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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 16:23:25
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
But as far as the Crytal Grot goes, at least during the rougher times of the Spellplague, who the hell is worried about buying nice gems when countries are disappearing and exploding?
well you could argue that for any trade good, why make barrels if all people want is food or swords to kill people to get food?
Maybe I misunderstood the thread, I though we were discussing how Cormyr and Sembia might survive economically given that the SoFS looks like it has drained and left them landlocked?
If we are talking food that would be very interesting, given that we assume the SoFS has drained away and given that precipitation comes from winds blown across seas, how would Cormyr and Sembia still grow crops? no SoFS=less precipitation=less water=less growth, unless we go back to magic of course......
I'm not as much discussing the nations' economic survival, as I am wondering how they seem to have stronger -- or at least unchanged -- economies, when they've not only had their weather patterns changed (which may be drastic enough to require considerably increased importation of food), but lost a big chunk of trade. Trade will certainly have continued, true, but both nations lost some of their trading partners, and they lost everything else that comes from having seaports -- particularly fishing (food!) and the trades related to fishing. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 16:27:16
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quote:
Originally posted by arry
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I'm not being flip, Mearls and Noonan actually said in one of the podcasts, talking about world economies, that matters like that really are pointless because the game is about people going to kill monsters, and you shouldn't dwell on details like that because they aren't part of the "fun" of D&D.
In their opinion! In my opinion it is part of the fun of D&D for me.
If all people want is 'kill the monster, grab the loot' why do you need a setting at all? All that is needed is a dungeon in a wilderness with a city to buy things in. Nothing else is required. That Mearls & Noonan think that killing monsters is the way to have fun in D&D may explain many of the features of 4E Realms.
Wait a minute, how sily of me, of course a setting is needed. Otherwise WotC wouldn't be able to sell it. [/sarcasm]
Indeed... Part of the reason I got tired of WoW is that it is little more than kill monsters, grab loot, and then go do it again.
But even 3E had that tendency... Hence everything being given stats, and the way monster descriptions lost all the grouping/lair/ecology details they had in 2E. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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chance87
Seeker
50 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 16:59:53
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<tongue-in-cheek>
Why not? That's the way it works in most MMORPGs.
</tongue-in-cheek>
quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
Or are we expected to believe that coins just 'magically' appear when you kill the critter along with +1 sword and the 4 potions the beastie 'drops'
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 17:15:48
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quote:
Originally posted by chance87
<tongue-in-cheek>
Why not? That's the way it works in most MMORPGs.
</tongue-in-cheek>
quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
Or are we expected to believe that coins just 'magically' appear when you kill the critter along with +1 sword and the 4 potions the beastie 'drops'
Honestly, that is one thing that bugged me from day one with WoW: you kill some random wandering nastybad, and somehow, on its corpse, you find coins and weapons. Uh, did this bird-thingy swallow that axe that was bigger than it, or was it carrying it around because it was shiny? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Yasraena Dawndancer
Acolyte
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 17:46:36
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quote:
Originally posted by chance87
<tongue-in-cheek>
Why not? That's the way it works in most MMORPGs.
</tongue-in-cheek>
quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
Or are we expected to believe that coins just 'magically' appear when you kill the critter along with +1 sword and the 4 potions the beastie 'drops'
This is really I think what I'm most afraid of happening. I have never bought WoW, Diablo or Everquest. I have, however, stared at the back of heads as friends became so addicted to these games that they could not even walk away to socialize. What I've always liked about tabletop gaming is the interaction with friends. The creation of a city in my games is more than just slapping together a map and some NPCs.
Norcastle - the city my husband and I have developed has a history, economy, social struction and is fully developed. That didn't happen overnight. It was rough. But we have taken into account things like the Horde Invasion and the changes wrought by other storylines.
There has been a general "dumbing down" of D&D since 3rd Edition. D&D players are not 15 year old geeks with pimples and no girlfriends. My gaming group consists of my husband who is in webhosting who is soon to graduate with his Computer Science Degree. I have 7 years of college, speak two languages, and am a Unix server technician. Our main DM owns his own gaming company and is one of the most intelligent people I know, he's publised for Iron Crown, AEG and other companies. We have a bio-chemist, physics major, chemist, and an Audiologist working on her PHD.
