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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 15:17:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Gazza
The rehash or pictures annoyed me. We not get new ones ?
There was also some vital information missing from the book. There was some history events not listed, such as some of the organisation (Kraken, Iron Throne, Men of Baskilisk etc), Magister information, deity information. There was some important Date of Birth info let out as well, dates of town settlements etc. Some cities/places just appear in the timeline with no mention of their construction date or back history.
I know. For example, Elminster doesn't have a birth date, and Brian R. James explained to me on the WotC boards that the lack of such a date was an error. Understandable.
This should explain, though, why I was all the more annoyed (slighly annoyed, but still) by entries like "Wulfgar returns to Icewind Dale" when there are no doubt far more interesting/important (and dare I say it, less Drizzt-centric?) entries that could have been included.
Well, R.A. Salvatore has made them lots of money...scads and lots! So I can see why they would pay special attention to his books. On the other hand...ol' RAS wouldn't even have written about Drizzt if it hadn't been for Ed Greenwood...so it was a simple mistake to leave out El's birthday.
I've always been amazed at how some folks (myself included) think of some characters as so famous that EVERYONE knows about them if they live within Faerun...but how famous are these folks really?
Look at Drizzt: until he went to sea and fought pirates he wasn't really all that well known outside of perhaps Icewind Dale and the environs of Mithral Hall...and his time aboard the Sea Sprite was my least favorite "era" of his life. Even after this though...how many common people even know he exists I wonder?
Look at Elminster: well...what can be said really. He is known all over the Heartlands, the Moonsea area, Waterdeep, Aglorand...well, the list could go on and on! The reason he isn't as "famous" in our world is that fewer folks like to read about old men who wear dresses and cast spells around. Yeah, WE know he is cool and they are called robes...but the newer folks to fantasy may or may not (I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say most do I guess). But long greybeards with hairy ears probably aren't as cool to them as a gritty dark elf on the edge who can fight anyone in a straight up fight and come out the winner.
So I guess the gist of all this raving like a lunatic is: Drizzt makes money even with people that don't read anything else about the Forgotten Realms...and that is only my personal opinion...so ya can't change my mind about it! ;-) |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 16:21:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. JamesThe desire to bridge the history of Imaskar and Shou-Lung resulted in a new survivor-state arising from the ashes of the old: Anok-Imaskar. While naming its leader, I though it fitting to choose a Candlekeep Scribe for whom I have great respect (and an appropriately exotic last name  )
Emperor Kujawa is crowned in -2487, expands the empire in -2300, and dies in epic fashion in -1943.
Aaah Brian,
Your gonna make me get all warm and fuzzy. I'm still a bit surprised you decided that it was me that you wanted to add to the book. I'm not complaining just surprised. There was another game designer who, and no I can't name his/her name because I gave him/her my word that I wouldn't so basically I'm under a unsigned NDA :), who had the same idea in place once upon a time and oddly it involved the imaskari as well. Strange coincidence. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 06 Oct 2007 16:43:21 |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 16:30:34
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| Emperor Kujawa... strategist, leader, and catalogue-man in the free time |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 20:55:29
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Finally found myself some time to start reading the Grand History and…
Brain, George & co,
First of all, GREAT WORK. My compliments, and I echo most of the things said about this fantastic tome of lore for fans of the Realms.
