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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Jul 2008 : 02:04:13
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I'd far rather see work done here on a setting people can enjoy. Namely the Forgotten Realms. Which isn't what Wizards are releasing now.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2008 : 05:51:22
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To be clear, Ed in no way tried to "sell" the 4E Realms to me, or suggested that I "give them a chance". In fact, our exchange on the topic was brief. What he did do was make me realise what wonderful things the Realms has done for me over the years (and he didn't even mean to do that, either!) and helped me with my personal choice on the Realms.
It looks like a some forumites have made their personal choice to distance themselves from the 4E Realms. That's a fair enough call. There were plenty who did it after the ToT. Heck, I can remember a bunch who did it after the "Threat from the Sea" novels came out. The change to 3E jettisoned a few more.
They are no doubt in a happier place now.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Ahwe Yahzhe
Acolyte
Iraq
36 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2008 : 06:25:39
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quote:
Bits and pieces of the post by George Krashos
Everyone will have to make an individual choice re their future involvement in the 4E Realms.
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I love the Realms for many, many reasons and despite what might be 'done' to them, there'll always be something to get me excited, pique my curiousity and make me feverishly dig through 20+ years of FR products.
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Bring it on.
-- George Krashos
Yeah. What he said. Bring it on. As I said earlier, it doesn't matter how bad the 4e Realms are, I just want the two sourcebooks already so I can fast forward 94 years and salvage the Realms I love. I might even like an idea or two in there- maybe even the 50,000 words EG is contributing, for that matter. It's the inconvenience to my new 4e FR campaign that I mind right now...
I want to start a campaign in Moonsea or Impiltur. Well, I just learned that Impiltur has a brand-new coastline and is devastated, thanks to the LFR RPGA info. Who knows what's happened to the Moonsea? We know Zhentil Keep is still around, thanks to one of the upcoming RPGA adventures, but that's about it. Hurry up already with the reboot of the Realms... 
-AY |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2008 : 07:23:02
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| Yeah no kidding. Let's get on with the show already. |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2008 : 17:05:55
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
They are no doubt in a happier place now.
-- George Krashos
You had them all KILLED?! 
That was a bit extreme.... 
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 11:55:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
What I am saying is twofold:
-WotC does not make business or design decisions, on the whole, based on forum feedback. A single email or letter to Customer Service has the same effect on a large company as does an entire fifty-post thread on their message boards.
Following your logic, if WotC does not pay attention to forums discussing their products, and if a letter to the Customer Service department has the same effect as a fifty-post thread then I fail to see the benefit of sending them an E-mail or a letter.
Personally, it surprises me (although it shouldn't, given the recent Joke Festival that we've experienced) that at least one person associated with WotC doesn't monitor a few such forums. It seems to me that this would be a very cheap way of getting customer feedback and doing some good market research. For example, if you post a poll and you get over 100 replies you've got a good percentage figure right there.
It is baffling to me that they don't make use of a free resource.
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
-When articles such as these come out and people are pleased with the result, that is the time to speak up and say "Give me more of this, please."
That's not very pro-active. It also suggests that WotC are issuing random products and hoping to strike it lucky.
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
What I expect is that a number of people will go to the message boards (both here and at WotC) and say "Wow, this is what you folks should have been doing all along! It's a shame I've already decided to spend my money elsewhere. Take care." I expect a handful of emails echoing the same sentiment.
And I expect WotC to respond with an attitude of "Well, if you're spending your money somewhere else, we'll listen to the people that are willing to pay us." Right or wrong in terms of listening to their fanbase, any company is only going to obey the whims of their paying fanbase, and a large number of Realms fans have already decided to walk away from WotC's oversight of the Realms,
I look at my bookcase and I see four shelves filled with Realms products, Dragonlance products and D&D products. Are you seriously telling me that I have to keep buying products in order for my voice to be heard? It sounds like something a heroin dealer would say, 'keep buying my junk and I'll make it better for ya.'
I'm sorry to say but if we keep buying products, especially $E then the sales figures will have the last and biggest say, which is simply "We're shifting stock and hitting targets."
