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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Nov 2006 : 16:13:45
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Sages,
After hearing so many threads discussing Demihuman Deities and Cloak and Dagger, I finally purchased and downloaded them from Paizo. DD brought up an interesting question.
 On page 16 of Demihuman Deities it says that the Dark Maiden's worship was at its height during the days of Miyeritaar. Of course the Dark Disaster destroyed the elven realm of Miyeritaar. (the High Moor) I do not know how many original inhabitants of Miyeritaar came back with the refounding of Rhymanthiin, but, will the worship, and the power of Eilistraee grow stronger? Just some idle musings...
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2006 : 17:01:04
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Factoring in Ed's recent reply. that I interpolate to indicate 1 in 10 Drow have Eilistraee as paton deiety and 1 in 5 Drow offer some (if not most) worship to Her, the faith is near a tipping point of becoming the dominate Drow faith.
Oh it will still take hunreds of years if not longer.
The reason I see this occuring in the future are the Lolthians and the Vhaeraunites are engaged in war amoung themselves and other faiths (true they will kill Eilistraeeians as well, but are more of other faiths to kill).
The current weakness of followers of the Dark Maiden is that they are in small groups and do not know at times of groups that live very near them. With the Run and also the aid of Harpers in time this small groups will become aware of each other thus albe to lend aid and support to each other.
Also another strength that Eilistraee has is that other races of many kinds are followers of Her. I am sure the percentage is low per race, but they also add strength to the faith. A Silver Dragon Priestess for example can add much power to an Eilistraee community.
The lore as presented clearly supports the idea that followers of Lady Silver hair will increase in pecentages. They do not war amoung themselves, they do not kill their children, they have allies and are diverse in followers (which can be a force multiplier). When it becomes well known the actual size of followers and the communities link up there clearly might be a concertive effort by Lolth to attack , but the surface races clearly will not allow a massive evil Drow invasion and would flock to the banner of Eilistraee just to stop the invasion. Also of course a Lolth invasion force of many Houses would still have the infighting that would reduce it as a unified army.
Perhaps Lolth will not encourage such a grand war, because the odds of winning do not strike me as good. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2006 : 17:42:25
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| Eliistraee's comunnities is as said a doubleedged sword ... they are 'cursed' with that they doesn't have a orginisted chruch which means they can't work together because they aren't aware of where other worshippers are... at the same time they are blessed in the way that Lolthian drows have to amass a massive army to cut down on the Elistraee comunities ... and since they live on the surface and no surface ruler (expect Dambrath) would like a Lolthian army in their backyard, they would (though prehaps not happily) join forces with Elistraee's worshippers if for nothing else get away with the Lolthian ... the Elistraee worshippers is the minor evil of those two |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2006 : 19:01:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Factoring in Ed's recent reply. that I interpolate to indicate 1 in 10 Drow have Eilistraee as paton deiety and 1 in 5 Drow offer some (if not most) worship to Her, the faith is near a tipping point of becoming the dominate Drow faith.
Oh it will still take hunreds of years if not longer.
Perhaps Lolth will not encourage such a grand war, because the odds of winning do not strike me as good.
Dunno, but from what I know and read so far, I would argue that 1 in 10 drow might (a capital MIGHT) have heard of her and far far less will worship her in any ever so slight a way. I for one cannot see any great increase in her worship, well ... by her accounts, an increase of a hundred worshippers a year is enormous, so there might be a point. Neither will whatever happened to ex-Miyeritar land see a sudden or prolonged increase in followers. Where would they come from? Would elves suddenly invite good drow (which are rare) to a new found realm, even though it was formerly - i.e. 10,000 years ago - being made up of wild and dark elves? It would take the Wizards a quite enormous amount of explanation to justify somesuch ... IMHO.
