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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 02:07:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Ahwe Yahzhe
I guess my point is that Candlekeep is the repository run by FR fans who help create the Realms themselves. We should stop getting quite so hung up on the "canon" WOTC does or doesn't produce, and get to work rebuilding and sharing the Realms from whatever pieces are available.
I'm not hung up on canon anymore. That said, reading lore and stories about the 14th century Realms brought me a lot of joy over the years. The only way I'll see more of that is through Ed's answers and maybe novels set in the past (who knows if any will actually be published, after Ed's upcoming Knights novel?). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 21 Jul 2008 02:09:48 |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 02:34:50
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Chin up Brian, you are not alone.
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
You know where you're going to find *me* 10 years from now? Right here on Candlekeep.com reading posts about how crappy 6th edition is and how great the 5th edition sourcebook were. Some of you may be ready to abandon the Realms (as is certainly your right) but I'm in this for the long haul.
QFT, both parts.
I never thought I'd make a good Dungeon Master, much less a good Realms Dungeon Master, but my players keep coming back every week for another dose of what I have to offer up.
So long as the Realms allows me to do that, I won't quit it.
I also know the deep and rich history of the setting hasn't suddenly been erased simply because the timeline has moved up. It's still there and I sure as hell plan to utilize and enjoy every bit of it.
I play the Realms to have fun. I'm going to support the Realms so long as it lets me do that.
My letter to WotC is almost done as well. |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
Edited by - Sanishiver on 21 Jul 2008 02:40:45 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 03:13:54
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You know, I don't understand this attitude of "if you don't like the current version of the setting, play in a different timeframe".
Yes, we can game in any timeframe we want. And we all understand that.
What's being ignored everytime someone says this is the fact that a lot of people like buying new products, and they like seeing the setting go into new and interesting places. And for many people, this doesn't include nuking everything.
For many of us, it is quite appealing to grab a new sourcebook and see how favored areas or characters have developed.
Not only that, but it's also like what Ed says. He has commented, more than once, that an advantage of having sold his setting is that it can now surprise him. Not sticking to the current timeline, however, means the setting can no longer offer any surprises.
I want to stick with the Realms. I want to keep buying stuff. But I don't want the Sellplague, so I'm SOL.
With the Sellplague, WotC is forcing something unpalatable on many of us. That means it's either swallow something we can't stand, or no longer support it (and by support, I mean continuing buying new product).
I guess what I object most to is the fact that I no longer feel I have a choice about whether or not to progress with the setting, and to keep enjoying current products. I know it's all my own preferences, but it doesn't change the fact that I abhor the Sellplague so much that it is now tainting my enjoyment of anything FR. Anything new from here on out is going to be tainted by it.
It's like someone is mixing liver into all of my food, now. It doesn't matter if it's something I loved or loathed before -- now it's got the taste of liver. And because I can't stand liver, none of my favorite foods will ever be as enjoyable. That's what the Sellplague and the timejump are for me: liver in what used to be my favorite foods. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Talwyn
Learned Scribe
Australia
222 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 03:56:35
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I gather that you're not a fan of Fois Gras then Wooly? 
You're right though in that if you wanted to stay up with current products that involve the realms yet the Splleplague sours that feel of FR then its going to not encourage you to continue to buy new FR material.
I think that the way the new FR has been designed, implimented and forced onto the FR community has shown that WotC really wanted to remake FR & D&D in their own image and cherry pick the bits they liked while ditching the rest to produce a D&D lite game that appears to play like an MMO as some people have said.
Its a real shame what has occured with $E FR, the end of an era in some respects. WotC must know that they've upset a lot of their core market with this implimentation but what I find astonishing is that it seems they don't really care all that much. 
You really have to question a company that sets out to establish a new product which provokes a palpable negetive reaction from a large proportion of its customer base and continues to plough on regardless with its course of action. Some people have likened the situation to the disasterous product launch in the early 1980's of "new coke". That cost Coke millions in lost sales and helped Pepsi gain a larger piece of the market share. WotC have done exactly the same and will inadvertently will allow Paizo/Pathfinder to grow. I'm over the anger I felt at the changes and am now at the stage of being an impartial observer of an unfolding trainwreck.
