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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 06:25:08
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@ Dalor: I mentioned my RL views simply to illustrate that most people would never even THINK of aspiring to the level of a god. And since much of our fantasy literature was inspired at least in part by RL mythology, I'd have to say that the concept itself is certainly relevant. Anyone who is even the least bit religious will tell you that man was never meant to fully understand the gods or their place in the universe.
Look at it this way- would the average person in the Realms look at Chauntea or Lathander and say "I could do it better."? No, because they do not understand what kind of power they are really dealing with. Neither does a wizard, no matter HOW powerful he THINKS he is. He can TOUCH the fabric of reality, sure, but he CANNOT truly control it. Look at all the possible consequences of a Wish spell. And that's just a tiny FRACTION of the kind of power a god is using. A mortal would just be a kid playing with his dad's gun, without understanding the amount of damage he could do with it.
And as for out-powering a god- why would you WANT to? I think you are confusing heroes with power-hungry mages. (Who seem to be a dime a dozen, I'll grant you.) It seems to boil down to the level of maturity of the game. Some players and DM's are perfectly fine with the ever-increasing spiral of power-gaming that leads to god-killing. My own hubby once played a PC back in 1st ed days who killed Artemis, Anubis, five avatars of Tiamat, an avatar of Bahamut, the elder Elemental God (in the module) well, you get the point. So what's next after you've done that? I think Diffan had the right of it. Once you start actually challenging gods, it's time to move on and retire the PC. Better to roll up a new character and have the old one become an NPC. (And possibly be used against the new one later!)
And there is nothing wrong with heroes being heroes and fighting the good fight against a god. (Whom I would presume is evil, if the hero is fighting him/her.) I just don't think a hero should be able to KILL said god.
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 06:34:04
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Well, at that point I think it's just too extreme; lets take the God of War video game series. The first one is actually one of my all time favorite games. The latter two, while still providing great gameplay and stunning graphics(especially the third) fell flat because they were too much. Too epic, too awesome. Overloads the suspension of disbelief. In the first game you have Kratos going through tremendous hardship to slay one god; by the third he's carving his way through a whole pantheon.
A mortal fighting a god needs to feel like something that is beyond them. It needs to be the single greatest challenge they will ever face. But most importantly it needs to be about making both parties look good. If done wrong then all you've accomplished is making the "god" look weak. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 06:52:49
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| I really think God of War is one of the best examples of mortals challenging the divine. You have a protaganist with every advantage; he's part god, all of his weapons are gifts from the gods, he's had training from a god, he has direct guidence from a god, and despite all of that it is still a collossal struggle, a truly uphill battle that at times, you aren't sure he's going to win. By the third game it is really and truly a forgone conclusion. Like reading a Drizzt Do'Urden fight; you already know how it's going to end, so all the oomph is taken out of it. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 00:44:15
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So...the two of you are of the same mind; I'm sorry I'm not.
Why would Gods be unable to be challenged? The fact that the Gods have ANY interaction with mortals shows that they are not in fact that far above mortals in fantasy.
The way the Forgotten Realms Gods are set up makes them weak...weaker than a mortal who doesn't rely on others to maintain their power.
If you guys think that a mortal can't take on a God, then fine and well; but I assure you that the limits placed on Gods make them weaker than some of the more powerful in the Forgotten Realms.
I'll keep playing my version, you keep playing yours I guess. LOL
As for Real Life...it has little bearing on a fantasy setting...little at all to me. If even my fantasy is limited by my reality, then fantasy isn't boundless...to me that isn't fantasy. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 01:43:51
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Karsus stole the power of the most powerful goddess in the Realms... perhaps one of the most powerful in existence. And he did it with her knowledge (no magic can be created without her knowledge), and she couldn't do a damn thing about it. Her only 'out' was to kill herself.
The best kept secret of 'The Gods' is that they need us, we don't need them.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 17:00:12
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Never liked that concept, personally. Always had a rule in my homegames that mostly went unspoken and a few of my players never heard it invoked because it literally never came up, but it was still there. If, for some reason, all the gods suddenly disappeared, the Nine Hells would seem like a very pleasant summer vacation compared to the absolute misery that would befall the multiverse.
Never came up, like I said, but thought it would be a good thing to keep. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 17:48:12
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Actually...men and women ALL THE TIME say "I could have done it better than (insert god here)!"
The thing with the Forgotten Realms is: when they are given the chance to prove it, they don't really do much better.
