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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 02:43:15
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| I'm not just talking about mages. By 2nd ed standards, a 4th level fighter/6th mage could do a decent amount of damage in his one or possibly two attacks. In 3rd ed, that same fighter/mage, at the same levels, could use several feats to boost his power in those same two (or even three) attacks. He could also make skill checks to further improve his odds in that one round. Far better than what he could have done in 2nd with the same class levels. I think the feat system made a HUGE difference. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 03:14:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I'm not just talking about mages. By 2nd ed standards, a 4th level fighter/6th mage could do a decent amount of damage in his one or possibly two attacks. In 3rd ed, that same fighter/mage, at the same levels, could use several feats to boost his power in those same two (or even three) attacks. He could also make skill checks to further improve his odds in that one round. Far better than what he could have done in 2nd with the same class levels. I think the feat system made a HUGE difference.
We really can't argue different games being equal or not...I suppose that is something we have to leave out.
I can see that the combination of To Hit Modifiers stacking with classes is good, feats are good, skills are good...I'm not debating that.
I'm debating the diminishing of mortal power vs. the increase in divine power... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 04:19:56
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| Well, to be fair, both PC "mortals" and gods alike were increased in 3rd ed, so I'd say it is pretty much the same. I've already said that I thought gods were- if anything- underpowered in 2nd ed. I can't say for 1st, since I never played it, but I've heard the gods were much harder then than they were in 2nd. Seems they were nerfed a bit for the later edition, and then 3rd turned around and re-boosted them. So I'd say overall, that mortal/divine ratio of power has remained constant, at least up to 4th. More or less. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 06:18:10
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1E used gods very sparingly. Hardly any gods appear in 1E modules, beyond that infamous little quibble with Orcus.
In 2E the gods seemed to be all over the place, almost every published 2E module seemed to have gods assist/oppose the PCs from behind the scenes or even interact with them directly. Classic railroading.
In 1E, gods of certain pantheons were far more powerful than those of others; for example, most of the 1E Babylonian, Sumerian, and Egyptian gods were far more potent than their counterparts from (or even the leaders of) the other pantheons. I suppose Gygax was more impressed by some pantheons while researching mythology.
2E rules were essentially identical to 1E, so many gods were simply ported over "as is" ... but many others were revised (for play balance, I suppose). The end result was bunch of gods with wildly inconsistent relative power levels, even more unbalanced than 1E. That's part of the reason I found the Faerûnian gods attractive; at least they were reasonably consistent in powers and capabilities when taken as a group. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 14 Mar 2011 06:19:18 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 06:37:47
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Dalor, the following will use the 3.0/3.5 ruleset, since it's the one I'm most familiar with (and is easy to get mechanics for). It's also based on melding and comparing the rules for doing different things between mortals and deities in D&D. All quotations to that end (except where noted) are drawn from the d20SRD (http://www.d20srd.org), published online in accordance with the Open Game License.
I'm largely doing it to compare and contrast the power differences ascribed to mortals and deities within the game mechanics, to illustrate how tremendously powerful a deity can be.
(Also, remember that I like deities to be way ahead of mortals, because as I said, I envision them as literally a part of reality itself. Trying to kill one should, to me, be like trying to kill part of reality.)
quote:
Domains: Wizards can create MASSIVE pocket dimensions where they can control all the things you describe above...did I mention Massive?
A wizard can, though the use of the Genesis spell, create a demiplane for which he controls the following:
"The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. This spell cannot create life (including vegetation), nor can it create construction (such as buildings, roads, wells, dungeons, and so forth). The spellcaster must add these things in some other fashion if he or she desires."
The limit of the demiplane is also 180 feet (which can be expanded through subsequent castings), and each casting of Genesis costs 5,000 XP. Ouch.
By contrast, a deity can control the following without a spell and at will:
"Within this area, the deity can set any temperature that is normal for the plane where the realm is located (for the Material Plane, any temperature from -20ºF to 120ºF), and fill the area with scents and sounds as the deity sees fit. Sounds can be no louder than one hundred humans could make, but not intelligible speech or harmful sound. The deity’s ability to create scents is similar. Deities of rank 6 or higher can create the sounds of intelligible speech. A demigod or lesser deity can erect buildings and alter the landscape, but must do so through its own labor, through magic, or through its divine powers. A deity of rank 6 or higher not only has control over the environment, but also controls links to the Astral Plane. Manipulating a realm’s astral links renders teleportation and similar effects useless within the realm. The deity can designate certain locales within the realm where astral links remain intact. Likewise, the deity can block off the realm from planar portals or designate locations where portals are possible. A deity of rank 11 or higher can also apply the enhanced magic or impeded magic trait to up to four groups of spells (schools, domains, or spells with the same descriptor). The enhanced magic trait enables a metamagic feat to be applied to a group of spells without requiring higher-level spell slots. Many deities apply the enhanced magic trait to their domain spells, making them maximized (as the Maximize Spell feat) within the boundaries of their realm. The impeded magic trait doesn’t affect the deity’s spells and spell-like abilities.