It'll be interesting to see some figures from sales when the product finally is launched and how sustainable they are. If, as I think they'll be, the figures are less than steller or even it tanks, then those who made the decision to procede with the changes must be held accountable as they've basically cost the company and its parent corporation millions of dollars in lost revenue. That sort of catastrophe in business costs people their careers.
It will be most interesting to watch from the sidelines....  |
Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil...prayer, fasting, good works and so on.
Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun.
EAT LEADEN DEATH DEMON!
Terry Pratchett
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 04:32:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I want to stick with the Realms. I want to keep buying stuff. But I don't want the Sellplague, so I'm SOL.
...
I guess what I object most to is the fact that I no longer feel I have a choice about whether or not to progress with the setting, and to keep enjoying current products. I know it's all my own preferences, but it doesn't change the fact that I abhor the Sellplague so much that it is now tainting my enjoyment of anything FR. Anything new from here on out is going to be tainted by it.
Yes, this is how many of us feel. And by the way, I for one am sticking with the Realms--just not this new version that I simply don't care for. That's just the way it is. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 04:37:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Talwyn
Its a real shame what has occured with $E FR, the end of an era in some respects. WotC must know that they've upset a lot of their core market with this implimentation but what I find astonishing is that it seems they don't really care all that much.
I couldn't say how much they care, but in my opinion (and as I've said once on the WotC boards), it doesn't matter all that much. I don't see a difference between putting out a version of the FR that I dislike, and putting out a version of the FR that I dislike and saying "sorry" afterwards.
I don't expect an "I'm sorry" from WotC because this isn't anything personal. I just want Realms products that I actually like. If I don't get that, then WotC will get less of my money.
quote:
You really have to question a company that sets out to establish a new product which provokes a palpable negetive reaction from a large proportion of its customer base and continues to plough on regardless with its course of action.
I do want to point out that WotC has information that we don't get to see, though. For all we know, they might very well be making the most logical decision. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Mkhaiwati
Learned Scribe
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 05:11:28
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Good points, Rinonalyrna.
It just seems, and I can't get away from this feeling, that when many of us posted to the "What I want in the Realms" thread that KnighterrantJR started, and WotC said that they were going to keep an eye on it, it really meant they were reading the thread called "why I don't play the Realms". It seems most changes were to appease that crowd, and not the current players.
It could also be the ice cream tonight causing the sinking feeling (yummm.... ice cream.... drool....) |
"Behold the work of the old... let your heritage not be lost but bequeath it as a memory, treasure and blessing... Gather the lost and the hidden and preserve it for thy children."
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail." OotS #367 |
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Talwyn
Learned Scribe
Australia
222 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 05:23:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I do want to point out that WotC has information that we don't get to see, though. For all we know, they might very well be making the most logical decision.
That may be so but if any of the polls here are a good indicator of feeling in the gaming [D&D FR] community, then surely that has to be taken into account? These decisions [new changes etc] are almost never made without some sort of research these days. I am now wondering who did their market research?
Also, just having a cursory glance at the numbers in the polls here and negetive posts, I would be roughly estimating that every 2 to 1 people are against the changes. Now that's only from this website however I know of a couple of other FR based sites that have had a far greater negetive reaction than displayed here.
I saw an interview with Chris Perkins on YouTube yesterday and he did explain that the choice to take FR in the direction its gone did cause a degree of friction within the company. He did say that it all worked out fine in the end however I'm now left wondering if that was just all PR spin? Something just doesn't feel quite right about the whole thing, it feels like there's been a directive given from the top down to change D&D and FR and this is what has happenned despite the misgivings of a number of WotC employees.
All in all, its intriguing. In some ways more so than what is going on in $E FR, for me at least since I'm a junkie for corporate busts/wrecks and love reading the post mortumn on companies that go bust due to, sometimes, one persons decision. |
Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil...prayer, fasting, good works and so on.
Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun.
EAT LEADEN DEATH DEMON!
Terry Pratchett
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Edited by - Talwyn on 21 Jul 2008 05:25:24 |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 05:41:25
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I don’t understand why people who say they like the Realms and want to buy sourcebooks just don’t go and buy them.
It’s still the Realms. So what if the Spellplague happened?
It’s an excuse to claim “everything has been changed” so there’s nothing left that’s’ familiar.
Really, if you’re a tried and true Realms fan, it’s an excuse.
