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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 10:56:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Am am not all that convinved that weather factors were ever really addressed in published material.
Not addressed but I recall pieces of information about weather patterns and I guarentee that Ed has a full breakdown of air/water currents and how cerain druids/mages/priests alter for there own pleasure.... and thats what makes the Realms for me, the logic and consistency of thinking 'why and how?'
Damian
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 12:22:46
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The article did it for me as well. Without going into any details of the article, as those have been mentioned more than once already - at the bottom line stands: MY Realms are destroyed, stripped of all that felt realmsian to me, that I made myself so familiar with over the years. Instead the designers threw in stuff that IMO originates/belongs to other settings, making those destinct from FR and thereby making the FR destinct from them. Left behind is a scared and ruined land that I cannot identify myself with any longer.
Rather I am reminded of my times playing Earthdawn, the general atmosphere of that setting strikes a similar note if you ask me - post-apocalyptic would be fitting, as Rino already said.
And this 'Abeir'-thing - come on! Do they through Ebberon onto the continent to merge the settings and hopefully the customer pool as well? Wild guess on my part, but would not surprise me anymore...
I'm done with the topic '4th Ed FR' once and for all! I will not say anymore about it as I cannot see it getting any worth. Than again, I have though that before...?! MMMh... no truely. I will leave 4th Ed FR to the designers and to those that like what they see. Have fun gaming. I will stick with Mystra and a cartload of other Gods, Elminster and the rest of the 'pesky' Chosen, Halruaa, the Sea of Falling stars and whatever changes I forgot to mention just yet and those that still will have to be revealed. Ah, and of course without Ebber...ahem I mean a 'Returned Abeir'.........!
Huzzay! Hail to the Realms before 1385!
Ergdusch
P.S.: If you ever see me in any other 4th Ed thread, slap me!
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"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 01 Feb 2008 12:30:26 |
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ShepherdGunn
Seeker
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 12:54:34
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Huh? What? Weather patterns? Air Currents? Geological, Socio, and Economic Impact? But we have buildings the float in the air! We're melting the High Ice... Say, if the Sea of Fallen Stars is gone, where's all that water going? Oh... wait... that's requiring putting meaningful thought beyond "Wesa thinksa dis is muy muy Kewl!" (Suddenly picturing the WotC Design Team all with long floppy ears, badly CGIed, dancing around screaming "Oh, Eddie!!! Wesa lova yusa, Eddie!!! Aeeeiii!")
A country the size of Germany goes magically nuclear, shatters the landmass, what happens to all the debris? I mean, this is like a super-volcano going off!
An entire continent is "subsumed" with an entirely new landmass, the tsunami didn't even touch Waterdeep? Evermeet didn't go the way of Atlantis? I mean... planet killer scale events are going on, not to mention whole planes or reality are colliding together, and we're being told "Look how cool this all is!"
I don't know... a hundred years in the future I was kinda looking forward to New Waterdeep, and New Amn, and the other settlings on the "New World". I mean a Banite colony looking for "religious freedom" would of had great possibilities. I'll admit, I did more with Kara-Tur then I did with Maztica, but I worked really hard to make my campaigns to be world inclusive.
And what about chocolate in the Forgotten Realms? With no Maztica, there's no chocolate! I mean, for the love of Sune, what about chocolate?!?! |
"Man does not live by bread alone, likewise, blades and arrows aren't the only things that can kill him." |
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Yasraena Dawndancer
Acolyte
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 13:37:12
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Shepherd,
You are assuming that people that develop games take into account things like that. I thought of the super-volcano thing myself. There are scientists that estimate the last Super Vulcano to errupt was about 70,000 years ago and may have killed 75% of the population at the time. The lack of Tsunami in Waterdeep I can buy with a simple Magical appearance of Abeir...however, Halruaa blowing up the way it did would have also caused waves. The Sea of Falling Stars is in Underdark from what I understand. (Curiously, I wonder if between the SoFS and the Shaar collapse if the drow won't be forced to the surface despite anything done in the upcoming books)
The problems I am seeing is that not a whole lot was thought through on this. When Mt. St. Helen blew in 1981, it affected weather patterns for 20 years as the debris circulated the upper atmosphere. The writers and developers are working hard, no one is claiming they aren't. I just wish they would take more time to understand the full impact that things would have and that society doesn't recover so quickly. The Little Ice Age ushered in the collapse of Western Society, it brought the Black Plague, changed European Diets and eventually caused such upheavals as the French Revolution. One could say from the beginning (1250) to the end in the 1800s it took centuries for people to adapt to the relatively small changes.
