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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 13:51:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
There's always just knocking the guard unconscious and tying him up in a closet.
Not if your game has any connection to reality.
Check how many real world special operators are taught to silently knock people out without permanent damage. You'll find a notable lack of them.
Do you know why? Because a blow to the head that's powerful enough to cause unconsciousness also has a good chance of causing death. And it's nowhere near silent or certain.
I know bad movies have many people believing that there's some sort of secret hero method of knocking foes unconscious instead of killing them, but it doesn't really work. Sorry.
Silently disabling a sentry is brutal, bloody and difficult. And if done right, it leaves him dead. That's just the way the world works.
Some people might like to play in roleplaying games where uncomfortable truths are smoothed over and moral choices are black and white, instead of a muddled shade of gray, but I can't stand that. Sugarcoating things immediately destroys all semblence of my suspension of disbelief, because I'll sooner believe in magic, gods and dragons than I'd believe in a world that was fair, just and nice to everyone. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 14:33:52
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Oh, I never said that it wouldn't be healthy for the guard.
Usually it all depends on the player. If they knock the guard into negative hit points, they are unconscious. The players could, if they are ultra good, make sure the guard's stabilized. Most won't, though.
I like using this as a DM so that, unless the coup de grace or tie them up, the guard has a chance of waking up and setting off the alarm. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 15:09:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Oh, I never said that it wouldn't be healthy for the guard.
Note that it's also unlikely to succeed. Hitting someone on the head will probably not prevent him from crying out and making a racket. Hitting someone hard enough to cause instant unconsciousness might, but that's pure luck.
Relying on luck gets people killed.
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Usually it all depends on the player. If they knock the guard into negative hit points, they are unconscious.
Might be. Might be that the guard is wounded, but not prevented from crying out in pain.
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
The players could, if they are ultra good, make sure the guard's stabilized. Most won't, though.
In the real world, that takes a qualified medic and a good portion of time at the very least and several pieces of high-tech machinery and an overnight stay at a hospital at worst.
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I like using this as a DM so that, unless the coup de grace or tie them up, the guard has a chance of waking up and setting off the alarm.
I prefer to use a different gaming system, since D&D appears to me to be badly equipped for the purpose of simulating the kind of action that I want in my games. I've never been able to visualise D&D combat or even find some way to fit it into my imagination. As far as I can see, it's a purely gamist system that simulates miniatures combat.
As such, it is in my opinion a poor fit for a story-driven world like the Forgotten Realms, where the characters and people inhabiting it are supposed to feel real to us. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Glantir
Acolyte
Germany
8 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 18:14:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Hitting someone on the head will probably not prevent him from crying out and making a racket.
Might I also add that undead can be cheap and expendable backup 
As you might have guessed: My current character is not good aligned  . |
Edited by - Glantir on 20 Aug 2008 18:17:42 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 16:47:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
The willingness to act for the greater good regardless of the cost to yourself, your reputation and your peace of mind is a much better mark of 'Good' than adherance to an abstract principle like 'never kill innocents'.
Only if you actually think about what you're doing. Although of course, that should apply to either "side".
Just pointing that out. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 25 Aug 2008 16:49:21 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 18:37:28
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With no alignments mechanisms, 4E may be more friendly to "evil-PCs" campaigns than 3.x was, but there are so much "heroic fantasy" assumptions in D&D that "good" characters are the safest way to go. |
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Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 19:34:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Sian
depends on the race, class, character scheme, group, DM and a couple of other things
True. Myself, I generally play Lawful Neutral, because those seem to be the kinds of characters I like to play, and they tend to be able to co-exist with almost most alignments.
