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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 06:19:20
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Well now,
It turns out I was wrong and WOTC should updated their book list about these novels. In the Greater Doppleganger entry in Monster's of Faerun, the events of these novellettes is referenced.
For years, I told people that they were not canon since WOTC's online book list says they aren't canon, however, it seems that they are.
The link I'm talking about is:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/lists#Apocrypha
So..... I guess Volo didn't write these until 5 years after the events actually took place.
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 25 Apr 2006 07:00:22
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 06:39:23
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A·poc·ry·pha
3 Writings or statements of questionable authorship or authenticity.
They're listed as apocrypha in there. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 06:51:09
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Curious.
I take back some of the poor comments I've made in the past about Monsters of Faerun having little lore, besides the stats, to share with Realmslore fans.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 06:58:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
A·poc·ry·pha
3 Writings or statements of questionable authorship or authenticity.
They're listed as apocrypha in there.
Yes, I know and that was my point. We've always been told that those novellette's were not canon but Monster's of Faerun says otherwise. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 25 Apr 2006 06:59:16 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 06:58:51
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Curious.
I take back some of the poor comments I've made in the past about Monsters of Faerun having little lore, besides the stats, to share with Realmslore fans.
Me to. :) I found this reference, and others of interest, since I finally am starting to really try to read through the 3/3.5e sourcebooks. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 07:04:18
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All it talks about is a doppleganger masquerading as Piergeiron's wife. The Double Diamond novels don't get a mention at all. What likely happened is that such an event did indeed occur, Volo heard about it and used this event as the basis for some fiction.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 07:34:01
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
All it talks about is a doppleganger masquerading as Piergeiron's wife. The Double Diamond novels don't get a mention at all. What likely happened is that such an event did indeed occur, Volo heard about it and used this event as the basis for some fiction.
-- George Krashos
Okay and? Without those novellette's being written then that reference wouldn't exist. That's all I'm saying and so WOTC has made parts of those novels canon. It's not hard to grasp. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 07:44:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
All it talks about is a doppleganger masquerading as Piergeiron's wife. The Double Diamond novels don't get a mention at all. What likely happened is that such an event did indeed occur, Volo heard about it and used this event as the basis for some fiction.
-- George Krashos
Okay and? Without those novellette's being written then that reference wouldn't exist. That's all I'm saying and so WOTC has made parts of those novels canon. It's not hard to grasp. :)
Indeed. The specific events of those novels have been referenced in the "In the Realms" section for the Greater Doppleganger's entry. Even if the titles themselves haven't been listed... these events, as referenced in the lore, demonstrate at the very least that the plots, of that particular doppelganger in the novels, are canon.
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Edited by - The Sage on 25 Apr 2006 07:45:51 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 08:07:50
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Well, I'm not going to argue with you, but my point is as simple as the point you wish me to accept. Yours is that the events of the Double Diamond novelletes have been 'canonised' in "Monsters of Faerűn". My point is that there is an alternative explanation (which I hasten to add allows both the entry in MoF and WotC's statement that the Double Diamond books are apocryphal to stand) which is that a doppleganger masqueraded as Piergeiron's wife. This is not the same event as is showcased in the DD books. Volo however heard about this occurrence and thereby wrote it up as DD fiction.
With respect, the Realms works better when explanations are made for things that are inclusive, rather than exclusive when it comes to inconsistencies and perceived "errors". In other words, if you can come up with something that doesn't invalidate previous material or statements on such material, it is prefereable to stating that X is right and therefore Y is wrong. My 2 cp and last comment on this thread.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 08:28:37
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
This is not the same event as is showcased in the DD books. Volo however heard about this occurrence and thereby wrote it up as DD fiction.
So, what you're saying is... that the described doppelganger plot detailed in the "In the Realms" section for the doppelganger's entry in MoF and the events detailed as fiction by Volo in the DD books are merely co-incidence and therefore not the same event?
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 12:36:38
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It seems to me that both gentlemen, GK and Kuje, are coming at the argument from only slightly different directions. Let's assume the incident with Piergeiron's wife and the doppleganger is canon Realmslore. Its inclusion in game products seems to establish that "fact." The question, as I understand it, is whether the inclusion of that "fact" in Volo's DD novelettes indicates that the novelettes in their entirety are "canon lore."
I read a lot of historical fiction. Some of it cleaves closely to the historical record, other stories seize an interesting fact (or rumor) and write a fictitious story around it. Quite a lot of historical fiction includes reference to famous individuals, incorporating actual events touching the lives of the great and famous into a fictitious narrative. I view Volo's DD novelettes in this light. This interpretation not only deals with the canon/apocryphal issue, but it's consistent with a) the way historical fiction works and b) Volo's long-established reputation for factual unreliability even in such works as purport to be non-fiction. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 12:47:08
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
So, what you're saying is... that the described doppelganger plot detailed in the "In the Realms" section for the doppelganger's entry in MoF and the events detailed as fiction by Volo in the DD books are merely co-incidence and therefore not the same event?
Despite myself, I respond. They are not coindidence, they are interrelated inasmuch as they talk about the same 'type' of event, namely a doppleganger masquerading as Piergeiron's wife. Volo hears about such an event, thinks "interesting" and much later when writing some fiction, uses this event as a plot premise with the only connection being the use of, and I repeat myself, a scenario where a doppleganger masquerades as Piergeiron's wife. Kuje is right: the entry does canonise a situation where a doppleganger masquerades as Pieregeiron's wife - but that doesn't necesarily mean that it canonises such an event in the context or form of the DD novelletes. IMHO at least.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 25 Apr 2006 12:50:02 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 13:35:37
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
I read a lot of historical fiction. Some of it cleaves closely to the historical record, other stories seize an interesting fact (or rumor) and write a fictitious story around it. Quite a lot of historical fiction includes reference to famous individuals, incorporating actual events touching the lives of the great and famous into a fictitious narrative. I view Volo's DD novelettes in this light. This interpretation not only deals with the canon/apocryphal issue, but it's consistent with a) the way historical fiction works and b) Volo's long-established reputation for factual unreliability even in such works as purport to be non-fiction.