I do not believe that Faerun would adapt to such drastic changes in less than 3 generations, only 1 for the longer lived races.
Yes, they have made changes to the political climate, but socially from the write ups, very little has changed. This would not be the case.
From a Scientific Standpoint, the changes are too drastic with little impact. This is the same for the Sociological Standpoint.
I've almost come to the point I did with White Wolf several years back. The end of the World of Darkness was hyped as a chance for a new beginning. I faithfully bought the core books when the new edition come out only to be so sorely disappointed that they sit on my shelves having never had a campaign run from them. I ran almost exclusively World of Darkness (playing D&D periodically) until that time. Now, I have not bought or even looked at a White Wolf product in probably 3-4 years. I am wondering if Wizards has gone the same route. Some of what they are doing is exciting me, rules changing things being simplified, but they are loosing sight of who buys their books and ignoring the wants of the fans for their own ideas of what is cool. I will probably borrow a copy of the new FR campaign Setting before I buy it, something I did not do when 3rd Edition launched. I will probably buy the core books since I do belong to a larger gaming group that includes a man who owns his own gaming company. I have consulted on his d20 books before...but how sad it is that I'm looking at the $120 dollars not as a new chance for games. But three core books I need for business purposes only.
I am saddened by the loss of so much of the Realms. Many of my old characters have been killed or trashed by the events going on. This character Yasraena may be eliminated by Lisa Smedman's next book. My half-elf from Halruaa is gone... The death of the human characters is acceptable with a time jump, but my Elves, Dwarves and even one Dragon are all completely destroyed by the changes. My own "City" that developed through our gaming sits at the edge of the Endless Wastes. I can only begin to wonder how the changes in Thay and Mulhourand are going to affect it.
I can honestly say, I'm feeling more and more depressed and less and less excited about the changes. Perhaps I should just focus on my cross-stitching. LOL Safer hobby. |
One who has true faith and good deeds, never fears death. |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 14:27:34
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We are dealing with a magical fantasy world. We can’t apply our understanding of physic to the Realms. We need to shift our thinking into ‘in-game’ mode. There is no tsunami cause by the loss of Maztica because it was fully phased out, not a partial phase like what occurred in the dragonborn (not draconians!) realm appearing in Unther. Local weather patterns can be changed by druids, clerics, or mages…even global weather changes could be changed by a cabal of magic using beings. e.g. Melting of the High Ice. Let’s not forget there are deities that cover or can affect weather too. Chauntea can easily curb some of the more drastic changes to protect her children (all living beings on the planet) Halruaa blows up, we don’t know who or what was present to curb any of this mass destruction. Maybe several Chosen/powerful Lich prevented some of it from cracking the planets crust. Its 100 years later, there are new trade routes over land and on the sea. The loss of chocolate has been saved by new entrepreneurs or sect of druids who just happened to have the seeds to grow new plants.
We just don’t know what is occurring behind the scenes and probably won’t know anything until starting in August.
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I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 15:12:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Yasraena Dawndancer
(Curiously, I wonder if between the SoFS and the Shaar collapse if the drow won't be forced to the surface despite anything done in the upcoming books)
Maybe the drow will turn into evil Underdark-swimming-elves now. Same goes for any other Underdark race with the possible exception of the Kuo-Toa |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 15:22:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
We are dealing with a magical fantasy world. We can’t apply our understanding of physic to the Realms. We need to shift our thinking into ‘in-game’ mode. There is no tsunami cause by the loss of Maztica because it was fully phased out, not a partial phase like what occurred in the dragonborn (not draconians!) realm appearing in Unther. Local weather patterns can be changed by druids, clerics, or mages…even global weather changes could be changed by a cabal of magic using beings. e.g. Melting of the High Ice. Let’s not forget there are deities that cover or can affect weather too. Chauntea can easily curb some of the more drastic changes to protect her children (all living beings on the planet) Halruaa blows up, we don’t know who or what was present to curb any of this mass destruction. Maybe several Chosen/powerful Lich prevented some of it from cracking the planets crust. Its 100 years later, there are new trade routes over land and on the sea. The loss of chocolate has been saved by new entrepreneurs or sect of druids who just happened to have the seeds to grow new plants.