Forgotten Realms "gods" are fallible just like the mortals they lord it over. Mystra was mortal...Cyric...Bane...Azuth...etc...
Are they somehow "more perfect" when they gain God powers? Nope.
Fantasy Gods (and many historical ones!) are HIGHLY flawed. They magnify and intensify mortal behavior to extremes...not to perfection; but to extreme flaws often.
They are solely obsessed with their "portfolio" and thus are somewhat hollow and empty for lack of being well rounded.
So...I do believe that some mortals may very well, and vocally, give the opinion that they could "do it better" and might actually be right because they have the ability to think outside a portfolio box.
I'm unsure of the favor given to gods...as more often than not they have little meaning beyond an afterlife reward; which only helps to assuage the fears of mortals of their own mortality. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 19:54:32
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True, Dalor, a central premise in the Avatar series (ToT) was that the gods focus upon their portfolios to the blind exlusion of all else. Ascended mortals were assumed to be more capable of thinking outside their portfolio-box, at least for a while; as Midnight, Cyric, and Kelemvor clearly demonstrated. The eldest gods (such as Selūne, Shar, Talos, and Tyr) are the most oblivious, while relatively newer gods (Mask, Myrkul, Bhaal) are less constrained by unoriginal thought. A few oddballs like Jergal and Bane seem to defy this rule to some extent, at least when urged by their allies and peers.
Classic mythologies (particularly the Egyptian, Celtic, Greek, and Norse) had gods with innumerable and highly exaggerated "human" flaws. These concepts of anthropomorphism are less evident in most pagan/shamanistic faiths and almost entirely absent from most monotheistic ones. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2011 : 20:18:38
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I'm not saying they aren't flawed, not by any means. What I'm saying is that in my realms, flawed or no, they are necessary to the continued existance of the world. If they were removed, it would become a far less pleasant place to be.
Granted I never came up with the specifics of that. 4e gives me the "without the gods the primordials would turn us all into mud for their continued making and remaking of the world hobby", but that is kind of cheap. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 01:52:49
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| Agreed, CoA. Gods may be flawed, but aside from the ones who were once mortals, they have EONS of experience in their respective spheres of influence. They are (and IMO, SHOULD be) intrinsically linked to those "portfolios" (never liked that term, BTW) they control. As an example, Umberlee controls the tides, creates waves and whirlpools and generally oversees (Heh, just realized the pun there) the sea. Without her guidance, there might be no currents or tides to aid ships, or storms might rage unabated, or perhaps there would be none at all! (Which is also not good- periodic storms at sea suck up massive amounts of water to later fall as rain!) Mortals DO need the gods, particularly the nature-oriented ones. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 02:29:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Agreed, CoA. Gods may be flawed, but aside from the ones who were once mortals, they have EONS of experience in their respective spheres of influence. They are (and IMO, SHOULD be) intrinsically linked to those "portfolios" (never liked that term, BTW) they control. As an example, Umberlee controls the tides, creates waves and whirlpools and generally oversees (Heh, just realized the pun there) the sea. Without her guidance, there might be no currents or tides to aid ships, or storms might rage unabated, or perhaps there would be none at all! (Which is also not good- periodic storms at sea suck up massive amounts of water to later fall as rain!) Mortals DO need the gods, particularly the nature-oriented ones.
I thought the Moon controlled tides? 
Seriously though...in a fantasy genre, there is no need for Gods.
True, it might be a "boring" world without magic...it doesn't mean that Gods are needed though. In fact, it seems to me that Gods are only needed because mortals want them.
Tell me, in the Forgotten Realms; what would happen if nobody worshiped Gods at all? Wouldn't that mean that the Gods would cease to be? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 02:36:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Agreed, CoA. Gods may be flawed, but aside from the ones who were once mortals, they have EONS of experience in their respective spheres of influence. They are (and IMO, SHOULD be) intrinsically linked to those "portfolios" (never liked that term, BTW) they control. As an example, Umberlee controls the tides, creates waves and whirlpools and generally oversees (Heh, just realized the pun there) the sea. Without her guidance, there might be no currents or tides to aid ships, or storms might rage unabated, or perhaps there would be none at all! (Which is also not good- periodic storms at sea suck up massive amounts of water to later fall as rain!) Mortals DO need the gods, particularly the nature-oriented ones.
I thought the Moon controlled tides?
Seriously though...in a fantasy genre, there is no need for Gods.
