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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 19:56:09
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Over in the Dragon issue 365: New Cormyr , I posted the following. Rather than hijack the thread over there, I'd like to move any relevant discussion to a separate thread. I'd like Brian's excellent work and any discussion of it not to get tainted by crossfire.
quote:
One general note, to all *puts on his Ed hat*:
If you have questions about things in the piece, this is a good thing. Send them off in an email or a letter to Wizards' Customer Service (not the message boards, which they tend not to consider an accurate measure of fan interest). Let them know you want to know more about the Forest Kingdom, and the inhabitants of 1479DR and onward.
I know that 4E hasn't been as appealing to everyone as WotC has hoped it would be, the 4E Realms in particular. But this is meant not as an end-all, but a teaser, to let fans of FR know that there is much adventure and flavor to be found in these latter years.
We (BRJ, Ed and I) all took great pains to give you characters and events and historyin this article. Brian did the heavy lifting with the prose, and deserves full credit for his excellent work. But the characters and names and events are carefully crafted and woven into the existing lore of Cormyr. Just because we've all been away for a hundred years does not mean that the show has stopped. This is still Cormyr, and the curtain is back up.
Of course, wanting this lore to continue means someone has to pay for it, and soon enough the DDI is going to kick in and this show is no longer going to be free. If enough avid fans of the Realms don't speak up and say "this is the FR lore we've been wanting all along; keep it up, and we'll try and stick around!" then WotC won't know that this is what folks want, and eventually it will dry up completely. Believe me when I say that those of us who work on these things want to write it as much as you all want to read it. But we can't write it unless we're contracted to do so, and we won't be contracted unless WotC has money to pay us with, and that money needs to come from customers hungry for more. [Full disclosure: I've never been paid by WotC for anything, ever. Not one dime. So I'm not shilling for the company. I'm being honest about where I think the company that controls the Realms stands.]
I want nothing more than than to tell you all about Ganrahast's history, about the romance of Foril and Jemra, about Alusair's departure and Caladnei's fate and Laspeera's daughters and all the other little gems I gave over to Brian to squirrel away in this article. But this is a show, folks, and WotC's selling the tickets. They control the curtain, and it won't go up if people keep saying that they would like to watch from outside the door.
BC
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Edited by - Garen Thal on 18 Jul 2008 19:56:27
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 19:56:57
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To the above post, Uzzy replied:
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
You know, I've been plenty active on the FR forums, asking for new lore, new information about Caladnei, Alusair etc. I WANT more information about Cormyr.
Just not in 1479 DR. Which is all that's being offered. I'm pretty sure we've all made our opinions clear on what we want as fans for the past 10 odd months and even before that. To take your analogy, we've been outside the door with loudspeakers for the past couple of years, shouting at the top of our lungs what we want.
Can't change WoTC. I'd love it if we could. I'd love it if they came to their senses and kept the Realms as the Realms, rather then this abomination. However, I'm over it. I know a company that does like giving it's customers what they want!
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 20:05:31
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I'm not arguing to change anyone's mind over FR4E, or how they spend their money.
What I am saying is twofold:
-WotC does not make business or design decisions, on the whole, based on forum feedback. A single email or letter to Customer Service has the same effect on a large company as does an entire fifty-post thread on their message boards.
-When articles such as these come out and people are pleased with the result, that is the time to speak up and say "Give me more of this, please."
What I expect is that a number of people will go to the message boards (both here and at WotC) and say "Wow, this is what you folks should have been doing all along! It's a shame I've already decided to spend my money elsewhere. Take care." I expect a handful of emails echoing the same sentiment.
And I expect WotC to respond with an attitude of "Well, if you're spending your money somewhere else, we'll listen to the people that are willing to pay us." Right or wrong in terms of listening to their fanbase, any company is only going to obey the whims of their paying fanbase, and a large number of Realms fans have already decided to walk away from WotC's oversight of the Realms,
I agree that they've made mistakes in their handling of the Realms. What I'm hoping is that this, and articles like this, will convince people that their Realms are not lost forever.
I truly think that if people continue to tell WotC what they want, things can change for the better. But that feedback cannot continually be accompanied by declarations of nonparticipation. If someone has chosen not to be on board with 4E FR products, and decided they won't purchase a single 4E product, I entirely understand the reasons that might lead to that decision. I'm not trying to sway anyone's purchasing one way or another.