We just don’t know what is occurring behind the scenes and probably won’t know anything until starting in August.
Excellent I was hoping someone posted this sort of response.
One of the stated design goals of 4E to to make the PC's the heroes and get rid of all the super powerful beings who are 'cramping' new players joining the Realms because they say 'whats the point? El/seven sisters/harpers etc will fix it, why do we even bother'  . The designers want to de-emphasis the power and magic and make it more 'balanced'.
However to fix the aftermath of the design changes that the 4E Realms introduces we need super powerful Gods and high level Druids and Cabals of Wizards to alleviate changes to weather currents and continets blowing up and seas flooding the underdark and beasts going rampant, and magic going wild etc etc etc
Seems ironic to me, we will blow up the Realms to kill the powerful and then need the powerful to fix the problem....... (if of course as designers we care about the problems that blowing up the Realms causes, if we are not interested in how weather patterns should change then it doesn't matter - and my personal feeling are that they don't care, they are writing a new camapaign setting that does not take into account such things).
BTW am not picking on you Bakra, you did a perfect backfill to how the changes can be fixed, and the back fill is something I would genrally go along with, but if the changes weren't made initially we wouldn't need the backfill, and I doubt very much if much backfilling will be done officially apart from "the Gods that were left used their power to protect Toril from being completley destroyed by the Spellplague Cataclycism, saving the planet and bringing forth a new age of discovery to the shattered land"
Does it seem to anyone else that we are replacing one set of powerful beings that 'constantly save the world' with another......
Just my thoughts
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
Edited by - crazedventurers on 01 Feb 2008 15:25:09 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 15:25:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
We are dealing with a magical fantasy world. We can’t apply our understanding of physic to the Realms. We need to shift our thinking into ‘in-game’ mode. There is no tsunami cause by the loss of Maztica because it was fully phased out, not a partial phase like what occurred in the dragonborn (not draconians!) realm appearing in Unther. Local weather patterns can be changed by druids, clerics, or mages…even global weather changes could be changed by a cabal of magic using beings. e.g. Melting of the High Ice. Let’s not forget there are deities that cover or can affect weather too. Chauntea can easily curb some of the more drastic changes to protect her children (all living beings on the planet) Halruaa blows up, we don’t know who or what was present to curb any of this mass destruction. Maybe several Chosen/powerful Lich prevented some of it from cracking the planets crust. Its 100 years later, there are new trade routes over land and on the sea. The loss of chocolate has been saved by new entrepreneurs or sect of druids who just happened to have the seeds to grow new plants.
We just don’t know what is occurring behind the scenes and probably won’t know anything until starting in August.
Why would druids or nature deities alter the weather? They're all about the natural world -- so altering that isn't going to be something they want to do.
And oh, they "just happened" to have the seeds? Why would they have seeds of a non-native plant handy? This isn't something druids would do, because druids would understand that the introduction of non-native species into an ecology can greatly upset that ecology.
"draining the Sea of Fallen Stars into the Glimmer Sea far below (and leaving behind a continent-sized pit called the Underchasm)." How do you propose to recreate a trade route across that? It's not just the ability to make the transit -- it's also how difficult it is to make the trip. Sailing is easy. Descending into a pit, dodging plateaus, crevasses, the Trench of Lopok, now-dead formations of coral, plains that could be hundreds of feet below the surrounding terrain, and then climbing back up is not something that's going to happen easily. And that's not considering the effects of the sea-going economy that just literally dried up...
How are Chosen or a lich going to prevent ill effects from Halruaa blowing up? All prepared magic detonates at the same time that magic goes absolutely bonkers. What could the Chosen possibly do? And among liches, only Ioulaum, the Terraseer, or Larloch are powerful enough to think about doing something there... What's their motivation? How were they aware of what was going to happen in time to do something (this also applies to the Chosen)? And again, with magic going boom and or being unreliable, how are they going to do anything?
