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wozniak1995
Acolyte
United Kingdom
19 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Oct 2013 : 17:03:23
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I have read online that larloch is neither a lich nor a demilich but apparently has found a form beyond the two... is this true? I thought that there is only lich, demilich and archlich (which is not applicable here).
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Edited by - wozniak1995 on 09 Oct 2013 17:06:45
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2013 : 18:17:45
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| there are reasons that he is called the Uber Lich...... don't know what those reasons are.... but they are there |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2013 : 18:50:10
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| There are many other flavors of lich, but what, exactly, Larloch is, has not been detailed. He is quite possibly a unique form of lich. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2013 : 19:18:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There are many other flavors of lich, but what, exactly, Larloch is, has not been detailed. He is quite possibly a unique form of lich.
Isn't he the Lar-lich? |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 00:17:31
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I hear he can lich anybody.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 00:35:29
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Is this 3.x, 4th or 5th edition information? Its new to me. As far as I know he's "just" a lich. An extremelly powerful one at that, but a lich non the less.
I see some posible solutions or answers:
1) Every Faerūn lich is unique, with a unique set of abilities and such. (Monsters of Faerun)
2) He is actually a Aka-lich from Immortal Handbook, Epic bestiarium
3) Perhaps he is indeed a demi-lich in disquise.
4) He is some form of undead he created him self through foul craft. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 02:51:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There are many other flavors of lich, but what, exactly, Larloch is, has not been detailed. He is quite possibly a unique form of lich.
I think that's more than likely the case.
Some of Ed's replies on the subject would seem to suggest that Larloch is somewhat beyond the powers and perceptions of Mystra's Chosen. Which in itself would suggest that Larloch's lichdom status allows him to occupy a "special position" that is all his own -- and not something that can be easily categorised with respect to how we traditionally view liches.
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 11:28:23
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Maybe the source where you read it got confused because he sometimes is called an Ultra-lich, though afaik its never defined what an ultra-lich is.
If you take a look at his writeup in Lords of Darkness he is a male human lich, so I would say its the standard lich template as long as there is no new write up of him. |
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wozniak1995
Acolyte
United Kingdom
19 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 14:52:46
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| Yes the source that i got my information about larloch seemed to referece the Ed Greenwood post about him that i've read recently... the Ultra-lich status that he was given by Greenwood simply intrigued me and i didn't know if he was called that due to being an extremely powerfull lich or because he has achieved an alternate form of lichdom that somehow transcends the lich and even the demi-lich status since he has bound a few to his will |
Edited by - wozniak1995 on 10 Oct 2013 14:55:18 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 17:09:15
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I would define an 'ultra-lich' as a Lich who has achieved Exarch status (with or without the help of a 'patron').
The Sojourner was another ultra-lich.
An ultra-lich is to liches what dracoliches are to dragons. In other words its the, "oh crap, what the hell IS THAT?!" level.
Which makes me now ponder the ultra-dracolich.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Oct 2013 17:10:30 |
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wozniak1995
Acolyte
United Kingdom
19 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 17:41:47
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| Daurgothoth might fit that description |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 18:11:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The Sojourner was another ultra-lich.
Pretty sure he was alive, not undead. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 18:43:34
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Oh yeah.. he was just sorta lich-like in appearance (since old-school Gith look like undead, and he was an ancient, shriveled version of one of those).
If he were already dead, that would have changed the entire story LOL. 
How about Iouluam (sp?) He's definitely a Lich+ (ultra-lich)! |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 18:57:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I would define an 'ultra-lich' as a Lich who has achieved Exarch status (with or without the help of a 'patron').
The Sojourner was another ultra-lich.
An ultra-lich is to liches what dracoliches are to dragons. In other words its the, "oh crap, what the hell IS THAT?!" level.
Which makes me now ponder the ultra-dracolich.
What about demi-drocoliches? A floating red-dragon skull with gem fangs and eyes... that would make me leave that dungeon! :) |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 19:13:24
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| It was hinted, well setup might be a better word, in a Realms novel that we just might be seeing more on Larloch. I certainly hope so myself. :) |
Edited by - Eilserus on 10 Oct 2013 19:14:09 |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 21:50:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Oh yeah.. he was just sorta lich-like in appearance (since old-school Gith look like undead, and he was an ancient, shriveled version of one of those).
If he were already dead, that would have changed the entire story LOL.
How about Iouluam (sp?) He's definitely a Lich+ (ultra-lich)!
Indeed. Vhostym was 10,000 years old, so he had clearly used magic to extend his life far beyond the lifespan of normal Gith. Plus he had that terminal illness which had been slowly killing him for centuries. I think of him as being like Matron Yvonnel Baenre, withered and decrepit looking to signify that he no longer belonged in the mortal realm.