In addition, a deity of rank 11 or higher can erect buildings as desired and alter terrain within ten miles to become any terrain type found on the Material Plane. These buildings and alterations are manifestations of the deity’s control over the realm.
A greater deity (rank 16 or higher) also can perform any one of the following acts:
* Change or apply a gravity trait within the realm.
* Change or apply an elemental or energy trait within the realm.
* Change or apply a time trait within the realm.
* Apply the limited magic trait to a particular school, domain, or spell descriptor within the area, preventing such spells and spell-like abilities from functioning. The greater deity’s own spells and spell-like abilities are not limited by these restrictions."
As you can see, a deity has far more control over their realm than the mightiest wizard (wizards can't control astral links, magical traits and the like), and they can change it as they see fit - once a wizard has set up his demiplane, it's stuck that way (short of epic spells, but those are done by agreement between DM and player anyway, and so are immaterial). Once a deity hits DvR 6, they're ahead of the best a wizard can do, and the gap just keeps on getting wider after that.
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Granting Spells: a Wizard can indeed create a magical item that grants spells to a "worshiper"...its called a Spell Crux, Spell Pool or what have you; and the beneficiary of such would have to carry a token (holy symbol anyone?) to use that power.
They're spell pools, yes. However, there are no mechanics given for the creation of one, which basically renders the point moot. It's something to work out between player and DM. A spellpool also has many differences to a deity's ability to grant spells. Included in those differences are the fact that the wizard isn't the one granting spells from the pool, the pool is providing the magic (as opposed to a deity, who is granting them directly to the person praying to them). Somebody with a spell token must also be attuned to the spellpool, and they don't "pray" for the spells to appear, either.
Another way of looking at it would be to compare a spellpool to a rechargeable battery that can run dry after enough use, while a deity is like plugging a power cord into a wall socket.
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Hearing "their name": easily done via a single well worded wish.
Wish's effects are... difficult... to ascertain, particularly given that they include a clause which happens to be a bona fide excuse for a DM to ruin the player's day if they're asking too much. Deities also don't need a wish. They can just do it at will, and they also have the Alter Reality salient divine ability, which is basically "wish at will" for them.
However, there is a feat that can do what you're looking for. It's found in Dragon Magazine, and is called "Voice of the Mage" or something like that. It allows you to automatically hear any use of your name spoken within one mile of you (I think it takes concentration, or a standard action or something, though). Much, much weaker than the divine equivalent, but not bad. Just very limited.
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Sensing through followers: simple magical items can grant sensory abilities...
Again, though, deities don't need magic items (and can just create them from thin air if they happen to want one). It's an intimate part of their existence. Another issue is that you can't automatically sense what's going on. You have to actively scry and hope you run across something. Deities get to zoom in on their name/portfolio like it's an auto-correct function.
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Avatars: as an example, Dalor Darden used the simple spell Simulacrum to create MANY usable agents with power similar to his own (but at lower levels of course). Also, anyone ever hear of a swordwoman named Alias?
The avatar of a deity is leagues upon leagues more powerful than a simulacrum. A simulacrum has, at best, half of your own levels, HP, spells and so on, and on top of that carries a significant XP cost. If you're 20th level, then to create a 10 HD copy of yourself will carry a 10,000 XP cost as well as 10,000 gp worth of ruby dust. The XP cost alone is double a wish. Even a vastly wealthy 20th level wizard will quickly run out of resources if he tries to create more than a few of them.
By contrast, an avatar is created at will, has no corresponding cost and can be spammed repeatedly (kill one avatar and two more can immediately be spawned and thrown at the offending mortal) by the deity. An avatar is also significantly more powerful by virtue of its divine rank and accompanying salient divine abilities. It also doesn't need to chop off any of its levels like a simulacrum does.
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Immortality: a wizard need not become a Lich or Shade to live forever. There are various Life Drain magics that will give the wizard extended life...
They require draining power from others. Off the top of my head:
Ensel's Soultheft: Evil. Not true immortality.
Steal Life: Evil, drains the essence of another. Not true immortality.
Reincarnate: Reincarnates you in a new young adult body. Don't do this too often, though, or Inevitables from Mechanus will be all over you. Not true immortality.
Ioulaum's Longevity: Epic spell, drains life from others to increase the life of the caster. Not true immortality.
Kissed by the Ages: Sticks a bit of you into a necklace, amulet or something. You become immune to aging effects while you wear it (you don't gain bonuses or take penalties). Like a phylactery for living people.
The Gray Portrait: Major Artifact. As long as you have it, aging effects (as well as energy drain effects) go onto the portrait image, not you. Make sure nobody steals it from you, though, or all the effects the painting has been absorbing will hit you. At the same time.
Lichdom: You mentioned this.
Shade: You mentioned this.
Warforged: From Eberron. They don't age, largely because they're robots powered by magic.
Necropolitan: Be undead. You're not a lich and don't die of old age. You are still undead, though.
Killoren: Don't die of old age. They're also fey.
Elan: No maximum age. Their bodies are consistently renewed and refreshed through their innate psionic ability.