You know, I want to have faith, too. But they are too busily destroying and rearranging everything. We know that Ed is dedicated to making things make sense. He would consider things like weather patterns and trade routes. But we're talking about the people that brought us the divine soap opera at the end of the Grand History. If they can't maintain internal logic and consistency with just a handful of deities, do you really expect it to be in place in the change-for-change's-sake environment they're currently in? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 15:34:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Yasraena Dawndancer
I am saddened by the loss of so much of the Realms. Many of my old characters have been killed or trashed by the events going on. This character Yasraena may be eliminated by Lisa Smedman's next book. My half-elf from Halruaa is gone... The death of the human characters is acceptable with a time jump, but my Elves, Dwarves and even one Dragon are all completely destroyed by the changes. My own "City" that developed through our gaming sits at the edge of the Endless Wastes. I can only begin to wonder how the changes in Thay and Mulhourand are going to affect it.
You don't have to implement these changes into YOUR Realms if you don't want to. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 15:36:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
Halruaa blows up, we don’t know who or what was present to curb any of this mass destruction. Maybe several Chosen/powerful Lich prevented some of it from cracking the planets crust.
The Chosen? They are being phased out too, remember? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 15:43:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
"draining the Sea of Fallen Stars into the Glimmer Sea far below (and leaving behind a continent-sized pit called the Underchasm)." How do you propose to recreate a trade route across that? It's not just the ability to make the transit -- it's also how difficult it is to make the trip. Sailing is easy. Descending into a pit, dodging plateaus, crevasses, the Trench of Lopok, now-dead formations of coral, plains that could be hundreds of feet below the surrounding terrain, and then climbing back up is not something that's going to happen easily. And that's not considering the effects of the sea-going economy that just literally dried up...
Glad to see we are singing from the same Hymn Sheet Wooly.
What I really don't get at all about this, is the Shade and how they survive - they conquer Sembia who rely of trade (mainly sea going) to be rich. This allows the Shade to stay around and become a power in the Realms as all the Sembian money goes to them as 'feudal overlords' (for want of a better term). However the main source of income for the Shades essentially disappears with the SoFS draining away and leaving Sembia high and dry?
So how have they survived economically? are they magically making money to pay for all the mercernies that they kept sending to Cormyr to fight the 'Long War'? I don't get it, without a stable and bustling economy no power group/country can survive for an extended period of time against so many enemies. It doesn't make sense to me at all, why bother conquering somewhere that will only be a drain on your resources not an addition to (apart from looting it of course), and why keep control if you do conquer it, if it can offer little in return? How does Sembia make money? after years of War they haven't been trading with Cormyr, have they still be trading with the Moonsea North? how are they getting to the Vast now? I suspect it will a rather poor design choice of a 1/4 mile wide 'shadow bridge of magic' stretching 100 miles or so from Yhuann to Calaunt, or a massive teleport stone/gate that has been created because they can being powerful wizards and all, in cabal and organisation that workd togther (*sigh* more powerful magic from more powerful magic beings and we [the 4E design team] are trying to get rid of powerful magic and beings by killing them off via the Spellplague debacle to make the players feel more heroic...... )
Hmmm does this make me a grognard and curmudgeon?
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
Edited by - crazedventurers on 01 Feb 2008 15:46:49 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 17:51:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But we're talking about the people that brought us the divine soap opera at the end of the Grand History.
Damn...Wooly's quoting me RANTs(TM) 
Must have said some things meaningful in all my ramblings... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 18:15:18
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Perhaps, it is responding to these mega-disasters that will kill-off all of those super-NPCs... did you ever think of that?
Since this whole mess reads like a comic, then let us think like a comic - would not the 'super-types', even the bad ones, try to shore-up collapsing stuctures or terrain? And while all of the 'good guys' and most of the 'bad guys' are just trying to preserve whatever little piece of reality they can, wouldn't a few of the 'Ultimate Bad guys' try to make this work for them? Just picture the Simbul holding back a tidal wave by sheer force of will, and Szass Tam sneaks in behind her and takes advantage of the situation with a well-place magical bolt of death?