Take Cormyr. Cormyr is still Cormyr, just 100 years older. Cormyr’s fate never hung on whether Mystra existed or not. The Chosen did exactly zero to keep the Ghazneth’s from wreaking havoc on the Forrest Kingdom.
The article on Cormyr that Brian James wrote could just as easily been applicable to the Cormyr of the future whether or not the Spellplague happened.
Waterdeep? Very likely the same. Waterdeep would have gone on without Khelben Blackstaff regardless of whether the Spellplague happened or not.
And what of The Empire of Netheril? The recent Cormyr article in Dragon shows the wastelands of Anourach have been reduced. The Shadovar/Netherise always intended to do that. Again, the Spellplague has no bearing on if this would have happened or not; it only would have affected the means of making it happen.
Also, what have the Netherese uncovered? How many flying cities exist now (if any)? And has the unraveling of the Weave/Shadow Weave left the Netherese on an even footing spellcastingwise opposite Thay, the Elves of Myth Drannor and the War Wizards?
Or are the Shadovar/Netherese at an advantage when it comes to accessing the raw power of magic, owing to the ancient lore of the Arcanists that preceded them?
I find the notion of reading about future products covering this subject to be exciting.
I’ll say this: Whither the Realms if you don’t buy anything?
Now that’s no reason to buy Realms products no matter what. But it’s reason enough, I think, to apply a less absolutist attitude towards what WotC has to offer.
If you take a “No!” approach, you’re going to miss out on good stuff from good designers, and maybe even lose your place.
That, and the Realms may just die out.
Speaking directly to Wooly for a moment: They didn’t mix liver into everything. It’s better to look at your dinner plate closely before you automatically assume mom made yet another meal that you won’t like.
Me, I’m hungry for the Realms. I may not like liver (really, I hate the stuff) but I’m not going to starve myself over it. There’s good food to be had, you just need to eat around the stuff you don’t like.
Metaphor = stretched to the absolute limit.
;)
EDIT: Quick thank you to Talwyn for mentioning the GRZ video. I hadn’t seen that two-part interview before today and am glad I got to have a look at it. |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
Edited by - Sanishiver on 21 Jul 2008 07:09:06 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 06:09:50
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| Thank you for once again telling me what I should and shouldn't be doing as a Realms fan. I guess this clarifies it. I'm not a Realms fan anymore. Have fun with it. I'll miss it, but I can't take this crap anymore. Bye all. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 07:29:18
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Treads lightly, knowing Sage, Wooly and Alaundo are lurking close by.
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Thank you for once again telling me what I should and shouldn't be doing as a Realms fan.
Who? Where?
I argued that there’s obvious value in things like the Cormyr article. I argued there are things that would have happened with or without the Spellplague, and that there are new secrets of the Realms waiting to be discovered, not all of them related to the Spellplague.
We get to see the Realms 100 years in the future. That’s more lore, more information and not all of it is tainted by the Spellplague.
It’s my opinion as a Realms Fan that this stuff will be fun to read about and to use in Realms campaign. Therefore, it should not be passed up.
It's my opinion as a Realms fan that other such fans will at least enjoy some of what's coming our way. I see no value in automatically turning one's back, without having a look first.
I have too much respect for Ed and his work to do that.
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJRI guess this clarifies it. I'm not a Realms fan anymore. Have fun with it. I'll miss it, but I can't take this crap anymore. Bye all.
Were you ever 100% happy with the Realms in all its forms over time?
Were any of us? Of course not.
I think there’s good reason to enjoy the Realms of 4th Edition. You can have a distinctly fun, Realmsian experience with it. I know this because I’m already having it. Will do so again tomorrow, as a matter of fact.
What in the Nine Bloody Hells is so damn wrong about arguing from a position of experience with and a positive attitude for the Realms?
People are going to do what they‘re going to do. Not my call, that.
But that doesn’t mean reasonable arguments to try and sway people can’t be made. |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 08:40:47
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Sorry, but you seem to have left out important pieces from the picture. Its not what they have done to Cormyr or Waterdeep and the other places that survived the recent events. Of course they changed, and they did so in a reasonable way. They evolved over time, influenced by events which occur as time goes by - no matter if theses events are catastrophic in nature or more of a "regular" kind. This is as the Realms should be treated. It's not a coincidence that the Cormyr article is thought to be the best of the 4e articles by many readers here, because it treats the Realms as it should.* But it is an exception, being drowned in the overwhelming mass of much worse articles which show no sign of respect for or insight about what the characteristic of Realms lore is.
