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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 01:07:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
*chuckles*
The lore is diverse enough for many understandings on the few canon facts provided.
That's true as well. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 09:57:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
The 10 percent of all Drow clearly would not be the same in every city, it is indeed unlikely 1,000 Eilistraee Drow live in Menzoberranzan. CoV however has Darksong Knights operating in that city and other Lolth dominated cities. Not sure which print date you are refering to that you claim makes absolutely no mention of Eilistraee Drow in Menzoberranzan.
Incidently, I skipped through CoV only two days ago and read the Darknsong Knights stuff, no mentioning of Eilistraee in Menzo though.
If there was any great activity or folk venerating the Dark Maiden, or even a priestess working there, one would expect her being mentioned in either the Menzoberranzan box (no entry), Drizzt do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark (no entry), or Underdark (again, no entry). The first box actually has quite a detailed account on various inhabitants of Menzo, from gemcutters to poison dealers. It also tells us of a Ghaunadaur priest and various Vhaeraunians.
So from what we know of that city, no Eilistraeen that we know of is working there. That is essentially what I said.
You are invited to scan the list of known drow NPCs of the Realms [url=http://www.dnd-gate.de/gate3/page/index.php?id=420]HEREABOUTS[/url]
For the reason of keeping this record up to date, I tend to ask for exact page numbers and sources, not to bother anyone around  |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 14:17:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
If there was any great activity or folk venerating the Dark Maiden, or even a priestess working there, one would expect her being mentioned in either the Menzoberranzan box (no entry), Drizzt do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark (no entry), or Underdark (again, no entry).
Well I can offer this http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/pg20021106a which does appear to indivate some Eilistraee presense in the city.
quote:
Among those who would not follow Lolth are the rare good-aligned drow, who are the least well-equipped for survival. Without resorting to tactics of treachery or assassination, these drow must somehow make their way in an evil and corrupt society.
quote:
Followers of the goddess work clandestinely to find likely candidates for rescue and shepherd them along the path to the Night Above.
It would be nice to find one named living in the city, but so far I can not find one.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2007 : 18:35:35
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Since we're talking about the Dancing Lady and her folk here... just how ruthless are Eilistraeen in dealing with outsiders? I.e., say a group of adventurers (or woodcutters or elf hunters or whoever) stumbles across a small Eilistraeen comunity in Cormanthor. Just how nasty would the drow be in dealing with them? Would they kill them? Magically remove the memory from their minds? Or just send them from the community, with a stern warning against flapping their jaws about its existence?
I imagine the choice would be between brainwiping or death -- they may be good (or at least neutral), but Eilistree's drow have so many enemies I can't see them as being able to afford too much kindness in dealing with potential enemies. Not if they want the worship of the goddess (let along their families!) to survive. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2007 : 19:32:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
Since we're talking about the Dancing Lady and her folk here... just how ruthless are Eilistraeen in dealing with outsiders? I.e., say a group of adventurers (or woodcutters or elf hunters or whoever) stumbles across a small Eilistraeen comunity in Cormanthor. Just how nasty would the drow be in dealing with them? Would they kill them? Magically remove the memory from their minds? Or just send them from the community, with a stern warning against flapping their jaws about its existence?
I imagine the choice would be between brainwiping or death -- they may be good (or at least neutral), but Eilistree's drow have so many enemies I can't see them as being able to afford too much kindness in dealing with potential enemies. Not if they want the worship of the goddess (let along their families!) to survive.
Well the answer I offer is more of opinion. First of course it will depend some on the nature of the individual.
Dogma appears to indicate one should be quick with a smile (offer of aid), but even quicker with the blade in case Evil nears them. Ed does not see Eilistraee communities as part of his vision of things, just temples established (some a complex like the Prominade, others appear more likely a gather place for when the Clergy gather). There is an aticle Dragon 176 IIRC that is titled _If you need help, Ask the Drow_ that indeed presents the fact that aid is freely given, however a strong guard is maintained. A warrior, pacifist society is rather had to balance but such exists. I would not in a normal course of things expect to see the use of a mindwipe of any kind. The message is to be shared and spread though out the Realms, both underdark and surface.
I would suspect that earning trust would be hard, though with alignment detection the clearly Evil would not live to speak of an Eilistraee temple (posible community) those not removed would be allowed free passage to and from. Remmember that sword is always close to hand for a reason.
