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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 20:44:41
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Actually, it was more of a 'author DEM' that did that
Qilue: Haha! I made sure to forsee all of this and warned my Goddess ahead of time!
And Eilistraee isn't reckless? Her bright idea: Send a conflicted novice murderer on the most important mission ever undertaken by a priestess...
Man, I'm missing Pharaun...he and Q'arlynd would make such an interesting duo...except while Q'arlynd has some morals, Pharaun was actually extremely evil |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 20:54:54
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Speaking of personality and character, the IMHo best portaits of drow society in the WotSQ series were Danifae and Valas. The rest were just the "extremes" to either side of what is possible.
Most of the Eilistraeens in SotW were much like I expect them to be, i.e. NOT blinding cool looking half stupidly acting 'dancing naked in the moonlight' drow females. Reading the novel will help setting them into a right view. IMHO.
One major plus of the novel is a fair use of divine magic, something that rarely gets a mention - healing aside. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Braveheart
Learned Scribe
Austria
159 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 21:33:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
Qilue: Haha! I made sure to forsee all of this and warned my Goddess ahead of time!
She didn't foresee anything. Vhaerauns plots just aren't perfect... sometimes 
I guess/hope we'll see more of Pharaun in Thomas Reid's trilogy.  |
Jarlaxle: "Do keep ever present in your thoughts, my friend, that an illusion can kill you if you believe in it."
Entreri: "And the real thing can kill you whether you believe in it or not." |
Edited by - Braveheart on 08 Feb 2007 21:35:41 |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 22:04:56
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| It's because Qilue is one of the perfect, beautiful, foreseeing Seven....God, I hate the Seven. And Pharaun and Ryld were probably two of the best Drow portrayed together I've seen. Fascinating pair |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2007 : 23:12:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
Cynicism aside. I have just placed an order for Sacrifice.. and also Ghostwalker. I'm buying Sacrifice mostly to keep up to date with the happenings of the Realms drow but I'm already fearing that I won't approve of the events the book will relate. (Although that isn't to besmirch the author's writing, which will probably be enjoyable.)
I don't think you'll be disappointed. This novel isn't about gods running around killing each other, it's about interesting characters having to interact with people they don't know and don't trust...and yes, it's very much about mortals who worship Eilistraee. In spite of my own fears about this book, I've found the story to be highly enjoyable. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2007 : 23:16:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
Man, I'm missing Pharaun...he and Q'arlynd would make such an interesting duo...except while Q'arlynd has some morals, Pharaun was actually extremely evil
That's what I like about Q'arlynd...he's ultimately self-serving (and therefore, believable), but he's also sympathic enough for me to root for him without feeling somehow "dirty" afterwards. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2007 : 23:35:53
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| Pharaun wasn't sympathetic, per se, but he was tons of fun to read about and root for. He wasn't 'go out of my way to kick puppies' bad, he was 'do what I want to do now and have fun doing it,' bad. Plus, he did seem to have some morals. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2007 : 23:39:21
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| *shrugs* Not enough for me, I guess. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2007 : 18:41:07
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| Not like Q'Arlynd's much better himself, though. He's responsible for the horrible death of his brother and doesn't really feel too bad about peoples' souls getting consumed by a ritual he's helping in. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2007 : 19:17:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
Not like Q'Arlynd's much better himself, though. He's responsible for the horrible death of his brother and doesn't really feel too bad about peoples' souls getting consumed by a ritual he's helping in.
Never said I thought he was a nice guy, he's just not bad enough for me not to feel any sympathy for him. But again, this is all just how I personally registered these characters. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2007 : 21:14:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I don't think you'll be disappointed. This novel isn't about gods running around killing each other, it's about interesting characters having to interact with people they don't know and don't trust...and yes, it's very much about mortals who worship Eilistraee. In spite of my own fears about this book, I've found the story to be highly enjoyable.
I think you're right. After all, isn't a book that lives up to expectations predictable? And good fiction should keep readers guessing.
Even though Selvetarm dies in this book, I recall that Lolth died in Pauk Kidd's Greyhawk novel Queen of the Demonweb Pits. (And lets not forget Orcus.) More than a few gods have a tendancy of not staying dead.
