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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4266 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 00:06:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Dalor — Are you saying the gods are unkillable in later editions because high-level mortals were nerfed?
I'll admit I'm not entirely clear about what position you're trying to argue.
Well....
quote:
What ever happened to the fantasy literature that showed "mere mortals" as being able to challenge the power of the divine?
I mean, I know it is there; but why are so many convinced that Mortals can't outstrip even the power of the Gods?
As the editions of D&D have come and gone, it has been a continuing trend that the divine can't be challenged in power...and mortals have become increasingly less powerful against the gods; to the point of nearly being powerless!
"In the beginning" mortal wizards (and few others) could literally amass enough power to chain the Lords of Hell and throw open the Gates of Heaven to challenge the Gods to combat.
Evil Wizards, such as Tam and others could actually hope to stand against a God in magical battle and hold their own; even if they couldn't actually permanently destroy a God. The earliest incarnation of D&D that I like to use (1st Edition Advanced Dungeons and Dragons) never intended for Gods to simply be the highest tier of monster to be defeated; but it DID intend for a party of Heroic folks to be able to challenge a God that was stepping through a Gate and stuff him back in his home plane!
Rarely have I seen anyone actually play a character to the dizzying heights of level and power (legitimately...though my idea of ligit may be different I suppose) that would allow such to happen; but often the likes of Bigby, Mordenkainen and such were required to do so early on in the game.
So why are so many thinking that the Gods should be without the ability to be defeated by mortals? To me, it stands to reason that Gods should be able to not only be DEFEATED, but in some cases even chained by a mortal!
In Dragonlance, we see the Kingpriest of Istar getting ready to chain ALL THE GODS to do his bidding; and to prevent it the Gods had to invoke a cataclysm. Later, Raistlin nearly succeeds again.
In the Forgotten Realms we see that the Imaskari could even deny the presence of the Gods of their slaves into the Forgotten Realms...that is a major defeat if you ask me!
Also in the Realms, before Azuth was even a God, he defeated Savras and chained him into an artifact.
There are many other examples...but I won't blather on any longer.
The gist is this: why shouldn't mortals be able to challenge Gods? Is it a purely mechanical reason of game mechanics...or is it some fear people have that if divinity can be challenged by mortality then something horrible is wrong?
What exactly?
I even posted in my original post that I thought mortals should be able to CHALLENGE the Gods...not so much destroy them.
Why can't that be done now? In previous editions it was possible to do because, while it took a great deal of power to kill a god (and often couldn't be done), it wasn't unthinkable to defeat one. Such a defeat could result in the God being confined to its home plane for a while and such as that.
Why don't we see that any longer? The ability to do it...WITHOUT the help of Super-Man/Another God jumping in to help. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 01:09:29
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I assume by "now" you actually mean "4E"?
If so, I think I'll stick with something I've said before: 4E happens to be based on older D&D but it's an entirely different game with different rules. Only the Wizbro brand managers and game designers really know why godslaying is now categorically off limits ... I can speculate that (now the most gross transitions are all in the past) Wizbro wishes to keep the official D&D settings stable, predictable, and "balanced"; in large part that means the exalted roster needs to remain constant.
There are times when I find FR fiction very tiring: too many gods, too many Chosens and other über-minster sorts of NPCs (who for most practical purposes might as well just be unkillable avatars), I sometimes wonder if the gods are so grasping and petty simply because there's hardly any population of "normal" mortals left to worship them. In a way, I really hope 4E is attempting to distance the D&D settings from constant godly micromanagement and continue writing about the actual people instead. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 19:46:51
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| Are you asking why we don't see it in FICTION anymore? Well, the answer to that is two-fold. the first part is simple- we still DO see it. Gods are still very active in Faerun. (WotSQ/LP series(s) most recently.) the second part is becasue it't been done. TO DEATH. (Pardon the pun.) Mortals challenging gods has been done so often in fantasy that it's a trope of its own. huma/Tahkisis, Cyric/Faerun's gods, etc.... There are so many cases of this that readers are probably getting tired of it. who needs to read another tale of mortals battling gods? It's even done in video games, as others have pointed out. I think that says something about how common a theme it is. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4266 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 20:52:32
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Yes, now in 4e.
No, not in novels...but in the game. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4266 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 21:26:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I'd expect it to be for the reasons Arik gave. They want to keep the cosmology balanced and stable. ToT and Spellplague have done enough already, haven't they?