It would appear underdark Drow the Dark Maiden's followers would often seek to appear a follower of Lolth as far as the public is concerned only know a small circle of trusted people. It appears very posible that followers of Lady Silverhair might live a few miles appart and not know of each other. In many ways a cell spy system where no one member knows all of the rest. The only one that likely knows of followers are the deities themselves, however even they are not all knowning (other wise there could not be trator priesstess of Lolth).
The surface Drow, many disquised as Fair Elves, are almost certanly as covert that they do not know many followers.
In many ways one might consider followers as if members of a seceret order with no regional headquarters. Just groups of people that hear the Goddess and worship her and that gathers with those there are sure of publicly. Acts of good works at times made without metion of Eilistraee at all (more so when the follower is in disquse) and message not directly given. The message might be offered along the lines of repeating a Harper tale of Good Drow. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2007 : 22:55:50
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| The followers of Eilistraee aren't quick to trust, but that doesn't mean they would out-and-out kill people who just happened to stumble upon them. As for magically erasing memories...I rather doubt that, too, unless it's deemed necessary--part of winning people over to the faith is by teaching them that Eilistraee promotes kindness towards everyone, and the faith wouldn't spread as easily if people weren't permitted to remember that. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Acolyte
Australia
33 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 06:17:57
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| Despite all the happy dogma they seemed pretty ready to attack Dove without any benefit of the doubt in Silverfall. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 08:55:04
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If I were to give a "fanon" answer, I'd probably say that the reason so many people worship the Dark Maiden is because of Lolth's Silence and the Time of Troubles when so many people were forced to confront the visible proof that their deity is falliable. After the TOT, then the monolithic Lolth worshipping society we saw in Menzoberrazan was utterly destroyed and frankly people started exploring their options.
Lolth has lost MAJOR ground at this point.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 15:48:18
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I passed this thread to Ed, and he verbally responded to me with some points:
The percentage figures he gave are for ALL drow, so it would be incorrect in the extreme to look for 10 percent or more of drow IN MENZO to worship Eilistraee. Almost all Eilistraean worshippers are on the surface (and no, the Promenade is not the surface; it, BTW, is of course NDA because of the forthcoming Undermountain book).
Ed still holds the opinion that Lolth is the "strongest" and most dominant drow deity, and always will be (at least underground). He just chuckled at all of this debate, saying drow and the gods are the topics that always seem to get Realms fans in such an uproar. He finds it especially ridiculous when gamers try to portray him as the champion of Eilistraee, pitted against Bob Salvatore as the champion of Lolth. 
Yes, everything Ed says is canon until or unless contradicted by WotC-published lore. He IS the CREATOR of the Realms, folks (and the principal designer of the Menzo boxed set and the writer of DROW OF THE UNDERDARK, too).
All of which leads me to be very puzzled when anyone takes issue with Ed's opinions or statements regarding the drow. I don't recall any great rush of people telling Tolkien he got the Nazgul wrong, or telling McCaffrey she just doesn't understand the dragons of Pern...
love to all,
THO |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 11 Feb 2007 15:51:27 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 15:59:53
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded OneHe finds it especially ridiculous when gamers try to portray him as the champion of Eilistraee, pitted against Bob Salvatore as the champion of Lolth.
Anyone else picturing RAS as a big drider like creature facing off against Ed buck nekkid except for long silver hair and a sword? Just me? Okay . . . I'll get some help . . . thanks for the comment THO, regardless of the images it stirs up . . .  |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 16:05:41
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded OneHe finds it especially ridiculous when gamers try to portray him as the champion of Eilistraee, pitted against Bob Salvatore as the champion of Lolth.
Anyone else picturing RAS as a big drider like creature facing off against Ed buck nekkid except for long silver hair and a sword? Just me? Okay . . . I'll get some help . . . thanks for the comment THO, regardless of the images it stirs up . . .
Somehow I am going to get revenge on you for giving me that mental picture KnightErrantJR. To all those disturbed, place Our Sweet Lady of the Hood in the place of Ed and we got a nice Frazetta-like picture instead. Now that's soothing. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 16:22:01
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Good to see the Hooded One taking up with this topic too, in her own style. Or Ed's, for that matter.
Well, my issue with the WotsQ and LP is more a technical one, as it takes very (as in VERY) long time until real lore rather than novel material comes out. Not that it does matter that much and will influence many campaigns at all. But if you do "care" and have campaigns running along the official lines, it becomes somewhat difficult as a DM and player alike to play on the background of uncertainty for the better part of about 5 years now.