But that's just me. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2006 : 19:37:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Dunno, but from what I know and read so far, I would argue that 1 in 10 drow might (a capital MIGHT) have heard of her and far far less will worship her in any ever so slight a way. I for one cannot see any great increase in her worship, well ... by her accounts, an increase of a hundred worshippers a year is enormous, so there might be a point. Neither will whatever happened to ex-Miyeritar land see a sudden or prolonged increase in followers. Where would they come from? Would elves suddenly invite good drow (which are rare) to a new found realm, even though it was formerly - i.e. 10,000 years ago - being made up of wild and dark elves? It would take the Wizards a quite enormous amount of explanation to justify somesuch ... IMHO.
But that's just me.
Perhaps you missed this http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5812&whichpage=67 where in part Ed says quote:
I’d say a little more than 22% or so of all drow in Faerûn worship Eilistraee - - although I must again remind scribes to set aside any modern monotheistic thinking: in the Realms, the vast majority of intelligent beings worship many or at least several gods, NOT just one. It’s not easy to truly believe in and worship Lolth and any other drow deity, but a particular drow individual COULD venerate both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun (though they’d serve neither well, in trying to follow or honour both). Drow who ONLY worship Eilistraee are almost entirely her clergy, and are probably between 10 and 12 percent of all drow.
botton two posts are Ed's replies to Eilistraee questions. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 18 Nov 2006 19:39:54 |
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Besshalar
Learned Scribe
Finland
166 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2006 : 20:02:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
I’d say a little more than 22% or so of all drow in Faerûn worship Eilistraee - - although I must again remind scribes to set aside any modern monotheistic thinking: in the Realms, the vast majority of intelligent beings worship many or at least several gods, NOT just one. It’s not easy to truly believe in and worship Lolth and any other drow deity, but a particular drow individual COULD venerate both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun (though they’d serve neither well, in trying to follow or honour both). Drow who ONLY worship Eilistraee are almost entirely her clergy, and are probably between 10 and 12 percent of all drow.
I don't know know why but I think that should be saying ".... of all drow who venerate Eilistraee" . But to be sure we should check from Ed or someone who has his ear. Atleast to me it seems like a very high number of priestesses who in any Llolth ruled city are sacrificed instantly. |
The large print giveth , and the small print taketh away.
-Tom Waits |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2006 : 20:10:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Besshalar
I don't know know why but I think that should be saying ".... of all drow who venerate Eilistraee" . But to be sure we should check from Ed or someone who has his ear. Atleast to me it seems like a very high number of priestesses who in any Llolth ruled city are sacrificed instantly.
I understand why, even Eilistraee fans were surprised by the percentages that Ed was quoted as saying. However clergy should include Rangers and Monks, also one should remember under 3.X female Drow favorite class is Cleric (they may be multiclassed of course) so the potential is that over 50 percent of female Drow are Clerics (of any female dominated Drow religion). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2006 : 00:11:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I understand why, even Eilistraee fans were surprised by the percentages that Ed was quoted as saying. However clergy should include Rangers and Monks, also one should remember under 3.X female Drow favorite class is Cleric (they may be multiclassed of course) so the potential is that over 50 percent of female Drow are Clerics (of any female dominated Drow religion).
Favourite classes in 3,x are IMHO sometimes not very wisely chosen. While we are at it, most drow males are without doubt fighters, while some few (compared to the large bulk of the population) - i.e. noble drow and those who can pay the education - will walk the way of arcane power. As for females and clerics, this option is more likely, but there are quite a few elite fighters in drow society who are females too. Anyway, going by old and new rules, most drow clerics are indeed female - Vhaeraunians aside. Pre-3E, the clergy of Kiaransalee and Eilistraee was soley made up of females, while Lolth accepted a few males (up to a certain level). Nowadays, Lolth's clergy - i.e. any divine casters - is solely made up of female drow. That itself does not say however, that 50% of all female drow are clerics etc.. If that was the case, 50% of the males would be wizards and this is not backed in canon lore anyway - especially as the male fighters beat them hands down with regard to numbers. Speaking of clergy, monks do not exactly belong to the clergy in anything more than name. They may rank among the "followers", but clergy usually involves divine casters and by default, no elven or drow religion can have lawful casters.
