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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 21:00:01
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The best answer to that is -
It exists, since nothing in 3e contradicts it, and the rule is that all of 2e lore IS canon UNLESS contradicted.
However, a LOT of people hated it, so they refrain from mentioning it directly, thereby keeping all sides happy by 'skirting' the issue. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Sep 2007 17:44:10 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 21:42:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
However, a LOT of people hated it, so they refrain from mentioning it directly, thereby keeping all sides happy by 'skirting' the issue.
Bah. It had nothing to do with people liking or disliking the setting -- as I pointed out previously, with boxed sets, modules, sourcebooks, novels, MC appendices, and magazine articles, there were obviously many people that liked it.
To quote Eytan, from another thread:
quote:
Originally posted by EytanBernstein
It's somewhat of a general precedent that we don't go into detail about non-supported settings. When doing the writeup for Dretchroyaster in DoF, I skirted around references to the remains of one of the ships. I think it's just an effort to not include information about something that can't be further supported by the current production slate.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 01:25:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Question for Brian (or any other authors) - The stuff about the Shou emigrating from another world was NOT included? Does that mean a little ret-conning might happen (some we wouldn't actually mind)? Just wondering because it makes little sense that the Tuigan came from the east, when the Shou migrated from the west (are they emigrating back and forth or what?)
No ret-con necessary. It will likely be inserted into official lore at some point in the future (possibly a Realmslore article). Remember, just because something isn't included in the Grand History doesn't mean it didn't happen.
The Taangan (of which the Tuigan are but one group) are descended from the Lung which migrated to the Far East following the Dawn Ages. Millenian later, tribes of barbarian Lung settled Taan (c. -8900 DR), likely driven out of their ancestral hunting grounds in the east by monsters or dwindling natural resources. The ancestors of the Shou did not arrive on Toril until much later—when they were abducted by Imaskari slavers during the period of Shartra (-4370 DR to -3920 DR). As the Shou drove futher east following the fall of Imaskar, they either displaced or intermarried with the local Lung peoples. Modern Shou are thus a mix of High Imaskar, Lung, and proto-Shou (possible Chinese earth culture) bloodlines.
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Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 01:27:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur
I do have a question I have made it about half way through going from cover to cover and so far I have not noticed any spelljammer references directly.
Check out the entry for 623 DR (Year of Nightsilver)  |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Ioulaum
Acolyte
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 01:33:03
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No offense to Brain and the other designers but i really the stuff they added in the end. Otherwise a great work.
I am going to express that dislike of the 4th ed to the marketing dept at Wotc by tearing out the last page and write "********" on it. I Plan to mail it to wotc to let them know this is the last cent they get form me. I have been a loyal customer since 2nd ed but this is it.
i don't know who is the idiot who came up with these stupid ideas but 4th ed is going to be the end of FR not just as we know it, but period. I can't imagine a better way to kill off FR then how they are doing it now.
Mod Edit: Watch the language please. 
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Edited by - The Sage on 27 Sep 2007 01:46:53 |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 17:39:32
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At the risk of seeming like a nit-picker...
Being inspired by reading the Grand History (great, absolutely great product. Just what I've been looking for since I began purchasing Realms-products) I started work on compiling some notes for a timeline of the (almost) forgotten continent of Zakhara.
Now, while the dates in Land of Fate (which is as far as I've gotten for now) are pretty much all of the 10/50/100/several centuries/in the time of the nth Caliph's rule and so on, I think that there's a conflict with the Grand History (albeit a minor one that I've already devised three "corrections" that wouldn't alter the later, and therefore more correct, source)...
According to the "Huzuz" entry in Land of Fate, the first Grand Caliph found the scrolls with the Law of the Loregiver "600 years ago." So if one assumes that the Zakharan material is set at roughly the same time as the FR-material published simultaneously, I can't see how an enlightened Grand Caliph could have taken any part in the "Scouring of the Utter East" event (in 629 DR if I remember correctly - haven't got the book with me here). |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 17:40:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Ioulaum
No offense to Brain and the other designers but i really the stuff they added in the end. Otherwise a great work.
I am going to express that dislike of the 4th ed to the marketing dept at Wotc by tearing out the last page and write "********" on it. I Plan to mail it to wotc to let them know this is the last cent they get form me. I have been a loyal customer since 2nd ed but this is it.
i don't know who is the idiot who came up with these stupid ideas but 4th ed is going to be the end of FR not just as we know it, but period. I can't imagine a better way to kill off FR then how they are doing it now.
Yeah, that kind of behaviour would definately make you seem like someone worth listening to . |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 17:55:19
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I've noticed a few problems as well. Originally this book was supposed to come out in December, if I recall.
Does that mean it was 'rushed'?
If so, then perhaps they should come out wih a second 'Collector's edition' (leatherbound?), with NEW art and proper editting. Also, put back the color-coding AND the list of the Roll of Years. 