I'll concede that point for sure.  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2011 : 22:23:57
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Interestingly, I was reading some of the OD&D Immortals rules, and it seems in the original game (NOT 1e), deities were immortals... but not really 'gods'. THE gods were something 'beyond' mortal ken. 'Deities' (Immortals) were like the 'farm team' for the real gods.
Then last night I was reading something in Tall Tales of the Wee Folk, for converting the material therein to AD&D. It says "Immortals: These are the equivalent to the AD&D game's deities. Immortals often are NPCs reached 36th level and completed a heroic quest of some sort."
So, an official rules booklet states that 'immortals are deities' (and vice-versa), and the Immortals rules for that game state the the immortals were ALL mortals at one time, who aspired to godhood.
By the same token, the 'Elder (real) Gods' aspire to something beyond them - they know it exists, but they have no idea what it is.
Now, using all of that, along with MUCH FR canon, we know that mortals CAN challenge the gods, and either kill them or join their ranks. According to OD&D, they need some sort of 'sponsor', but that's pretty much how it worked in FR lore as well (we have several canon instances of that, including Velsharoon, Savras, The Red Knight, etc).
So what we can surmise from all of that is not only is it possible for mortals to challenge gods, but its expected - its the way the system was set-up to work! "Survival of the fittest" - Darwin at his finest. What did Ao do when 'mere mortals' challenged gods? He made two of them deities, and later allowed a third to follow suit. That didn't seem like anything out-of-the-ordinary - quite the contrary, actually, considering how three of those dead deities got their own godhood.
And in Greek mythology, gods often 'elevated' mortals to higher rank, although to achieve the highest honors (true godhood?) one had to go to the Pantheonic Leader (which is why I have added a category BETWEEN Greater-god and Over-power: the High God - DvR 21-25). High Gods have complete control over the deities within their pantheon, and High Gods must still answer to an over-power.
A simple fix, but one that was really needed. It gets rid of a lot of weirdness (like what the heck Maztica, Fate, and the Celestial Emperor all are). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Mar 2011 22:36:29 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 01:34:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Mortals challenging gods has been done so often in fantasy that it's a trope of its own.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DidYouJustPunchOutCthulhu
Indeed it is. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 03:16:23
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Many human cultures believed people (or at least their people) were ultimately descended from deities, every human alive was thought to carry some miniscule trace of divine blood ... many faiths would teach that this divinity is the vital spark of life itself and present to some extent in all living things, permeating the world/universe instead of transcending it.
Then again, classic Greek mythology was full of deities fornicating indiscriminately; noble (and monstrous) demigod offspring was rather commonplace. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 19 Mar 2011 03:20:25 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 04:10:13
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It's interesting that some number of these Greek demigods (mostly human, some monstrous) managed to eventually ascend to full godhood within the Olympic pantheon ... without challenging, killing, or replacing any existing deities. Even monotheistic religions allow for demi-deity creatures (such as nephilim and devas) to ascend through divine ranks, though naturally always a lesser station completely subservient to the will of the true deity.
Classic mythologies seem to assume the greatest heroes always possess blood of the gods, and further assume that mundane mortal men (without divine bloodlines) cannot aspire to challenge the gods with any success. This might be due to our records having been passed to us through centuries of monotheistic learning. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 04:32:09
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I tend to think it has more to do with the idea that only someone with the blood of a god could ever hope to sit on equal footing with one. Those of Greek myths were always granted divinity after a lifetime of heroic deeds that no ordinary mortal could accomplish (cleaning out a stable fouled by decades of filth in a day, by re-routing a river, for instance) and always at the behest of the head of the pantheon, for having proven their worth and "right" to do so.
Monotheistic religions do not seem to allow for mortals to transcend this barrier at all, save for those who are living incarnations of a god or great prophets who have greater wisdom than other mortals. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4266 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 07:40:08
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| I tend to think that "Gods are All Powerful" because the religious leaders want to keep people in line...if they can't be the King, they can be the voice of something higher than the king. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 08:11:52
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| It's important to note that in D&D worlds the Gods Are Very Powerful and their existence is undeniably manifest. From the perspective of most mortals the distinction is only academic; the gods most certainly outrank a mere king or emperor. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 19 Mar 2011 08:13:36 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 08:42:44
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Tell that to the Emperor of Imaskar. 
The Jade emperor (Shou Lung) is descended from the Celestial Emperor himself, supposedly.