Thanks for the link, but I still have my reservations about the numbers given above. They go pretty much against anything published in print up to now ... which could change though. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 19 Nov 2006 00:13:44 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2006 : 00:36:33
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*nods* We can get into favorite class in another thread, however if one looks at the four core classes for PCs 25 percent of each (Fighter, Wizard, Cleric and Theif) as a base it clearly is believable that 50 percent (if not more females) of clergy would be females (the percentage of theives should decline by being caught, the Lolthian Clerics would tend to try to kill the power gaining Wizards as well). Also of course the Lolthians do use combat slaves as part of milatary force.
The path to power in thousands of years of history and cultural is to be first a Cleric, second a Wizard (if the Clerics do not kill you), thrid a Fighter (respectiful as long as you do not upset a Cleric) or a rouge (Bards far more aceptible then others, but not well trusted and subject to quick or slow death at the hands of males and females of higher rank).
It clearly appears Eilistraee also surports a matiarcal temple stucture, just reducing the gender difference greatly. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2006 : 01:13:59
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Eilistraee followers and church should have pretty strong population growth (Maybe even stronger than Lolths)
1) Eilistraee followers dont suffer from the genocidial house wars that most Drow cities have
2) Unlike Lolth, Eilistraee would encourage her followers to nuture each child to adulthood Lolth on the otherhand has every third male child born to a family sacrificed to her not to mention the fact Lolth encourages drow to kill there own family members to gain the most powerful positions in the family
3) Lolth worshiping drow live in a far more dangerous enviroment than Eilistraee drow, the Underark is much more hostile enviroment than the surface not just from a monster point of view and but food and water are far more scarce there to
4) In addition to biological increases in population Eilistraee 's followers have poached followers and clerics from Lolth. Lolth would simply put a cleric who followers another deity to death. Eilistraee's followers have also been known to liberate drow slaves and bring them into the church (See the Liriel novels) |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2006 : 09:12:57
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@ Dargoth ... this might all be true, but the facts (those we know) are, that by 1371 there was no great tradition of Eilistraeens among the drow, especially those of the Underdark. Those on the surface barely made it into the hundreds. Obviously, we do not know anything and everything, but to suddenly expect 1,000 worshippers of Eilistraee in a city like Menzoberranzan strikes me as odd.
Regarding your points ...
1) true, yet Eilistraeens live in an environment very hostile to any sort of drow in general.
2) That holds true for noble families. Haven't heard anything likewise from the bulk of the population as yet.
3) Underdark Drow live in cities that are well protected. Those who meet Underdark creatures are usually trained to do so, i.e. city guards and patrols. Then again, drow cities as such are not a healthy environment to anyone either.
4) Well, Eilistraeens have as high a birthrate as any other drow. There is no reason to believe that the life of a surface drow is any easier as that of an Underdark one. Liberating slaves may be an option, but the Liriel story is just one episode and I haven't heard of that many instances were somesuch has occured as successfully and often as in there. Which is not to say that I doubt it happens from time to time. Whether these drow become followers of the Dark Maiden is another matter though.
@Kentinal ... if you were referring to the percentage of clerics among the clergy, you are right. Well, actually you are not, as the percentage of priests and priestesses amongst any drow clergy is far greater than 50%. Sourcebook in this respect is Demihuman Deities. As for favourite classes, I'd have no problem if the info given on drow were referring to the noble houses. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2006 : 09:23:15
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i would still say that Surface Drows have it easier simply because that, after they proved towards the neighboring groups that they had no ill intend, they would be able to in some degree count on their help if a situation accured where they needed a extended hand form someone
yeah ... Underdark drow live in cities ... but they aren't all that much more safe than underdark itself due to the intrenal killing, they might have a birthrate as high as the surface ... but they also kill/sacrifice a fair amount of them to Lolth or Vhaeraun |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2006 : 13:24:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
@Kentinal ... if you were referring to the percentage of clerics among the clergy, you are right. Well, actually you are not, as the percentage of priests and priestesses amongst any drow clergy is far greater than 50%. Sourcebook in this respect is Demihuman Deities. As for favourite classes, I'd have no problem if the info given on drow were referring to the noble houses.