Chosen of Mystra: You're not immortal, but you're going to live a really long time. Although there are obviously issues with being one of these.
Now, some of these are kind of close to immortality, yes, insofar as you won't die of old age. However, some are downright nasty (stealing life energy from others), others are potentially dangerous/temporary measures (the Gray Portrait, Ioulaum's Longevity), and others require a certain race (Elan, Warforged, Killoren and so on). None of them provide even the basics of Divine Rank 0.
So while immortality can be done, it's with more effort on the part of the wizard.
quote:
and it can be argued easily that Gods simply absorb the life essences of their own petitioners to live forever...sorta sick if you ask me!
Immortality is a function of divinity. It's their own divine spark and divine essence that is granting them immortality, not draining life from followers. Followers help empower the deity to greater heights of power, yes, but even a Divine Rank 0 god (who has no worshipers at all) is still immortal (they don't age and don't need to eat, sleep or even breathe).
At the end of this, allow me to point out the two salient divine abilities, accessible by greater deities of DvR 16+, that instantly, irrevocably and completely render any mortal attempts at fighting with or even basic interaction with a deity moot: Divine Splendour and Mass Life and Death.
"Mass Life And Death
Prerequisites
Divine rank 16, Gift of Life or Hand of Death salient divine ability, Life and Death salient divine ability.
Benefit
The deity can designate any number of mortals and snuffs out their lives. Or the deity can designate any number of dead mortals and restore them to life. "
(For reference, the Life and Death SDA is as follows:
"The deity designates any mortal and snuffs out its life. Or the deity can designate any dead mortal and restore it to life.
Notes
This ability works across planar boundaries and penetrates any barrier except a divine shield. However, the subject must be in a location the deity can sense, either within the deity’s sense range or in a location the deity can perceive through its remote sensing ability. If the deity cannot see the subject, the deity must unambiguously identify the subject in some fashion. If the deity chooses to kill a mortal, the ability works like the destruction spell, except that there is no material component or saving throw. The mortal cannot be raised or resurrected afterward, except by a deity of equal or higher rank using the Gift of Life or Life and Death salient divine ability.
If the deity restores life to a mortal, this ability works like the true resurrection spell, except that there is no material component and the amount of time the subject has been dead is irrelevant. "
As you can see, there is no saving throw for this one either, and that's available to any deity of DvR 6+. Yes, a lesser deity can insta-kill/OHKO the mightiest epic wizard.)
"Divine Splendor
Prerequisites
Divine rank 16, Cha 26.
Benefit
Any mortal who approaches within 10 feet per divine rank of the deity in its natural form dies immediately, with no saving throw."
Bam. You're dead. Doesn't matter who you are, doesn't matter how epic a wizard you are. Doesn't matter what items you have. If you don't have divine rank (i.e. at least DvR 0-1), then you're dead as soon as you're within 160 feet of the deity. No save, no contingency, nothing. Just dead.
Salient Divine Abilities are one of the big things that catapult deities above and beyond mortals. Other benefits include the "don't fail on a roll of a 1" (DvR 1+) and "treat any roll as a natural 20" (DvR 16+). To say nothing of the boatloads of immunities.
As an aside:
quote:
I used the model of Greek mythological cosmology to create mine. There is a Mother and Father of the gods (Like Cronus and Rhea) and all the other gods are their children. But they are not "over" the rest in more than age and reverence. Earth Mother and Sky Father, with all the other gods born from and sworn to them.
One of Zeus' titles is "Sky Father" in the Greek myths. There's also a quotation from the Iliad where it is basically stated outright that he is leaps and bounds more powerful than the rest of the Olympian deities:
"Hear me, all you gods and goddesses, while I speak what the heart in my breast tells me. Let not any goddess nor any god try this, to thwart my word, but all alike assent to it, so that I may quickly bring these deeds to pass. Whomever I notice minded, apart from the gods, to go and assist either Trojans or Danaans, struck by lightning and in a bad way will he come back to Olympus; or I shall take and hurl him into murky Tartarus, far, far away, where is the deepest gulf beneath the earth, where the gates are of iron and the threshold of bronze, as far beneath Hades as heaven is above earth: then you will recognise how far the mightiest am I of all gods. But come on, just try it, you gods, so that you all may know. Make fast from heaven a chain of gold, and lay hold of it, all you gods and all you goddesses; yet you could not drag to earth out of heaven Zeus the counselor most high, not even though you laboured mightily. But whenever I was really minded to pull with all my heart, then with earth itself I would draw it up and with the sea as well; and the rope I would then bind around a peak of Olympus and all those things would hang in space. By so much do I surpass gods and surpass men."
Forgive the diversion. I do a lot of research into mythology. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
Edited by - Eldacar on 14 Mar 2011 06:41:25 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 08:15:15
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Well, thank you for doing my research for me!
You have essentially proven my point that with the coming of later editions, Gods have become more powerful while mortals have become less powerful.
"Once upon a time..." it didn't cost xp to create pocket dimensions, the creator was REWARDED xp for making them...along with magic items!