What is really upsetting is the poorly conceived lore about many new parts of 4e Realms: the Tyr-Helm nonsense (aka the divine soap opera), the "clashing of two worlds" (there has never been a world called "Abeir" - it is established that Faerun's world has a bipartite name), the Eladrin absurdity (elves in the Realms were never Eladrin - the later being a race of elf like creature living in the outer planes), the dragonborn debacle (since they have nothing to do with the established 3e dragonborn one has to wonder what happened to Bahamut's children), the reduction of the pantheon and its chosen just because some people who don't like the Realms think they have to be gone (!), to name only a few.
The murder of Mystra, the unraveling of the weave and the spellplague and its catastrophic consequences are not bad per se. They could have been great if they were accomplished in much more intelligent, consistent and respectful (regarding the essence and nature of the Realms) way. WotC has failed horrible in this regard, and by all their actions accompanying the introduction of the new Realms has lost the faith of many fans alienating them to a great degree.
--
* Regrettably I was not able to read the article since I will not register for DDI given the absurd underperformance WotC has shown in regard to their webservices. But from all what I have heard it seems to me that it is a real gem of lore. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 13:40:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
I don’t understand why people who say they like the Realms and want to buy sourcebooks just don’t go and buy them.
It’s still the Realms. So what if the Spellplague happened?
It’s an excuse to claim “everything has been changed” so there’s nothing left that’s’ familiar.
Really, if you’re a tried and true Realms fan, it’s an excuse.
I do not have access to unlimited funds, but even if I did, I wouldn't want to pay for sourcebooks for which I would have zero use, just because they have the Forgotten Realms written on the cover. And even if I did want to pay, I'd have precisely two sourcebooks to buy.
It is not still the Realms. Much of the nuance, the detail and background of the Realms has been changed in ways I do not like nor care for. If WoTC return to their senses and start putting out more material about the pre 1374 Realms, I'll be happy to buy those products. Until then, I'm not going to waste my money on sourcebooks that have no use to me.
Further, I have no interest in supporting companies that change artistic works to better fit a marketing push. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 14:20:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
I don’t understand why people who say they like the Realms and want to buy sourcebooks just don’t go and buy them.
It’s still the Realms. So what if the Spellplague happened?
It’s an excuse to claim “everything has been changed” so there’s nothing left that’s’ familiar.
Really, if you’re a tried and true Realms fan, it’s an excuse.
Take Cormyr. Cormyr is still Cormyr, just 100 years older. Cormyr’s fate never hung on whether Mystra existed or not. The Chosen did exactly zero to keep the Ghazneth’s from wreaking havoc on the Forrest Kingdom.
The article on Cormyr that Brian James wrote could just as easily been applicable to the Cormyr of the future whether or not the Spellplague happened.
Waterdeep? Very likely the same. Waterdeep would have gone on without Khelben Blackstaff regardless of whether the Spellplague happened or not.
And what of The Empire of Netheril? The recent Cormyr article in Dragon shows the wastelands of Anourach have been reduced. The Shadovar/Netherise always intended to do that. Again, the Spellplague has no bearing on if this would have happened or not; it only would have affected the means of making it happen.
Also, what have the Netherese uncovered? How many flying cities exist now (if any)? And has the unraveling of the Weave/Shadow Weave left the Netherese on an even footing spellcastingwise opposite Thay, the Elves of Myth Drannor and the War Wizards?
Or are the Shadovar/Netherese at an advantage when it comes to accessing the raw power of magic, owing to the ancient lore of the Arcanists that preceded them?
I find the notion of reading about future products covering this subject to be exciting.
I’ll say this: Whither the Realms if you don’t buy anything?
Now that’s no reason to buy Realms products no matter what. But it’s reason enough, I think, to apply a less absolutist attitude towards what WotC has to offer.
If you take a “No!” approach, you’re going to miss out on good stuff from good designers, and maybe even lose your place.
That, and the Realms may just die out.