Economies, Natural Forces, Social Orders, these are examples of considerations taken by the very sophisticated players of Dungeons and Dragons. "Don't worry about it, Magic will take care of it?" What do you think we are? Stupid. This is the kind of mentality I expect from Blizzard or Bunge, not a company who's product is driven by the imaginations of people.
An intelligent gamer is going to realize the ecological impacts of the loss of an ENTIRE SEA on the economies and social structures of the coastal regions. You now have a giant pit filled with rotting vegetation and sealife. Dead whales, dragon turtles, fish, shaugin, sea elves, tritons, sea kelp etc. You've lost a major food source for all the communities on the coast. You've lost entire sections of the economy. 10s of thousands of people out of work. Fishers, boatmakers, sea traders, dockworkers, inns and taverns that relied on travelers on the oceans.
Urmslapyr for example would have been a major port. The Merchants there would rely on sea travel for quick shipments. The people would have worked as dock workers, warehouse workers, sea hands, fishermen, fish wives, inn keepers, marketeers. Now, their make source of work is gone. Three generations is not enough for them to have recovered, to have adjusted.
Caravans are far more vulnerable and risky. The discovery of the Americas came from Merchants looking for better ways to get to China and India. The Silk road was frought with dangers. Bandits and other disasters were common.
As for Chauntea and the other gods solving these problems. No, I'm sorry. The Heavens (planes) were in as much flux as Toril. The statement in the Grand History was that only the most powerful gods were able to keep their realms intact. So, Chauntea would have initially been forced to see to keeping her realm together and surviving the initial death of Mystra. Afterwards, she's a goddess of Nature...she's not going to interfere with the natural consequences. If she did, she is going to be opposed by Talona, Talos and other gods who would want to take advantage of the situation.
If anyone here has seen the Super Volcano episode on the Discovery Channel, it was showing what would happen on the east coast if Yellowstone errupts. Now, that is going to be a much smaller seismic event than Halruaa blowing up. So, what we are seeing in the Western Heartlands, former Dragon Coast, and all of the continent of Faerun is debris falling for months, blackout of the sun, (Nuclear Winter), disease, famine, cattle dying, and entire societies disappearing.
Look what little changes in the climate did to France, Ireland and Europe. One could argue that they have yet to really recover from the stability prior to the Little Ice Age. Cormyr might have survived due to the leadership of Azoun V and his son. However, they would not be as the Cormyrian Powerhouse we know in 1374DR. They would be a shell of their former power. The Netherese Empire could have capitalized on the weaken state of its neighbors, but the outlying areas are going to be ghosts of their former selves. The populations should be drastically less all over Faerun.
I would like to apologize to everyone for my long post. I have sat silently watching the developers dumb down my hobby. If you don't want to think, play video games. Its called ROLEPLAYING, its about more than what cool crap you can get and what monsters you can kill. I tend to ramble because I've sat silent so long and I can't sit silent anymore. The Developers are RUINING Forgotten Realms.
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One who has true faith and good deeds, never fears death. |
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chance87
Seeker
50 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 18:56:47
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I think this is one of the main attractions the Realms has for myself, and apparently, many other players.
/loot squirrel
*Player* has found a Vorpal Axe!
may work for some players, but a lot of us require a touch more realism to get the suspension of disbelief effect working.
In pre-4E Realms, Ed had apparently thought of nearly everything...food sources, economics, trade routes, alliances. Everything had a purpose. Everything was tied together in some logical fashion.
Somewhere, I picture a game designer/marketing expert walking in circles re-enacting the old "don't do drugs" commercial.
"If I sell more game products, I can sell more miniatures. If I can sell more minis, I can sell more novels, which will help me sell more game products...." ad nauseum. (probably showing my age here)
quote:
Originally posted by Yasraena Dawndancer
Economies, Natural Forces, Social Orders, these are examples of considerations taken by the very sophisticated players of Dungeons and Dragons. "Don't worry about it, Magic will take care of it?" What do you think we are? Stupid. This is the kind of mentality I expect from Blizzard or Bunge, not a company who's product is driven by the imaginations of people.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2008 : 22:57:47
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
You know, it occurs to me that we've probably spent more time discussing this matter than, well, people that should have, and given some of the comments they have made in the past, they would likely say that none of this stuff is important because it doesn't facilitate getting your players to monsters that they can kill. I'm not being flip, Mearls and Noonan actually said in one of the podcasts, talking about world economies, that matters like that really are pointless because the game is about people going to kill monsters, and you shouldn't dwell on details like that because they aren't part of the "fun" of D&D.