True, it might be a "boring" world without magic...it doesn't mean that Gods are needed though. In fact, it seems to me that Gods are only needed because mortals want them.
Tell me, in the Forgotten Realms; what would happen if nobody worshiped Gods at all? Wouldn't that mean that the Gods would cease to be?
I don't think it would be as clear-cut as all that.
As Ed has said:-
"January 25, 2005: Hello, all. Ed answers Elf_Friend:
Regarding dead gods: mortals of Faerūn dont know the true current body count, or where the residue of the divine essence of a dead god lies.
In part, this is because its very hard for a god to truly die unless very carefully destroyed by another god: otherwise, if some mortal of Faerūn still worships them or discovers them and starts worshipping them, later (even centuries later), they rise again, albeit as almost powerless ghostly awarenesses (at their weakest).
The arguments among churches (about what god did what to which other god) confuse the average inhabitant of the Realms (who to believe?), but Id say that among humans, most are aware that Bhaal, Iyachtu Xvim, Leira, and Myrkul are dead. Only sages and some priests and wizards have even heard of, say, Karsus, and most folk accept that there are countless godlings worshipped by various cultists here and there across the Realms (from Savras and other half-remembered names to the beast-cults to those dangerous folk who worship the skeletons of DRAGONS if ye can believe it, aye?).
So some of them are dead and gone forever (although one can then debate just how long forever is, of course :}), but most are, as you say, just dead, ready to be revived thru some epic act or worship.
So saith Ed, Creator and Supreme Loremaster of the Realms. Also Champion Belcher of Colborne, I trow.
love to all,
THO"
Also:-
"So theres constant worship going on for almost every divine being, rumored-to-be-divine being, half-forgotten and misremembered godlings... and even slain divine beings linger on as demigods or divine sparks that can come back if the right conditions occur. Its hard to fall from the ranks of demigodhood, once attained: one simply becomes a weaker demigod. Mortals in the Realms are always whispering prayers to forgotten gods, in hopes that the grateful deity will give them a lot of aid, swiftly, either out of eagerness to have a new mortal worshipper to command, or simply because they hear and heed the prayer (where a more popular deity may miss or have scant regard for that one prayer, amid the deafening chorus of so many)." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 02:43:35
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| Yes, and so would all their followers as Nature and all other forces of the multi-verse would then rage out of control, and collapse. This HAS HAPPENED!!! Mystra dies, and all magic goes haywire, killing hundreds, creating dangerous instabilities, and generally mucking things up. Gods DON'T just exist for mortals in Faerun, they exist OUTSIDE of mortal understanding. They ARE their portfolios, at least for the most part. Kill Chauntea (I like her as an example, because you CANNOT survive without the bounty of Nature!) and the world suffers- horribly. There would be no more food, no birds, no trees, NOTHING. Toril would become a barren wasteland, much like much of Athas is. And Athas HAS no gods. Think about that. No gods = no LIFE. There HAVE to be gods, to allow mortals to even exist. This may not be true in our world, but it IS true in most fantasy worlds. The gods exist to crerate and maintain the world and the life on it. THat is their purpose- not just so mortals can have an afterlife. That's simply the reward mortals get for helping their respective deities keep the power they use to balance the cosmic forces they control. It's a symbiotic relationship. Mortals worship gods so that gods can gain/keep the power to allow mortals to survive in the worlds they live on. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 03:57:21
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I guess I'm just having a hard time accepting the change to the rules.
In 1st Edition (where I played for sooooo long) the Gods simply weren't all powerful...and indeed it wasn't their raw levels that made them gods; it was their ability to give clerical spells that made them gods, their divine realms, their ability to give an afterlife...
But all that COULD be challenged by the likes of mortals who had the power to do so.
Saying a God is not to be challenged just because he has been around longer is like saying a Human wizard shouldn't be as powerful as a long lived Elf wizard...
I see the logic; but logic is mutable depending on the variables and viewpoints used.
So to me, I think that a Mortal Wizard should be able to challenge the Gods and come out on top...or get smacked down for his overwhelming arrogance and stupidity.