What I am trying to do is make everyone aware of the fact that a failure to make WotC aware of their preferences, and to respond in an audible manner even to the things that you like and appreciate (like the new article), is going to lead to an even further departure from the Realms we all know and love. |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 20:26:14
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I think we have been making WoTC aware of our preferences. WoTC responded with the Spellplague.
If WoTC want to make products that I would enjoy, and I've told them the kinds of products I would enjoy and use in my campaigns, then I'll purchase those products. If there was a Cormyr sourcebook that told us in depth what Cormyr was like in the 1370's, then I'd have it preordered right now.
I don't have a bottomless pit of money. But still, I bought nearly every FR 3rd edition supplement I could get, in the hopes of WoTC making more. I've greatly enjoyed those supplements, and will still enjoy them in the years to come.
As for your point about forums being less effective then letters being sent, well.. I've sent them a letter. I told them that if they were to reprint the Songs and Swords series in hardback form with new covers by Todd Lockwood, I'm sure they would sell really well. We know how that ended. I've taken surveys. I told one WoTC employee over on EnWorld what products I'd like to see, when he himself asked the community what 3rd edition products people would like to see (That was about two months before 4th edition got announced, by the way). I've told WoTC what I want to see, what I'd purchase. I've spoken on forums, by letter, and with my cash. WoTC went the other way.
With that in mind, why would WoTC suddenly do an about turn and start supporting the range of products I'd like? Or the products many of us here would like to see? Clearly, WoTC have some research that says people want a Realms that's been simplified, and that Newbies want to have fetch and carry quests given to them by wizards in taverns. That's not a Realms I want to spend my money on. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 20:30:01
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Has to agree with Uzzy here. On top of what Uzzy said, many of us have also asked them, at Gencon and at other Cons, what we wanted. Did we ever see that material? No, we didn't.
So. I, for one, don't know what else to do. Many of us have made it clear what we want. WOTC went in a different direction that has driven this long time purchaser of every FR sourcebook/magazine/novel to just walk away.
WOTC is never going to receive any of my money for any 4e material, especially 4e FR material. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 18 Jul 2008 22:30:42 |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 20:36:17
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You know what I think would be good?
A general lifting of the NDA's on topics pre-Spellplague. Let the likes of Ed, Garen Thal and others discuss things. I'm sure that would go down well here.
I mean, I can accept that we aren't going to see full blown products about the Realms pre-Spellplague anymore (though if they happened, I'd be first in line for them). But allowing designers to discuss openly some of that lore would be a nice thing to do.
I might have to ask Rich Baker about it, if I see him at GenCon UK next month. |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 20:36:25
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This is a tricky one - I would much prefer to see articles like Brian's than the Loudwater articles, but as I wont be playing 4E (I don't even play 3.xE) why would I want to subscribe to a service that will be 99.5% useless to me?
I understand your point about telling WoTC what I (we) like, but they aren't going to get any money from me as the vast bulk of the material they put out wont work for me. In an ideal world we would be able to 'buy by the article', but how much would consumers pay to download Brian's article? It would be interesting to hear what folks would pay for that quality?
Unless (tens of) thousands of us email customer services, WoTC are not going to change their design decisions and business plan for 4E. They are not interested in my, yours or Fred/Freda/Bert or Ernies individual opinion, they are interested in numbers, so the amount of people that subscribe and pay will, at the end of the day, decide what gets put up on the website, because if their paying customers say this is good/bad, they will listen to them over me who is a fan first and a 4E WoTC consumer in about 15th position.
Just my thoughts
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 21:02:16
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quote:
I know that 4E hasn't been as appealing to everyone as WotC has hoped it would be, the 4E Realms in particular. But this is meant not as an end-all, but a teaser, to let fans of FR know that there is much adventure and flavor to be found in these latter years.
Sure, but as I said in the thread about the Chult excerpt, it isn't the Realms I like and that's it. This was a nice article to be sure, but it hasn't made me do a 180 degree turn with regards to accepting the 4E Forgotten Realms setting. I'm sorry, but that's just how I feel.
That being said, it's not unlikely that I'll wind up purchasing DDI...but that's mainly because I like the 4E ruleset and the information about the "core setting". |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 22:23:45
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| I'm with Kuje and Uzzy here, which is no small wonder considering my rants. Wizards knew what Realms-fans wanted, and they didn't give a ****. Why should we give a **** about them now? |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Soturno
Acolyte
Brazil
11 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 22:29:06
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I'm interested about these Draeven Marauder... I read sometime ago that the cities of the dragon coast asked to join cormyr and now I see that it was not their wish, right?