The entries for Sammaster are broken, which is only a minor peave at this point.
The tidal wave picture was kinda funny, but the one on pg. 141 is a slap in the face. If you interpret it correctly, it says - -
"This is what he would look like... IF he looked different".
WTF? 
I remember when D&D was aimed at an intelligent audience.
Sorry Brian, no offense to YOU what-so-ever - your ORIGINAL is, and will always remain, my favorite FR resource. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ioulaum
Acolyte
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 20:53:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
quote:
Originally posted by Ioulaum
No offense to Brain and the other designers but i really the stuff they added in the end. Otherwise a great work.
I am going to express that dislike of the 4th ed to the marketing dept at Wotc by tearing out the last page and write "********" on it. I Plan to mail it to wotc to let them know this is the last cent they get form me. I have been a loyal customer since 2nd ed but this is it.
i don't know who is the idiot who came up with these stupid ideas but 4th ed is going to be the end of FR not just as we know it, but period. I can't imagine a better way to kill off FR then how they are doing it now.
Yeah, that kind of behaviour would definately make you seem like someone worth listening to.
It isn't a matter if they will listen to me. I doubt they would listen if i wrote the worlds most elquent letter. They only sound wotc listens to is the sound of money.
I am just expressing my disapproval of what they plan to do and let them know their plans just cost one customer.
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Gazza
Acolyte
Australia
1 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 06:13:36
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I purchased the Grand History as well. I loved the cover and that fact that it contains only info. It is well worth buying.
The rehash or pictures annoyed me. We not get new ones ?
There was also some vital information missing from the book. There was some history events not listed, such as some of the organisation (Kraken, Iron Throne, Men of Baskilisk etc), Magister information, deity information. There was some important Date of Birth info let out as well, dates of town settlements etc. Some cities/places just appear in the timeline with no mention of their construction date or back history.
Some info was doubled up, such as references to the starting dates of the Witches of Rasheman.
The book is well worth buying. But there is still a lot of information that was left out that should not have been.
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Cammie since 2005 |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 16:28:04
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| The caption for the picture on page 52 was supposed to say Udoclian, University of the Invisible Art in Naarkolyth. The sphere in the background is a structure not a tidal wave. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 16:33:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
The caption for the picture on page 52 was supposed to say Udoclian, University of the Invisible Art in Naarkolyth. The sphere in the background is a structure not a tidal wave.
You mean the High Magic ritual didn't pick up the water like a giant water balloon and drop it on top of Jhaamdath?  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 19:43:21
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
You mean the High Magic ritual didn't pick up the water like a giant water balloon and drop it on top of Jhaamdath?
Too bad... it was much funnier that way.
Also, any news on what pic was supposed to be used instead of that warfoged? Just curious....
And I didn't notice any mention of Tsharoon... or any of the other timeline events from Dragon #228 - probably one of the best and most informative issues of all time.
I would have thought them important, considering how many 'lost' kingdoms are discussed therein. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Sep 2007 19:47:20 |
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Daviot
Senior Scribe
USA
372 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 03:53:16
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| I was pleasantly surprised to see the Maztican references in the AGHotR, but dang, I don't remember all the sea-elf undersea warring going on. Apparently I missed the 2nd Ed "Sea of Fallen Stars" that's referenced as the source in the prototype .pdf version, because all I seem to remember about the sea elves was their polite glossing-over in Races of Faerûn. |
One usually has far more to fear from the soft-spoken wizard with a blade and well-worn boots than from the boisterous one in the ivory tower.
My Tabletop Writing CV. |
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ShepherdGunn
Seeker
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 08:25:52
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I have recently gotten the GHotR, and I'm reading it cover to cover. I think this book is great! Excellent work, Brian. Actually, looking over the book, I've found it useful on two aspects. It's keeping my 3.5 books alive and well for a long time. I now have a decent enough timeline and understanding that I can run a Nethril, Imaskaran, or Jhaamdathan campaign, and have it last a few "generations".
Also, I found the notes on to the "future" information to be interesting and presented in such a way that some of my major fears are somewhat abated... somewhat. Not an easy task. I'm paranoid by nature. Once again, Excellent Work. Yeah... the art was rehashed, and not always the best choice... but now I have a map of the 12 Cities of the Sword! |
"Man does not live by bread alone, likewise, blades and arrows aren't the only things that can kill him." |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 22:15:30
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| Cry! I wanted to get my copy and they've told the comic guy that the book has been sold out since release! He's been trying to get me a copy for the past two weeks! |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 22:19:17
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Kuje, you don't like Amazon ? |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 23:44:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Kuje, you don't like Amazon ?
I try to support the local small stores if I can. :) Especially the comic store since it's he's been in biz for 20 years now and it's a small store that he runs by himself. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 00:40:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I try to support the local small stores if I can. :) Especially the comic store since it's he's been in biz for 20 years now and it's a small store that he runs by himself.
