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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 16:40:07
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Okay, I'm trying to envision how "society" works in a 4E Thay, but not having much more than the FRCG I'm not sure how the nation is composed and what an "undead nation" would be doing.
Is the core of 4E Thay all entirely undead? If so, do they have strata of undead within the society (i.e. undead serfs, undead merchants, undead middle management, etc.)? Or is it essentially an eerily quiet place, where undead shuffle around all in slavery to Szass Tam?
If it's the former, and they (somewhat) still resemble a living society, what do the undead all do from day to day? Do they produce textiles and research spells, do they have their own personal motivations for gathering influence? Do they create things for sale within their nation, or possibly export anything to other nations?
Or am I thinking along the wrong lines completely and there's still a small core of living sub-rulers and others that rely on the undead for slaves? If that's the case, why would those still alive be willing to hang around? Power? Or is there money to be made? Or are they unable to escape and somehow fit in to the power structure and serve Szass Tam directly in some way?
Do people visit Thay, in the sense of traveling merchants? If so, do said merchants haggle with undead merchants?
Too many questions... sorry if this has been asked before, but I'm trying to picture how an undead "society" would work.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 18:10:47
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quote:
Originally posted by TheriseIs the core of 4E Thay all entirely undead?
Not all inhabitants of Thay are undead. In fact, I would go so far as to say that all of the living inhabitants are not undead  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 18:21:50
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"It's a dead man's party, who could ask for more? Everybody's coming, leave your body at the door!"
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Arioch
Learned Scribe
Italy
222 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 18:33:58
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Not much explaining is given officially about day-to-day activities in 4ed Thay.
I prefer to think to a Thay ruled less openly by undead... For a lot of reasons it seems to me more realistic, and less a cliché.
I see very few needs for having living human when you can have undeads at your control. If nothing changes in that land, I fear the human population could cease to exist...
I can point you toward this discussion http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14424 maybe it helps. |
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Ruul
Seeker
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 18:43:03
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| It would be interesting to see it officially explored in future novels. I tend to imagine it as a land totally run by undead. I'd love to see certain factions of the undead rise up against their lich and vampire overlords and create a zombie seperatist state within Thay. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 19:40:34
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LOL okay... if there isn't much lore on the current Thay, how would you envision the workings of a mostly undead society?
They wouldn't need to produce food, really, except for a handful of living people. And I can't imagine skeletons and zombies as slave-farmers, maggots would over-run farms unless run by the living; maybe they'd be slave labor for building and logging, and front-line troops, that kind of thing? But what would they be working toward, for their leader(s)?
Or would Thay just be a wasteland, with random shambling zombies and dead fields? Towns and cities, are they just literally ghost towns? Or is there some kind of leadership, organized defense, and production going on?
What would an undead society produce, if anything? What would they need?
Vaguely, I'm sort of picturing the Undercity of Lordaeron in Warcraft (WoW). There's a lot of commerce going on, but mostly over minor magic items, textiles, leather-crafts, jewels, and the like. The farms in the land above, they're full of weeds and haunted by ghosts and zombies, nothing being produced there.
But there are huge differences between the Forsaken undead of Warcraft and those of the Realms. In WoW, they still eat and can be "put down" (sort of like dying again), not at all the same as undead in the Realms.
Or... maybe Szass Tam has been shaping his realm after Larloch's crypt? Perhaps he mentally controls most undead, except things like vampires and greater undead who have stronger wills?
@Arioch thanks, I'll look at that scroll... very interesting!
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 10 Jan 2011 19:44:01 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3566 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 20:34:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
"It's a dead man's party, who could ask for more? Everybody's coming, leave your body at the door!"
I didnt know Oingo Boingo survived the blue fire |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 20:39:24
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
"It's a dead man's party, who could ask for more? Everybody's coming, leave your body at the door!"
I didnt know Oingo Boingo survived the blue fire
Of course they did... the Spellplague was Weird Science! 
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Ruul
Seeker
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 20:55:35
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| Picturing Thay as Lordaeron, in my mind, would be close to how it is now. Szass probably has all his minions working hard constructing materials for the Dread Rings he's trying to place all over the Sword Coast. I'd tend to think that there would still be small amounts of farming and such though as there is still a living populous there. |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 21:20:09
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| Skeletons would, if given precise and specific enough instructions, and controlled firmly enough, make AWESOME farmers and slave laborers, and could be outfitted to do a variety of tasks, and skeletons of exotic enough creatures can do most any menial anything. The living necromancers, and intelligent, powerful undead of Thay would likely prosper IMMENSELY under the 'just need firm control' tireless, inputless slave labor of skeletons... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 00:23:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Too many questions... sorry if this has been asked before, but I'm trying to picture how an undead "society" would work.