As for the Lawful Good trap, nobody I've ever played with has ever fallen into the 'whine for peace, snivel for justice' thing that some people seem to feel that Paladins should fall into, except for one thief who played it up deliberately, and preached at everyone. The Realms are a dangerous place, and the self-righteous flavour of Lawful Good is a luxury that few can afford. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 20:34:08
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| Lawful Good doesn't have to be played as "self-righteous." |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 21:24:29
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| Exactly. There are a few different flavours of Lawful Good, but many people seem to get caught on the 'self-righteous' one, at least at first. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 23:49:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Only if you actually think about what you're doing. Although of course, that should apply to either "side".
Just pointing that out.
Acting in a way that can bring harm to other people without thinking about the consequences sounds to me like a fine working definition of evil.
Being evil is easy, but it's really hard to be good. To be good, you actually have to work towards it, whereas humans tend to default to being selfish, dumb and evil. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 00:55:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Acting in a way that can bring harm to other people without thinking about the consequences sounds to me like a fine working definition of evil.
Being evil is easy, but it's really hard to be good. To be good, you actually have to work towards it, whereas humans tend to default to being selfish, dumb and evil.
Which is why we all need critical thinking. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Nilus Reynard
Learned Scribe
Canada
137 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2008 : 08:01:36
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| I usually play Chaotic Neutral or Neutral Evil. |
Nilus Reynard
Doom Master of Beshaba, Hand of Despair.
P24 Hm CN
(2nd Edition AD&D) |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 16:55:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Ugly is the new black
I went with Lawful Good. You'd think that it would be the most common alignment, but it's often hard to find people who want to play it. It's like people see the words lawful and good, and they avoid it like the plague so as not to cause themselves (or the group) some kind of moral dilemma. I mean, it's not like a lawful good fighter is going to wax intellectual with you about the consequences of hacking an orcish raider to bits. By and large, even Paladins in D&D tend to believe that morals should applied on the end of a sword. I don't know where people got the idea that lawful good translated into "boring", but in my opinion, that's what's happened. And that's unfortunate, because I think they can be really fun to play.
love,
nathan.
My own experience is that people more commonly translate Lawful Good as either 'Stupid' or 'Hypocrite'. Especially if the character is a paladin -- they've got to be either a moron or a bigot, and if you don't play them that way "You're not doing it right!"
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 16:57:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My fave evil alignments are NE and LE, because for me, those are the easiest to grasp. The neutral alignments I generally don't mess with.
Really?
CE seems fairly easy to grasp, at least for the less-intelligent types. "I will kill you slowly and laugh at your pain! MWUA-AHAHA!" |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 16:07:36
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| In my experience the default alignment for pc's is CG, then you can claim to be a hero without having to worry about listening to any pesky authority figures. |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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RRELIN
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2009 : 15:07:19
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| Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil. |
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shandiris
Seeker
61 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2009 : 16:25:14
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Me as a DM, threw the whole alignment thing out of the window. For a very simple reason, it's too relative. I'll give a real world example here:
Is Al'Quaida "evil"? I'm betting they themselves dont think so, but most people would say yes.
Was the dutch resistance " good" during World War II? Currently living people would say yes, but I wondered what the germans from those days would have said.
So to save the paladin/blackguard and all other abilities relying on aligment. Players have to write 20 things which are evil to their characters and 20 which are good and so on...
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Drew
Acolyte
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2009 : 08:39:22
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| I picked NG as the one I've played the most... however my favorite alignment is LE... its just so much fun to play... What are you gonna do mister paladin? I havn't broken any laws, yet... |
The noblest fate a man can endure is to place his body between the home he loves, and wars desolation. |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2009 : 19:51:48
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quote:
Originally posted by shandiris
Me as a DM, threw the whole alignment thing out of the window. For a very simple reason, it's too relative. I'll give a real world example here:
Is Al'Quaida "evil"? I'm betting they themselves dont think so, but most people would say yes.
Was the dutch resistance " good" during World War II? Currently living people would say yes, but I wondered what the germans from those days would have said.
Personally, I don't like trying to sort out real world events and groups with D&D alignments. The real world has layers of perspective and what is evil to one group of people is not to another group.