And please, tell us more about Tyr... |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 22:36:50
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I really do hesitate to say this, because I really respect Brian R James, Brian Cortijo, and especially Ed, but while I understand what you are saying, and while the Cormyr article is much, much more like what a logically progressed +100 year Cormyr should look like compared to other parts of the Realms, the fact is, no matter how good Cormyr is at this point, its awash in a sea of dragonborn, tiefling, and genasi nations from Abeir, and trying to fend of the super enemy of the Realms in the Shadovar. No matter how much I liked Cormyr, this isn't going to change the rest of that.
As far as WOTC knowing that people want more on Cormyr . . . Sean K Reynolds has said on Paizo's boards that before he left WOTC, it was a given that Cormyr was the most popular nation in the Realms and that many fans wanted a sourcebook on it, and many people at WOTC were perplexed that it was never made.
Garen Thal, I know you already made your point about message boards, and I understand what you are saying, but at the same time, about three years ago I posted a thread at WOTC's FR boards detailing what I would like to see as a Realms fan. It was pretty in depth, and very respectful, and a lot of really good people, both from here and WOTC's boards posted in that thread. There was very little disagreement, and there were many, many pages with few people posting more than a few times. Rich Baker himself came into the thread and said that WOTC was keeping an eye on the thread and to keep up the comments.
The Spellplague made pretty much every one of those requests invalid.
That was my effort at letting WOTC what I wanted as a 20 year fan, and that was the response that I got.
Finally, Rich Baker himself has said (and I don't want this to sound like something negative regarding Rich, I actually appreciated the candor), that WOTC going into 4th edition wasn't worried about those of us that have been here for a while, because if they keep trying to make us happy, they may not pick up new people that they want to bring into the setting. It sounds like long term fans are incidental to this marketing plan.
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 22:44:00
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I
As far as WOTC knowing that people want more on Cormyr . . . Sean K Reynolds has said on Paizo's boards that before he left WOTC, it was a given that Cormyr was the most popular nation in the Realms and that many fans wanted a sourcebook on it, and many people at WOTC were perplexed that it was never made.
And thats why i can't figure out why Loudwater in the initial setting? seems daft to me.
Cheers
Damian
ps i am not doubting your veracity but would be interested in reading what SKR said, I haven't used paizo forums as I don't play 3.xE and I assumed they was mainly about that - does anyone have a link please?
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 22:59:26
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I'll see if I can dig through the 3.5 forums, but I don't remember exactly what the thread was about, other than it referencing FR in 3rd edition. Maybe one of these days if SKR pops back in he can elucidate regarding the topic.
As a slight side note, I love Paizo and their products, but the site can be a bear to dig through for specifics.
Edit: Okay, it was easier than I thought . . .
http://paizo.com/dragon/messageboards/generalDiscussion/archives/whatIsHappeningInCormyr |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 18 Jul 2008 23:02:04 |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 23:14:53
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Edit: Okay, it was easier than I thought . . .
http://paizo.com/dragon/messageboards/generalDiscussion/archives/whatIsHappeningInCormyr
Thank you - will have a browse through the rest of the forums as well.
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 23:23:55
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I admire this work, and I think Ed, Brian and Brian are doing the right thing given the situation, but I'm sorry to say that I'm barely interested in the 15th-century Realms, so while I'm curious about material like this I'm not enthusiastic about it. That may change, of course.quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
As far as WOTC knowing that people want more on Cormyr . . . Sean K Reynolds has said on Paizo's boards that before he left WOTC, it was a given that Cormyr was the most popular nation in the Realms and that many fans wanted a sourcebook on it, and many people at WOTC were perplexed that it was never made.
In 2001, Rich Baker wrote quote:
For the most part, though, we've concentrated our efforts in two regions: the Dalelands and the North. Our market research indicates that most FR fans are playing their games in those areas, so we covered them in greater depth [in the FRCS] than we did other parts of Faerûn.
Yet other than Silver Marches, sourcebooks on these three most popular regions weren't produced -- it's one of the several blatant holes in the given justifications for Realms-2008. |
Edited by - Faraer on 19 Jul 2008 00:14:02 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2008 : 00:11:26
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Unfortunately, I am unable to download the article for some reason (and yes, I AM signed in). 
Anyhow, I agree with the rest of you. I LOVE Brian (in a non-prison sort of way), but this is too little, too late. I am sure its a wonderful article, but its swimming in a sea of mediocrisy (at best).