Speaking directly to Wooly for a moment: They didn’t mix liver into everything. It’s better to look at your dinner plate closely before you automatically assume mom made yet another meal that you won’t like.
Me, I’m hungry for the Realms. I may not like liver (really, I hate the stuff) but I’m not going to starve myself over it. There’s good food to be had, you just need to eat around the stuff you don’t like.
Metaphor = stretched to the absolute limit.
;)
EDIT: Quick thank you to Talwyn for mentioning the GRZ video. I hadn’t seen that two-part interview before today and am glad I got to have a look at it.
The Realms I loved had a goddess of magic and her Chosen.
The Realms I loved had characters I'd been reading about for years, and whom I still want to read more about.
The Realms I loved had old empires, dying a slow death but still showing signs of their former glory.
The Realms I loved had a legendary nation far to the south, a nation where insular mages ruled, where ships sailed the skies, and where even the meanest laborer knew a cantrip or two to make his life easier.
The Realms I loved had a Weave of magic, something that was spoken of with awe and wonderment by most of those who most closely used it and knew of it.
The Realms I loved emphasized that everything was interconnected, and that major events in one locale had an affect on other parts of the setting.
The Realms I loved had a place for everything, and an internal logic that made it all work.
The Realms I loved did not have catastrophic events that defied logic and all previous lore.
The Realms I loved did not blow up nations or wipe continents from the map because it was convenient to do so.
The Realms I loved did not have the gods act in manners contrary to their nature, or have their entire being change over a short span of time.
The Realms I loved did not involve islands in the sky or other things imported from generic settings, just because someone thought it was cool.
The Realms I loved did not assume that if something was connected to shadows in any way, that it was not only extremely cool but also had to be emphasized and made overly prominent.
Don't tell me that not liking something that changed the face and very nature of the setting is an excuse. Don't tell me that this event which had effects reaching thru the entire Realms cosmology isn't going to have effects on everything in the Realms.
And don't tell me that removing all of the elements I liked doesn't change the setting. I love Waterdeep. It's my favorite city in the Realms. My love for that city, though, is not separate from my love for the Realms -- it is an aspect of the setting. If the setting changes, it doesn't matter if one aspect remains unchanged or not -- that which it is a part of is different, and therefore it is affected.
They have taken my peanut butter and jelly sandwich, and substituted in mustard and Cheerios. It's still between two slices of bread, and there might be traces of peanut butter and jelly that weren't scraped off or slathered over, but the overall taste has been changed so much that it's no longer the sandwich I want to eat.
I started an entire thread arguing that we needed to wait for more information before we made a decision. I argued vehemently with people about giving it a chance... And WotC then turned around and released more information, making the Realms look worse than I had dared imagine.
Do not tell me I'm not giving the setting a chance. WotC already did that. The stuff they're now giving us is not the Forgotten Realms any more. It's an entirely new setting, with a few familiar elements lifted from an old and familiar one. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 15:07:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
I don’t understand why people who say they like the Realms and want to buy sourcebooks just don’t go and buy them.
It’s still the Realms. So what if the Spellplague happened?
It’s an excuse to claim “everything has been changed” so there’s nothing left that’s’ familiar.
Really, if you’re a tried and true Realms fan, it’s an excuse.
You know, you say you don't want to be browbeaten for your opinions, maybe you should respect other people's opinions in return. Sorry, I don't buy it that my opinion is "just an excuse", and that's that. I am unmoved. I don't care if you don't understand my opinion--I don't understand yours, but I respect your right to it. What I will not do is acknowledge you as any sort of arbiter of who is a "true Realms fan" and what they should do.
So what about the Spellplague? See, the bottom line is, I have my own plans for MY Realms and the Spellplague doesn't fit into it, at all. That's "what". |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 21 Jul 2008 15:12:50 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 15:16:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Mkhaiwati
Good points, Rinonalyrna.
It just seems, and I can't get away from this feeling, that when many of us posted to the "What I want in the Realms" thread that KnighterrantJR started, and WotC said that they were going to keep an eye on it, it really meant they were reading the thread called "why I don't play the Realms". It seems most changes were to appease that crowd, and not the current players.
I don't remember that thread, but I've no reason to doubt what you guys are saying about it, either. I can understand why you would feel betrayed (maybe I posted there too, I just don't remember). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 16:34:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Talwyn
That may be so but if any of the polls here are a good indicator of feeling in the gaming [D&D FR] community, then surely that has to be taken into account? These decisions [new changes etc] are almost never made without some sort of research these days. I am now wondering who did their market research?