Just depends on the character eh?  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 04:54:40
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If you want to talk about simple power, then yes, it certainly seems possible. More so in older editions, I think. Then again, I still hold to the idea that most of the gods were under-statted in 1st and 2nd editions. But as you pointed out, gods are not JUST powerful beings who have been around a long time, they are the embodiments of their portfolios. (Like a basic run/exe program given sentience. Which is actually a scary thought! Toril's "programs" with intelligence and desires....) Mortals don't have those abilities at all. They can't hand out clerical spells, no matter how powerful they get, can't answer prayers of others, don't have a planar "domain" with it's own afterlife, and they are not omniscient in their spheres of expertise. That last factor more than anything is what I think separates the gods from mortals. Step within a dozen miles of them with their name in your thoughts, and they KNOW. They can cast out their senses to see or hear any mention of them by anyone. At will. This is not something mortals can do except with powerful spells, and even then, the person must be known to the one doing the scrying. A powerful wizard MIGHT stand a chance, but what about fighters?What about a rogue? Cyric was a human rogue long before he was a god- and he went mad when he ascended. I think that is a telling detail.
Incidentally, I do have ways for mortals to compete directly with the gods in my HB world. Specifically, there is an artifact, a magical tome that writes itself, containing EVERY spell EVER created by mortal or god. It even contains a ritual to BECOME a god. And one of my major NPC villains (and her colossal advanced great wyrm red dragon paragon consort) has spent a good part of several of my campaigns searching for the "Master Copy" that is said to have that knowledge in it. (There are seven copies, but only the "original" contains that and two other "forbidden" bits of information.) The tome was in fact written by the god of knowledge and magic in my world, and is guarded by one of his most powerful and devout followers. But the ritual has some serious limitations, too. For one, it requires certain components that are difficult, if not almost impossible to get. It also can only be performed during a lunar conjunction (there are three moons of differing sizes, which come together to resemble a giant eye when in conjunction) which only happens once every thirty years. (It would have been longer, but I worked my calender and moon phases so precisely that it ended up being exactly thirty years to a conjunction cycle!) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 13:01:56
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Dalor, you've got the right of it. Take what you get from SOME posters with a HUGE grain of salt, frequently, we see more of "this is how it is" confused with "this is how it is in MY REALMS".
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I guess I'm just having a hard time accepting the change to the rules.
In 1st Edition (where I played for sooooo long) the Gods simply weren't all powerful...and indeed it wasn't their raw levels that made them gods; it was their ability to give clerical spells that made them gods, their divine realms, their ability to give an afterlife...
But all that COULD be challenged by the likes of mortals who had the power to do so.
Saying a God is not to be challenged just because he has been around longer is like saying a Human wizard shouldn't be as powerful as a long lived Elf wizard...
I see the logic; but logic is mutable depending on the variables and viewpoints used.
So to me, I think that a Mortal Wizard should be able to challenge the Gods and come out on top...or get smacked down for his overwhelming arrogance and stupidity.
Just depends on the character eh?
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2011 : 13:16:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Agreed, CoA. Gods may be flawed, but aside from the ones who were once mortals, they have EONS of experience in their respective spheres of influence...
This is too funny. Can anyone name a deity of Faerun that has a single EON of experience? Let alone eons? i.e. have been extant for 1 BILLION years? (Two billions for eons.) |
Edited by - Erdrick Stormedge on 11 Mar 2011 13:20:10 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 10:04:41
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Something I noticed:
quote:
The fact that the Gods have ANY interaction with mortals shows that they are not in fact that far above mortals in fantasy.
I have plenty of interactions with the ants in my back yard. I'm usually stepping on them or sending them running with ant-killer.
In other words, just because a being has interactions with mortals does not mean said being (in this case a god) is not miles upon miles ahead of them. Heck, Ao himself has interacted with mortals, when he descended at the end of the Time of Troubles (and spoke with Elminster). But if you claim he's not that far above mortals, then you're essentially being patently absurd, because he is so powerful that he doesn't even have a statblock like most FR gods do (which are approximately 60 character levels or thereabouts in 3rd/3.5e - in $E, though, I think Tiamat herself is only about 38th level or something, so it depowered gods significantly).
I personally like to think of deities in the sense of their portfolios (and by extension they themselves) being literally a part of reality. So Lathander, for example, isn't just a powerful being, he is in a very real sense of the term a personification of everything that he represents - dawn, rebirth, renewal and all that. Now, while an incredibly powerful mortal (i.e. 40 character levels or so) might be able to pull out a win against an avatar (maybe, and he'd need to get ridiculously lucky), to try and kill Lathander himself is like trying to kill part of reality. Same goes for Kelemvor - killing him is like trying to kill death. Killing Cyric is like killing strife, killing Tyr is killing justice, killing Mystra is killing magic (or at least the Weave, but six of one, half a dozen the other).