Sword Dancers were 90 percent.
Arachnes were 40 percent It should be noted Lolth had 50 percent Clerics including muticlassed fighters).
Darkmasks were 55 percent.
However that was 2nd Edition where Specialty Priests started out character level 1, in 3.X there is the PrC to become a priest (most would start out as Clerics, then multiclass to become a Priest).
I am not sure that Eilistraee is all that concerned with Noble Houses.
Perhaps a question for Ed about the numbers he offered, I did not come up with the "probably between 10 and 12 percent of all drow" (mostly clergy) "who ONLY worship Eilistraee" |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Alediran
Acolyte
Argentina
36 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2006 : 13:48:01
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Zanan, don't forget that freeing slaves and other activities that could raise Eilistraeean population would happen very often, don't forgett either that many non drow follow her. The return of Miyeritar brings back the Sharn who follow the Silver Haired Lady (love that name :p).
And of course, there are seven sisters with silver hair who help them, Qilué beeing chosen of Mystra and Eilistraee means a very good link to the surface world and other races. |
Alediran of House Tir'ent from Evermeet, the most knowledgeable elven family about Faerûn.
- Member of the Elven Netbook proyect |
Edited by - Alediran on 20 Nov 2006 13:48:41 |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2006 : 14:10:09
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Very good point Alediran,
That is my basic question; how many of the Sharn follow Eilistraee? Will there be enough of the sharn left who still follow her to increase her power? |
ShadowJack |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2006 : 17:53:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Alediran
Zanan, don't forget that freeing slaves and other activities that could raise Eilistraeean population would happen very often,...
Does it? I mean, it is not that the slave traders of Skullport or the like appear to be scared or something. And, apart from a few lines in Champions of Valor, I haven't read of any increase in terms of numbers of the main temple of Eilistraee either, i.e. the Promenade.
quote:
... don't forgett either that many non drow follow her.
Again, I would not use "many" here. If you know of more than a handful non-drow outside the Promenade let me know.
quote:
The return of Miyeritar brings back the Sharn who follow the Silver Haired Lady (love that name :p).
Does Miyeritar return? I haven't read that Khelben book, but I sincerely doubt that the return of that mythall'ed city will include its inhabitants ... which would, BTW, be dark elves, not drow. Regarding the sharn, that would be the first time I have heard of them being followers of Eilistraee at all. And I think I know a bit of drow lore ...
quote:
And of course, there are seven sisters with silver hair who help them, Qilué beeing chosen of Mystra and Eilistraee means a very good link to the surface world and other races.
Help them? Well, unless it is described in that novel, I don't think any of the other six chosen of Mystra will be inclined to help Qilue bring ship-loads of drow to the surface, converting them to Eilistraee, and sending them to the High Moor.
See, I have no problem with enthusiasm and all, but I wouldn't stretch this return stuff as much as some do on here. If there was a greater exodus of drow towards the surface, it happened during the Silence of Lolth. Yet, these drow were most likely males and if they hear of another female goddess vying for their vote, well, guess what? Furthermore, many of these drow have become disenchanted with their lot in a Lolthite ruled society, but not necessarily with the "evil" ways of the drow as such. Especially when you consider that drow feel (and more often than not are) superior to the surface races in terms of activities in the shadows, fighting, and the like. These chaps will not simply turn good or feel that they need redemption. Just as food for thought. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 20 Nov 2006 17:57:35 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2006 : 18:26:02
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I did ask about current population of the Promenade and Ed replied NDA so population couldhave increased or decreased.
As for other races we do not know how many have converted, clearly percentage of other races will be lower (much lower?).