Yes, and Worlds and Monsters included a design principle to this effect, as well. I agree that realism shouldn't trump fun, but for me, the realism in the FR IS part of the fun. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2008 : 23:29:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, it doesn't say so directly, but it looks like the Shadow Weave is kaput.
If the Shadow Weave is kaputt, how come the City of Shade would not crash down? Or is this another thing they will Retcon later on? When I asked Rich about whether the City of Shade should have been destroyed or not (when the Weave collapses), he replied that the Shadow Weave is a separate thing entirely and not affected by the Weave's fate. He also explained that "Mythal-like magics" and Epic/High Magic somehow "deflected" the Spellplague -- yet to me it smacks of "we think that Myth Drannor and Shade are way too *cool* to be smashed" (note: if the Spellplague can toss whole Planes around, how come it doesn't crack open Mythals like rotten eggs? And how come Epic and High Magic are not part of the Weave?). Seems like they just didn't bother with consistency and logic too much...  |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2008 : 23:31:42
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| The Shadow Weave is still going to be there, at least in some form (most likely as some type of Shadowfell power source), but Shar will no longer have any kind of control over it. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2008 : 04:52:26
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Its kind of funny, because the designers still seem to be kind of hedging on what exactly the Shadow Weave is/was, but it didn't collapse when the Weave did, but it did go out of Shar's control, but it isn't perhaps in the same form as it was, so its not really a weave anymore, but it may kind of be a shadow blanket or conduit sort of thing to the . . . ahem . . . Shadowfell . . .
Again, to us as fans its a bit annoying to have them not really clearly explaining all of this, but as with the economics issue, I'm not so sure that they even think that this confusing and potentially contradictory information is important, because the "point" is that there is going to be a "Shadow" power source for some characters to use. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2008 : 16:35:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Drunken Master
I rolling with it – I think this could be cool. The Realms has always been a place of cataclysmic upheaval. Is the Spellplague really any different than when the world was altered by the Sundering? Or when the sarrukh altered the landscape and the Underdark in their war against the phaerimm many millennia ago? Or when the entire empire of Jhaamdath was destroyed by a huge tidal wave? Or when Karsus killed Mystra and destroyed the entire empire of Netheril in seconds?
Yes: those things were done by people of Faerûn -- the macrocosm mirrors the personal and societal microcosm, as with Tolkien's ages and other good worldbuilding. The contrast couldn't be clearer with the god-incurred Spellplague calamities: a world of free will and one where bad stuff happens that you can't affect.
SiCK_Boy's point here is one of the most central in this thing. As with the Weave being an emblem of the Realms itself as a moral creative enterprise, I'm not sure if this is too obvious or not enough.
No memorable, cohesive fantasy world has yet been Frankensteined this way.quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
If that's what the largest number of D&D players want, then I guess it make sense to go that way, but I'm not convinced that FR is the perfect vehicle to showcase this specific D&D experience.
"From the City of Brass to Dead Orc Pass", "Up on a Soapbox: Players don’t need to know all the rules", "Pages from the Mages", and the ecology articles did happen, and we're not going to forget about them.
That is, it still moves. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2008 : 17:04:48
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| Though initially upset about the murder of Mystra and the destruction of the Weave, I quickly came to the point where I could accept it because I saw their perceived need to do away with the Weave so they could implement the "many power sources of 4e." However, I do not like them using the Spellplague as an excuse (and if you sincerely look at what they have done with it, you can see that it is just "an excuse") to destroy the bits of the Realms that they felt did not belong and insert new bits from the 4e Core. Also, they have yet to explain how the Sune/Tyr/Tymora/Helm soap-opera was not out of character for the deities involved. Unless somehow Shar and/or Cyric (in my opinion Shar would have to take part for the deception to work seeing as I do not see Cyric as all that clever) somehow manipulated it. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2008 : 01:06:02
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
Unless somehow Shar and/or Cyric (in my opinion Shar would have to take part for the deception to work seeing as I do not see Cyric as all that clever) somehow manipulated it.