As for Iolaum, he's probably the creepiest looking thing on Faerun right now. I would love to see him use his Elder Brain status to take over an aboleth's mind and become even weirder! |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 22:14:43
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Ah, so we got to name all the three Big Name Undead Epic Uber Casters:
- Larloch the Ultra Lich and his mysterious purpose(s) (he has slightly different characteristics then normal liches, no one knows if he has a phylactery (or phylacteries) and what that (or those) may be and he has THE undead army of legend and fantasy, complete with scores of liches, vampires and other powerful undeads that are just his servants);
- Daurgothot the First Reader and his quest for uber dracolichdom (he wants all the breath weapons of dragons and he wants to procreate) and creation of HIS draconic subrace (i wonder if he's still around after all this time, heck after 110-120 years of nothing but research he might have finally succeded and 5e is "everyone fight for survival against super duper dracoliches");
- Iolaum, an undead illithid elder brain, 'nuff said;
I wonder where the Twisted Rune went and what became of Shoon VII and the Keeper of the Thaalud (is the Tomb-Tapper Tomb still around? or did the Shade plunder it)? |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 02:50:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I would define an 'ultra-lich' as a Lich who has achieved Exarch status (with or without the help of a 'patron').
The Sojourner was another ultra-lich.
An ultra-lich is to liches what dracoliches are to dragons. In other words its the, "oh crap, what the hell IS THAT?!" level.
Which makes me now ponder the ultra-dracolich.
What about demi-dracoliches? A floating red-dragon skull with gem fangs and eyes... that would make me leave that dungeon! :)
How fricking old would that demi-dracolich have to be? I mean, a dragon already lives practically forever compared to a human that would become a lich.... and a demi-lich is a lich that lasted so long that its bonds to the world are fading. I'm thinking a demi-dracolich would have to be a draco-lich that's been around multiple millennia (say 4 thousand years... or enough time to make Elminster look young). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 03:34:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I would define an 'ultra-lich' as a Lich who has achieved Exarch status (with or without the help of a 'patron').
The Sojourner was another ultra-lich.
An ultra-lich is to liches what dracoliches are to dragons. In other words its the, "oh crap, what the hell IS THAT?!" level.
Which makes me now ponder the ultra-dracolich.
What about demi-drocoliches? A floating red-dragon skull with gem fangs and eyes... that would make me leave that dungeon! :)
Scarily, the concept of demi-dracoliches is NDA... according to Ed, who responded to a query about such lich-types back in 2006.
I have this little tidbit, too, from Brian "Garen Thal" Cortijo on the subject:- "A demidracolich would have to have a minimum spellcaster of 21, which means you need a very old dragon, or a reasonably old dragon with levels in sorcerer (or both). The numbers will work out to about a CR of 37--as an estimate--at which point the game has usually already broken down on a massive level."
Truly a frightening concept. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 04:16:04
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I consider Larloch to be demi-divine...meaning, while not a God in the sense that he needs worshipers; he has reached a point of "ascending" beyond the normal concept of undeath. I put him in ranks higher than Vecna had reached, or even more powerful than Velsharoon or any other being that decided on godhood.
The reason being, Larloch is beyond even the limits of godhood in his power; though not a planar power obviously...he has no need of worshipers and is seemingly never to fall to the depths of a demi-lich or to pass with time.
In AD&D terms he is a "Hero-God" though obviously not a hero. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 08:59:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Larloch is beyond even the limits of godhood in his power;
Do you mean in your homebrew realms?
Because nothing in official lore even suggests this. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 09:32:06
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I would define an 'ultra-lich' as a Lich who has achieved Exarch status (with or without the help of a 'patron').
The Sojourner was another ultra-lich.
An ultra-lich is to liches what dracoliches are to dragons. In other words its the, "oh crap, what the hell IS THAT?!" level.
Which makes me now ponder the ultra-dracolich.
What about demi-drocoliches? A floating red-dragon skull with gem fangs and eyes... that would make me leave that dungeon! :)
Scarily, the concept of demi-dracoliches is NDA... according to Ed, who responded to a query about such lich-types back in 2006.
I have this little tidbit, too, from Brian "Garen Thal" Cortijo on the subject:- "A demidracolich would have to have a minimum spellcaster of 21, which means you need a very old dragon, or a reasonably old dragon with levels in sorcerer (or both). The numbers will work out to about a CR of 37--as an estimate--at which point the game has usually already broken down on a massive level."
Truly a frightening concept.
Would a link to this post of Ed's be possible? I would very much like to read it.