As for conversion to the faith, each Cleric has the dogma of trying to have one convert per month. This together with the Run clearly seeks to increase the believers and also general knowledge of Eilistraee (even if during the Run they "do not come to preach their faith"). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Alediran
Acolyte
Argentina
36 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2006 : 18:48:22
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There are also many followers of Eilistraee among the Underdark cities, many drows who aren't nobles follow her and during lolth's silence they had the perfect oportunity to convert many drows and take them to the surface.
The Sharn are former Dark Elves from Miyeritar who followed the Dark Maiden, and choose that form instead of the curse that created the Drow. |
Alediran of House Tir'ent from Evermeet, the most knowledgeable elven family about Faerûn.
- Member of the Elven Netbook proyect |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2006 : 19:10:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Alediran
The Sharn are former Dark Elves from Miyeritar who followed the Dark Maiden, and choose that form instead of the curse that created the Drow.
This choice might have decreased the number that still would worship the Drow deity, espcially in they were hidden on another plane of existance.
All it all there is no official answer on how their reappearence would speed or slow the spread of the Eilistraee religion. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2006 : 21:08:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Alediran
There are also many followers of Eilistraee among the Underdark cities, many drows who aren't nobles follow her and during lolth's silence they had the perfect oportunity to convert many drows and take them to the surface.
The Sharn are former Dark Elves from Miyeritar who followed the Dark Maiden, and choose that form instead of the curse that created the Drow.
Don't get me wrong here, but I have never come across these bits of info in any canon lore on the drow or the sharn. And rest assured, if there was lore published on FR drow, I would be one of the first to know. There ain't many worshippers of Eilistraee in any FR drow city that I know of from novel or description, if you have info (books) on that, please let me know. Not because I want to prove you wrong, but because I WANT to know  . Hence I am somewhat hesitant to believe Ed's words with regard to the percentage of drow following Eilistraee in places like Menzo, about which we have pretty detailed accounts. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2006 : 21:35:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
There ain't many worshippers of Eilistraee in any FR drow city that I know of from novel or description, if you have info (books) on that, please let me know. Not because I want to prove you wrong, but because I WANT to know . Hence I am somewhat hesitant to believe Ed's words with regard to the percentage of drow following Eilistraee in places like Menzo, about which we have pretty detailed accounts.
Ed's words are canon unless contradicted by print, that was the agreemeement with TSR and now WotC. While WotC owns FR the Realms are still Ed's vision.
As for a visable presence of Eilstraee followers in Mezzo or any other Lolth dominated city there will not be much souce written material. Seceret societies are not general knowledge. We are told from 2nd Edition that indeed followers of the Dark Maiden do operate in the underdark and in Lolth dominated cities. 3rd even offered us the _Dark Maiden's Portal_ a onw way gate from Mezzo to the surface (the portal created by a powerful Cleric many years ago) that has not yet been discovered by Lolth followers.
A hidden power that does not know how strong it is. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Mkhaiwati
Learned Scribe
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2006 : 22:15:29
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The book Blackstaff and Steven's replies about it expand much about Miyeritar. Dark elves were a large contingent of the city, which had a few other races also including other elves, centaurs, and dwarves. Most inhabitants (Sharn) returned to their natural form (see the book). Most dark elves did not, however, as this would make them drow and they did not want that, so most kept their sharn-form and stayed as guardians of the new city. (see Steven's discussions on Blackstaff)
The War of the Spider Queen series had mention (book 4) of the surface worshippers sending priestesses down to the cities to help spread the word and pass along tokens amongst the faithful. (the priestess who was slain by the yochlol) |
"Behold the work of the old... let your heritage not be lost but bequeath it as a memory, treasure and blessing... Gather the lost and the hidden and preserve it for thy children."
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail." OotS #367 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2006 : 10:41:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Ed's words are canon unless contradicted by print, that was the agreemeement with TSR and now WotC. While WotC owns FR the Realms are still Ed's vision.