Most of the debates on Eilistraee and her worship could be avoided if people would have the option of reading all the great books available, which is, apart from those Ed / THO mentioned, also Demihuman Deities. The Lady Penitent novel gave a fine impression of the Eilistraeens too (well, that's the way I always perceived them), pretty much along the guidelines the lore provided to the author.
Obviously, goodly heroism provided by folk like Drizzt will always draw a fair audience, but it is neither representative about the drow of Har'oloth or in the Realms Above, as is explicitly said in novel and sourcebook alike. The problem is the number of novels on him that gets people on the ... let's say misleading track. And from that, the imagination sets off to pastures not belonging to the lore on the drow (as yet). In that respect though, some "fans" of the original drow fear that demand leads the Wizards to accept that trend and shake the drow and their pantheon about towards the "perceived" Eilistraee, Drizzt and Co.. Hence the mixed emotions prominent on here and over at the WizBoards. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 11 Feb 2007 16:24:34 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 16:31:37
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Honestly, I've never quite gotten how you can read a novel with Drizzt with any level of care at all and come away with the idea that most drow are good. I understand that many people are inspired by him to want to play good drow, but in defence of RAS, Drizzt, when thinking of his kinsfolk, is almost always thinking in terms of how debased and evil his people are. In fact, it seems to me that he's always been more likely to assume that orcs and goblins might have a spark of good in them before thinking the same is possible of drow. I'd almost imagine he would be more skeptical of Eilistraee worshipers than most novel characters, but perhaps I read things differently than others.
In regards to storylines being up in the air, the FRCS mentioned that the Retreat was over and elves would begin a Return, but the details of that really didn't come until the Last Mythal books came out, which was about five years after the FRCS. Aside from, well, the most recent issues in the LP series, which I won't go into, everything up to 1375 DR has really been more or less explained. Or at least to the degree that most campaigns should need them . . . yes, we didn't really get an exact date for Lolth's return, but I don't think it really matters what divine rank any god has to most campaigns.
I realize this may not be a satisfying answer, and I'm not saying its the best way of handling things one way or the other, just pointing out that the Retreat/Last Mythal issue kind of spells out that its WOTCs policy to take some time to spell things out, especially if the bulk of the explanation comes from the novel point of view. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 00:11:30
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I'd almost imagine he would be more skeptical of Eilistraee worshipers than most novel characters, but perhaps I read things differently than others.
Actually, I'd agree with this--or at least, Drizzt is likely to be cautious of any drow claiming to be a follower of Eilistraee. His encounter with Donnia What's-Her-Face in Book 2 of the Hunter's Blade trilogy sort of confirms this (she was a drow who tried to trick Drizzt into letting his guard down by claiming to be a follower of Eilistraee). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Trizzt08
Acolyte
USA
20 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 04:40:30
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SPOILER
Well it might, Eilistraee has defeated and absorbed Vaheruns essence, now she has his followers as well. imagine all the male drow having to chose between physco chick or someone who won't kill them for having an opinion. she's probaly gonna be a Greater god now or at least Intermediate |
My god says you can't do that |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 06:30:00
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| greater god ... nah ... not before Lolth is dead and buried, and the drows moved back to the ground ... |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 09:09:17
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Aside from, well, the most recent issues in the LP series, which I won't go into, everything up to 1375 DR has really been more or less explained. Or at least to the degree that most campaigns should need them . . . yes, we didn't really get an exact date for Lolth's return, but I don't think it really matters what divine rank any god has to most campaigns.
Well, it is not about divine rankings here, but if you have campaigns running with "evil" drow and are in the process of writing adventures (which may get the approval of Paizo or the Wizards), you would want to know if certain deities are still out and about at all.
Divine Ranking is something which is utterly unneccessary, as no-one will really care what stats a deity has - unless the private campaign goes into Epic-epic proportions. Deities are deities and should remain untouchable for PC. Thus, most stats material in e.g. F&P is just for people with a liking to debate highly theoretical / hypothetical stuff. The Faiths & Avatars series led the way in this respect.