The opinion I have formed is that many people on these forums are fundamentally disgusted at the bad Public Relations and the tactical errors made by WotC. We want them to look at their sales figures and see that their products aren't selling so that they ask "why isn't this selling?" and "How can we improve?"
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
I agree that they've made mistakes in their handling of the Realms. What I'm hoping is that this, and articles like this, will convince people that their Realms are not lost forever.
It seems to me that a divorce is happening. We're saying: "We don't talk any more" and WotC are saying: "you aren't doing what we say." For me, I look at my bookshelves and so long as I keep having access to the children at weekends I'll be OK. You go your way and I'll go mine.
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
that feedback cannot continually be accompanied by declarations of nonparticipation.
My response to this is that having purchased D&D and FR products from AD&D through to V3.5 I have very strongly demonstrated my participation. Football fans stop attending matches when their team keeps losing. Voters don't vote for bad politicians. If you have bad service at a restaurant you don't keep going back, you vote with your feet.
Those are my opinions. They don't represent anyone else's, they just represent those of a customer who sees bad product and refuses to buy it. Now up until $E was announced, I wanted to keep 'participating.' I enjoyed what I was buying. I just don't think that keeping on buying product in the hopes that one of them is worthy of our praise is the right approach.
I apologise if any of my comments come across as a personal insult. I've check this several times to make sure that isn't the case. I'm just trying to get my viewpoint across.
Mod edit: Real-world political reference removed. This is not the place for political commentary. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 01 Aug 2008 14:18:55 |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 13:11:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
He said that they only examined page hits, and it was from those numbers that decisions were made.
So all we have to do is create bots that click the WotC 3.X (and FR) pages quite a lot to get them to "return to the good old days"?
Obviously forum feedback is not representing the feeling a community has for a product because people are more likely to write about stuff they dont like than tell them that they are happy with it (too busy playing to write). This is very obvious for MMORPGs, but it should be the case here too. Counting "page hits" is also kinda nonsense because I could click a page ten times in desperation because I expect something will change for the better and be disappointed every time and come back next day.
The only "real" way to get a fair evaluation (and eventually a better product) is to get someone IMPARTIAL to judge it, describe him the problem(s) and maybe he can find a better way. The designers who have worked to create the "old rules" are prejudiced because they have already formed their own opinion.
For example: I always thought the power level (saturation with magic items) of 3rd edition is the problem which creates the huge problems with Wizards, but too many power hungry kids dont understand that less is more in this case, because keeping the Fighter happy will make him have more fun than watching the Wizard nuke the trash with his Wands of Fireball or whatever. This is what I mean with needing an "impartial judge" who might suggest unusual solutions which the experienced designers wouldnt see. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
Edited by - Pandora on 01 Aug 2008 13:25:00 |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 13:55:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
What I am saying is twofold:
-WotC does not make business or design decisions, on the whole, based on forum feedback. A single email or letter to Customer Service has the same effect on a large company as does an entire fifty-post thread on their message boards.
Following your logic, if WotC does not pay attention to forums discussing their products, and if a letter to the Customer Service department has the same effect as a fifty-post thread then I fail to see the benefit of sending them an E-mail or a letter.
Personally, it surprises me (although it shouldn't, given the recent Joke Festival that we've experienced) that at least one person associated with WotC doesn't monitor a few such forums. It seems to me that this would be a very cheap way of getting customer feedback and doing some good market research. For example, if you post a poll and you get over 100 replies you've got a good percentage figure right there.
It is baffling to me that they don't make use of a free resource.
I think I may have misstated my case slightly. A single letter has an exponentially greater effect on any company’s decision than any thread (however long it turns out to be) on any message board, even its own. A fifty-post thread is nothing compared to fifty letters e-mailed (or, even better, mailed) to a corporations CS department, because that letter can get to someone capable of making a change.
Having worked in customer service jobs before in the past, I can tell you that large, publicly-traded corporations don't make their product or marketing decisions based on message boards. Message boards are useful for allowing individuals to get their frustrations out and work out, in a communal setting, where everyone stands on an issue. They are not a valuable resource (whether or not they are free) for gathering market data, because those individuals--and they community they form via message boards--never represent an accurate sampling of the market as a whole.