So if you try and kill a god, you're not just fighting a powerful being, you're trying to fight and defeat a part of reality itself. It's like you're fighting physics, or death, or time - it's not something you can fight, and certainly isn't something you can kill. This is of course just my interpretation of it, but I intensely dislike the concept of a god as merely a "powerful being" of some kind. They are mysterious, incredibly knowledgeable with senses, powers and abilities a mortal cannot begin to comprehend, and are connected to reality/their portfolios in such a sense that there is on one level no difference. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 13:14:06
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One question I haven't seen answered and find very intiguing is the reason why mortals in the past were 'better' able to challenge the gods.
There are some fantasy concepts of the deterioration of mortal power. In the beginning, just after mortal man was created by the gods, mortals were a great deal more powerful. That power could have been partially divine because of their close ties to their makers and the warlike role of humans in the ancient times, when dragons, giants and other primordial creations ruled the world. That power has subsequently been waning in strenght over the past millennia, partly by the lack of need for divine supersoldiers and on the other side past events that proved rebellious mortals to be problematic for the gods. Certain paranoid Gods have been (secretly) culling major pathways to power for most mortals.
The result is the modern humanoid not knowing how to fully utilize the divine spark of life that each one has inside. Heroes are exceptions to this though, and should be able to express power beyond whats thought possible. The Cale series are a good example of how this subject relates to the Realms: it has epic heroes and villains challenging the (semi-)divine order and coming out on top (at a great sacrifices). It even has a conversation of Riven and Cale acknowledging to eachother that they feel a divine spark has been in them all the time they lived, but they weren't aware or capable of manipulating it to their own ends.
That said, I think there still is a huge gap of power between semi-divine heroes (exarchs) and true gods. To me the greatest difference starts to kick in when a god starts to be able to uphold multiple consciences(avatars) at once with little difficulty; beings who have the conscience equal to a whole city of dedicated intellects are so difficult to outsmart that challenging them within the mortal realms seems foolish. Those times mortals can gain succes in besting such a being they should only be capable of attaining partial succes. Chaining/misleading/banishing a single avatar could then perhaps lead to convincing future avatars from interfering with the goals of said mortal. Other then that its a deathwish. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Acolyte
Australia
33 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2011 : 14:02:13
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| It seems to me that the main difference here is how people see the gods. Dalor seems to see them as simply powerful beings who anyone can match, while others (and it is the view pushed by the recent editions) is that gods are a fundamental force of nature that is far above mortal kind. Personally I find the second more interesting, and perhaps those that follow the second view are more interested in the back story of the game? |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 03:28:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Dalor, you've got the right of it. Take what you get from SOME posters with a HUGE grain of salt, frequently, we see more of "this is how it is" confused with "this is how it is in MY REALMS".
Erdrick, is there some particular reason you keep making these (frankly insulting) comments? Everything I've discussed is supported by the OFFICIAL lore. My own campaign does not even run in the FR, but a HB world, but it still relies heavily on all of the written sources of Planescape and the Realms. At least everything up to 4th ed, which I refuse to play or use. I've delved quite deeply into the various books on deities, and the various divine salient abilities, immunities, and characteristics or what-have-you presented seem to point to beings that are nearly impossible for mortals to even THINK of matching. as an example, let's look at their godly realms. Any deity above rank 1 has a permanent realm, usually on an outer plane. Within that realm, they have varying degrees of control over the environment, including temperature, scent, sounds, landmarks, enhanced magic, links to the Astral Plane, gravity, energy, and so on.
Last I checked, mortals can't do that. They also don't have the ability to grant spells, sense things remotely through followers or for several miles from extended range of their senses, communicate with anyone anywhere, block senses, they are not immortal (undeath or other methods of acquiring this aside) they don't have or grant domains, and don't have the immunities of gods. They also don't have 20 HD of outsider to go with their often 20+ character levels as gods do. And you are telling folks to ignore my thoughts on the subject? Grain of salt, indeed. You might want to put that salt back in the shaker.
Here: Basic level read-out for Shar: Rogue10/Shadowdancer 10/ Assassin 10 Sorcerer 9/ Shadow Adept 10. That's 49 level! on TOP of her outsider HD. Anyone waht to fight her? I'll lay odds on that battle....
Selune: Wizard 20, Cleric 20/ Bard 9. Another one I wouldn't want to make mad. Don't forget those outsider HD.
Oghma Bard 20/ Wizard 20/ Cleric 5. (Meep!)