The sheer chaos of what will happen in the first few weeks of the spellplague will probably be what's going to kill off the thousands of level 10+ NPCs - heroes and villains alike will want to preserve what's theirs, and die trying.
So, its kinda simple to say that the 'heroes' (and even some villains) saved the world, but died in the process. That would cover the designer's a__es on two fronts.
Not that I want to defend any of their decisions or anything, but thats the angle I would play up. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 19:11:20
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| But again -- arcane spellslingers and Chosen are the best suited to combat the badness -- and their means of doing so has become unreliable. Remember, the Sellplague is devastating to arcane spellslingers -- many go crazy, and magic is unreliable. So I don't see how mages could do anything to stem the chaos. And even the ones that can, it still involves being able to be in the right place at the right time. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 19:30:35
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| Looks like my City of Waterdeep Trail Map is even more out of date now. If there is one product I wish they would have continued to produce, it was the trail maps. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 21:34:15
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Don't forget the Atlas book, completely useless now too.
But that's the whole point of 4E Realms, to make all of the AD&D stuff useless, that way authors and developers don't have to read them before publishing Realms stuff. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 22:58:42
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And, of course, get customers to buy new FR materials.
I, for one, will not be doing so. WotC has had the last penny from me that they're going to get. Not even Ed's lore in the 4E FRCS will make me buy. I won't give WotC any more money. |
Edited by - arry on 01 Feb 2008 23:00:30 |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 23:54:41
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| I'm on the fence about it.. fortunately I work at a bookstore and we're allowed to loan books for a week, so I'll have a week alone with the FRCG before I have to make a decision. I have a feeling that 80-90% of my 4E collection will be acquired digitally. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 01:57:00
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<<BTW am not picking on you Bakra, you did a perfect backfill to how the changes can be fixed, and the back fill is something I would genrally go along with, but if the changes weren't made initially we wouldn't need the backfill, and I doubt very much if much backfilling will be done officially apart from "the Gods that were left used their power to protect Toril from being completley destroyed by the Spellplague Cataclycism, saving the planet and bringing forth a new age of discovery to the shattered land">>
Damian my fellow crazy adventure,
Its all right, I’m not taking offense from anyone. And I like to think WotC would at least dedicate trilogy of books for all this mess and an anthology.
<< Why would druids or nature deities alter the weather? They're all about the natural world -- so altering that isn't going to be something they want to do.
And oh, they "just happened" to have the seeds? Why would they have seeds of a non-native plant handy? This isn't something druids would do, because druids would understand that the introduction of non-native species into an ecology can greatly upset that ecology. How do you propose to recreate a trade route across that? It's not just the ability to make the transit -- it's also how difficult it is to make the trip. Sailing is easy. Descending into a pit, dodging plateaus, crevasses, the Trench of Lopok, now-dead formations of coral, plains that could be hundreds of feet below the surrounding terrain, and then climbing back up is not something that's going to happen easily. And that's not considering the effects of the sea-going economy that just literally dried up...>>
Wooly my favorite ball of fluff,
There is nothing natural about what triggers the wacky weather patterns. No one can say that all of the druids or deities of nature just sit back and did nothing during this whole event. And who can say that it isn’t possible that in the present or future Realms some merchants or druids or even clerics haven’t already planted seeds of the coca on the mainland of Toril. And it is 100 years later, I’m sure some beings have or currently trying to establish a trade route to the ‘Underchasm’. Think about the Stonelands, how many players here and npcs in the game have tried to claim the title of ‘Baron of the Stonelands’. When I was in college I had one character succeed, he died shortly after, but he did gain the title. And even if no one established a trade route in that area in this obviously new highly highly magical world, I can safely say that will be the first thing my character attempts…if I choose to buy the game.
Rino…errr…can’t think of cutesy greeting…damn…
<< The Chosen? They are being phased out too, remember?>>
I didn’t forget at all. But I don’t know which ones are being phased out either, nor do I know when on the timeline they are being ‘nuked’. I do know it better be more than two sentences and make some sense. The way they handle the Chosen is one of the deciding factors for me come August when I take time from my day to read it at the local Bookstore.