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Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 15:42:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Trizzt08
SPOILER
Well it might, Eilistraee has defeated and absorbed Vaheruns essence, now she has his followers as well. imagine all the male drow having to chose between physco chick or someone who won't kill them for having an opinion. she's probaly gonna be a Greater god now or at least Intermediate
That's "IF" Vhaeraun is even dead. He *is* the Drow god of Trickery and Deceit, among other things. If anyone could fake out Lady Silverhair, it'd be him.
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 16:17:47
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| If Vhaeraun truly is dead, I'm hoping it leads to at least some of his former worshippers converting to Mask. It'd be pretty cool if book 2 of the Twilight War trilogy featured a bunch of Cormanthor drow turning up and declaring their allegiance to Erevis Cale, especially as it would most likely mean at least one drow versus shades battle . |
Edited by - nbnmare on 12 Feb 2007 16:20:23 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 16:34:40
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quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
If Vhaeraun truly is dead, I'm hoping it leads to at least some of his former worshippers converting to Mask. It'd be pretty cool if book 2 of the Twilight War trilogy featured a bunch of Cormanthor drow turning up and declaring their allegiance to Erevis Cale, especially as it would most likely mean at least one drow versus shades battle .
Who is Erevis Cale?  |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 17:20:22
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BTW, while I'm here -- just what is this "Dance the Changedance" thing I've read about elsewhere concerning Eilistraee's clergy? I believe it was in Ed Greenwood's replies to questions about Lady Silverhair and her clergy?
Thanks for any help |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 17:53:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
BTW, while I'm here -- just what is this "Dance the Changedance" thing I've read about elsewhere concerning Eilistraee's clergy? I believe it was in Ed Greenwood's replies to questions about Lady Silverhair and her clergy?
Thanks for any help
In one of Ed's more recent replies concerning Eilistraee he reported that the Dark Maiden does have male clerics. There though is one rictual/dance they must partake in in order to gain respect and getter acceptance by the female Clergy. This is the Chanedance, where males become female in gender to better understand and relate to how it feels to be female. There appears to be much flexablity in what lessons a male in female might be expected to encounter. Subject interactions that females encouter, be it dealing with an abusive male, to cooking or perhaps tending young or other normal female life experiences.
It appears that the first Change dance is of a fairly short period, perhaps a few days. It also appears repeated Changedanes have longer duratons. This has not been set out in a rule set, however I suspect a real dedicated male will to gain respect be in female form for at least a month she that he can perform a Run in female form.
Actually I speculate a really dedicated male might take female form for the two plus years required to give birth.
Perhaps a male seeking position of High Priest, might take female form for 100s of years. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 18:34:39
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| The "Changedance" sounds more like something the clergy of Sharess or Shillia might do, then Eilistraee. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 19:15:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
The "Changedance" sounds more like something the clergy of Sharess or Shillia might do, then Eilistraee.
Well what Ed says is canon, unless WotC decides on something different. As I said before rules are not detailed yet for duration or even much of the process. Perhaps the other deities might perfer a full time gender transfomation instead of being allowed to live in both gender forms. Who are we to dispute the deity policy? *wink* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 20:14:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
BTW, while I'm here -- just what is this "Dance the Changedance" thing I've read about elsewhere concerning Eilistraee's clergy? I believe it was in Ed Greenwood's replies to questions about Lady Silverhair and her clergy?
Thanks for any help
In one of Ed's more recent replies concerning Eilistraee he reported that the Dark Maiden does have male clerics. There though is one rictual/dance they must partake in in order to gain respect and getter acceptance by the female Clergy. This is the Chanedance, where males become female in gender to better understand and relate to how it feels to be female. There appears to be much flexablity in what lessons a male in female might be expected to encounter. Subject interactions that females encouter, be it dealing with an abusive male, to cooking or perhaps tending young or other normal female life experiences.
It appears that the first Change dance is of a fairly short period, perhaps a few days. It also appears repeated Changedanes have longer duratons. This has not been set out in a rule set, however I suspect a real dedicated male will to gain respect be in female form for at least a month she that he can perform a Run in female form.
Actually I speculate a really dedicated male might take female form for the two plus years required to give birth.