I enjoy being able to have defined good and evil in my fantasy setting... because it is fantasy. There are things about it that clearly cannot exist in reality, so I don't try to impose realistic standards on concepts of good and evil on the world or thrust my personal beliefs into others' faces through a roleplaying game.
Good guys are the good guys and bad guys are the bad guys. Yes, there are twists and turns and depth to characters, enabling them to be heroes and still do bad things or even be villains and occasionally do good things. But in the end, the bad guys are evil because that's the way they were defined. If they stop being evil, then they aren't bad guys anymore. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2009 : 04:39:30
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I picked NG because it allows the most freedom to do what is right without being a zealot or overly rebellous to order. When I play the alignemt I play within the system when it suits the character and play against it when it isn't in my character's best interest to do so.
However, Lawful Good and Lawful Neutral are probably tied for 2nd with Chaotic Good 3rd. |
Edited by - Ghost King on 22 Mar 2009 04:40:15 |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2009 : 19:53:52
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| I usually play NG or CG. I don't like playing characters that have to rigidly follow a command structure or the laws of a (often corrupted) kingdom. I like to play characters that fight for what is right over what is legal. I have also played a couple of CN characters, but I'm not very good at roleplaying that alignment unless I just make the character straight up crazy. |
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Lord Necro
Acolyte
18 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2009 : 22:47:33
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Chaotic Evil.
because its good to be bad
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"Time? time has no meaning to the dead..." ~ Necro Lazerus, Male Moon Elven Shade/Lich.
"Life is but a cloak we wear fleetingly.." ~ Etrius Lazerus, Male Moon Elven Shade. |
Edited by - Lord Necro on 23 Jul 2009 22:50:17 |
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Darkstar Daimonizomal
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2009 : 05:57:53
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In real life, I am Lawful Good to a fault.
However in games (CRPG), I am a total psychopath.
What a complete dichotomy!
The best (nicest) I have ever finished is NE.
But, am extremely loyal to my companions as long as they do not gripe to much about my wanton, psychopathic killing after everyone is used up or tics me off.
If I really love the companion in the game, I might feel slightly guilty killing them off if they complain too much - but, they have to be put in their place...ummmm grave.
It is so bad not even my daughter is immune who I love very much.
When she was three, I created a special mod with her as the central character and we played it together.
At the end of the game, I asked her if she thought I would kill her as the central character of the game or rally to her cause.
I killed her and she cried for entire week.
She still, almost ten years later, has never forgiven me for it.
It is the only time I have ever had true remorse in a game.
~ Darkstar |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2009 : 19:54:42
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I've always felt neutral evil is the most evil of the evil alignments, and thus my favorite evil alignment... its not restricted by either law or chaos, just evil for its own sake (whereas that whole chaotic evil thing is about out of control crazy evil that doesn't appeal to me on a fun level).
To each his own.  |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2009 : 19:58:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkstar Daimonizomal
It is so bad not even my daughter is immune who I love very much.
When she was three, I created a special mod with her as the central character and we played it together.
At the end of the game, I asked her if she thought I would kill her as the central character of the game or rally to her cause.
I killed her and she cried for entire week.
She still, almost ten years later, has never forgiven me for it.
Also, is it wrong that I find this funny? I mean, I feel bad for your daughter on one level, but at the same time, a part of me feels like "Good, someone who is committed to playing their role and didn't alter their gaming choices as a result of real life concerns!"
Of course... I probably wouldn't have done the same thing as you, and I would have resented myself for not being as committed. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Darkstar Daimonizomal
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2009 : 03:46:32
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It is not wrong to find it funny.
I still find it funny as well (more like a nervous chuckle?) except for the part of hurting her feelings.
I am still committed to playing my true role in games no matter what the consequences are.
(I asked her how she felt about it a couple of hours ago and she said it still makes her angry.) 
~ Darkstar
quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
quote:
Originally posted by Darkstar Daimonizomal
It is so bad not even my daughter is immune who I love very much.....