And of course, that would only drive home the idea (that the 4E design team seems enamored of, let's be honest) that Shar is behind just about everything that happens in the Realms.
Why not just make her the new FR overdeity? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2008 : 09:44:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
And of course, that would only drive home the idea (that the 4E design team seems enamored of, let's be honest) that Shar is behind just about everything that happens in the Realms.
Why not just make her the new FR overdeity?
hmmm a powerful being who is meddling and manipulating things in the Realms for their own ends.......
I thought 4E and the Spellplague was 'fixing this problem'
Is it me or does the new 4E broom to sweep away the old 'issues' that are stopping people playing, (such as the Chosen meddling and manipulating the Realms ), only apply when the 4E FR Design Team want to 'fix' a 'problem' because this is what 'folks want'.
Whats the diffeerence between Storm meddling or Shar?
sigh
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2008 : 16:05:43
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
Whats the diffeerence between Storm meddling or Shar?
Basically what I gathers from what Rich said on the Ask the Designer's Thread at the WotC Forums, they seem to think that the Realms has (had?  ) too many good guys meddling, and not enough bad guys meddling. This is not a direct quote, but that is the feeling I got. Of course, I am not sure how they seem to have missed all of the Cyricists, Sharrans, Zhents, Thayans, and Dragon Cultists, et cetera when they decided that this was true. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2008 : 19:19:33
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I just took a look at my Sea of Fallen Stars sourcebook, and if I'm reading things correctly, the Lake of Dragons should survive even if the rest of the SoFS drains away into some new area. The Neck is sufficiently shallow so as to block all the water from draining away. The Lake (which would become a lake in truth as well as name) would lose somewhere between 50 and 100 feet of water before the Neck's damming qualities came into play. However, as there are several rivers that empty into the Lake, it should remain at its reduced level indefinitely. Finally, since the two major sea elven cities are at depths of around 300 feet, they'll both easily survive, though their environment will become more and more brackish.
Having figured all of this out, I am now very curious as to whether or not the 4e Lake exists. If it doesn't, then we'll *really* know that the designers don't care. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2008 : 22:06:06
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
Cyricists, Sharrans, Zhents, Thayans, and Dragon Cultists, et cetera when they decided that this was true.
Simple, Shade is the only source of good villainy.. it is their baby after all. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2008 : 23:19:14
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
Cyricists, Sharrans, Zhents, Thayans, and Dragon Cultists, et cetera when they decided that this was true.
Simple, Shade is the only source of good villainy.. it is their baby after all.
Matter of factly, Shade and its semi-High-Magical flying sister city should be the first things that implode due to the Spellplague. But we will get a neat explanation, no doubt about that. As neat as those about Orcus' return. Now wait, that was not explained in any great detail ... |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2008 : 01:35:46
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
Is it me or does the new 4E broom to sweep away the old 'issues' that are stopping people playing, (such as the Chosen meddling and manipulating the Realms ), only apply when the 4E FR Design Team want to 'fix' a 'problem' because this is what 'folks want'.
Whats the diffeerence between Storm meddling or Shar?
Oh, I'm pretty convinced that there is no small amount of designer preference at play here, for better or for worse.
I sincerely do not understand the idea that the forces of good in the Realms are overwhelmingly more powerful than the forces of evil. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 07 Feb 2008 01:36:03 |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2008 : 08:01:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
Cyricists, Sharrans, Zhents, Thayans, and Dragon Cultists, et cetera when they decided that this was true.
Simple, Shade is the only source of good villainy.. it is their baby after all.
Matter of factly, Shade and its semi-High-Magical flying sister city should be the first things that implode due to the Spellplague. But we will get a neat explanation, no doubt about that. As neat as those about Orcus' return. Now wait, that was not explained in any great detail ...
Orcus return?  He's back in the Bloodstone lands or what?