Also, just having a cursory glance at the numbers in the polls here and negetive posts, I would be roughly estimating that every 2 to 1 people are against the changes. Now that's only from this website however I know of a couple of other FR based sites that have had a far greater negetive reaction than displayed here.
People like us who post regularly (or at all) on messageboards are a vocal minority. We may happen to accurately represent the majority of Realms fans, but we also might not. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 16:37:20
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I posted there, I remember the thread. I recall wotzee goons saying they kept an eye on that thread. A blind eye as it turns out to be.
And Wooly was indeed the one person who made a strong point for wotzee and being patient, at a point when I was already very cynical about it. He prevailed, for a long time.
If you, Sanishiver, enjoy the nu Realms, good for you. BUT do not frakkin' tell me what a good Realms fan is. You are treading very very unstable ground there! I am German and the last time some crackhead told people what to think and what is right... well, if you know your history you should know how that turned out! |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 16:49:18
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Thank you for once again telling me what I should and shouldn't be doing as a Realms fan. I guess this clarifies it. I'm not a Realms fan anymore. Have fun with it. I'll miss it, but I can't take this crap anymore. Bye all.
I think we both were excluded from that club long ago.
I am to angry to go into this discussion again, but I was never all that good when it came to shutting up. Its one thing to be positive about something for your own part Sanishiver, but to make any assumptions about what I should do or not do to be a Realms fan or to have respect for Ed is a totally different matter.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 17:09:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
People are going to do what they‘re going to do. Not my call, that.
But that doesn’t mean reasonable arguments to try and sway people can’t be made.
I hope it's clear by now that the problem is not what you're saying, it's how you're saying it. The way you wrote your first post made it seem like you were calling into question the "loyalty" some of the posters here have for the setting. At least, that's how I read it, and it looks like other people read it that way too. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 17:12:46
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| And perhaps we need to take a moment to relax before continuing this discussion... It's trending towards something bad, and I don't want to see another thread locked. I especially don't want to see another thread locked because pro-4E FR people and anti-4E FR people aren't being civil and respectful. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 18:54:36
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As I have already stated earlier in the thread, I've come to terms with the Spellplague. I 'think' Wooly may be confusing that term with everything else going on. Mystra died... so what? It happens all the time these days. Magic goes on the fritz for awhile... also "been there, done that".
In truth, the Spellplague is the equivalent of the ToT - unpalatable, but things pretty much righted themselves out after awhile (magic changes, areas of dead and wild magic, gods died, yadda, yadda, yadda...). I don't feel any worse about that (and think it was actually a good idea when taken in context - a deux ex machina to change the Realms for 4e rules) then I did about the ToT at this point. Its aggravating, but its not something we couldn't live with.
If I'm not mistaken (Wooly), I get the impression that it is the 100-year timejump and the inclusion of all the 'Abeir' silliness that is getting under your - and everyone else's - skin. On that I would have to agree; I think they went overboard, and gave us three seperate (but related) RSE's to explain one edition change. Way too much at once, and we are 'choking' on it.
That being said, I've come to a momentous decision (for me and my players, at any rate). I've decided to use the 4e Realms. 
There's a LOT I hate about it, but it is still the Realms, and the ruleset has always been secondary to my stroy-teller style anyway. You don't even need rules to RP, so I could care less how detailed or flavorless they are - I can still manage.
I also plan on running a 3e Golarion Campaign using Pathfinder when their rules are finished. Golarion is wonderful new setting, and a lot of the people who brought the Realms to life for us are doing the same now over at Paizo. There's no reason I can't have my cake and eat it too.
Don't give up on the Realms just yet - Brian's article made me feel 'at home', and I haven't felt that way about the Realms in a REALLY LONG time.
I could of lived without the Dragonborn on the cover, though.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Jul 2008 23:17:36 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 20:04:51
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The timejump is certainly a major portion of why I have issues with 4E FR, but it's not all of it.
For one thing, the absence of a deity of magic really bugs me. If we can have a powerful deity who covers things like dawn, or learning, or loss, then why shouldn't there be a deity of magic? With the heavy prevalence of magic in the setting, there is no logic in the position not being filled.