So yes, thank you...you have proven my point rather nicely. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 11:15:39
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quote:
You have essentially proven my point that with the coming of later editions, Gods have become more powerful while mortals have become less powerful.
Mortals have gained significant power by the mechanics. One has only to look at things like the Incantatrix or the Tainted Scholar* to recognise that. The only thing is that deities have access to class levels as well, so they can do what a mortal does as well as having all their godly powers when appropriately built (most aren't - off the top of my head, one of the most "optimised" deities is Thor from the 3rd edition Deities and Demigods).
* The Tainted Scholar is the third most powerful class in the entirety of the 3.0/3.5 D&D game, yielding the top two spots only to the Illithid Savant and the Beholder Mage. Within a very short period of taking your first level in the class, you will be nigh-unstoppable by anything that isn't a deity (and even then, it can occasionally be a tricky prospect owing to the Tainted Scholar usually having save DCs for their spells that are well into the 70s or higher).
quote:
"Once upon a time..." it didn't cost xp to create pocket dimensions, the creator was REWARDED xp for making them...along with magic items!
It costs to create magic items because XP is used as a barometer for "spirit" or "soul" - you're putting something of yourself into what you create, which is represented by the XP loss to your character. Similarly, creating a demiplane requires enormous expenditure on the part of the spellcaster, because they are literally creating a planar realm (even if it is just a small demiplane).
If you're talking about "roleplaying XP" then that's something for individual DMs to work out, and is outside the scope of a mechanics-central discussion.
And once again, let me reiterate that I have no problem with deities being extremely powerful, because I don't view them as merely powerful beings, but as representations of reality itself. So they should be that powerful. Of course, I also play this up, because they can't really act outside their nature/portfolios. If they try, then Bad Things will happen.
In my games, beings like Asmodeus, Zaphkiel and their ilk are also at least deity-level if not stronger, because they represent fundamental elements of reality as well. Asmodeus, to me, represents the very essence of Lawful Evil, a projection of reality and the multiverse given form and substance. Similarly, Zaphkiel is the essence of Lawful Good. They aren't just powerful beings, they're representatives of something that is a constant all across the cosmos, and as such can't be defeated or slain even by deities, let alone mortals. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 17:23:31
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I'd like to point out also that in 2nd ed (and presumably before) the XP reward for creating demi-plane/pocket dimensions and/or amgic itmes was largely due to the fact that wizards gained XP more slowly than other classes for the most part. They also required MORE xp to advance in older editions, so they HAD to have extra benefits to offset this. With the equalizing of XP across the class board, that is no longer the case. so now they get just as much and level up JUST AS FAST as everyone else. Rogues used to get XP for picking pockets and using their skills, too, but that also is no longer the case. But they can do more at lower levels now, so it evens out. Mortals have not LOST any power at all in recent editions- it's just been streamlined in the mechanics. And just looking over some of the classes from 3rd ed, some of which are uvber-broken, it seems to me they have much MORE power than in earlier days of the game. And if you'd ever met some of my players, you'd seethat almost any race and class combo can now do FAR more than they used to.
@Eldacar. I am indeed aware that Sky Father was one of Zeus's titles, that's why I used it a s a title for my own pantheon's leader- he is modeled partly on Zeus/Odin, and partly off of Helm and Torm. (zeus also happens to be one of my two patrons as a Wiccan, but that's another thing altogether, lol!) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 17:45:58
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quote:
Eldacar
quote:
Hearing "their name": easily done via a single well worded wish.
The first mention of this power was in a description for the Symbul, and IIRC I think it (along with other powers) was vaguely described as being the result of unique magics and multiple wishes. This is long before Chosen of Mystra were given such powers (in fact, the term "Chosen" hadn't been coined yet, let alone any template of powers for them); it also predates the published descriptions of deities/powers possessing this ability. Wish was the only canon spell which might have this effect in D&D of that era; I wouldn't personally use the term "easily done" in any context involving wishes (since what you get is largely determined by the psychology and whims of your DM). |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 14 Mar 2011 17:47:48 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2011 : 23:32:52
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| And when wish is cast by a god? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2011 : 03:50:57
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<Le sigh>
I'll submit to the end of this. Obviously I'm rather alone in my feeling that mortals have taken a hit with edition changes in comparison to the increasing power of gods.
HOWEVER...I'll glad sit in any session of 1st Edition AD&D playing a character and then the same character in later editions and show you that Mortals don't cut it against Gods in later editions. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2011 : 13:18:32
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quote:
And when wish is cast by a god?
Then it's usually coming from the DM controlling the deity, unless a player actually has a deity for a character. Basically, it winds up being DM fiat either way.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
HOWEVER...I'll glad sit in any session of 1st Edition AD&D playing a character and then the same character in later editions and show you that Mortals don't cut it against Gods in later editions.
Similarly, I'd be happy to take a Paladin 1 / Beholder Mage 10 / Tainted Scholar 1 / Dweomerkeeper 4 / Incantatrix 4 against most of the demigod-level deities in 3rd edition. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
Edited by - Eldacar on 15 Mar 2011 13:19:55 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2011 : 18:42:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
And when wish is cast by a god?