If I had seen good articles toward the beginning of the DDi announcment I may have still signed up - I was one of the few people looking forward to it initially. But after seeing (or rather, NOT seeing) what they have done in the last 11 months, I cannnot for the life of me justify giving $15 a month to the 'WotC charity fund' - because thats what it amounts to when you recieve nothing for your money.
Sorry, Brian, but I wish you the best of luck in the 4e world.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2008 : 01:27:37
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My reason for not trying to tell WotC what I want stems back to a conversation on the WotC forums, long before my wrongful banning.
The discussion was about web content, specifically about a feature that had been discontinued. Many people were very unhappy about that, and there were different comments on how to communicate this to WotC.
I suggested that WotC could do a survey, and flat out ask us what we wanted. One of their web people quickly replied, saying that they were not interested in soliciting our input in such a manner. He said that they only examined page hits, and it was from those numbers that decisions were made.
This was for a relatively simple and minor thing -- while I've loved some of the articles, the cost of producing and distributing those articles is far, far less than the cost of producing and distributing a sourcebook. And yet, even for something as relatively minor as that, they were not interested in actually finding out what we wanted -- only in how well we liked what they chose to give us.
That right there indicates a serious disconnection between the company and its customers.
Another noteworthy comment was an older one I recently saw on the REALMS-L list. I believe it was Rich Baker who stated that 3E wasn't introduced with a RSE, because research indicated that fans didn't like RSEs. And then, as you all know, we got a flood of RSEs. In fact, one of the first -- if not the first -- trilogies set in 3E was the one featuring the return of Shade (which I had incorrectly assumed was going to be a major part of explaining how everything changed for 3E). And then they just kept hitting us with something they flat out stated that they knew we wouldn't like.
(The cynic in me must note that not having an in-game explanation for the boatload of changes wrought by 3E made it easier to present...)
I would really like to believe that WotC does care about our opinions. But after flat out saying they didn't, and then ignoring something they said they knew was fan preference, I can't believe that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Mkhaiwati
Learned Scribe
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2008 : 03:20:29
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
As far as WOTC knowing that people want more on Cormyr . . . Sean K Reynolds has said on Paizo's boards that before he left WOTC, it was a given that Cormyr was the most popular nation in the Realms and that many fans wanted a sourcebook on it, and many people at WOTC were perplexed that it was never made.
Garen Thal, I know you already made your point about message boards, and I understand what you are saying, but at the same time, about three years ago I posted a thread at WOTC's FR boards detailing what I would like to see as a Realms fan. It was pretty in depth, and very respectful, and a lot of really good people, both from here and WOTC's boards posted in that thread. There was very little disagreement, and there were many, many pages with few people posting more than a few times. Rich Baker himself came into the thread and said that WOTC was keeping an eye on the thread and to keep up the comments.
The Spellplague made pretty much every one of those requests invalid.
That was my effort at letting WOTC what I wanted as a 20 year fan, and that was the response that I got.
Hey! I remember that thread. I even participated in that.
Scary enough, I had this exact same discussion with a person at my FLGS today, of all days. He complained that FR was too hard to keep up with in 3e and it needed a reset. I basically said it was horribly mismanaged by WotC.. if Cormyr was so popular, why did it get so changed before 3e and then never have a sourcebook. It forced players and gms to find old 2e products, read the novels and come up with their own stuff, or come here (not so bad except for the hamster snuggling up to ya after it rains.)
Anyway, it was a great article, but I need to agree with everyone else here. WotC has basically ignored what we wanted for so long, altered the Realms drastically from what it was, and put so little on the DDI scene, I just cannot see paying for anything like this now.
They have eroded my trust, and I cannot throw more money at WotC just to hope that more quality articles like this appears. |
"Behold the work of the old... let your heritage not be lost but bequeath it as a memory, treasure and blessing... Gather the lost and the hidden and preserve it for thy children."
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail." OotS #367 |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2008 : 08:43:44
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I too am disappointed we never got a 3E Cormyr book. That would have been nice.
But I also ran (and continue to run) my 3E and 4E FR games in Cormyr and have gotten plenty of mileage out of Volo's Guide to Cormyr, Dragon and Dungeon Magazine and Cormyr-based novels (six at least count...right?).
I don't think every DM should have to read novels to learn about Cormyr, but I'm not going to personalize the issue because WotC hasn't printed the book I most wanted to see.
Gaming is about fun. I'm still having it.