However, in eastern (FR) religion it is fairly common for mortals to ascend to godhood (the Boddas, the Padhrasattvas, the nine immortals, the travelers, etc). In fact, most non-human beings are part of the celestial court and have some smidgeon of divinity attached to them. Since inter-breeding is as common in the east as it is in Faerûn, there are usually a few people with some 'divine spark' in every village, and Oriental demons - Oni - are part of the bureaucracy as well, so a demon-blooded person would be considered part of the Kami (spirit) world, and have just as much chance to ascend, if not more so.
I think we are over-looking one very important fact in this discussion - PCs, just like novel characters, are HEROES, and not like 'normal folk'. There is supposed to be something special about them. So, while you may argue that the average person can't tackle a god, I would agree with you, but heroes are not average people (and perhaps all PCs has some divine/fiendish/outsider blood in them - some minute amount diluted by a hundred generations).
So I think the argument shouldn't be 'can mortals defeat gods', but rather, 'can heroes defeat gods'. And in every case, in literature, mythology, and D&D, heroes can in fact kill gods (because they are HEROES, of course).
I could get into a rather esoteric tangent about hero-worship, and how the heroes themselves might be 'getting divine' by osmosis. If a hero becomes famous enough, and everyone practically worships him, is that not a prerequisite for ascension? Maybe at a certain point, the hero isn't quite mortal anymore - assume at level 25 they may be approaching DvR 0. This is not unheard of - in the Dark Sun source Dragon Kings there are rules for this. A tyrant of a citytate forces it's populace to worship it, and between levels 20-30 it begins the slow climb to demi-godhood. If that works for tyrants, why not popular heroes? what, precisely, is the difference between reverence and adulation?
I may be cutting hairs, but its plausible. Maybe mortals can kill gods because they are no longer mortals by that point (and the ones that still are, fail miserably).
Kelemvor sort-of became a god this way, IIRC. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Mar 2011 09:02:36 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 09:55:20
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quote:
Markustay — ... the argument shouldn't be 'can mortals defeat gods', but rather, 'can heroes defeat gods' [etc]
Markus scores the win, even when half-awake past 4am.
Agreed, heroes can defeat gods, heroes can become gods, they do it all the time. Agreed also, the "prerequisites" for becoming a god in every D&D edition which published such rules explicitly states the character must be a hero of epic deed and power. Not at all unreasonable when stated in those terms.
Of course, becoming a god and killing a god are still very different things. But neither is impossible for a hero. I wouldn't personally make it as "easy" as it appears to be in D&D fiction. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 19 Mar 2011 09:57:18 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 11:53:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Aye, that it was. Which is why I mentioned that bit. Zeus especially was rather prolific in that respect. As were Posieden and Ares. Heracles was in fact a demi-god of Zeus's get, as was Perseus. Achilles was of Themis, and Alexander was said to be descended from a god.
The Trojan Cycle makes mention of Zeus' fathering of children being specifically aimed towards upcoming wars against the Giants that he would have to fight, and the necessity for a mortal hero (or rather, a hero that wasn't a "full god" at that time) to land the killing blows, because certain creatures could not be slain by an immortal.
So Zeus went around fathering a whole pile of children, though he avoided fathering any on women who were fated to bear children greater than their father (e.g. Thetis). Once he got the one he wanted (Heracles), all the other demigods and heroes of the time were "weighing down" the Earth, and so he manipulated events to bring about the Trojan War and ensure that the heroes would be wiped out.
quote:
I could get into a rather esoteric tangent about hero-worship, and how the heroes themselves might be 'getting divine' by osmosis. If a hero becomes famous enough, and everyone practically worships him, is that not a prerequisite for ascension? Maybe at a certain point, the hero isn't quite mortal anymore - assume at level 25 they may be approaching DvR 0. This is not unheard of - in the Dark Sun source Dragon Kings there are rules for this. A tyrant of a citytate forces it's populace to worship it, and between levels 20-30 it begins the slow climb to demi-godhood. If that works for tyrants, why not popular heroes? what, precisely, is the difference between reverence and adulation?
There is, generally speaking, a difference between mortal, DvR 0 and DvR 1+.
Mortals are mortal. They can be ordinary farmers, or great kings and archmages. They're still mortal.
Divine Rank 0 is meant to represent quasi-deities, or hero-deities, generally those who already have some measure of divine blood in them. Achilles and Heracles from Greek myth. The Seven Sisters (technically, though they don't actually have it in the mechanics of 3.5e D&D) would/should also qualify. There is, however, some innate spark of the divine that all of them carry, a spark you can't just get by being an extremely powerful mortal (though it is arguable that the proper epic magic could conceivably grant DvR 0, there is no in-print one that does so, and you'd have to ad-hoc a few things within your own campaign).