Then it's usually coming from the DM controlling the deity, unless a player actually has a deity for a character. Basically, it winds up being DM fiat either way.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
HOWEVER...I'll glad sit in any session of 1st Edition AD&D playing a character and then the same character in later editions and show you that Mortals don't cut it against Gods in later editions.
Similarly, I'd be happy to take a Paladin 1 / Beholder Mage 10 / Tainted Scholar 1 / Dweomerkeeper 4 / Incantatrix 4 against most of the demigod-level deities in 3rd edition.
Not the Greater Gods? Then you submit that your character couldn't stand against a Greater God?
Then, again, it proves my point. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2011 : 01:43:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Not the Greater Gods? Then you submit that your character couldn't stand against a Greater God?
No, a mortal would be unable to stand against an actual greater god, even discounting abilities like Divine Splendour and Mass Life and Death.
"Always Maximize Roll
Greater deities (rank 16-20) automatically get the best result possible on any check, saving throw, attack roll, or damage roll. Calculate success, failure, or other effects accordingly. When a greater deity makes a check, attack, or save assume a 20 was rolled and calculate success or failure from there. A d20 should still be rolled and used to check for a threat of a critical hit. This quality means that greater deities never need the Maximize Spell feat, because their spells have maximum effect already."
It might be possible for the character I posted to stand against an avatar of a greater deity. That's assuming I was both extremely well-prepared, managed to go first and was very, very lucky (having the backing of another deity would also be extremely useful), but that would only be one avatar (the deity can always send more). A greater deity should be more than capable of curbstomping a mere 20th level mortal (the build I gave you) even without divine ranks, since they all have at least 20 outsider HD and 30-ish class levels (usually 40+). It's like you're fighting a 50th level character already, so there's a huge gap you need to overcome that, believe it or not, has absolutely nothing to do with the actual divine abilities the deity has.
So if your point was that a higher-level character has an advantage over a lower-level character, then yes, your point would have been proven. But I don't think that was your point. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
Edited by - Eldacar on 16 Mar 2011 01:45:15 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2011 : 02:08:49
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1E Fiend Folio has an entry for aleax.
An aleax is "a physical manifestation of the vengeance of [gods]", formed and deployed to punish/redeem those who transgress or anger the god. It is basically a duplicate of the intended victim (insofar as stats and appearance), but it also has a progressively increasing regeneration rate, it's 100% magic resistant, it can inflict greater damage, and it has a smattering of minor divine powers. It doesn't matter how powerful a mortal might be because the god forms an aleax which is more powerful still. It is entirely immune to all forms of attack by any entity other than it's target.
If slain by an aleax, a character basically loses all his treasure, all his magical items become nonmagical, and he loses half his total accumulated XP. He is automatically resurrected and may continue life (at his lowered level) without fear of another visitation by an aleax so long as he remains true to his god.
If the aleax is slain, it still takes the character (or at least his soul) to serve the god for one year and a day, after which the character is returned to his normal life. If his service to the god was exemplary he may even be given a boon (such as a magical item, promotion to next XP level, etc).
In 2E there is a greater variety of divine minions to serve these functions and they tend to even more deadly, particularly those in planescape.
You can bet that killing an avatar will anger a god. So expect to see something like an aleax, perhaps accompanied by another avatar (or a bunch of avatars) or other creatures as the god sees fit ... remember that gods are nearly omniscient (omniscient enough) and the purpose of this sort of visit is not "balanced encounter" as much as execution. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 16 Mar 2011 02:27:25 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2011 : 09:22:50
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The Aleax also appears in 3rd edition, in the Book of Exalted Deeds.
It is basically a direct copy of the character it is being sent after, except with a slew of additional powers and abilities on top of that from the Aleax template. Included among those abilities is a complete immunity to attacks from anybody other than the person it is sent after. It's sent out to punish a transgression against the deity, and if it wins against the character, then it takes them before the deity, who will mete out judgement as he (or she) sees fit.
If the character wins, however, then he gains a few neat benefits (+2 bonus to Wisdom, and I think a few other minor things), and the deity won't come after him for that particular incident again (though he can, of course, inspire further vengeance with subsequent transgressions). |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2011 : 14:53:17
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Awesome...
I like using inevitables for hunting un-pious divine transgressors.
Varakhuts (Fiend Folio) in particular are especially designed to stop mortals intent on becoming or slaying a god. If such a mortal succeeds inspite of the Varakhuts efforts they serve the new godling for a certain limited part of time to defend it from other immediate threats that endanger fledgling gods (hungering Elder Evils for example). |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2011 : 17:28:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Not the Greater Gods? Then you submit that your character couldn't stand against a Greater God?
No, a mortal would be unable to stand against an actual greater god, even discounting abilities like Divine Splendour and Mass Life and Death.
"Always Maximize Roll
Greater deities (rank 16-20) automatically get the best result possible on any check, saving throw, attack roll, or damage roll. Calculate success, failure, or other effects accordingly. When a greater deity makes a check, attack, or save assume a 20 was rolled and calculate success or failure from there. A d20 should still be rolled and used to check for a threat of a critical hit. This quality means that greater deities never need the Maximize Spell feat, because their spells have maximum effect already."