I think I'll take Garen's advice and write WotC a letter. Detailed regional descriptions like the one for Cormyr are something I want to see more of via DDI, especially since it will put trusted people like Brian, Garen and Ed in a position to write them. |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
757 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2008 : 09:00:39
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| I have no doubt that a great many talented and gifted people sank with the Titanic. With the utmost and greatest respect, I say that people like Ed and Brian (and the others who care so much, but whose names I don't know offhand) are manning the pumps of the WotC Titanic. While I respect them even more for deciding to go down with the ship, I have no interest in swimming in the waters around the 4E iceberg. |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2008 : 13:50:52
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Having read the Dragon article, I can say that it was well written and informative. Unfortunately I really don't care about the people and events involved. However detailed and well-written, the article is about 15th Century Cormyr and that is, for me, a painful travesty of the original.
I'm sure that the authors put a great deal of effort into the article but even this is not enough for me to have anything to do with the Frankenstein's monster that is 4e Realms. I'm sorry Garen Thal but WotC has lost my Realms forever.
In the context of the online Dragon magazine this is too little, far too late.
Uzzy, I wish you every success for your NDA removal plan. IMO I don't think WotC would go for it; we either support their view of the Realms (and hence make them money) or go fish up a tree. |
Edited by - arry on 19 Jul 2008 14:04:37 |
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StarBog
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2008 : 13:12:55
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quote:
That being said, it's not unlikely that I'll wind up purchasing DDI...but that's mainly because I like the 4E ruleset and the information about the "core setting".
At which point WOTC will ignore any objections you've made about their handling of FR as they will (rightly or wrongly) assume that "hey, he's given us money, so he's happy with us. Full steam ahead to the next Sellplague, boys!" |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2008 : 14:05:36
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quote:
Originally posted by StarBog
quote:
That being said, it's not unlikely that I'll wind up purchasing DDI...but that's mainly because I like the 4E ruleset and the information about the "core setting".
At which point WOTC will ignore any objections you've made about their handling of FR as they will (rightly or wrongly) assume that "hey, he's given us money, so he's happy with us. Full steam ahead to the next Sellplague, boys!"
I think wotzee doesn't care one way or the other, they do what they think will make the most cash.
Ironically, their past attempts at gaining new players for D&D in general failed because of the focus on making money (read splat books etc.) The industry was re-energized by the OGL, yes, but the company with the biggest resources to "recruit" new players did nothing of the sort. Quite sad. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Jimbobx
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
109 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2008 : 15:04:55
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Sadly, whatever the quality of the articles being produced they are just not relevant to the campaign I've put 5 years of work into. Ditto to the next wave of novels starting with "Swordmage". I mainly bought the novels as a way to get to know particular areas which I would feature in my games. Increasing my knowledge of whichever area 100 years into the future is not a good enough reason to part with £5.99. If I want an adventure novel I'll spend my money on Wilbur Smith. I'm not particularly angry with the timeline decision it just saddens me that the reasons to part with my cash, that I am quite willing to part with, have disappeared.
Give me an email for wotc customer services and I'll tell them that. |
Rilyetan's Retreat
Jimbob's Waterdeep Journal
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Ahwe Yahzhe
Acolyte
Iraq
36 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2008 : 20:49:40
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It seems the primary complaint is if you actually are interested in playing or running the Realms in 1479 with some sort of continuity and depth of background, the products we want to see aren't there. The appearance of the ocassional excellent FR article doesn't necessarily rebuild good faith.
I've seen something a few posters have touched on- rather than solely relying on WOTC for scraps of canon, we should be building our own vision of the Realms, and sharing them. That was one of the things I like about Candlekeep- I can find an article about "Horses of the Realms," written by an FR fan, if that's something I want to add as flavor to my campaign. Personally, I like asking a question here and getting an answer from somebody who owns every Volo's Guide and 2e FR regional product, or has already written an article or essay about my very question. I'm not going to worry about what WOTC doesn't produce, because they seem to have consciously abdicated the stewardship of its rich background and history, the very complexity and depth of which is its essence. I still keep the original version of Brian R. James' History of the Realms in a 3-ring binder with the "official canon" bookshelf version - it has better maps and more info in several places.
There is no promise of support by WOTC beyond what has been announced. There's a 4e campaign guide, player's guide, a module, and some support articles online for the 100-year jump. But even before that, WOTC products were light on the "official" lore and history, in the form of hybrid adventure/sourcebooks.