And MYSTRA!: Wizard 20/ Loremaster 10/ Archmage 5/ Cleric 20/. 55 levels!!! And 20 OS HD!! I'm going to go hide from her.....
And as Eldacar said, it's not JUST the god you're fighting. It's Magic, Death, Nature, or Justice, or..... Well, you get the idea.
Dalor and anyone else who wants to can go battle gods to their hearts' content- Me, I think I'd rather LIVE. I'm wondering if some of those god-battling PC's are not only nuts, but secretly suicidal.
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 06:08:28
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quote:
Originally posted by boards
It seems to me that the main difference here is how people see the gods. Dalor seems to see them as simply powerful beings who anyone can match, while others (and it is the view pushed by the recent editions) is that gods are a fundamental force of nature that is far above mortal kind. Personally I find the second more interesting, and perhaps those that follow the second view are more interested in the back story of the game?
I'm completely interested in the "back story of the game" as you put it.
I'm not some munchkin psychopath bent on killing off all the gods for crying out loud...but I'll address that more in another post without giving satisfaction further to your obvious intention of saying I'm not a good "role player" or whatever. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 06:16:08
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| I don't think he intended it that way, Dalor. He's just making an observation. Those who enjoy god-slaying seem to be more action/combat-oriented players, which is quite different from those who like more skill/interaction-based games. Neither one is better than the other, but it certainly seems like you're one of the more "action hero" type players. I'd guess you like a lot of battle in your games, yes? Me, I'm more of a "Scooby-Do" player/DM. I prefer ferreting out mysteries, solving puzzles and working through riddles or learning secrets. It's an altogether different style of play. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 06:32:04
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As Alystra put it correctly...they give gods levels...but why???
I mean, if there is no intention of them being challenged, why stat them out at all?
It would have been better if they stayed away from the idea of Avatars in my opinion, and instead used Godly Servants to fulfill their desires. I mean, I'm frankly FAR MORE afraid of a Solar than I am most of the Avatars of Gods!
I can address several things however:
Domains: Wizards can create MASSIVE pocket dimensions where they can control all the things you describe above...did I mention Massive?
Granting Spells: a Wizard can indeed create a magical item that grants spells to a "worshiper"...its called a Spell Crux, Spell Pool or what have you; and the beneficiary of such would have to carry a token (holy symbol anyone?) to use that power.
Hearing "their name": easily done via a single well worded wish.
Sensing through followers: simple magical items can grant sensory abilities...and even an ability to cast spells via those followers.
Avatars: as an example, Dalor Darden used the simple spell Simulacrum to create MANY usable agents with power similar to his own (but at lower levels of course). Also, anyone ever hear of a swordwoman named Alias?
Immortality: a wizard need not become a Lich or Shade to live forever. There are various Life Drain magics that will give the wizard extended life...and it can be argued easily that Gods simply absorb the life essences of their own petitioners to live forever...sorta sick if you ask me!
Levels: Dalor Darden (1st Edition Stats) Illusionist 15 (or 17...can't remember after this long), Magic User 27, Fighter 17, and Assassin 10. I can't remember precisely the levels as I lost the character long ago...but these are approximate. Remember here that Illusion and Magic User spells are in their own slots and not combined.
Mortals can have levels just like anyone else...which brings me to a special point: shouldn't Gods NOT have levels? I mean we ARE talking about long lived beings here...why give them levels? In 1st Edition the heads of the Pantheons (like Zeus and Odin) shouldn't have had such low levels in ANYTHING.
So they give them levels though...as in there are limits on their power.
You guys aren't seeing my argument, and I am honestly unable for some reason to find the words for what I'm saying. Perhaps this way:
"Gods" in D&D aren't the TRUE Gods...they are only perhaps Guardians/Jailors of mortals; leading them through lives trying to guide them in a direction AWAY from their true potential. Then, if a mortal becomes TOO powerful, they invite them to join their ranks; thus making them Guardians/Jailors too and keeping them within the prison!
Beings like Ao are those that approach REAL positions of authentic Deity...but the likes of Greater Gods don't seem all that great to me. If they have stats...they can be defeated; period.
Overgods (and those that THEY answer to) are the "Real" Gods. They imprison mortals, like the quick fuse burning bombs that they are, inside "The Matrix" and keep them repressed to prevent them from springing forth and evolving into something much more...something that perhaps is feared. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 07:49:43
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Why stat them? Simple. Because players WANTED it. There have always been and probably always WILL BE players and DM's who want to use gods and god-slaying in their games. That's why they were statted. It's the ONLY reason. That does not mean that they are there solely to be challenged- just if someone REALLY wants to go through the trouble of trying.
