominion over one sided and particularly evil. I don't really view her as a "destroy everything" deity either. Lord Versus, where did you read that she sacrificed everyone she knew to gain power? |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 01 Jul 2011 : 17:49:43
-Plus, she's an Undead witch queen who sacrificed everyone she knew to fuel her rise to power. Not very conducive to being good. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 01 Jul 2011 : 06:39:51
She is too vengeful to have good clerics. The whole point is that vengeance is considered a "dark" impulse, as opposed to "justice", which is impartial and impersonal. Vengeance is VERY personal. It's also difficult to control how one uses it. It can easily turn into an obsession- hence it's considered "evil" by D&D standards. (Remember Inigo Montoya? He had "an over-developed sense of vengeance". And it almost got him killed.) Her being insane and horribly cruel doesn't help, either. |
| MisterX |
Posted - 30 Jun 2011 : 13:57:57
Since she's cruel and insane, giving her an evil alignment makes perfectly sense. Being a neutral deity would (by the rules, at least) make her to accept good-aligned clerics. Can't imagine that. |
| Aryalómë |
Posted - 30 Jun 2011 : 13:23:36
After reading City of the Spider Queen, I found that there were males in her clergy. They were mostly black guards, but that made me happy. I'm glad they are not sexist like Lolth. I also feel that Kiaransalee should have, or can be, a chaotic neutral deity with CE tendencies, like a Chaotic Wee Has. Plus, it would have balanced out the Dark Searing better. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 24 Jun 2011 : 18:18:32
quote:
Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil
Does anyone else think that her clergy being made up of only females was ridiculous and un needed as well?
-Eh. She's portrayed as a banshee often enough, and banshees can only be women, so there's the whole women theme, so...Eh. I can't say it necessarily bothers me.
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
I would be cooler if her faith spread in the Bloodstone Lands during the Orcus silence. So today we wouldn't have to hear about the raven bitch.
-Realistically, I guess it would have/should have, in Orcus' absence, since his followers are likely the types of people to not necessarily care about who is granting them power, as long as they're getting power, and probably aren't the most loyal people, so...One of plenty of situations where more about the event/person/place could have had more written about it. |
| Kno |
Posted - 24 Jun 2011 : 09:40:11
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
She would be interesting if she weren't just a drow goddess
-I would imagine she could have had a wider following in the Underdark, kind of like Ghaunadaur, if she was more...'accepting'.
I would be cooler if her faith spread in the Bloodstone Lands during the Orcus silence. So today we wouldn't have to hear about the raven bitch. |
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