If that's true I totally missed that... |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 07 Feb 2008 08:02:02 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2008 : 13:12:17
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I was referring to the love the 4Eers apparently share for the Abyssal Lord and his amazing returns. The last of which (Core wise) was not described in any great detail in 3E/RE lore, it just happened.
As for the Realms, the bits and pieces released about Vaasa - a realm where his followers were active beforehand - in 4E sound ominous. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2008 : 13:48:09
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You know, I thought of another aspect of the Sellplague that bothers me...
Because of the Sellplague, magic goes entirely wonky. Mages go crazy. An entire country detonates. Lands get ripped off the map and replaced by lands from another world. There's tectonic upheaval. Deities are killed or sent elsewhere. The planes themselves get shifted around...
And yet, places with strong concentrations of mortal magic (and that aren't Halruaa) are relatively unscathed, because the Sellplague flowed around them. So the Sellplague was powerful enough to do things that even deities couldn't pull off, but the right kind of mortal magic could ward it off.
Does this make sense to anyone?  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2008 : 14:45:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You know, I thought of another aspect of the Sellplague that bothers me...
And yet, places with strong concentrations of mortal magic (and that aren't Halruaa) are relatively unscathed, because the Sellplague flowed around them. Does this make sense to anyone?
No it does not make sense and never will from a game/lore point of view, the Spellplague is just rubbish.
There is no logic or reason behind it within the game/lore concept.
It is simply something for the 4E FR designers to play with to justify the 4E core concept and get rid of characters and places they don't like (for whatever reason they want to or perhaps have to?)
IMO there is no other reason for having the Spellplague. The FR 4E designers can yap as much as they like about how it has been thought through and constructed to give maximum playability and dramatic impact without it effecting the 'Core Realms' (read: Heartlands), but it is just RUBBISH. It is a very poor design plot that has been ripped apart by FR players/DM's on most forums after they (4E FR Team) tried to explain how Thay survived but not Halruaa, or why The Chosen powers are gone but not Baneliches etc etc etc and yet when challenged about this regarding previous canon they go quiet and don't comment anymore. They can't comment because their justification does not fit with previous canon. As I said previously, rather than gassing nonsense and trying to justify the decision by making rather frivilous and poorly thought out statements I would rather the FR 4E team say:
"We did it because we can (or had to?). Yes we know you are upset however, we took this bold design decision and we are sticking to it despite the protests and yes we know not all of you will like it, but we are putting together a brand new FR that we are hoping will appeal to more people than buy FR work at the minute. Please stick with us, and we would really like you all to continue to like and play in the 4E Realms as there will be no going back to the pre-4E Realms that you know and love"
At least that way they are being 'honest' for want of a better word, rather than trying to justify it through gameworld logic that doesn't add up when critically assessed. (I am not saying they are dishonest, I can't find the right word, truthful perhaps? hmmmm. I think that the 4E FR Design team probably have over-riding internal WoTC/Hasbro issues/directives handed to them and therefore can't comment fully on all the reasons certain decisions have been made - is that clearer? I am not personally attacking the team just the decision in general and reasons stated as to why it did what it did [or what it did not do] in the Realms).
And if someone says the Spellplague affected/did not affect certain places because it is 'Magic' is a numpty.
Just my thoughts
Damian
ps hmmm am I ranting? hope not, it's just frustration that this is happening the Realms we love.
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Yasraena Dawndancer
Acolyte
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2008 : 15:34:49
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crazed,
I completely agree. What killed White Wolf was they ignored their hardcore fans in an attempt to lure in newbies. I never hear anyone talking about their White Wolf campaign anymore. I used to go into gaming stores all over Pennsylvania and Utah and hear people talk about their World of Darkness characters. Now, silence. I played on the WW website for about 8 years and still talk to my old friends from there, none of them play anymore.
I'm seeing an exact repeat with the Realms. The decision makers are acting like there is no accountability because they are the biggest company. A recent discussion at work (who knew that in a hosting company there would be so many gamers LOL) we discussed how WotC/Hasbro is acting like the drug dealer who knows he's got you hooked. You can't go anywhere else. You have to buy his drug. They also expressed and I agreed that when Hasbro bought WotC just to get the rights to Pokemon, that spelled the end of gaming as we know it. Its no longer about the game, its about the Dollars and Cents.