So, although it'll be with some trepidation that I'll read this book it'll also be with interest and curiosity. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2007 : 22:11:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
I recall that Lolth died in Pauk Kidd's Greyhawk novel Queen of the Demonweb Pits.
She didn't die in that novel and WOTC, if I recall right, has said that that novel isn't canon for Greyhawk, which is backed up by the current material for Greyhawk since Lloth is in the core material and the WOTC produced Greyhawk material. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 10:03:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
She didn't die in that novel
I hate to contradict but she definitely died in the novel. I've just checked it.
Quote: Page 286 "On any plane but here, she was immortal." The text then goes on to describe Lolth falling into a portable hole filled with holy water.
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
WOTC, if I recall right, has said that that novel isn't canon for Greyhawk, which is backed up by the current material for Greyhawk since Lloth is in the core material and the WOTC produced Greyhawk material.
If it's not canon the why did WotC publish it?
That said, it was a terrible novel and its exclusion from Greyhawk canon is very understandable. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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FlyingGnome
Acolyte
Germany
2 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 14:20:04
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I really don't like the direction where that story is going. Looks to me as if this will end up in another "yipee the good ones always prevail" novels. And that after Mister Kemp so perfectly saved the WotSQ series from becoming just that in the end..
I'd really be displeased to say at least to see the evil deities weakened. While loosing Selvetarm is still bearable to me, loosing Vhaerun or seeing Lloth weakened or destroyed  wouldn't. The followers of Lloth have been seeing their backsides kicked in so many of the previous books.. time of troubles, failed invasion of Mithril Hall, Lloth's silence and thus the fall of Ched Nassad, that they really should not end up having their deity wiped out or having Elistraee becoming the new super godess of fluffyness... If any such should occur i'll just close my eyes, hold my ears shut and repeat "its not canon" to myself whilst rocking back and forth.
I really hope that it won't come to that. I for myself hope that Lloth had this planned so far, getting angry at Eilistraae's "lucky" throw and Selvetarm's end wouldn't suit a chaotic deity, she'd have been more likely highly ammused by the twist. On the other hand Eilistraee as chaotic good deity taking up the portfolio of a chaotic evil one doesn't seem all too logical either.
I'd wish to see Halistra becoming Lloth's new champion as "reward" for some major betrayal that leaves Elistraee weakened in the future of that series. But somehow i already see her at the top of the "not so dark anymore" Seldarine instead and the drow coming en masse to the surface to strip naked and dance hand in hand .... |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 14:33:26
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| I understand that everyone has their own opinions on all of this, and that people like things the way they are, and I respect that. That having been said, I'll only make two comments in regards to this. Its the first book of a trilogy. And I personally doubt that the end point of this story will be to turn the majority of drow into surface dwelling "good guys." |
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Arkhaedun
Senior Scribe
869 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 14:54:36
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I posted this comment in the final thread of the Sacrifice of the Widow book club, and I'm reposting it here just for the sake of reference. Thanks all who are participating, and thank you for your attention in this matter:
A few friendly reminders about the Book Club and the CoC:
While it is perfectly alright to state that you don't like a given book, or even to say that you are not a fan of a particular author, comments that that indicate, for example, that "you should have know this book would turn out this way because X wrote it," are on the verge of being a direct insult to the author. This is not allowed at Candlekeep, and I would ask that you do your best to refrain from dismissive comments about the authors "pattern" of writing.
Also, while it makes perfect sense to reference game material from time to time in such discussions, long digressions into game rule disputes should be avoided. This is the Forgotten Realms book club section of the keep, and when roleplaying sourcebooks come in to reference they generally should be used as a reference, and not take precedence over what is actually being discussed in the novel at hand.
Finally, while it makes sense to discuss the novels that have obvious ties to a given series (for example, in this case, the WOTSQ books), lets all make sure that our primary comments in this particular thread mainly have to do with the book and series in question, and don't drift back into too much of a critique of another book or series.
Thanks. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 17:52:11
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quote:
Originally posted by KiaransalynI hate to contradict but she definitely died in the novel. I've just checked it.