Perhaps a male seeking position of High Priest, might take female form for 100s of years.
thats a protential 'eww' |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Grandmaster Kane
Seeker
64 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 20:55:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Sian
Eliistraee's comunnities is as said a doubleedged sword ... they are 'cursed' with that they doesn't have a orginisted chruch which means they can't work together because they aren't aware of where other worshippers are... at the same time they are blessed in the way that Lolthian drows have to amass a massive army to cut down on the Elistraee comunities ... and since they live on the surface and no surface ruler (expect Dambrath) would like a Lolthian army in their backyard, they would (though prehaps not happily) join forces with Elistraee's worshippers if for nothing else get away with the Lolthian ... the Elistraee worshippers is the minor evil of those two
Even if lolth's forces suffer huge causikties her archne's will simply Zin Carla them and have another go |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 23:00:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Trizzt08
SPOILER
Well it might, Eilistraee has defeated and absorbed Vaheruns essence, now she has his followers as well. imagine all the male drow having to chose between physco chick or someone who won't kill them for having an opinion. she's probaly gonna be a Greater god now or at least Intermediate
Going by what happens in the Prelude of SotW, it's possible that the only reason Eilistraee "defeated" Vhaeraun is because he allowed that to happen as a part of a greater plan. Remember when Vhaeraun snuck his own piece onto the board?
So it's way too early to count him out of the equation. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 12 Feb 2007 23:03:54 |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 23:35:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
This is the Chanedance, where males become female in gender to better understand and relate to how it feels to be female. There appears to be much flexablity in what lessons a male in female might be expected to encounter. Subject interactions that females encouter, be it dealing with an abusive male, to cooking or perhaps tending young or other normal female life experiences.
Okay, but considering that females are usually the dominant gender among drow then wouldn't most males already appreciate what it's like to be taking orders from someone else? And I think that 'dealing with an abusive mate' is more of a problem for male drow (among Lolthites, anyway) than the other way around.
And hmm, I wonder if any of the other drow gods (like Vhaeraun) even transform their male clergy into females to infiltrate either Lolth or Eilistraee's priestesses? |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2007 : 00:02:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
This is the Chanedance, where males become female in gender to better understand and relate to how it feels to be female. There appears to be much flexablity in what lessons a male in female might be expected to encounter. Subject interactions that females encouter, be it dealing with an abusive male, to cooking or perhaps tending young or other normal female life experiences.
Okay, but considering that females are usually the dominant gender among drow then wouldn't most males already appreciate what it's like to be taking orders from someone else? And I think that 'dealing with an abusive mate' is more of a problem for male drow (among Lolthites, anyway) than the other way around.
In part the test of gender change might be if males (changed) try to degrard males? It clearly is a difference in between being female and being male as well. You should also recall that the Eilistraee Drow more often deal with other races on the surface and as well considers most races as aceptible in serving the Dark Maiden as equauls (there still is a bit of gender bias that I believe should not exist - however this is my opinion.). Clerics of Eilistraee do not order males about like Clerics of Lolth do. Here there is a clear difference. What canon we have we do have is that the Clergy sets the policy for the temple (the Clergy, until recently totaly female) though allowing male advise and comment for making policy decsions able to speak freely. In Lolth rulership a male could be killed for saying a word, even if the best advice, unless a female gave them permission to speak. Even if the females gave permission for a male to speak they could very likely kill the male for saying something tht displeases any one of the females. Lolth gives females the right to kill males for any reason or no reason at all. Thus proving females are greater then males.
Eilistraee does lean toward female greater then male, but clearly does not treat males as slaves or breeding stock. Becoming a Lolth female provides a free range to extract revenge, becoming an Elistraee female allows one to understand how the other has lived, with yes some greater degree of power.
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And hmm, I wonder if any of the other drow gods (like Vhaeraun) even transform their male clergy into females to infiltrate either Lolth or Eilistraee's priestesses?
Well Changedance was a new component to Lady Silverhair's dances, however other deities clearly have required a gender change. Vhaeraun clearly has no indication that I know of of a required gender change, with the transition to 3rd Edition Lolth either require all of her male clerics to become female or die (I have not seen an answer to this though). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Rory
Seeker
79 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2007 : 02:07:02
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Originally posted by Sian
thats a protential 'eww'
Hey big boy Elminster had to do it. Sorta.
Just to add my .002. Back in my Com 64 days I played two gold box games where Eilistraee had a secret society in a major Drow city. They were able to cloak themselves with magic jewelry. They posed as simple commoners. An Eilistraee house can pose as simple fast food merchants (rothe burgers), dry cleaners, surface slave traders where they buy slaves in the underdark then convert and or free them at the surface etc etc. |
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Will Eilistraee's worship increase? **Spoilers**