I tried to do that before, but I came to the conclusion that I don't get any benefits from the local store, just a higher price.
For example, I can get better reviews on the web than from the guys over there. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 06 Oct 2007 00:42:34 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 00:49:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I try to support the local small stores if I can. :) Especially the comic store since it's he's been in biz for 20 years now and it's a small store that he runs by himself.
I tried to do that before, but I came to the conclusion that I don't get any benefits from the local store, just a higher price.
For example, I can get better reviews on the web than from the guys over there.
Not lookin for reviews and the comic guy gives me a better discount on WOTC or RPG products then Amazon. Course, not sure how long that'll last due to the ruling the supreme court came to awhile back. But this isn't a place to discuss that.
Also, of course I use amazon for novels or the like because most of the time the chain stores don't have the freaking novels. Speaking of, I need to put in another novel order to amazon. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 06 Oct 2007 02:11:04 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 00:51:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I try to support the local small stores if I can. :) Especially the comic store since it's he's been in biz for 20 years now and it's a small store that he runs by himself.
I tried to do that before, but I came to the conclusion that I don't get any benefits from the local store, just a higher price.
For example, I can get better reviews on the web than from the guys over there.
I do both, myself. If it's a Realms product, or something that I have to have as soon as I can lay hands on it (like a new BattleTech Technical Readout), then my FLGS gets my money. If it's something I want pretty bad but can wait on (like Total Warfare, for BattleTech), I go thru Amazon or some online retailer. If it's something I only kinda want (like when I was getting the Complete X books), then I go thru eBay. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 05:27:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
I want to know if Kuje has found the 'Easter Egg' I left in the Grand History. Hint: It has his name written all over it
I swear, I think I saw that Easter Egg in the book! But I don't recall exactly where it was... |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 05:31:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
There's one thing I'm very not happy to see added to canon in the book : NWN1 Wailing death plague.
It could have been worse.
There could have been entries about Aribeth.
Honestly, I liked how NWN1 was handled. I also spotted the Netheril city of Undrentide (from the NWN: Shadows of Undrentide) on the Netheril map! I enjoyed that. I didn't find any references to NWN: Hordes of the Underdark, though.
My other major nitpick (aside from the post-1375 entries, and the at times strange reused artwork) is the heavy about of Drizzt related stuff which is nice to know, but not really that significant in terms of Realms history--for example, there is actually an entry for Wulfgar returning to Icewind Dale. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 05:33:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Reefy
My favourite one is 'Starbrow' that comes out as 'Shardrow', which seems almost too fitting given the events leading towards 4E.
Oh yeah! I noticed that myself. Seems like a Freudian slip to me. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 05:39:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Gazza
The rehash or pictures annoyed me. We not get new ones ?
There was also some vital information missing from the book. There was some history events not listed, such as some of the organisation (Kraken, Iron Throne, Men of Baskilisk etc), Magister information, deity information. There was some important Date of Birth info let out as well, dates of town settlements etc. Some cities/places just appear in the timeline with no mention of their construction date or back history.
I know. For example, Elminster doesn't have a birth date, and Brian R. James explained to me on the WotC boards that the lack of such a date was an error. Understandable.
This should explain, though, why I was all the more annoyed (slighly annoyed, but still) by entries like "Wulfgar returns to Icewind Dale" when there are no doubt far more interesting/important (and dare I say it, less Drizzt-centric?) entries that could have been included. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 06 Oct 2007 05:40:50 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 05:42:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Kuje, you don't like Amazon ?
I try to support the local small stores if I can. :) Especially the comic store since it's he's been in biz for 20 years now and it's a small store that he runs by himself.
That's nice of you. I hope you get the book soon. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 06:12:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I try to support the local small stores if I can. :) Especially the comic store since it's he's been in biz for 20 years now and it's a small store that he runs by himself.
That's nice of you. I hope you get the book soon.
Thanks. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 15:13:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
I want to know if Kuje has found the 'Easter Egg' I left in the Grand History. Hint: It has his name written all over it
I swear, I think I saw that Easter Egg in the book! But I don't recall exactly where it was...
The desire to bridge the history of Imaskar and Shou-Lung resulted in a new survivor-state arising from the ashes of the old: Anok-Imaskar. While naming its leader, I though it fitting to choose a Candlekeep Scribe for whom I have great respect (and an appropriately exotic last name )
Emperor Kujawa is crowned in -2487, expands the empire in -2300, and dies in epic fashion in -1943.
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Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 15:16:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
Well met
Well i finally got my copy of the tome and must say i'm very impressed and very happy to see this outstanding work as an official product
Thanks also, Brian, for the nod to Candlekeep 
Thanks Alaundo! I am very happy to promote Candlekeep and its Scribes whenever I can. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Topic |
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A Grand History of the Realms (product)