And it goes against canon lore, too. We've had at least two deities of magic slain without such a huge effect, and in both cases, we had a replacement. Now we have a slaying that causes events that are wholly out of proportion with anything else that has ever happened in the setting. And the replacement of that deity is being blocked by someone who has neither the authority nor the power to do so? How does that make sense?
The Sellplague was more than just magic going wonky -- if that was all that it was, I could easily accept it. What I can't accept is the death of a deity doing things like causing a partial merger with another world, totally rearranging the cosmos, causing geographic areas to blow up or be replaced, or things like that. And considering that the Sellplague had effects that a team of greater deities couldn't pull off working together, I really have a hard time believing that mortal magic could ward off the effects -- especially since one of the greatest concentrations of mortal magic blew up, instead.
Even the Time of Troubles, with every Realmspace god being chucked out of the heavens, didn't have the impact that the death of one deity is having.
And then there are the totally unnecessary elements, like Dragonmarks and floating bits of land, that have been added in on top of all this. It's like someone decided they'd not done enough damage, and that more was necessary.
With all the upheaval and illogic, the 100 year time jump that invalidates the rest of the established Realmslore is like a kick in the teeth.
I could have accepted the death of Mystra, if she'd been replaced. Even if it was by a true neutral deity, it wouldn't have bothered me. And hell, given the task of coming up with some of these changes, that's exactly what I would have done.
I could have accepted the introduction of the dragonborn, if it hadn't involved redrawing the map. There are much easier ways to have introduced them without having resorted to a cosmic cut-and-paste.
Dragonmarks? Why? We don't need them. Simply expand the already existing lore Ed gave us with the innate talents of Volo's Guide to All Things Magical (formerly a suppressed work ).
Islands in the sky? There's no need for those. That's something I expect to see in a video game, or in the background of the unicorn poster being sold to a 12 year old girl.
Shuffling the planes? We had a system that worked for 15, 20 years. Why was it necessary to change it? Hell, I'd already figured out a simple way to integrate the Tree into the Wheel.
And someone is going to pop up and tell me that jumping the timeline forward 100 years doesn't invalidate previous lore, and that it's all still good. And that is correct. But that previous lore is now useless. Before, I knew that the Sneezing Golem tavern stood at the intersection of Crown and Royal streets, and that its owner, Joe Skimbosh, was in love with one of his serving girls, but couldn't do anything about it because another serving girl was blackmailing him. Moving forward 100 years, Joe Skimbosh and his serving girls are dead, and the Sneezing Golem may or may not be a tavern anymore. I may have all the info I want about what it was like and what was happening in 1375, but that does me no good for what's there in 1479.
Had WotC given us a new setting where all of these things were in the past (and which therefore did not contradict previous lore), I would have been eager to learn more. But instead they gave us a new setting with some elements lifted from an old favorite, and told us it is the same thing as the old setting. It's not.
To borrow my previous analogy... I love peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. White bread (which my fiancée is trying to get me to not eat), extra creamy Jif peanut butter, and Smucker's strawberry preserves. If they had changed it to extra crunchy Peter Pan peanut butter and store brand grape jelly, I would have still enjoyed it -- though obviously not as much. Instead, they replaced the peanut butter with stale Cheerios, and the jelly with spicy brown mustard, and then said, "See, the white bread is still there, so this is the same thing!" |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 21 Jul 2008 20:10:18 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 21:38:07
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Markustay and Sanishiver I'm glad that you can have fun in the 4e Realms. Unfortunately I can't. Much of what WoolyRupert loves in the Realms I also love; in 4e Realms the things I love, the things I got fun out of are gone. I described my opinion of 4e Realms as being like Frankenstein's monster deliberately. For me, 4e Realms is a rotting travesty of what it once was, brutally carved apart and roughly stitched together with mismatched parts.
IMO the rot set in with the rash of RSEs, seeming done for authorial one-upmanship.
I am not abandoning the Realms, WotC is abandoning me by going in a direction dictated solely by the bottom line.
The only communication channel that WotC takes note of is with the wallet. For 4e Realms products mine will remain firmly shut!