Oddball question: Does Myth Natar have true mythal? If so, does this mean there is a gigantic bubble of water on dry land??
And to quote Rino:
You don't have to implement these changes into YOUR Realms if you don't want to.
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I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 02:36:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
<< Why would druids or nature deities alter the weather? They're all about the natural world -- so altering that isn't going to be something they want to do.
And oh, they "just happened" to have the seeds? Why would they have seeds of a non-native plant handy? This isn't something druids would do, because druids would understand that the introduction of non-native species into an ecology can greatly upset that ecology. How do you propose to recreate a trade route across that? It's not just the ability to make the transit -- it's also how difficult it is to make the trip. Sailing is easy. Descending into a pit, dodging plateaus, crevasses, the Trench of Lopok, now-dead formations of coral, plains that could be hundreds of feet below the surrounding terrain, and then climbing back up is not something that's going to happen easily. And that's not considering the effects of the sea-going economy that just literally dried up...>>
Wooly my favorite ball of fluff,
There is nothing natural about what triggers the wacky weather patterns. No one can say that all of the druids or deities of nature just sit back and did nothing during this whole event. And who can say that it isn’t possible that in the present or future Realms some merchants or druids or even clerics haven’t already planted seeds of the coca on the mainland of Toril. And it is 100 years later, I’m sure some beings have or currently trying to establish a trade route to the ‘Underchasm’. Think about the Stonelands, how many players here and npcs in the game have tried to claim the title of ‘Baron of the Stonelands’. When I was in college I had one character succeed, he died shortly after, but he did gain the title. And even if no one established a trade route in that area in this obviously new highly highly magical world, I can safely say that will be the first thing my character attempts…if I choose to buy the game.
Yeah, but to the druids, whatever happens will be nature reasserting itself after everything is done. It may be shifted, but it will still be natural. And druids nurture that -- they don't try to change it.
No matter who plants the cocoa, it's still not native. And non-native plants can still have a devastating effect on the local ecology. Just because they're already planted doesn't give them some special status.
And it's not the existence of a trade route to the Underchasm that I'm arguing. If someone settles there, then it may indeed be profitable to trade with them (assuming the ghosts of suffocated shalarin, merfolk, tritons and sea elves aren't wandering around). I'm talking about the difficulty of trying to cross it, all the way to Sembia and Cormyr. When there was a sea there, transit across that area was relatively easy. But having to walk/haul stuff there, across very difficult terrain with serious elevation differences? That trade is going to be very, very limited.
Heck, it's easier to move stuff across the relatively passable terrain to Kara-Tur. And yet, the sheer length of the route means that while trade does happen, it's nothing steady or regular. And that's ground that's relatively easy to traverse.
No, Cormyr and Sembia lost their sea trade, and it's not going to be replaced by traveling overland thru the Underchasm. So we have two nations that are somehow still strong economically, despite having lost a major source of revenue and having had their weather altered. Nope, does not compute. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 02 Feb 2008 02:38:34 |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 09:10:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
No, Cormyr and Sembia lost their sea trade, and it's not going to be replaced by traveling overland thru the Underchasm. So we have two nations that are somehow still strong economically, despite having lost a major source of revenue and having had their weather altered. Nope, does not compute.
Cormyr:
The Crystal Grot, coal and expansion south of the Dragonmere so trade caravens to whats left of the south.
Sembia:
Slave culture perhaps? slaves you don't have to pay, so all those people working for 'free' (except for food) means that all profits made go back into the hands of the few and they keep the economy going?
Also the Shade have had time to unearth the lost treasres of the Anauroch, so maybe they have oodles of coin from the Empires under the Sand?
Just a thought or two
Damian
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 11:28:10
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Part of the enjoyment of any fiction is the willing suspension of disbelief. Personally I cannot suspend my disbelief any longer over the changes revealed.