Also, is it wrong that I find this funny? I mean, I feel bad for your daughter on one level, but at the same time, a part of me feels like "Good, someone who is committed to playing their role and didn't alter their gaming choices as a result of real life concerns!"....
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2009 : 04:41:40
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IRL, LG. In D&D, most of my characters are CG or CN, but I've been known to play LG or LE on occasion.
quote:
Originally posted by Brynweir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, as I've said before, I want to one time try playing a single NE character in an otherwise good-aligned group. It has the potential to be very interesting.
Been there - done that. They all died - I didn't.
In response to Wooly: That sounds like fun, as long as there are no evil-detecting paladins in the party...otherwise, you got some 'splainin' to do...
Brynweir, I like your response to Wooly... that's what happened in my experience too, except that I was playing a CN drow Fighter/Mage/Thief (this was in 2E). There were nine of us at the beginning of the session, and I was the last one standing. I only killed two of my fellow party members; the others were done in by other party members or (in two cases) monsters.
quote:
Originally posted by Warrax
I always thought the alignment system in DND was absolutely horrible and a complete waste of time. It's nice to think of a guide-post description of your actions but codifying them into categories that share similar characteristics is just... it seems to rob the individual experience of its identity. Motivations change for people based on events in their lives and can dramatically alter a person's approach to a given situation.
<chop>
But then, the conventional 9 alignments of DND tend to miss character types like the anti-hero; find me a good alignment that appropriately encompasses that archetype. CG doesn't cut it by its listed definition, for example, and neither does it fit into any of the neutral or evil categories. *shrugs*
Warrax, I have to agree with you there. That was something I always liked about the Palladium alignment system: its ability to account for the anti-hero. That being said, I think that there are failings with it, too... and for a game like D&D, I still think that the 9-alignment system is best. The simplified 4E system rubs me completely the wrong way, equating law with goodness and chaos with evil. My favourite counterexample to that is RL, so I won't post it here, but most of you can probably guess what it is; it's from late-first-half-20th-century. (Mods: Hopefully I'm not *crossing* that line there; I know I'm perilously close.) |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 31 Jul 2009 04:46:40 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2009 : 06:51:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Brynweir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, as I've said before, I want to one time try playing a single NE character in an otherwise good-aligned group. It has the potential to be very interesting.
Been there - done that. They all died - I didn't.
In response to Wooly: That sounds like fun, as long as there are no evil-detecting paladins in the party...otherwise, you got some 'splainin' to do...
Brynweir, I like your response to Wooly... that's what happened in my experience too, except that I was playing a CN drow Fighter/Mage/Thief (this was in 2E). There were nine of us at the beginning of the session, and I was the last one standing. I only killed two of my fellow party members; the others were done in by other party members or (in two cases) monsters.
Well, the way I want to do it, the other party members would know -- or at least suspect -- that my character is evil. But he's careful to make sure that he doesn't do evil around them. He's more than willing to be ruthless and to do whatever it takes, but he does it when no one is looking.
Being evil doesn't mean being a bad guy 24/10. And it doesn't preclude working well in a group, either. |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2009 : 06:56:43
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I've always been a fan of Lawful Good. At least, when it's played properly and not by someone that says, "I have to kill him because he's evil and I'm a paladin." Where was that ever said?! Where does this mentality come from?!
Also, here's a fun link for you guys about alignment. I'm not sure if it's ever been listed here before, but here you go. |
Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
Edited by - Joran Nobleheart on 31 Jul 2009 11:35:03 |
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Auzoros
Seeker
Australia
97 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2009 : 10:05:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
Which alignment are you most likely to play?
Hmm...for a good character I lean toward NG as I find them to be flexible do-gooders. For a bit of fun I like CN for the simple fact I need not much excuse to do anything...don't think just act (or react). For an evil character, it would be NE for the selfish, no loyalties approach. |
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Alignment