Quote: Page 286 "On any plane but here, she was immortal." The text then goes on to describe Lolth falling into a portable hole filled with holy water.
If it's not canon the why did WotC publish it?
That said, it was a terrible novel and its exclusion from Greyhawk canon is very understandable.
What I meant is even though it "says" she died in that novel, she really didn't because current Greyhawk material says otherwise. There's a lot of material, for all settings, that have been overwritten.
However, my main point is Lloth on Hawk never died even though the novel "claims" she did. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 11 Feb 2007 18:05:20 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 01:50:16
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I understand that everyone has their own opinions on all of this, and that people like things the way they are, and I respect that. That having been said, I'll only make two comments in regards to this. Its the first book of a trilogy. And I personally doubt that the end point of this story will be to turn the majority of drow into surface dwelling "good guys."
Even this first book isn't quite "good guys take all"--there is plenty of evidence suggesting that any victories for Good are a lot more nuanced and complicated than they at first seem to be. I have the feeling there is a LOT more going on than meets the eye in Sacrifice of the Widow.
And it doesn't help that the apparent protagonist, Cavatina, has her own fair share of moral failings, such as pride and jealousy. I was surprised when--near the end of the book--she was hoping for praise and a reward for her actions in the exact same way the amoral Q'arlynd did. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 01:53:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
If it's not canon the why did WotC publish it?
Good point...it's seems, though, that the "novels are canon" rule doesn't always seem to apply if WotC doesn't want it to. For example, I'm not completely certain about this, but I keep hearing that the Eberron novels aren't canon the way FR novels are. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 02:14:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
If it's not canon the why did WotC publish it?
Good point...it's seems, though, that the "novels are canon" rule doesn't always seem to apply if WotC doesn't want it to. For example, I'm not completely certain about this, but I keep hearing that the Eberron novels aren't canon the way FR novels are.
I've heard that more then once of various boards as well. I believe even Keith Baker, the creator of Eberron, has said as much as well. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 02:49:31
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| He was actually discussing this at the Worlds of D&D forums, and asking fans of the novels if they would like them to be considered canon in the same way that Realms novels are. Also, in the past, DragonLance designers kind of picked and choose what they considered canon when game products were concerned (although now it appears that the whole novel is suppose to be canon). |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 03:05:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
If it's not canon the why did WotC publish it?
Good point...it's seems, though, that the "novels are canon" rule doesn't always seem to apply if WotC doesn't want it to. For example, I'm not completely certain about this, but I keep hearing that the Eberron novels aren't canon the way FR novels are.
I've heard that more then once of various boards as well. I believe even Keith Baker, the creator of Eberron, has said as much as well.
That isn't entirely correct.
Some of the recent events in both the Sharn and another trilogy for the EB setting have either directly contradicated some of what was published as canon in Sharn: City of Towers and/or the EBCS itself, or referenced material that hasn't been published yet.
It's for this reason, that he asked what KJER noted above.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 12 Feb 2007 03:10:19 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 04:58:02
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Redirected from this scroll:- http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8847
quote:
Originally posted by Trizzt08
So what did everyone think of the book. I liked it. It threw lots of curveballs at me and I loved every minute of it. Eilistraee finally made some power moves taking out Selvetarm and defeating Vhareun and taking his portfolio increasing her worshp once everything settles down. oh and my prediction is that Lolth and her end with a draw and neither dies. Elistraee might go CN but I doubt that too. maybe something like Mystra's situation where she accepts previous worshippers of Vaherun regardless of alignment
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Trizzt08
Acolyte
USA
20 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 05:08:00
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| wow you guys are fast and thank you I was gonna cut & paste but you beat me to it |
My god says you can't do that |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2007 : 20:56:18
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| Well, I'm yet again a few months behind in my reading <g>. Just finished it, and my first thoughts are Vhaeraun's gone.... hmmm, he was a lot like Mask. I can see Mask possibly posing as an alias of Vhaeraun somehow, providing his worshippers with spells and spreading heresy about Eilistraee. I mean, both had shadow.. they were both tricksters... they're both on the run from something... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Sacrifice of the Widow (Possible Spoilers)