Ed's Realms were crafted carefully and fitted together like a fine watch. 4E Realms is, in my opinion, made using the 'brute force and ignorance' school of design. It's not for me, no how, no way. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 13:34:07
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| But as far as the Crytal Grot goes, at least during the rougher times of the Spellplague, who the hell is worried about buying nice gems when countries are disappearing and exploding? Heck, on Krynn, when the Cataclysm hit, gold lost its value because no one needed it to survive. While I never fully bought the "steel standard," the point still stands that having precious metals and gems when people are having a hard time surviving doesn't count for near as much. |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 02 Feb 2008 13:34:44 |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 14:13:45
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
But as far as the Crytal Grot goes, at least during the rougher times of the Spellplague, who the hell is worried about buying nice gems when countries are disappearing and exploding?
well you could argue that for any trade good, why make barrels if all people want is food or swords to kill people to get food?
Maybe I misunderstood the thread, I though we were discussing how Cormyr and Sembia might survive economically given that the SoFS looks like it has drained and left them landlocked?
If we are talking food that would be very interesting, given that we assume the SoFS has drained away and given that precipitation comes from winds blown across seas, how would Cormyr and Sembia still grow crops? no SoFS=less precipitation=less water=less growth, unless we go back to magic of course......
One more thing, the Wyvernwater drains into the Dragonmere, the Dragonmere potentially drains into the SoFS which means that both might also be gone/severely reduced in size. Unless of course there is an underwater ridge where the Neck is, which means that the Dragonmere might survive and become a small self contained sea/brackish lake, which might alleviate some of the weather changes to Cormyr and Western Sembia allowing them to recieve enough rainfall to survive as agricultural communities. Any War wizards left might magically 'dam' the Wyvernwater near the falls south of Wheloon to secure fresh water for Cormyr perhaps? Or the crown might just build one coventionally?
If there is a underwater ridge near the neck(now emerged) this also creates a potential for a land bridge (with some work required perhaps to make it easier to traverse) across the neck from just north of Westgate to Western Sembia/Cormyr directly south of Daerlun -just a thought on how they could still 'ship' goods across that space to continue trading and keep their economies going? Feasible yes/no??
Cheers
Damian
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 14:21:27
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You know, it occurs to me that we've probably spent more time discussing this matter than, well, people that should have, and given some of the comments they have made in the past, they would likely say that none of this stuff is important because it doesn't facilitate getting your players to monsters that they can kill. I'm not being flip, Mearls and Noonan actually said in one of the podcasts, talking about world economies, that matters like that really are pointless because the game is about people going to kill monsters, and you shouldn't dwell on details like that because they aren't part of the "fun" of D&D.
Which is not to say that freelancers like Ed, Eric, and Brian don't think about these things. |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 14:51:20
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
say that none of this stuff is important because it doesn't facilitate getting your players to monsters that they can kill. I'm not being flip, Mearls and Noonan actually said in one of the podcasts, talking about world economies, that matters like that really are pointless because the game is about people going to kill monsters, and you shouldn't dwell on details like that because they aren't part of the "fun" of D&D.
except with trade come coins which equals treasure hoards that monsters create when the monsters chow down on a passing caravan or three, which the adventurers find when they slay said beast
Or are we expected to believe that coins just 'magically' appear when you kill the critter along with +1 sword and the 4 potions the beastie 'drops'
Or perhaps we must assume that coins are in fact living creatures that can breed and replicate themselves, therefore resolving any need to have a coherent reason why this beastie has 452,324,672,628 gold coins in his lair? As an aside who would think up a creature that looks like a 'coin', can breed with any other 'coin' they meet as they are hermaphrodites, and both 'coins' go their merry way carrying eggs which hatch a few months later creating more 'coins' (oh that would Ed again! )
Of course certain people just want to kill-loot-spend, kill-loot-spend (repeat ad nauseum) without any thoughts for anything else except for gaining levels and 'finishing the game' (hmmm starting to sound like a computer game again, not that 4E is of course modelled on any computer game) but I prefer my games with a little more thought
Each to their own.
Just my thoughts
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
Edited by - crazedventurers on 02 Feb 2008 14:54:02 |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 14:58:57
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I'm not being flip, Mearls and Noonan actually said in one of the podcasts, talking about world economies, that matters like that really are pointless because the game is about people going to kill monsters, and you shouldn't dwell on details like that because they aren't part of the "fun" of D&D.
In their opinion! In my opinion it is part of the fun of D&D for me.