It might be possible for the character I posted to stand against an avatar of a greater deity. That's assuming I was both extremely well-prepared, managed to go first and was very, very lucky (having the backing of another deity would also be extremely useful), but that would only be one avatar (the deity can always send more). A greater deity should be more than capable of curbstomping a mere 20th level mortal (the build I gave you) even without divine ranks, since they all have at least 20 outsider HD and 30-ish class levels (usually 40+). It's like you're fighting a 50th level character already, so there's a huge gap you need to overcome that, believe it or not, has absolutely nothing to do with the actual divine abilities the deity has.
So if your point was that a higher-level character has an advantage over a lower-level character, then yes, your point would have been proven. But I don't think that was your point.
Nope, my point was that in earlier editions of the game, Gods and their Avatars might be in the mid 20s of their highest class level; and those levels didn't stack with other classes to give higher To Hit chances, Better Saving Throws (although in 3.x a Greater God always makes their saves anyway) and etc.
I'm talking about the changing of editions here folks...I don't think you guys are following. Sure, mortal characters are in fact "getting more powerful" when compared to mortals...but not when compared to Gods. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2011 : 17:31:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
1E Fiend Folio has an entry for aleax.
An aleax is "a physical manifestation of the vengeance of [gods]", formed and deployed to punish/redeem those who transgress or anger the god. It is basically a duplicate of the intended victim (insofar as stats and appearance), but it also has a progressively increasing regeneration rate, it's 100% magic resistant, it can inflict greater damage, and it has a smattering of minor divine powers. It doesn't matter how powerful a mortal might be because the god forms an aleax which is more powerful still. It is entirely immune to all forms of attack by any entity other than it's target.
If slain by an aleax, a character basically loses all his treasure, all his magical items become nonmagical, and he loses half his total accumulated XP. He is automatically resurrected and may continue life (at his lowered level) without fear of another visitation by an aleax so long as he remains true to his god.
If the aleax is slain, it still takes the character (or at least his soul) to serve the god for one year and a day, after which the character is returned to his normal life. If his service to the god was exemplary he may even be given a boon (such as a magical item, promotion to next XP level, etc).
In 2E there is a greater variety of divine minions to serve these functions and they tend to even more deadly, particularly those in planescape.
You can bet that killing an avatar will anger a god. So expect to see something like an aleax, perhaps accompanied by another avatar (or a bunch of avatars) or other creatures as the god sees fit ... remember that gods are nearly omniscient (omniscient enough) and the purpose of this sort of visit is not "balanced encounter" as much as execution.
The Aleax only pertains to those who transgress against THEIR God...someone who does not worship that God can't have an Aleax sent against them. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2011 : 18:54:42
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A further complication when encountering a divine agent of punishment:
The diety you have angered will no doubt entirely withdraw the support of their portfolio during this one-sided battle. Priests and paladins won't have any access to faith-based powers and magics. If you've offended Mystra or Azuth you won't be able to (safely) use spells or magic of any sort. If you've offended Tymora you'll probably find yourself supernaturally unfortunate (while the aleax is extraordinary lucky). Offending Bane might turn your minions against you when they receive "encouragement" from Bane to opportunistically promote themselves.
I've only used such beings twice. The first time as a clumsy expression of teenaged angst; the play session was a heated TPK disappointment for everybody but ultimately served me as a valuable learning experience. The second (much more careful) deployment was against a troublesome NPC (Volothamp Geddarm, of course!) who the players needed to protect ... a stressful running battle involving a tremendous amount of teleporting, healing, distraction, decoys, desperate strategy, and defensive buffing; the PCs couldn't affect or obstruct Beshaba's "Terminator" (evil Volo lookalike) aleax in any way but they certainly could assist poor Volo in his unfortunate struggle.
[Edit]
My reason for mentioning aleax was to demonstrate that D&D gods have the ability to defend themselves quite adequately. They aren't constrained by piddly level 20 or level 50 powers ... the aleax (which is just an agent formed for a specific task, then discarded) always has at least as much power as its mortal target. The power reservoirs of deities are not infinite, but they are certainly measured in magnitudes far beyond the capacities (or comprehension) of any single mortal.
I agree that the game rules in various editions show avatars and other divine vessels with fluctuating levels of power relative to mortal champions, which in some instances dip dangerously low and make godslaying a somewhat realistic goal. They do much the same thing for many of the prominent NPC stats; some players hunted Asmodeus in 1E, others hunt Elminster in 3E. Whether gods (actual gods, not just their little avatar mannequins) can be slain by mere mortals is ultimately the DM's or game designer's call, I personally declare such an action virtually impossible in my gaming. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 16 Mar 2011 22:14:15 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2011 : 23:40:14
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quote:
Nope, my point was that in earlier editions of the game, Gods and their Avatars might be in the mid 20s of their highest class level; and those levels didn't stack with other classes to give higher To Hit chances, Better Saving Throws (although in 3.x a Greater God always makes their saves anyway) and etc.