Yet now to something I encountered when reading through the book:
GHotR pages 70, 71 and 72:
321 – Ashar Tornamn named King of Valashar
356 – Swift campaign against Valashar (Shoon) ends with Tornamn’s death, Shoon Empire shrinks back to Giant’s Run Mts.; sacking of Ithmong by Azoun I
Ok, so no problem  , but then…
358 – Shoon VII and Iryklathagra battle in Valashar
this would seem slightly conflicting with Valashar as a realm more or less overrun and destroyed by Azoun I’s forces…
361 – Both Shoon VII and Cormyr decide to extend their borders into the Western Heartlands
wait, first there was the expansion, than Azoun I chases the
Shoonites back, and merely a few years later they go expand again… well, I guess one could somehow explain this logically…
366 – Shoon VII and Iryklathagra go at again in Valashar
I guess this one could still fit
367 – Shoon VII ‘dies’
no problem here…
375 – Ashar Tornamn begins 15-month march north into the Western Heartlands to expand Shoon Imperium
??? wait a second, Ashar Tornamn, wasn’t this the guy executed in
356 DR…? I guess resurrection at play, or raising dead, Shoon VII is a necromancer after all…
376 – Azoun I rides out against Valashar and battles them (Valashar and Shoonites) all the way to sack Ithmong
Cormyr rides out a second time to repeat what they accomplished in 358 – guess Azoun did not want the job left unfinished…
Does history repeat itself here with the same cast of actors? Or is this an error that crept in because of conflicting mentions in several products… nb, the side bar on page 72 refers to ‘the war between Cormyr and Valashar’ and the year 376, which could indicate a singular event – which when reading the several products seems what would have taken place…
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 22:36:58
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Thats why I will continue to use Brian's original - and far superior - source for all of my research needs.
Amazing what one man can do... and so many can f__k up. 
It was a great read though, and a fine final tome to complete my FR material.
Kudos to all involved. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Oct 2007 22:37:32 |
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Swordsage
Learned Scribe
149 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 22:47:58
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I think the original had this error also.
The Swordsage
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chance87
Seeker
50 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2007 : 03:47:11
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Brian, Ed, Tom, George, Eric:
Absolutely loved GHotR. I can spend days pouring over the pages; even though I've had copies of Brian's PDF over the last few years, I never realized how vast the interconnecting plot lines are, and the book really helps me get a grasp on what nations were extant/active at the same period in time.
My biggest "complaint" (well, aside from the entries for 1383 through 1385  ) is that the "links" aren't as complete as they could be. Example: the tomb of Hssthak is mentioned in c.-6000 and -2436; as far as I can tell (so far), that's the only reference, but I had to page back and forth to make sure the entries were dealing with the same locale. Were some of the links trimmed to conserve space? If/when GHotR is ever released in PDF format, mightn't someone at WotC do a little hyperlinking in the document so we can quickly click through specific entries while doing research? |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2007 : 04:15:32
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quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
So I guess the gist of all this raving like a lunatic is: Drizzt makes money even with people that don't read anything else about the Forgotten Realms...and that is only my personal opinion...so ya can't change my mind about it! ;-)
You have a point. With Drizzt on the cover of the book, people were wondering if WotC wasn't trying to entice fans of Drizzt to buy this book and learn about the Realms beyond Drizzt. So it makes sense that the book kinda caters to Drizzt fans and has entries for events that fans of the wider Realms (rather than just Drizzt) wouldn't consider that significant on the timeline. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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ShepherdGunn
Seeker
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2007 : 11:35:44
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Well, I was of the understanding that there was supposed to be a Drizzt short story originally scheduled with the book. I may be wrong on that though. (Wouldn't be the first time.) At least there wasn't a Prestige Class.
Also, as much as I'm against the mentality, you can't blame WotC for splashing him. I mean, if you have a money cow... milk it. Moo. |
"Man does not live by bread alone, likewise, blades and arrows aren't the only things that can kill him." |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2007 : 17:44:54
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Drizzt is a recognizable icon by the game, novel, AND VG fans, so it was a VERY sound business decision to use him on the cover. The source is designed to appeal to ANY fan of the setting, so I have no problem with Drizzt on the cover.
We were promised a Drizzt story, but the idea was canned when it became clear that there would be space constraints, and I for one am glad they opted for more LORE over a simple story.
My personal suspicion - We DID get the promised story; I think the prologue and epilogue from The Orc King was the original outline. They decided to put the spoilers in the novel, rather then the GHotR for whatever reason. I do NOT claim this is a fact - just a funny feeling about the whole thing. A story looking back over a century of strife would have been FAR more appropriate in a history book, after all....
I would LOVE for the FULL cover artwork to be posted somewhere <hint hint> - it would make a gorgeous desktop background.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Oct 2007 17:46:21 |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2007 : 23:19:32
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Great book, congrats. However, a few issues I have with this.