Divine Rank 1 and above is "actual" godhood, obviously. Mortals can jump from nothing to this, as can "DvR 0" individuals.
Dragon Kings of Athas are slightly different. They aren't true gods, as far as I'm aware. There is a ritual by which one can become a Dragon King, and it was outlined for 3rd edition in a Dragon Magazine article somewhere. In short, if you were epic-level (with the necessary feats), had 9th level spells and psionic powers, and performed a ritual, you could trigger a transformation that would turn you into a dragon over the course of ten levels.
Going beyond that would require something else, I believe, unless Athas just allows straight mortal-to-divine conversion by the power of faith and belief (like Planescape).
That "something else" is where the Dragon Ascendant comes in. It's in the 3rd edition Draconomicon, a class for any true dragon who meets certain prereqs (for reference, a Gold Dragon would generally meet them by the time it reaches the "Old" stage). Over the course of twelve levels they gain Divine Rank 0, awakening a divine spark. It's ascribed to the great power dragons already have:
"Easily the most powerful creatures native to the Material Plane, dragons hold a unique position in relation to the powers beyond that plane. Those who become dragon ascendants quest to transcend the limitations of mortal existence, rising above all other dragons to become nothing less than deities themselves. Their progress through the levels of this class represents their advancement toward their ultimate goal, and they become increasingly godlike as they advance."
This does mean that there is a way of getting to DvR 0 (and theoretically further) from mortal status on a pure level-by-level basis. You go up through the first twenty to twenty-five levels as an archmage, and pick up 9th level psionic powers in the process. Then, once you meet the requirements, work out your Dragon King ritual, and perform it. Over your next series of adventures, you max out this class, and then hit the Dragon Ascendant running. By about level 45-50, you'll have DvR 0.
Ascending beyond that is more difficult, since IIRC in FR you need to have Ao approve/rubber-stamp anybody who wants to reach DvR 1+, but presumably having a divine sponsor could take care of that for you, if said sponsor is willing. Pure levels and mortal magic alone won't get you to true godhood, so you'll need an existing deity to support your ascension (though I personally don't see why a deity wouldn't generally agree to your ascension, given that you'd be an incredibly powerful individual who was, I would assume, devoted to your patron deity - having a new divine ally could well be extremely useful). Once that has been accomplished, you expand up the ranks of the divine by spreading your church and gaining more worship.
Interestingly enough, this brings you very close to the equivalent number of levels that the currently-printed deities have themselves, though without the cleric levels that the majority of them have. The only place where you can be stopped outright (rules-wise) is if you can't get support from an existing deity for your ascension to DvR 1.
(As a note, you can in theory skip the Dragon King ritual by doing a straight ritual to turn into a dragon of your choice - rules for such transformations can be found in the Savage Species book - and then following the Dragon Ascendant class as outlined. However, the Savage Species ritual makes you vulnerable to Wish spells and equivalent effects being employed to reverse the ritual and thus throw a wrench in your plans.) |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 12:29:20
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The Dragon King ritual actually existed in 2E, along with a good-aligned cognate to instead transform into an Evangelion, details differed but it's essentially the same as your 3E version, Eldacar. Although perhaps not "true" deities, these ascendants do wield divine powers within their Dark Sun domains; they require worshippers to sustain their power, their relative power waxes and wanes with the number of these worshippers, they have organized faiths, they grant priest spells and abilities, they have avatars, they live forever, they are effectively gods and they certainly behave like gods. No "true" deities exist to oppose them within the Dark Sun setting, nor have any ever intruded from other settings. They may not be older than the universe, but so what? There is no practical difference unless you're a theologician.
Dark Sun is perhaps not the best example, though. It differs from "mainstream" D&D settings in too many ways, even the lowliest inhabitants of Athas possess considerable personal power when measured against those of other worlds; it's not unreasonable for epic-level Athasians to exceed their other-world counterparts as well. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2011 : 02:39:22
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| Also, IIRC, the Dragon-Kings of Athas are not "true" dragons, either. Athas still has those, but the Dragon-Kings are something altogether different. They take on draconic forms, but not those of the standard dragons we are used to. These are more like divine/spirit-dragon forms, with very distinct traits not found in standard "true" dragons. Among these are multiple/translucent/radiant wings, glowing auras, and other peculiar traits that distinguish them from normal dragons. They are more like a dragon-like "being of immense power. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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The Diminishing of Mortal Power