I don't mean to say that message boards aren't important or useful to companies. They allow them to gain new ideas, and to measure the reaction of the most dedicated of fans. But when it comes to marketing research, they don't match data gathered from other sources.
[The theory, by the way, is that the anonymity and perceived ease of message board posting means that a single message board poster represents a community of one: himself. A letter writer represents a number of people—anywhere from 5 to 50 or more, depending on the reader and the business involved—who didn’t take the time to write a letter and send it out. Right or wrong, that’s how companies evaluate these things.]
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
-When articles such as these come out and people are pleased with the result, that is the time to speak up and say "Give me more of this, please."
That's not very pro-active. It also suggests that WotC are issuing random products and hoping to strike it lucky.
I can't speak to how WotC makes its product or article choices, because I don't really know. I do know that if a company releases something, and no one directly tells them they've hit a positive trend, they can't respond to that information.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
What I expect is that a number of people will go to the message boards (both here and at WotC) and say "Wow, this is what you folks should have been doing all along! It's a shame I've already decided to spend my money elsewhere. Take care." I expect a handful of emails echoing the same sentiment.
And I expect WotC to respond with an attitude of "Well, if you're spending your money somewhere else, we'll listen to the people that are willing to pay us." Right or wrong in terms of listening to their fanbase, any company is only going to obey the whims of their paying fanbase, and a large number of Realms fans have already decided to walk away from WotC's oversight of the Realms,
I look at my bookcase and I see four shelves filled with Realms products, Dragonlance products and D&D products. Are you seriously telling me that I have to keep buying products in order for my voice to be heard? It sounds like something a heroin dealer would say, 'keep buying my junk and I'll make it better for ya.'
Actually, that's not what I'm saying at all. This thread is not about paying WotC any money, or influencing people to subscribe to DDI, or anything of the sort.
What it is about is letting a company know that you, as a consumer, want. I composed the original post, and have been participating in this thread, because a number of FR fans have decided to sever themselves entirely from WotC's future FR releases. Whatever their motivations or reasoning for doing so (and I don't judge anyone for their personal decision), the net effect of these announcements to any company is going to be a disregard for the opinion of those people.
I don't work for WotC. I can't point to Candlekeep and say to them "look at how many people we're driving away." What I can do is encourage folks at Candlekeep to stand up, as customers, and tell WotC what they want. FR fans have more power in this situation than they realize. But that power comes from the ability to directly tell WotC the kinds of products that they would like to see, and then back up that declaration by product purchases.
Gamers are a hard lot to please. And FR fans have been approaching their consternation with the way WotC is approaching 4E’s marketing and FR’s coverage the way that gamers often do: by talking to other gamers, and declaring their non-participation in the upcoming releases. Some people have essentially turned into protesters.
There is a difference between a customer and a protester.
I am all for people withholding money from a company that doesn’t provide the product or serve that they ask for. A company that doesn’t earn your money doesn’t deserve your money.
quote:
I'm sorry to say but if we keep buying products, especially $E then the sales figures will have the last and biggest say, which is simply "We're shifting stock and hitting targets."
Again, I’m not saying “buy 4E” or “subscribe to DDI.” I’m saying that if you won’t, tell WotC why you won’t.quote:
The opinion I have formed is that many people on these forums are fundamentally disgusted at the bad Public Relations and the tactical errors made by WotC. We want them to look at their sales figures and see that their products aren't selling so that they ask "why isn't this selling?" and "How can we improve?"
If I can be perfectly honest, that’s not what will happen.
To put the game itself aside for a moment 4E’s marketing has not been what anyone would call spectacular.
But WotC is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Hasbro. You know, the folks that own Transformers and G.I. Joe and Scrabble and Mr. Potato Head and the number 73. A failed product line is not going to be improved by a company that large. It’s going to be dumped.
And that’s the real fear I have. Not that FR4E will succeed, but that it and DDI will fail so miserably that the only support we will see past year’s end will be a smattering of articles and a few novels. Once DDI is in full swing, there will be no way of tracking numbers to see which people are subscribing in the hopes of FR content, and if so, what kind. That’s why direct communication with the company is so important.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
I agree that they've made mistakes in their handling of the Realms. What I'm hoping is that this, and articles like this, will convince people that their Realms are not lost forever.