So my strategy is the same in 4E as it has been for years in 3.5E: build on what you've got. I took Melvaunt as fleshed out in the Sons of Gruumsh, added elements from 2e guides, and merged it with the mismatched information from Mysteries of the Moonsea, and turned it into a campaign. When I was done, it didn't matter that major portions of the "official" source materials contradicted one another; that just gave me more ideas for plot threads to create a whole new web of intrigues and shady dealings for my heroes to contend with. I'm sure I missed quite a bit of official canon in creating this version of Melvaunt, Glister and the Moonsea; I ashamedly admit I haven't read many FR novels.
I guess my point is that Candlekeep is the repository run by FR fans who help create the Realms themselves. We should stop getting quite so hung up on the "canon" WOTC does or doesn't produce, and get to work rebuilding and sharing the Realms from whatever pieces are available.
(By the way, I've got a great little piece on the noble families of Melvaunt thanks to that campaign- you just can't keep that Leiyraghon family down.)
-Ahwe Yahzhe |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2008 : 22:14:26
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I agree with most people here: too little too late. As soon as I heard of the 4E Realms (i.e. Spellplague and stuff), I bowed out of the Realms and the WotC site (I wrote a long post on the WotC board to Rich Baker explaining why I was moving on from the Realms)
My last advice still stands: go work for Paizo while they're still recruiting! as a business grad, I can sense a shift when one is coming... |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2008 : 23:20:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
My last advice still stands: go work for Paizo while they're still recruiting! as a business grad, I can sense a shift when one is coming...
Unless Paizo suddenly acquires the right to distribute material for the Forgotten Realms this statement is meaningless to me. My passion is for the Realms, not for Wizards of the Coast or the latest cool 3rd party publisher or setting of the month. You know where you're going to find *me* 10 years from now? Right here on Candlekeep.com reading posts about how crappy 6th edition is and how great the 5th edition sourcebook were. Some of you may be ready to abandon the Realms (as is certainly your right) but I'm in this for the long haul. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2008 : 23:28:07
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My passion is for the Realms too. That's why I'm abandoning WoTC.
Paizo are making a great ruleset, and a really great setting, so my gaming money is going their way. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 01:00:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
You know where you're going to find *me* 10 years from now? Right here on Candlekeep.com reading posts about how crappy 6th edition is and how great the 5th edition sourcebook were.
That is, provided the infamous "ASP gremlins" of Candlekeep do not eventually gain victory in the secret war they've been waging to gain control of our lovely library.
...
*The Sage, who does apologise for making such a light-hearted comment with respect to a serious discussion... but thinks it necessary in order to remind scribes that we are here to have fun afterall* |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Talwyn
Learned Scribe
Australia
222 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 01:18:00
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You're absolutely right sage. Playing D&D is all about having fun.
Now while many others are deeply unhappy about the changes wrought in FR with the introduction of $E, I think folks need to take a moment and realise that the game is ultimately theirs to control.
Unhappy with the new setting? Make up a new one yourselves.
Don't like the new rule set? Continue with the old ones or migrate over to Pathfinder.
I'm not going to be buying into the new system however I'm semi curious as to what history Ed, Brian and others have envisaged for the realms. There are some parts of this new history that seem a little forced or just plain out of character [re; whole Helm/Tyr fiasco  ]and this comes across as being as not as well thought out as could be expected but still, I like to know what is going on. I may even be tempted to buy a copy of GHotR now or wait till one becomes available cheaply on ebay 
The great thing though about FR is that you've got a massive scope of history and an avalanche of previously published products that can provide years of gaming time. Also, Ed via the THO, will happily fill in the blanks or provide tidbits of lore that related to FR prior the spellplague.
I think I'll possibly use the new history but not the new rules in my campaign. I don't like the nerfed wizards at all so instead I'll incorporate the wild magic rules to effect all [arcane] spell based magic. Divine magic still works just fine expect in really nuked areas which copped the brunt of the spellplague.
My players have said they want to look at reviving many of the lost/dead gods or help the ones who have been reduced in power to ascend again. So I think we've got plenty to keep ourselves busy and we'll only use the history as a guideline, taking the bits we like and leaving the rest.
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Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil...prayer, fasting, good works and so on.
Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun.
EAT LEADEN DEATH DEMON!
Terry Pratchett
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 02:02:37
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quote:
Originally posted by StarBog
At which point WOTC will ignore any objections you've made about their handling of FR as they will (rightly or wrongly) assume that "hey, he's given us money, so he's happy with us. Full steam ahead to the next Sellplague, boys!"
For the record, I am female.
*shrug* Whatever happens, it's my choice as a buyer to make. I like the 4E ruleset, and have no qualms about supporting the core products. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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FR 4E: Garen Speaks