I don't think ALL the timeline events from every source was done. For example, I see no mention of Kozakura's events nor a Kozakuran timeline.
What would've been a great addition to this book is a "Calendar" for each continent or nation or some such. The Oriental Adventures calendar for Kara-Tur needs a serious update, for example. Faerun uses the Harptos Calendar, but I am quite sure other areas in the Realms use something different. It'd be nice to know what Zhakara uses or what Kara-Tur uses.
Brian, any chance you could convince WotC to work out something like this? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2007 : 20:50:15
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The different calenders and the equations required for conversion are covered right at the beginning of the book.
I have found another duplacate entry (beside the one for the Great Rift), along with several anomalies. I have been using highlighters to turn the book back into it's original form, and will be doing an entry-by-entry index for the original sources, which I will post 'somewhere' when it is complete.
Brian has announced another map forthcoming, so I can assume a wonderful Web Enhancement and perhaps an errata will be out soon. 
I would LOVE to see other events added as well, like the ones from Kozakura and a few Tabotan ones I've found. The GHotR mostly includes stuff from other official timelines, but a great many dates are given in the text of sources, most especially Kara-Tur.
And, of course, the inclusion of Ed's wonderful timeline from Dragon #228, which includes several never-before mentioned countries. I remember Krash telling Brian (and the rest of us in that thread) that he was trying to fit in the dates for the rise and fall of Tsharoon, which obviously didn't make the final cut.
There is a huge piece of history missing there, between the fall of Imaskar at the hands of the Gods, and the current situation in the Taan. It seems an Efreet (DoD) was primarily responsible for the destruction of the other Imaskari survivor states (Bakar, Bhaluin, Raurin, Solon, etc...) after the Mulhorandi gods blasted Nemrut into purple dust. It had something to do with the Efreet drying up the River Athis, so that all of the surrounding lands became dry and infertile. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Oct 2007 01:29:09 |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 01:15:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I don't think ALL the timeline events from every source was done.
If we included absolutely everything then I wouldn't be able to pen the leather bound GHotR Limited Collector’s Edition a few years from now. In all seriousness, I'm working on a web enhancement to flesh out one corner of Faerûn. No, I'm not permitted to reveal which corner exactly. Hopefully it's the first of many such enhancements. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 06:30:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
If we included absolutely everything then I wouldn't be able to pen the leather bound GHotR Limited Collector’s Edition a few years from now.
I want one! Please, bound in Highland goatskin, with full leather linings, art-gilt page edges, and at least three ribbon markers.
*goes to buy a new piggy bank to collect money for purchases to come*
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"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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oracleoftruth
Acolyte
1 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2007 : 17:02:35
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| Hi, there is something I noticed both in the FRCS and GHotR, according to the Roll of Years the year -33 should be the Year of the Harpist's Delight. But in both books it is mixed up with the Year of Slowing Sands which would be the year 33. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2007 : 19:03:03
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So,
I finally got my copy, yeah, I've been busy!, and so I wanted to say thanks Brian for the 3 entries. :)
Also, surprised no one brought up the Chosen of Tyche that is mentioned in the Dawn Cat entry or that Murdane was drowned by Umberlee! |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 25 Oct 2007 19:03:52 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2007 : 20:00:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
So,
I finally got my copy, yeah, I've been busy!, and so I wanted to say thanks Brian for the 3 entries. :)
Also, surprised no one brought up the Chosen of Tyche that is mentioned in the Dawn Cat entry or that Murdane was drowned by Umberlee!
I'm not done reading the book yet, but when I flipped thru it, I failed to note this. What page is this on? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2007 : 21:43:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
So,
I finally got my copy, yeah, I've been busy!, and so I wanted to say thanks Brian for the 3 entries. :)
Also, surprised no one brought up the Chosen of Tyche that is mentioned in the Dawn Cat entry or that Murdane was drowned by Umberlee!
I'm not done reading the book yet, but when I flipped thru it, I failed to note this. What page is this on?