It seems to me that a divorce is happening. We're saying: "We don't talk any more" and WotC are saying: "you aren't doing what we say." For me, I look at my bookshelves and so long as I keep having access to the children at weekends I'll be OK. You go your way and I'll go mine.
It does seem something like a divorce. It seems like fans aren’t willing to say “I’m willing to stick around, but here’s what I need from you.” And it seems like WotC isn’t willing to say “what can I do to keep us together?”
What I hear in those voices is fans saying to one another, “I’m leaving, and no matter what they do, it will be too little and too late. The betrayal is unforgivable.” If FR fans feel like WotC can't win them back, then that's an individual decision for them to make. What I hear from WotC, though, is “if that’s how you feel, I’ll just find someone new.” And they mean it. Alienating FR fans isn't something they intended to do, but if that winds up happening, they have the ability to find a new market by making FR into something their general D&D audience will like. We don't have the ability to wrest FR from their hands, and, lacking that ability, I think it's in everyone's best interests to tell WotC what we want out of the Realms before they look at the numbers and start making even more changes we might not like.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
that feedback cannot continually be accompanied by declarations of nonparticipation.
My response to this is that having purchased D&D and FR products from AD&D through to V3.5 I have very strongly demonstrated my participation. Football fans stop attending matches when their team keeps losing. Voters don't vote for bad politicians (George W Bush excepted). If you have bad service at a restaurant you don't keep going back, you vote with your feet.
Those are my opinions. They don't represent anyone else's, they just represent those of a customer who sees bad product and refuses to buy it. Now up until $E was announced, I wanted to keep 'participating.' I enjoyed what I was buying. I just don't think that keeping on buying product in the hopes that one of them is worthy of our praise is the right approach.
I don’t expect or want anyone to buy products that they don’t want or need, or that they feel aren’t worth the money. I just want those folks to tell the company that owns FR, so that they can make products worth buying.
quote:
I apologise if any of my comments come across as a personal insult. I've check this several times to make sure that isn't the case. I'm just trying to get my viewpoint across.
I am not insulted at all. I simply feel that my comments are being misread or misinterpreted as a call for FR fans to unconditionally support WotC in its current plans. They couldn’t be any less so.
My initial point was that WotC is a company. They’re going to behave like a company. They have a presence at Gen Con and D&D XPerience, but those aren’t the places where upper-level decisions (like the level of print support for FR) get made. They take feedback through customer service channels for a reason; that’s how they learn which customers are willing to take the time and contact the company directly and express their concerns in a manner that they’re willing to accept.
The time spent composing a public post on a message board about how upset you are about the changes to FR is, I maintain, better spent writing a letter or an email to Wizards of the Coast. It’s incredibly easy for someone to see a single post in a long, coherent thread and disregard the entire thing; it is impossible, given sufficient volume, for any company to ignore the letters of fans that tell them they’re pursuing the wrong course.
I don’t think that anyone should spend money they’re not prepared to spend. But all of us here at Candlekeep care enough about the Realms to bother talking about it with one another. The time I’ve spent writing this one post (and, I’m sure, the time it took for you to write the post to which I’m responding) is more than enough time to write a reasoned letter to Wizards of the Coast telling them exactly what you think is wrong about their current plan and what you hope they’ll do to change it in order to regain your trust and earn your money again.
Is there a region you’d like covered? Say so. Do you enjoy reading about the various religions and their tenets? Tell them. Is there a particular author you want to have the opportunity to write more stuff? Let them know. Tell them whether you want lore or game material, and how you’d like it mixed.
WotC isn’t going to ask “What can we do to keep your business?” All that I’m proposing is that fans of the Forgotten Realms tell them “You are in danger of losing my business, and here is what you can do to keep it.” That’s really the only message anyone can expect them to listen to.