But they are contradicted, right up to Underdark. Not a single word of any Eilistraeen in Menzo, not a single one ... and given the recent interest in the Dark Maiden and this place, you would expect that either in novel or sourcebook, a note on Eilistraeen activity in this city would see more than just a few words or sentences on this matter.
quote:
As for a visable presence of Eilstraee followers in Mezzo or any other Lolth dominated city there will not be much souce written material. Seceret societies are not general knowledge.
Not wanting to sound picky or the like, but if there is detailed knowledge on a drow city, it is about Menzo. And while secret societies are not general knowledge to the inhabitants of that place, they surely are common knowledge to DMs and designers, as they live upon such info. Else there would be near to no info in the books on the Harpers, the Eldreth Ve..., the Red Sashes etc.. Sourcebooks are meant to spread knowledge for DM to work with, so any secret society would feature in there, somewhere.
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We are told from 2nd Edition that indeed followers of the Dark Maiden do operate in the underdark and in Lolth dominated cities. 3rd even offered us the _Dark Maiden's Portal_ a onw way gate from Mezzo to the surface (the portal created by a powerful Cleric many years ago) that has not yet been discovered by Lolth followers.
Of that I know, but nothing more has been said. And before I place 1,000 followers (going roughly by the percentage mentioned above) of one deity in a place that had just about a handful of non-Lolthite clergy/followers in total before, I need some more tangible material and info than what has been said above. With no disrespect to any designer, reader, or observer at all!
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A hidden power that does not know how strong it is.
Well, on the same note and with the same determination, I could introduce a few hundred or thousand followers or clergy of Ibrandul / Shar into the Underdark of the Realms without much problem and no-one to prove me wrong. 
Mkhaiwati ... I'll have a look at this info then. Apparently something to add to the sharns' description in the Menzoberranzan box and Monsters of Faerûn. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 21 Nov 2006 10:44:19 |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2006 : 11:09:01
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there aren't a single word about if they aren't there ... but there aren't anywhere, where it is said that there aren't
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what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2006 : 11:27:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Sian
there aren't a single word about if they aren't there ... but there aren't anywhere, where it is said that there aren't
Am I right that you speak of the Ibrandlin? If so, I need a decryptor for the meaning of what you wrote. But I think I can guess what you mean easy enough. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2006 : 13:17:47
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The 10 percent of all Drow clearly would not be the same in every city, it is indeed unlikely 1,000 Eilistraee Drow live in Menzoberranzan. CoV however has Darksong Knights operating in that city and other Lolth dominated cities. Not sure which print date you are refering to that you claim makes absolutely no mention of Eilistraee Drow in Menzoberranzan.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2006 : 16:37:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
quote:
Originally posted by Sian
there aren't a single word about if they aren't there ... but there aren't anywhere, where it is said that there aren't
Am I right that you speak of the Ibrandlin? If so, I need a decryptor for the meaning of what you wrote. But I think I can guess what you mean easy enough.
What Sian meant, I think is this: There is no lore stating that Menzo has no Eilistraee drow within and and if that is the case, there is no conflict with Ed's words either. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2006 : 20:33:05
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| well sorry that i'm not native english and aren't even close to being the best spellingbee :| |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2006 : 21:25:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Sian
well sorry that i'm not native english and aren't even close to being the best spellingbee :|
No worries. It was more of a misunderstanding than a language difficulty, I think. 
Many of our scribes do speak English as a native tongue, and they are still not always intelligible!  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 00:56:31
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Well, the beauty of this hobby is, now matter how "canon" certain lore is, you don't have to use it if you don't want to.
I have to admit though, I'm partial to Eilistraee and wouldn't mind if her worship increased (though not too much--the clandestine nature of this faith is part of its attractiveness for me). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 01:06:05
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*chuckles*
The lore is diverse enough for many understandings on the few canon facts provided. The Entire Drow redemned will never occur, just some will hear the call. The stealth of a follower of the secert follower of Lady of the Dance clearly provides RP options.
Basic math appears to indicate that in time Lolth will dimished, however math (or other logic) does not apply to the realms. *wink* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Will Eilistraee's worship increase? **Spoilers**