If all people want is 'kill the monster, grab the loot' why do you need a setting at all? All that is needed is a dungeon in a wilderness with a city to buy things in. Nothing else is required. That Mearls & Noonan think that killing monsters is the way to have fun in D&D may explain many of the features of 4E Realms.
Wait a minute, how sily of me, of course a setting is needed. Otherwise WotC wouldn't be able to sell it. [/sarcasm] |
Edited by - arry on 02 Feb 2008 15:12:50 |
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Shilo99
Seeker
63 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 15:27:57
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
You know, it occurs to me that we've probably spent more time discussing this matter than, well, people that should have, and given some of the comments they have made in the past, they would likely say that none of this stuff is important because it doesn't facilitate getting your players to monsters that they can kill. I'm not being flip, Mearls and Noonan actually said in one of the podcasts, talking about world economies, that matters like that really are pointless because the game is about people going to kill monsters, and you shouldn't dwell on details like that because they aren't part of the "fun" of D&D.
Ouch!
But we DMs (at least) like to know about & talk about such things. And such knowledge of a world should exist at least somewhere if people (WotC and others) are going to be writing adventrues, supplements and novels in the setting. They (and we) need context!
S |
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Shilo99
Seeker
63 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 15:32:13
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Like most on the list, I’m dismayed by the 4e vision of the Realms.
It saddens me that the realms is moving towards a hybrid of Dragonlance (draconian nation) and Eberron (spellscars=Dragonmarks, Chondath/changelands=Cyre/Mournlands). A crazy wacked-out world with less internal consistency than I want in even my fantasy worlds, and which exists up to now.
They’ve played it pretty smart in leaving the Heartlands & North (relatively) untouched, with the exception of poor Sembia (the Shade fiasco is the first thing I’m ret-conning/Tule Zero-ing from 4e FR…they definitely got rid of the wrong survivor state in blowing up Halruaa and elevating Shade). Draining the Inner Sea is plain weird & unnecessary.
And I agree with Rinonalyrna Fathomlin: the 4e setting is most definitely post-apocalyptic!
Why did they nuke FR so hard?
Well, it seems they obviously wanted to include all the elements of 4e into the Realms setting. Why would they want this? I’m pretty sure its related to the fact that the designers were initially going to make FR the default 4e setting.
Still, this article piqued my interest in a number of ways:
I’m happy with the fate of the Shadow Weave at least: and that it didn’t get it all its own way.
I actually don’t mind the idea of Abeir: it’s a bit more grounded than Tymanther coming from a random place (am I right in saying that Tymanther is from Abeir too?) Perhaps the mulans, turami, orcgate orcs & other gated in cultures also came from this sister-planet Abeir??
Hmm, the more I think about, the more I like the idea of this parallel world as a place for adventure. I can see say 4e Sildeyuur having a home there, maybe. Perhaps some Netherese or (even better) Imaskari enclaves (maybe even latter-day Solon, after it was nuked in Toril??). I’m no great fan of Maztica (too derivative as MarkusTay said), but would be OK to see it in Abeir.
OK, maybe I’m just being optimistic & trying to see a silver lining!
S |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 15:34:52
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In all fairness, if you listen to a few of the podcasts, Mearls actually is kind of fond of FR, and when he was talking about Elminster and other NPCs in the Realms, and capturing the Realms feel when playing, he seemed to actually "get" the setting. Noonan on the other hand was pretty clear that in a lot of his games people don't like to roleplay much and really just want to jump into the action.
Notice how the guy that seems to have a better grasp on the setting is working on monsters and not the FR setting . . . 
I'm not saying that Noonan's group is wrong in how they play D&D. It makes perfect sense that people fall in different areas of a given spectrum, and this has always been true of D&D. What concerns me is that, just like they are heavily modifying FR to distill a "core" Forgotten Realms experience, WOTC also seems to want to distill a "core" D&D experience that is more narrowly focused than the game has been in the past, and it deems that this distillation is closer to Noonan's group dynamic.
If that's what the largest number of D&D players want, then I guess it make sense to go that way, but I'm not convinced that FR is the perfect vehicle to showcase this specific D&D experience. |
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Dragon Features: Magic in the Forgotten Realms