The page for Wizards Customer Service is here. Their mailing address is:
Wizards of the Coast
Attn Customer Service
PO Box 707
Renton, WA 98057-0707
An experiment, for anyone still reading this thread (or this interminable post of mine):
The next time you want to say something about the 4E Realms—whether good or bad, whether about an excerpt or a preview or a Dragon article or just based on general product line information—don’t say it here, at least not at first. Type it in a word processing document, and rather than posting it to the keep, word it as a letter to Wizards. Be polite, be direct, and be honest about what you feel. If something has come out to make you less-enthusiastic about their plans, tell them. If something releases and you want to see more of it, tell them that, too. If you’re generally upset about the need for a DDI subscription to get FR information, or the possibility of FR being watered down to fit a more general D&D audience, or that Elminster’s going to get another haircut, tell Wizards of the Coast.
There are 30 unique posters in this thread as of this posting. From 8 different countries. I can’t overstate the impact that 30 letters, written and mailed, on the same topic can have on a company, even one so large as Wizards of the Coast; seeing a postmark from Norway or Germany or Australia or the UK, all on the same issue, would have an effect, even if one not so large as we’d hope.
Writing a message board post is more cathartic and community oriented, but in a business sense, garners less response than a single letter to the write department. For the same effort as it takes to post here, I think that people would want to see their very legitimate complaints bear some fruit. |
Edited by - Garen Thal on 01 Aug 2008 13:59:09 |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 14:23:59
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Firstly, thank you for such a long and considerate response.
Reading through your response caused me to think of an idea. What if we either had a petition or a standard letter that folks could print out, sign and post to WotC of their own accord? I'm associated with a campaign called BioGems (http://www.savebiogems.org/). Their basic principle is to generate public awareness about ecological and conservation issues.
In this case, would a standard letter that we all here could individually print off, sign and send, or a standard E-mail text that we could paste into an E-mail help? |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
Edited by - Kiaransalyn on 01 Aug 2008 14:25:12 |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 15:37:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
Firstly, thank you for such a long and considerate response.
Reading through your response caused me to think of an idea. What if we either had a petition or a standard letter that folks could print out, sign and post to WotC of their own accord? I'm associated with a campaign called BioGems (http://www.savebiogems.org/). Their basic principle is to generate public awareness about ecological and conservation issues.
In this case, would a standard letter that we all here could individually print off, sign and send, or a standard E-mail text that we could paste into an E-mail help?
I wouldn't recommend a petition. It takes less than a minute to sign a petition, and I've never seen anyone take an online petition seriously except for the people signing it.
Some form of sample text might be useful, but would likely be too generic to be used as a standardized or form letter. It would help to show people that there is a way to express concerns to WotC without becoming accusatory or confrontational, but each fan of the Realms as his or her own concerns and preferences, and (personally) I find that being able to see a trend in those expressions is more helpful than reading the same letter over and over.
The impact of a letter to a company derives directly from the care and time taken to craft that letter. I have no doubt that the members of Candlekeep care greatly about the future of the Realms; they state it in no uncertain terms every day. The time taken to write a one-page letter is about the same time it takes to write a moderate-sized post.
If someone is willing to write a sample letter, they should do so; being a would-be author for WotC puts me into the class of folks that shouldn't be telling people what to say to the company. I will, however, give some points to touch on:
-Remain polite. I know some people are personally hurt by the current direction, but try to avoid an accusatory tone or any name-calling.
-Make it clear from the start that you're writing about FR and your concerns about the setting's coverage and your ability to continue participating in the setting. Don't wait until the end of your letterto let WotC know that you might be considering whatever it is you'll be deciding to do (DDI non-subscriber, cease buying D&D products, whatever).
-Tell them what you've liked. Make it clear the kinds of products or enhancements they've released that are similar to what you'd like to see.
-Tell them what you don't like. Avoid making too many references here to changes that aren't up for consideration (for example, the introduction of Tymanther, the killing of Mystra, or the advancement of the timeline). Letters should focus on those things that you believe still have the opportunity to be decided, like the amount of print coverage or the areas and focus of concern in Dragon and other DDI articles.