64. It's one of Eric's side bars. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2007 : 23:09:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
So,
I finally got my copy, yeah, I've been busy!, and so I wanted to say thanks Brian for the 3 entries. :)
Also, surprised no one brought up the Chosen of Tyche that is mentioned in the Dawn Cat entry or that Murdane was drowned by Umberlee!
I'm not done reading the book yet, but when I flipped thru it, I failed to note this. What page is this on?
64. It's one of Eric's side bars.
Oh, that. Yeah, I had read it, but I promptly forgot about it. I was more than a little irked at the fact that once more, the whole issue of what really happened and when was dodged.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2007 : 23:34:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh, that. Yeah, I had read it, but I promptly forgot about it. I was more than a little irked at the fact that once more, the whole issue of what really happened and when was dodged.
Indeed. I read that side bar, and it didn't stick in my mind precisely because when I finished reading it, I had learned almost nothing about the Dawn Cataclysm that I didn't know before (which was also almost nothing). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 25 Oct 2007 23:34:52 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2007 : 18:27:50
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Sounds like a political speach.
Maybe Eric should run for office. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ulicus
Acolyte
United Kingdom
18 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2007 : 19:53:13
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So... is there any more information on the Dark Three as mortals?
I seem to remember that having been mentioned, though I might be mistaken. |
"Bane" = "Xvim" = Cyric, Prince of Lies |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2007 : 23:18:49
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Just a few scattered bits in sources like Faiths & Avatars and Faiths & Pantheons. Mostly, we only know of their times after ascension. There's still plenty to learn about their time as the mortal "Dark Three."
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 00:59:00
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I know we didn't have room for a full index, so the links were used instead. I don't believe any were trimmed to conserve space. Come to think of it, I do have a document that contains a bunch of the cross-references. Give me a few days to pretty it up and I'll post it. It might be usefull as a mini-index of the Grand History. I really like the hyperlinking idea, but I honestly have no idea when they will release a PDF of the Grand History.
quote:
Originally posted by chance87
Were some of the links trimmed to conserve space? If/when GHotR is ever released in PDF format, mightn't someone at WotC do a little hyperlinking in the document so we can quickly click through specific entries while doing research?
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Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 01:01:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I would LOVE for the FULL cover artwork to be posted somewhere <hint hint> - it would make a gorgeous desktop background.
Me too! In fact I would love my wife to buy me a framed copy of the artwork signed by Todd Lockwood that I can hang on the wall. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 01:07:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Ulicus
So... is there any more information on the Dark Three as mortals?
Eric Boyd’s vignette in the Grand History p.46 describes the Dark Three's slaying of Borem of the Lake of Boiling Mud while they were mortals. My recent Realmslore article on Ironfang Keep describes the Dark Three's subjugation of Haask, Voice of Hargut. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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ShepherdGunn
Seeker
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 10:43:53
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| So is the Dark Three thing new? I don't remember seeing anything about them before the mention in the GHotR, and now in the Iron Fang Keep write up. |
"Man does not live by bread alone, likewise, blades and arrows aren't the only things that can kill him." |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 11:23:44
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The concept of the Dark Three is nothing new. As I mentioned earlier, there have been hints in pre-existing Realmslore, dating back to 1e/2e, regarding Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul in the period before their ascensions.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 11:24:01
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quote:
Originally posted by ShepherdGunn
So is the Dark Three thing new? I don't remember seeing anything about them before the mention in the GHotR, and now in the Iron Fang Keep write up.
The dark three are Bane Bhaal and Myrkul. Together they ploted to achieve godhood. You can find some more info here:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10224
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"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Ulicus
Acolyte
United Kingdom
18 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2007 : 20:23:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Eric Boyd’s vignette in the Grand History p.46 describes the Dark Three's slaying of Borem of the Lake of Boiling Mud while they were mortals. My recent Realmslore article on Ironfang Keep describes the Dark Three's subjugation of Haask, Voice of Hargut.
Okay, thanks. I'll check out the article. :)
I don't know why, but for some reason I thought that we were going to get exact dates on when they ascended and the like.
I probably just read too much into the "want to learn more about the dark three during their time as mortals?" bit. |
"Bane" = "Xvim" = Cyric, Prince of Lies |
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A Grand History of the Realms (product)