So your point is that in later editions, the levels of gods and their avatars increased (from their mid-twenties up to forty levels or more), and base attack bonus or similar was made stackable.
The thing is, of course, that mortals did as well, at least when addressing the issues like stacking save bonuses and base attack bonus (whether their levels increased depends on the DM for how fast the player levels, whether they're using levels beyond 20th, and so on), and several NPCs also increased in level (for example, Elmisnter went from a 29th level character to a 35th level character with a +4 CR template on top of that).
So yes, a deity gains the benefit of 20 levels of cleric and 20 levels of wizard. But a mortal cleric 20 / wizard 20 gains the exact same benefits from those forty character levels in terms of saving throws, base attack bonus, access to spells, and so on and so forth. It simply isn't realistic, however, to expect a 20th level character to ever be capable of standing against a 50th level character, with or without divine rank complicating the issue. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2011 : 02:35:19
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Agreed. And this was half my point to begin with. In earlier editions, all you had to worry about was the god's class levels. #rd and later introduced the outsider HD into the equation, but even without them, as was stated earlier, most of them have AT LEAST 30 class levels!! Many have 40 or more, or even 50+! It's completely unrealistic to expect a mortal character with only 20-ish levels to compete with that. And honestly, the gods in 2nd ed, or at least their avatars, were FAR too easy to fight. It made god-slaying much too tempting, leading to mass god-hunts, and that was really the whole reason that was changed.
Earlier editions made it TOO easy to go god-killing. It should NEVER be as simple as that to destroy an deity- even a relatively weak one. Otherwise, the entire cosmology of the game would be compromised. Planescape went a little way toward rectifying that error, but 3rd was where it was finally "fixed". It's not about widening the gap, it's about fixing a flawed game mechanic that was "broken". Making gods harder to kill gave back some of the mystique and awe to those gods, so that mortals would respect their power. 1st ed seems to have been about challenging everything that moved, according to Dalor's views. If killing gods was THAT easy, everyone would do it, and the fun would go right out of the game. Even 2nd ed was guilty of this to some degree. The stats given for gods in the Monster Mythology and Deities and Demigods books made it seem as if gods were just high-level monsters that could easily be killed. They are NOT. Nor should they be treated that way. They have priests and followers for a REASON. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2011 : 02:46:20
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| A problem was the scaling of high levels in 1E/2E. Once you hit around level 20 your THAC0, Saves, # of attacks, and spell matrix could no longer improve, your damage didn't increase ... about the only thing that did increase with each subsequent level was your HP, and only by a few points. Your best hope for real increases in power would be accumulation of upgraded magical loot. A level 50 character was basically just a level 20 character plus maybe 60 hit points and better magical gear. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2011 : 18:12:02
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I'm honestly to the point that I can't tell if you guys are taking my side or not...BUT...
I can say to all that I NEVER thought in the frame of mind that everything was there to be challenged. I DID play a Wizard that thought nothing was beyond his ability to master.
I've also played devoted Paladins, humble Friars, street thugs, and even a rather pitiable gnome illusionist/thief that was afraid of almost anything.
So PLEASE don't categorize me in the "Power Player" role or an egotistical megalomaniac with all my characters...there is a vast difference between a role that is being played...and being a certain way. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2011 : 18:34:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Nope, my point was that in earlier editions of the game, Gods and their Avatars might be in the mid 20s of their highest class level; and those levels didn't stack with other classes to give higher To Hit chances, Better Saving Throws (although in 3.x a Greater God always makes their saves anyway) and etc.
So your point is that in later editions, the levels of gods and their avatars increased (from their mid-twenties up to forty levels or more), and base attack bonus or similar was made stackable.
The thing is, of course, that mortals did as well, at least when addressing the issues like stacking save bonuses and base attack bonus (whether their levels increased depends on the DM for how fast the player levels, whether they're using levels beyond 20th, and so on), and several NPCs also increased in level (for example, Elmisnter went from a 29th level character to a 35th level character with a +4 CR template on top of that).
So yes, a deity gains the benefit of 20 levels of cleric and 20 levels of wizard. But a mortal cleric 20 / wizard 20 gains the exact same benefits from those forty character levels in terms of saving throws, base attack bonus, access to spells, and so on and so forth. It simply isn't realistic, however, to expect a 20th level character to ever be capable of standing against a 50th level character, with or without divine rank complicating the issue.
You are only partly right in this...
Player Character Levels did NOT stay the same if you translated them from 1e/2e to 3e...The character, if of one class, stayed the same only to a certain point, and then began losing levels to translate.
If the character had two classes (or more) they QUICKLY lost out in levels. I believe their highest character level was the base, then they took away HALF their other levels. Honestly can't remember the exact manner, but this is close.
So a Fighter 10 stayed a Fighter 10. A Fighter 10/Magic User 10 became a character with only 15 total levels, and it was up to the player to choose...so perhaps a Fighter 5/Wizard 10. Or a Fighter 26 might have become a fighter 22 or some such...again I don't remember exactly and don't have the rules conversion booklet in front of me.
NPCs like Elminster are not a good example...