-Tell them what you want to see, but haven't. Again, regions, races, religions, lore/crunch ration--these are the sorts of things you need to tell WotC you want. If you want to see a sourcebook on Shadowdale, you should say so. It's counterproductive to discuss things that aren't up for debate (timeline, Mystra, changing back to 3E)
-Tell them what you plan to do. If you've already decided not to purchase any 4E materials, tell them why. If an action by WotC might win you back, let them know what it is. If you're not subscribing to DDI, but would gladly continue to purchase sourcebooks of type X, Y or Z, let WotC know. If a particular kind of content might convince you to give DDI a chance, let them know that, too.
Obviously, these are just guidelines. I don't want to tell anyone what to say to WotC. I do think the manner in which it's said, though, might help to get the writer's point across. |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 16:36:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
-Remain polite.
-[b]Make it clear from
-[b]Tell them what you've liked.
The rest snipped for brevity
Excellent post Garen and some well reasoned arguments throughout this thread.
I too agree with what Garen has said, re letters - anyone can email or post to a forum, but when you get a letter sent to you, it has a larger effect. I too have worked in customer service and a letter does make a difference.
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 16:51:58
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Unfortunately Garen Thal, the things that I really hate about 4eFR are precisely those things that are not open to debate; timeline, Mystra, Chosen, Gods debacle and Spellplague. These decisions that are written in stone are the reasons I want nothing further to do with 4eFR. As there is then no chance of WotC keeping me as a customer, there is no point writing to them.
WotC has already made the decision not to keep people like me as customers; the only way I can influence them is with my wallet and that is what I shall be doing. If WotC has alienated so much of its customer base that the FR will be put in jeopardy (and as they are only intending to produce another book and an adventure we won't be losing much anyway), then perhaps it would be better if Hasbro sold FR to another company that would take more care of the brand. |
Edited by - arry on 01 Aug 2008 16:56:54 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 17:10:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
I wouldn't recommend a petition. It takes less than a minute to sign a petition, and I've never seen anyone take an online petition seriously except for the people signing it.
And there are computer programs that can generate fake signatures.
Garen, thanks for the advice. Perhaps I will write a letter. However, like some here many of the things I dislike about the 4E Realms "aren't up for debate". |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 01 Aug 2008 17:30:22 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 17:22:24
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I should probably write a letter anyway.
Depending on their focus, such letters might be more credible, at this point, after the FRCG has come out. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 19:09:18
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As regards generic letters, don't organisations like Amnesty use them. I know with my own experience of BioGems that standard letters are used and that they work very well. I've also seen them used to influence UK parliamentary debate.
The main point we want to get across is that there is a sizeable number of loyal customers who do not feel that they wish to continue purchasing FR products because of recent decisions which they disagree with. They have for a great number of years been good customers of WotC and its predecessor. Their enjoyment of the product has extended over a great number of years. However, recent changes are felt by said people to be excessive and exceedingly counter to the spirit of the Realms. In the first instance, a debate should be undertaken to address issues and to correct mistakes. (Hmm, that's turned into a semi-letter already.)
As for waiting for FRCG to come out. Wouldn't that be too late? |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
Edited by - Kiaransalyn on 01 Aug 2008 19:10:24 |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 19:18:45
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| As the FRCG is due out in August it's already been written and is in the printing/distribution chain. Nothing we say can alter the FRCG one iota. It does make sense to look at the book and complain about specifics. |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
757 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2008 : 17:40:17
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| Agreed. Since much of what a broad base of us here dislike is exactly what is not up for debate anymore -- and since both FR products are probably already finalised and ready for printing and distribution -- writing our letters after an evaluation would probably be a better idea. That way we will also be able to write about exactly what was changed, not about rumours and hysteria that we may have let ourselves be influenced by up to now. I am sure most of us can even find a way of doing our evaluation without necessarily laying out money to do so. We can therefore still vote with our wallets if need be. |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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Edited by - Kyrene on 02 Aug 2008 17:41:51 |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2008 : 10:26:11
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| I guess so close to publication date there is nothing we can say that will change the book. Since I doubt many of us will buy it there doesn't seem much chance that we can find specifics to complain about. Maybe the Realms really are doomed. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2008 : 17:10:46
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I'm unsure about doomed, Kiaransalyn, but I definitely see it as inexorably changed!