You owe it to yourself to pick up Richard Lee Byers' "Haunted Lands" trilogy. Especially Unholy, which provides a worthwhile snapshot of Thay as an undead nation. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 01:29:30
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Too many questions... sorry if this has been asked before, but I'm trying to picture how an undead "society" would work.
You owe it to yourself to pick up Richard Lee Byers' "Haunted Lands" trilogy. Especially Unholy, which provides a worthwhile snapshot of Thay as an undead nation.
I tried, but I couldn't read it after the first couple of chapters. I don't want to talk negatively about the book, although I am interested in the workings of Thay game-wise in 4E.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 01:30:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Ruul
Picturing Thay as Lordaeron, in my mind, would be close to how it is now. Szass probably has all his minions working hard constructing materials for the Dread Rings he's trying to place all over the Sword Coast. I'd tend to think that there would still be small amounts of farming and such though as there is still a living populous there.
What are the dread rings, some kind of magic item?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3566 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 01:34:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
"It's a dead man's party, who could ask for more? Everybody's coming, leave your body at the door!"
I didnt know Oingo Boingo survived the blue fire
Of course they did... the Spellplague was Weird Science!
Well played milady. Well played indeed! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 11:36:05
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| Oh yeah, dogs love it in Thay. Always a bone ready to chew on. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Ruul
Seeker
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 13:18:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Ruul
Picturing Thay as Lordaeron, in my mind, would be close to how it is now. Szass probably has all his minions working hard constructing materials for the Dread Rings he's trying to place all over the Sword Coast. I'd tend to think that there would still be small amounts of farming and such though as there is still a living populous there.
What are the dread rings, some kind of magic item?
From all I've read they are a huge magical construct that poisons the surrounding land making it a haven for undead.
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 14:26:53
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| No they are some kind of focus points needed for his ritual to ascend beyond godhood and recreate existence as he likes. |
Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 11 Jan 2011 14:27:15 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 15:50:09
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As Thay is an undead nation, I think Szass Tamm is aware his greatest need is corpses. So Thay needs to import and maintain slaves, to replenish the armor plated undead armies, shuffling workforce and intelligent lich rulers he tries to amass. He'll still need a sizable merchant class of living Thayans to make sure the slave trade keeps up with his nations corpse consumption. I'd devide Thays demographic so that a sizable part is still living and able to produce offspring. 4,500,000 heads of which only 10% is still living humanoid (about 450 000 slaves); of these the devision would still be 60% humans, 10% orc, 10% gnoll, 5% dwarf, 5% goblinoid, 5% halfling, 5% other; I'd leave a mere 4500 necromantic human nobility of which a sizable amount are lich, living in unimaginable wealth.
I can see these autharchs (those that handle the nations trade, bureaucracy, and military defence) being devided in half undead and half living members, and those that tend to stay long in Thay will eventually embrace necromantic rituals of lich transforation.
The millions of mindless undead just go about performing the last order given by them for eternity. I think the Dread Rings convey Szass Tamms orders to any mindless undead in Thay. So his tireless subjects likely till the former farms of Thay, work in uncouth mines, forge steel in massive factories, etc. He'll organize them such that they'll work in production lines similar to our modern time robots in industries.
Its obvious that Szass NEEDS to expand his borders to sustain such a society, as his nations ruling caste is likely to slowly dwindle in status if he can't find willing necromancers elsewhere to join the ranks of the ruling castes. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 16:51:12
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
No they are some kind of focus points needed for his ritual to ascend beyond godhood and recreate existence as he likes.
This. It is what the whole series is ultimately about.
The Spellplague parts in book 2 were a side show. Humans are also 'meat' for the intelligent undead of the land, so They also needs live slaves... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 23:54:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Its obvious that Szass NEEDS to expand his borders to sustain such a society, as his nations ruling caste is likely to slowly dwindle in status if he can't find willing necromancers elsewhere to join the ranks of the ruling castes.
He doesn't need willing necromancers, because he can force them.
@Therise. I'll echo Sage's recommendation...Read The Haunted Lands trilogy. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 11 Jan 2011 23:56:14 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 00:39:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
@Therise. I'll echo Sage's recommendation...Read The Haunted Lands trilogy.
Well, like I said, I couldn't get into it at all. IMO it was one of the most poorly written things I've ever read (which was very odd, because I've liked some of the author's other novels). But, this isn't really the place for that kind of discussion, so I'll just have to find out about Thay in other ways.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 12 Jan 2011 00:41:11 |
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Trying to picture Thay in 4E