Why give them levels? Same reason as above. It was necessary to do so to "define" them in game terms for those who wanted to take on that kind of challenge. But that's also why they were given such high levels to begin with. To make it a "challenge". Not impossible by game standards, I suppose, but realistically, how many mortal PC's could ever hold a candle to that? A dozen? You MIGHT find that many if you're REALLY lucky. Otherwise, it's suicide for most PC's. And most PC's should retire long before they get to those levels. The Law of Diminishing Returns kicks in long before they get that high. It just doesn't make much sense to keep playing the same character to that level. It takes too long to gain new levels, and the benefits become less substantial the higher you get.
As for all those abilities- Wizards must use MASSIVE amounts of magic to accomplish even a small portion of those abilities. The power expended by a wizard to create even a small pocket dimension in Planescape was basically enough to wipe him out for weeks. And that was for something the size of a small farm. Not "massive" by any means. I know this, because I've used it in a campaign, and the caster level required to make something the size of a small town was more than almost any character bu an incredibly powerful one could achieve. It's true that some casters could build up a larger "realm" (domains are for spells, lol!) over time, but each expenditure would only increase the size by as much as he made before, and it would take literally centuries to make anything approaching the size of a god's realm.
Immortality is possible for mortals, but most methods require "death". (lichdom, vampirism, ect.) Thus changing the character fundamentally. Not the same thing as godly immortality- which is PART of their fundamental make-up.
Granted spells? Granting spells directly to a faithful's mind is completely different from storing a few spells in an item for others to use. They carry those spells within themselves, not as part of some paraphenalia that can be removed. BIG difference.
Hearing their name/sensing followers. Wizards must used powerful spells to do this even for a short time and wishes must be worded EXTREMELY carefully to avoid pitfalls. Gods don't need this. They do it automatically, AT WILL. And they do it over a much larger area than a mortal could (1 mile per rank of divinity- Mystra could "see" or "smell" up to 18 miles away without even trying. And could communicate with anyone in any language within that distance. She could communicate remotely with anyone within a mile of one of her priests, as well. And she could do all of that AT THE SAME TIME, in different locations across Faerun. No mortal I've read about can split their concentration to do that many things at once. Mortals just aren't built that way. Most mortals (even wizards) can only concentrate on one or two things at any given time, and even then, not fully. Gods can do this in a dozen (as an example) different locations, listening to just as many mortal prayers while contemplating the same number of possible actions to take on just as many situations!
A Simulacrum is not the same thing as an avatar, though I can certainly see how you'd draw the parallel. The difference here, is that each avatar is completely connected at all times to its deity, and essentially acts as an extension of its will. an earthly form to use to interact with the world, and nothing more. And those avatars can exist in multiple places, thus allowing the god to interact with followers in a large range of locations, in different ways, at the same time. A Simulacrum is much more limited. It also does no have the equipment of the original, which an avatar does.
And yes, there are limits on a god's power, because they have a focus on their own portfolio, and can't expend much power for anything else. They are dealing with such large-scale problems and situations that they have little power left over for anything else outside their spheres of influence. That's why there are so many gods. Think of it like each one working on a certain task in a factory (the world in the multi-verse) and each one has his or her own station, where they are expert. But if one moved to a station he had no knowledge of, he would quickly become lost and make mistakes. So they mostly stick to their own tasks. It's what they are best at. We really can't know the limits of their power, either- gods and priests lie, as has been said before, so they may or may not be more (or less) powerful than they let on.
So you don't believe they are real gods. Then why have gods at all? What's you definition of a "true" god? Having followers? Divine power? Domains and Realms? Something else? If you don't like the fact that gods have stats, throw out the stats! Make the gods more distant and unknowable! I already mentioned that the gods in my campaigns HAVE no stats. They are in fact true gods, with no "over-god" above them at all. I used the model of Greek mythological cosmology to create mine. There is a Mother and Father of the gods (Like Cronus and Rhea) and all the other gods are their children. But they are not "over" the rest in more than age and reverence. Earth Mother and Sky Father, with all the other gods born from and sworn to them. Faerun may seem different, but I suspect that Ed would say the gods of the Realms are "real" gods, too- even if they DO lie. And he didn't create Ao, others did. So we really don't know anything for certain about Ao's true status. He might simply be the "leader" of the gods.