Indeed that would mean that the game would be high end epic, but there are so many other nasty things at that level so... I have never read about one or seen one in any sourcebooks, but I'm guessing someone like Daugothos "Creeping Doom" would be a likely candidate... yes? |
Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 11 Oct 2013 09:33:40 |
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wozniak1995
Acolyte
United Kingdom
19 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 09:51:19
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| Is it true that Larloch is going to make an appearance in Ed's upcoming novel "The Herald"? Also i just read about the demi-lich Shoon VII, he seems like a powerhouse at level 36+ necromancer... anyone know what he's up to recently? I imagine a guy like that would definitely get Larloch's attention. |
Edited by - wozniak1995 on 11 Oct 2013 12:42:20 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 12:52:41
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Might as well have Larloch "repair" the Weave. Or maybe that's what's he's going to do (with the help of Mystra's remaining Chosen) in preparation for 5E? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 13:30:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
It was hinted, well setup might be a better word, in a Realms novel that we just might be seeing more on Larloch. I certainly hope so myself. :)
I hope we do. I would love to read more about Larloch. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 14:00:38
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There is also Tan Chin (Ambuchar Devyam) from Solon, over in the Hordelands region. He was one of the first emperors of Shou-Lung, is a special* Lich, and has returned from 'true death' at least twice already. Don't know precisely what his stats were (I believe he is written-up in LEoF), but considering how old he is, and the things he's done (created at least TWO armies of golemic soldiers), I'd say he was pretty damn uber.
There is also that Lich that was in the Calimemnon(sp?) Crystal, but he should be obliterated as of the end of 3e (Spellplague did him wrong, me thinks). I personally had him as a pre-drow dark Elf, but thats entirely homebrew.
*Because of the nature of his Lichdom, I had pegged Tan Chin as a Suel Lich, and even theorize he had spent time among the Suel (Greyhawk) to learn it, and IIRC, Brian James was enamored with that conclusion (making it demi-psuedocanon? LOL!) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Oct 2013 14:02:56 |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 14:14:23
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quote:
Originally posted by wozniak1995
Also i just read about the demi-lich Shoon VII, he seems like a powerhouse at level 36+ necromancer... anyone know what he's up to recently? I imagine a guy like that would definitely get Larloch's attention.
In 2e he was infiltrating the Cowled Wizards of Amn and he was trying to uncover the identities of the Runemasters of the Twisted Rune to get a hold and control that secret organization too. This plans were confirmed in 3e Lost Empires of Faerun if i remember right.
Then he disappeared from the radar, together with a host of other powerful, behind the scene, movers-and-shakers of the Realms (like the aforementioned Daurgothot or the Twisted Rune or the Knights of the Shield) never to be seen again. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 15:42:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I would define an 'ultra-lich' as a Lich who has achieved Exarch status (with or without the help of a 'patron').
The Sojourner was another ultra-lich.
An ultra-lich is to liches what dracoliches are to dragons. In other words its the, "oh crap, what the hell IS THAT?!" level.
Which makes me now ponder the ultra-dracolich.
What about demi-drocoliches? A floating red-dragon skull with gem fangs and eyes... that would make me leave that dungeon! :)
Scarily, the concept of demi-dracoliches is NDA... according to Ed, who responded to a query about such lich-types back in 2006.
I have this little tidbit, too, from Brian "Garen Thal" Cortijo on the subject:- "A demidracolich would have to have a minimum spellcaster of 21, which means you need a very old dragon, or a reasonably old dragon with levels in sorcerer (or both). The numbers will work out to about a CR of 37--as an estimate--at which point the game has usually already broken down on a massive level."
Truly a frightening concept.
Would a link to this post of Ed's be possible? I would very much like to read it.
There really isn't much point. Aside from the Lady Hooded One reposting the original query, Ed's only response was that such information was guarded by NDA.
I'll find the original post if you still wish. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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wozniak1995
Acolyte
United Kingdom
19 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 16:09:14
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| Last time i read about larloch i noticed something about him wanting to control a vast network of portals... is that still his primary focus or have we had no mention yet? |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 22:25:46
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Larloch is beyond even the limits of godhood in his power;
Do you mean in your homebrew realms?
Because nothing in official lore even suggests this.
No, not in my homebrew...in his actions. He is ancient, yet no where near falling to the passage of time.
My guess is that he essentially "feeds" on the other liches under his control and maintains himself this way. He has reached a state of being somewhat beyond undeath and yet not truly godlike.
But because he has no need of worshipers for his power, he is even beyond the gods in his base of power: immortal without need of worshipers. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2013 : 03:38:38
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quote:
Originally posted by wozniak1995
Last time i read about larloch i noticed something about him wanting to control a vast network of portals... is that still his primary focus or have we had no mention yet?
Pretty much.
So far as we still know, thanks largely to Ed's kind answers... Larloch MAY have some plots, but if he does, they're so wide-reaching, complicated, and clandestine that virtually no one in the Realms [including the Chosen] knows what they are.
One of his current 'plots' revolves around controlling portals and portal networks throughout Faerūn. He's looking at controlling the gates indirectly. In the sense that he'll be doing a couple of things:-
1. Monitoring people movement; who goes where and more importantly, why;
2. Putting in place magics to control creatures or people using 'his' portals, or at the very least access their knowledge/memories;
3. Using his knowledge of portals and portal networks to bring groups or individuals into conflict and thereby benefiting from the fallout.
All of this is intended to be done without the hand of Larloch being apparent.
...
We really haven't learned all that much about this since Ed first spoke of it a couple of years ago. |
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Larloch