Garen, my thanks for getting together the contact information. I'll work on a letter regarding the released content and finish it up after viewing the 4E FRCS. Such a letter should be nothing if not cathartic.... |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2008 : 17:11:05
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| Not at my gaming table. The (4E) Realms are as strong as ever. |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2008 : 18:14:07
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As of right now, I have plans to start a 4e campaign when the FRCG comes out, but a lot is riding on just how good (or bad) that book is.
From looking at the maps posted with the excerpts, I'm really not feeling too good about the Realms geography ATM. The excerpts themselves I can work with - they are bit too light for my tastes, but I can build off of them and create something decent.
I won't go anywhere near Kry... Tymanther.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Aug 2008 18:14:42 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2008 : 00:10:21
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| Tymanther is one of the new elements I'm more likely to use, if it can be easily placed on a world of its own. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2008 : 00:48:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Tymanther is one of the new elements I'm more likely to use, if it can be easily placed on a world of its own.
I actually like the idea of Tymanther, save for two bits: the race should be called something other than dragonborn, and I hate the way the nation was simply transplanted in. My first idea for bringing in the dragonborn race would have been to have them somehow related to the saurials, though they could also easily be something the sarrukh cooked up. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2008 : 00:51:35
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| I think Faerûn already has about as many lizardlike/dragonlike humanoids as it needs, but there's room for many more in the multiverse. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2008 : 17:38:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
The main point we want to get across is that there is a sizeable number of loyal customers who do not feel that they wish to continue purchasing FR products because of recent decisions which they disagree with. They have for a great number of years been good customers of WotC and its predecessor. Their enjoyment of the product has extended over a great number of years. However, recent changes are felt by said people to be excessive and exceedingly counter to the spirit of the Realms. In the first instance, a debate should be undertaken to address issues and to correct mistakes. (Hmm, that's turned into a semi-letter already.)
I was thinking--if it's really true that a letter from a person will be taken to represent more than just one person, does it really do any harm to discuss those things that "aren't debatable", if only in the hopes that it might give WotC pause the next time they think about implementing radical changes to the setting? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 04 Aug 2008 17:39:11 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2008 : 17:40:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Tymanther is one of the new elements I'm more likely to use, if it can be easily placed on a world of its own.
Agreed. Same goes for other elements I could probably cherry-pick out. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2008 : 19:17:56
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quote:
Originally posted by monknwildcat
I'm unsure about doomed, Kiaransalyn, but I definitely see it as inexorably changed!
I am by nature a pessimist but that last post did have a touch of melodrama about it.
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I was thinking--if it's really true that a letter from a person will be taken to represent more than just one person, does it really do any harm to discuss those things that "aren't debatable", if only in the hopes that it might give WotC pause the next time they think about implementing radical changes to the setting?
I guess we can raise as many issues as we see necessary. Whether it has an effect or not we can't say. However, if we say nothing then no-one at WotC will know. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2008 : 21:12:26
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Kia: NP. I'm usually a pessimist/realist, so thanks for the opportunity to switch roles.
RF: I feel citing the unalterable changes that displeased consumers is required, especially if professional and constructive. Otherwise it's impossible to constructively explain any sense of broken trust for WOTC's artistic custodianship of the Realms.
I game as fuel for my imagination, akin to appreciating and creating art, more than loyalty to any brand or mechanics or setting. When the company I allow primary stewardship of my imagination's resources and trust to produce product I can comfortably puchase based on brand alone produces subpar material, wrecks havoc with and disdains the material I enjoyed, and monthly fails to fulfill promised aspects of change that I might enjoy (like DDI), there's lots of broken trust.
The preferred artists of my imagination remain around the gaming industry, most of those at WOTC as novelists, but the company and brand would have to regain my trust for me to consider their gaming material or future novels by unfamilar authors. A positive first step would be fulfilling the promise of DDI.
How can that be explained without referencing the unchangeable elements of the 4E FR? |
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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2008 : 21:25:19
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Just read MT's post to to the Gleemax thread, with the DDI dude's passing.  |
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2008 : 16:10:52
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Well, I sure as heck ain't making any of the 4th ed changes in my realms  . Hells, even Walkerninja doesn't plan on using 4ed Realms, and he actually seems to like 4th ed. |
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
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FR 4E: Garen Speaks