You seem to feel that gods are not much more than powerful beings who are afraid of mortals for some reason. It seems more like they are protectors and guides than jailers, though. Far from turning them away from their true potential, most gods seem eager to guide mortals into being all that they can, and the best they can be, in whatever they do. That doesn't sound much like a prison to me. School would be a more apt term, I think. The teach and lead, in hopes that mortals will follow their example and draw closer to the divine "perfection" of their mortal selves.
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 08:07:14
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Oh man...this has been fun.
In all seriousness; I've been running a game now since about 1997...with the last few years never having rolled a d20 or any other dice at all.
I LOVE story and back ground...and combat was rarely part of our game when we did play face to face once a week. Combat aplenty sure, but "aplenty" for our tastes.
I'm more of a story kinda guy. I love the FEEL of what it is to play the role of a character...something I always used to enjoy when I was doing plays and such in highschool and for a little while after. Most DMs, when they get my character background, ask me to give them something to "sum it up" so that they don't have to read the 5k to 10k history. 
My purpose of this thread was originally to simply talk about why there has been a widening gap in Mortal vs. Godly power...but it quickly went back to Mortal vs Gods in combat; for that I should take the blame.
My own game world, the World of Aerk, is all about depth and history. There, the Gods CAN be challenged because in fact they aren't true gods at all. None of them possess the power to create worlds...they are more like the Gods of the Hyborian World. I loved Howard's Hyboria and Lovecraft's Mythos. I grew up on that and it is a cornerstone in my own gaming.
So yes, I think "Gods" should be able to be challenged by mortals...hells, Conan did it on a regular basis! However, the Gods he fought were little more than unique demons and such...and to me, the Good and Evil gods of most campaign worlds STARTED that way; but over time they have become so much more and more...while mortals have had a lessened ability (such that a Fighter 10/Wizard 10 in 1st Edition AD&D would be a Fighter 5/Wizard 10 in 3.x).
That is the real crux of my intent...so what do you all think about that? Why is it that way? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 08:21:22
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| I don't think that mortals have become less powerful in the game. That power is just expressed differently in later editions, which results in a seeming reduction in levels. But they still have pretty much the same abilities- they just don't have to be as high to get them. Don't know about 4th, as I've played only one time and never again. (Hated what it did to my half-drag pali/bard!) A PC in 3rd can do more at lower levels than the same one in 2nd. If anything, they seem to have gotten MORE powerful. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 17:51:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I don't think that mortals have become less powerful in the game. That power is just expressed differently in later editions, which results in a seeming reduction in levels. But they still have pretty much the same abilities- they just don't have to be as high to get them. Don't know about 4th, as I've played only one time and never again. (Hated what it did to my half-drag pali/bard!) A PC in 3rd can do more at lower levels than the same one in 2nd. If anything, they seem to have gotten MORE powerful.
More powerful?
So you are saying a Cleric 10/Wizard 12 that is changed to a Cleric 5/Wizard 12 is more powerful? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 18:34:32
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Its a matter of perspective.
If you think of it in terms of 'fire-power', then yes, 4e PCs are more powerful. All classes can heal themselves, and Mages don't run out of magic anymore. That alone is very empowering.
Of course, many groups simply did the "we rested for 8 hours, now what?" during play, which achieved (at least partially) the same results.
However - and this is coming form someone who hasn't played 4e yet - it seems to me that the characters are less... dynamic. At least far less so then in 3e (which put too much of the game into player's hands, IMHO). Sure, you can Magic-Missile until the end of time, but you can't do all the other fun stuff... at least not during combat.
So, if you (theoretically) pit a 1e/2e/3e mage against a 4e one, the OE (old Edition) mage would have the advantage at first, because he has a greater variety of things he can do. However, if the he made bad decisions and allowed the combat to take too long, eventually the 4th edition mage would overpower him.
Its like the difference between a finesse boxer, and a 'Raging Bull'. If the mechanic (finesse boxer) manages to stay out of the way of the brute, he will win. The brute will tire and the match will be over (which is why Mike Tyson was so damn successful - he knocked-out FAR better boxers early-on).
In many ways, 4e mages are like specialists (RW) - they do only a couple of things, but they do them REALLY well. The OE Mage was like the 'Swiss army Knife' of wizardry.
If you are having trouble figuring out which side I am.... GOOD. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Mar 2011 21:48:28 |
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The Diminishing of Mortal Power