I did think that Candlekeep was a place for those who cared about the Realms of whatever edition; sadly this no longer seems to be the case.  |
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Ahwe Yahzhe
Acolyte
Iraq
36 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 21:39:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
[/threadjack]
Ever tried a peanutbutter Nutella sandwich?
...peanut butter, nutella, jam, mustard, and Cheerios? Them's good eats!
And don't you know Skippy is better than Jif?!? Gawd!
[/threadjack]
I'm already using the FR conversion for my 4e group playing Keep on the Shadowfell, so that puts me in the 4e FR group. My biggest problem has been whether the party cleric worships Lathander or Amanautor, and how to tie Winterhaven as a vestige of the old Cormyr (I got an answer to that in BRJ's Cormyr article: Purple Dragon Ring inheirited by Lord Padraig.) But this, combined with Wooly's latest comment about all the cool places and NPCs being dead and buried 100 years in the future made me realize what I'm doing. I'm really trying to see what lore I can save by advancing things 100 years in the little corners of the Realms I play in (Moonsea, Vaasa, and Western Heartlands, mostly.) But I can't do that until I know what's been spellplagued, what gods are dead, what cities are "points of light," and what places have been burned to the ground or magically replaced with Abeir. It IS really annoying.
So my perspective is: get on with it, already. I want to start rebuilding my yanked-into-the-future Realms, and I can't do that without the two sourcebooks, even if that's all we'll ever get. After Wooly noted that the tavern owner and barmaids were dead and buried, I realized most of my cool Melvaunt PCs were, too. But I would like to figure out what happened to the city (if anything), if the Zhents are still meddling with the politics there, and then figure out which noble families out-schemed the others to power since 1385...94 years in the Realms might as well be 9,400. I could care less about starting a campaign in Loudwater, but I do want to know what the hell happened to the Realms before I rebuild my little piece of it.
-AY |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 22:52:11
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quote:
Originally posted by arry
I did think that Candlekeep was a place for those who cared about the Realms of whatever edition; sadly this no longer seems to be the case.
I don't think it's so bad as all that, now. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 23:36:45
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Hmmmm... I did specifically point out that I HATE most of the changes.
The problem is I find it very hard NOT to play with the new lore, and try to backwards-engineer it so that everything still makes sense (which is a full-time job, believe you me). Its like having the Mona Lisa hanging in my home, and now there's a Picasso in its place (and I hate modern art). Now I have to try to convince myself it's really the same painting, but now her eye is in her ear.... 
Perhaps she came too close to radiocative waste, or maybe some mad scintist turned her into a mongrelman (woman). Maybe she suffered a magical backlash, or curse...
Who knows... (enough with the wieird analogy)
I find that there are a lot of 'new' players (and I'm including returning old ones) showing up at the WotC boards who are interested in playing the new setting, but still want to use this, that, and the other thing from older sources, and I'm having a lot of fun figuring out how or why they'd still be around, or how they would work in 4e, or even how to explain how something could have "always been that way", when older lore clearly states it wasn't.
And thats really why my interest in FR went from 'admirer' to 'rabid fan' in the last few years - the community, both here and at WotC, which pushes my imagination in new directions constantly.
The new setting may taste like sour lemons to us, but you know what they say...
"When life hands you lemons..."
My only other recourse would have to remain bitter, ignore the new material, and become when of those grognards that just wants to ruin everyone else's fun because "I know better". I've been playing that card for awhile now, and it all it does is leave me feeling agitated inside. I even tried to quit the WotC boards, but I found I kept finding lorebits that were worth responding to. I don't want to give up on what has held my interest these last few years or so - I have a lot of time and research invested in the Realms, BECAUSE I love it, and I'm not going to let some silly new edition ruin my fun.
They can ruin the rules and ruin the world, but I WON'T LET THEM ruin my fun. For better or worse, 4e is the new FR, and I've decided to "just deal with it".
Mod edit: The long line of underscores was stretching the page, so I replaced it with a horizontal rule. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Jul 2008 02:36:43 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2008 : 00:39:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
I do not have access to unlimited funds, but even if I did, I wouldn't want to pay for sourcebooks for which I would have zero use, just because they have the Forgotten Realms written on the cover.
"Zero use," thay may be the best descriptor for the 4E Realms products I have heard so far. Uzzy, can I add this sentence in my sig? |
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FR 4E: Garen Speaks