And Gods are SURELY not a good example as their Hit Points, to hit ability and etc. nearly doubled (or sometimes more than doubled!).
So can anyone honestly say this wasn't a divide that widened from one edition to the next? If you say it isn't, then I would have to say you are either deluded or outright fabricating obfuscations. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2011 : 19:04:11
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Dalor — Are you saying the gods are unkillable in later editions because high-level mortals were nerfed?
I'll admit I'm not entirely clear about what position you're trying to argue. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Abenabin Gimblescrew
Seeker
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2011 : 20:45:07
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Well I don't know about previous editions as much as 3.x editions and Pathfinder, but I think what is trying to be said is that mortals who have zero restrictions, or shall we call it "free will", seem to be more held at a disadvantage more so now then they were when dealing with the Divine Powers. For instance, demons or devils had to follow rules that are divinely written they can't break. Sure they can wiggle around it like a good lawyer finding loopholes, but for the most part their word is their bond and must follow through or they get hit hard by the cosmic order.
I personally always run my deities held to a "Divine Law". They are restricted to follow their duties and their functions, but the mortals are not and therefore can best them. I said best - not kill, maim, destroy, or take out. I agree with what Ed that Sage brought forth earlier in the thread. Deities cannot truly and completely be destroyed in the Realms. That is just how it is there, but that is what was intended. It was meant for DMs to decide what transpired in THEIR Realms not what happened in Ed's Realms (which we all know is drastically different then what it has become I'm sure).
Think of it like a Spiderman complex the deities have to follow. With greater power comes even greater responsibilities and less they can directly influence in the Material Plane without allowing another deity the same ability. It is effectively a Cold War raging in the pantheon, and the way gods/goddesses fight each other is through mortals who are not constrained by their restrictions. Hence is why Mortals are indeed more powerful than the Divine. Their actions envied by the gods for their lives are finite and their flame burns brighter than theirs will ever be. |
Invention is the key to staying ahead of the competition. |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 00:00:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Nope, my point was that in earlier editions of the game, Gods and their Avatars might be in the mid 20s of their highest class level; and those levels didn't stack with other classes to give higher To Hit chances, Better Saving Throws (although in 3.x a Greater God always makes their saves anyway) and etc.
So your point is that in later editions, the levels of gods and their avatars increased (from their mid-twenties up to forty levels or more), and base attack bonus or similar was made stackable.
The thing is, of course, that mortals did as well, at least when addressing the issues like stacking save bonuses and base attack bonus (whether their levels increased depends on the DM for how fast the player levels, whether they're using levels beyond 20th, and so on), and several NPCs also increased in level (for example, Elmisnter went from a 29th level character to a 35th level character with a +4 CR template on top of that).
So yes, a deity gains the benefit of 20 levels of cleric and 20 levels of wizard. But a mortal cleric 20 / wizard 20 gains the exact same benefits from those forty character levels in terms of saving throws, base attack bonus, access to spells, and so on and so forth. It simply isn't realistic, however, to expect a 20th level character to ever be capable of standing against a 50th level character, with or without divine rank complicating the issue.
You are only partly right in this...
See, I'm confused now, because I'm pretty sure I looked at every single aspect of the post you made that I quoted (to hit = BAB, saving throws = saving throws, levels = levels), so in order to only be partly right I would have had to get at least half of that wrong.
Either that, or you've jumped around again. I really can't tell what you're arguing any more. It seemed to be that mortals were weakened. Then after I pointed out at least one strong build, you said something about levels. Now I've pointed out the problems with a 20th level character going against a 50th level character for any reason, and how it has nothing to do with divine rank, but you seem to have missed that.
Maybe you could say, clearly and with finality, just what your position is? I was under the impression that the response of mine you're quoting was already addressing your argument, but apparently it isn't.
quote:
Player Character Levels did NOT stay the same if you translated them from 1e/2e to 3e...The character, if of one class, stayed the same only to a certain point, and then began losing levels to translate.
You only find this to be the case with some player characters, which was a necessary result of changing over from dual-classing into a new class system that actually encourages multiclassing.
quote:
And Gods are SURELY not a good example as their Hit Points, to hit ability and etc. nearly doubled (or sometimes more than doubled!).
Hit point damage is usually for chumps in 3rd edition (there's a reason why "blaster wizards" are considered very sub-optimal builds). It also doesn't take much to pump out hundreds of points of damage, even thousands if you put a bit of effort into it. BAB, as I noted previously, benefited both mortals and deities.
quote:
So can anyone honestly say this wasn't a divide that widened from one edition to the next?
Give me fifty character levels in standard D&D (meaning roughly what the deities are given) and I can "kill" anything short of a greater deity. Give me access to third-party sources (specifically Kingdoms of Kalamar) and I can even take on one of those (pre-epic, at that). I can mock up a build for it in short order, if you like, and show you exactly how to do it. My previous construction was designed to hopefully challenge demigods in just twenty levels, and considering that even demigods have double the level count in many cases, I'd say I gave a pretty good accounting of myself, wouldn't you? |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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The Diminishing of Mortal Power