I watched exactly one podcast....I've read the rest. When the developers were talking about playtesting and don't even playtest FR, they aren't fans and don't care. Previous developers cared about the audience and the setting. Now we are just told, you have to accept it, you don't have a choice.
I do have a choice. I can not pay one red cent for the new FR. I can convert the old FR stuff and run in Rolemaster, GURPS, 3rd Edition (looking at my shelf, I have probably $1000+ in my books anyway) or HARP. I can encourage my friends to do the same and influence friends to move onto other settings. (I would plug my friends game here but I don't want to ruin his chances at getting his early licensing for 4th Ed...)
I really don't believe the design team when they say they thought things through to completion. They don't understand what losing and entire sea would do to people and places. They say mithals were untouched but blew up Halruaa....yet Thay survived and didn't suffer the same fate? What about the Sea Elf city in the SoFS? Our explaination for the Spellplague was to wack all that you guys love and we think is Twinkie, but we are going to use Magic as an excuse as why the world wasn't blasted back to the Stone Age?
Unfortunately, the only way to get these guys to pay attention is to hit them in the pocketbook. Make things so unprofitable as to make Hasbro sell WotC or make them retool everything.
(I heard a rumor...unverified that Ed (the Man) Greenwood and Margaret (My Queen) Weiss are getting together to create a new setting under Margaret's Company.....sounds like Gold to me.) |
One who has true faith and good deeds, never fears death. |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2008 : 16:53:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Yasraena Dawndancer
(I heard a rumor...unverified that Ed (the Man) Greenwood and Margaret (My Queen) Weiss are getting together to create a new setting under Margaret's Company.....sounds like Gold to me.)
MWP have already published Castlemourn - written by Ed
There is a thread on Candlekeep to discuss that setting
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8715
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2008 : 21:01:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You know, I thought of another aspect of the Sellplague that bothers me...
Because of the Sellplague, magic goes entirely wonky. Mages go crazy. An entire country detonates. Lands get ripped off the map and replaced by lands from another world. There's tectonic upheaval. Deities are killed or sent elsewhere. The planes themselves get shifted around...
And yet, places with strong concentrations of mortal magic (and that aren't Halruaa) are relatively unscathed, because the Sellplague flowed around them. So the Sellplague was powerful enough to do things that even deities couldn't pull off, but the right kind of mortal magic could ward it off.
Does this make sense to anyone?
I actually asked Rich about it on the Boards-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named, but he conveniently danced around the question. I guess their answer will be that the Spellplague is "a magical phenomenon nobody understands" (and hence its powers/effects do not need to be internally logical or consistent). Or maybe the Spellplague is just allergic to Epic/High Magic?  |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2008 : 01:43:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You know, I thought of another aspect of the Sellplague that bothers me...
Because of the Sellplague, magic goes entirely wonky. Mages go crazy. An entire country detonates. Lands get ripped off the map and replaced by lands from another world. There's tectonic upheaval. Deities are killed or sent elsewhere. The planes themselves get shifted around...
And yet, places with strong concentrations of mortal magic (and that aren't Halruaa) are relatively unscathed, because the Sellplague flowed around them. So the Sellplague was powerful enough to do things that even deities couldn't pull off, but the right kind of mortal magic could ward it off.
Does this make sense to anyone?
Not to me. But apparently, with the advent of 4E in the Realms, all things are possible. :-/ |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 08 Feb 2008 01:44:05 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2008 : 08:50:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
I guess their answer will be that the Spellplague is "a magical phenomenon nobody understands" (and hence its powers/effects do not need to be internally logical or consistent). Or maybe the Spellplague is just allergic to Epic/High Magic?
The usual deus-ex-machina device.
"But designers, why did that happen here and not there, and there, and there?"
"Because!" |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2008 : 11:18:14
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| I've given up on 4E Realms, WotC can make up whatever garbage they want; and in my opinion it is garbage. |
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Nimriel
Seeker
Sweden
51 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2008 : 20:06:48
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| The real realm is truly forgotten. At least I will have more money to use on old products. |
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Dragon Features: Magic in the Forgotten Realms