I can certainly see that as a possible explanation.
I think, what this really comes down to... is just how much strength, you as the DM, choose to give to the details in that particular entry for the doppelganger in MoF. If you want it as canon for your campaign... that's your choice -- you're viewing it as a proper reference dealing with the events portrayed in the novel and making it a canon event. If you don't, then look at the entry and Volo's portrayed events in a way Elaine illustrated above -- historical fiction following Volo's regular tendency for factual unrealiabiliy.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 13:39:35
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Despite myself, I respond. They are not coindidence, they are interrelated inasmuch as they talk about the same 'type' of event, namely a doppleganger masquerading as Piergeiron's wife. Volo hears about such an event, thinks "interesting" and much later when writing some fiction, uses this event as a plot premise with the only connection being the use of, and I repeat myself, a scenario where a doppleganger masquerades as Piergeiron's wife. Kuje is right: the entry does canonise a situation where a doppleganger masquerades as Pieregeiron's wife - but that doesn't necesarily mean that it canonises such an event in the context or form of the DD novelletes. IMHO at least.
But, if we're talking about fictitious works... why reference them in a canon sourcebook in the first place?
Now I know, Volo could've been using an historical note about a doppelganger impersonating Piergeiron's wife and crafting a tale from it... but it's a tale that's been referenced in canon material. Yes, it could be the actual historical event referenced in the doppelganger's entry and not Volo's tale thus opening the way for your interpretation that says that the novelette's events haven't been "properly" canonised. But why do that? We already know of the events from the novel... and James Wyatt and Rob Heinsoo likely did as well and so utilised the novelette's plot as a basis for lore in the "In the Realms" entry for the doppelganger.
Thus, a canonised event.
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 13:54:49
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Does this event take place as shown in the DDTS books? We don't know one way or the other. Does it make the whole series canonical? I don't see why it should.
We already knew the books were partly canonical in that if, say, Ed Greenwood revisited subjects he covered in his instalments, it's not likely he would replace stuff he created for the DDTS just because their events had been labelled outside of canon. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 16:06:09
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I guess to say that the whole series has to have happened because one of the events of the books may have happened is kind of like saying that since the Baldur's Gate novels happened, then every character in the video games must exist, and all the areas exist as they did in the game, even if the characters in the novels didn't do the "side quests."
Of course, the real world, and likely less explosive, explanation is that whoever wrote the Greater Doppleganger entry just didn't realize that DD series wasn't canon, and no one caught the reference before. Heck, I've had the book for years now and never even read the "In the Realms" section of that particular monster.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 16:35:12
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Of course, the real world, and likely less explosive, explanation is that whoever wrote the Greater Doppleganger entry just didn't realize that DD series wasn't canon, and no one caught the reference before.
Or, as I said above... perhaps they did and decided to use that doppelganger reference for the lore section on the doppelganger and give the event some grounding in canon.
Hmmm... Maybe it was missed during the editing process? Perhaps more attention should have been thrown on the actual "canon nature" of the DD novelettes before they were (perhaps) used as reference sources for Realmslore in sourcebooks if this theory is true.
It seems they may have had some validity as canon, given what Faraer said above. I find it somewhat unlikely that Ed would actively override anything he'd written in his works for the DD series especially if he could use it with further lore he may be working on. So, at the very least... some of the events in the books have the *potential* to become canon.
quote:
Heck, I've had the book for years now and never even read the "In the Realms" section of that particular monster.
Neither had I. In fact, until Kuje mentioned it... that was probably the first time I actually read that entry fully.
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Edited by - The Sage on 25 Apr 2006 16:39:16 |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 01:41:58
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Damn, good eye Kuje. I also have had Monsters of Faerűn for years and never noticed that entry.
I was at Gen Con in 2000 when Jim Butler first mentioned that the Double Diamond Triangle Saga was no longer canon. I was thinking to myself, "Great they tricked me into purchasing novels that I wouldn't have read otherwise." It's nice to see that at least part of the series is canon. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 01:44:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Damn, good eye Kuje. I also have had Monsters of Faerűn for years and never noticed that entry.
I was at Gen Con in 2000 when Jim Butler first mentioned that the Double Diamond Triangle Saga was no longer canon. I was thinking to myself, "Great they tricked me into purchasing novels that I wouldn't have read otherwise." It's nice to see that at least part of the series is canon.
Me to. I was really surprised that that was in Monsters. I went, hey cool so some of those events are now canon, rock! |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 02:29:42
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Have I ever told you fellow scribes about Ed writing THE MERCENARIES (which should really be called “The Pirates”) in an afternoon, from a one-paragraph outline?
For which his reward was to be handed the last book with a one-day turnaround, with his co-author’s first draft more than twice as long as the allowable wordcount for the final version?
Ed bought himself an extra day by pointing out (truthfully) that Fed Ex didn’t do Saturday pickups in Canada at that time, rolled up his sleeves, cursed at the ceiling, and did what he had to do.
I understand there’s still blood on the ceiling.
love,
THO |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 02:34:23
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Have I ever told you fellow scribes about Ed writing THE MERCENARIES (which should really be called “The Pirates”) in an afternoon, from a one-paragraph outline?
For which his reward was to be handed the last book with a one-day turnaround, with his co-author’s first draft more than twice as long as the allowable wordcount for the final version?
Ed bought himself an extra day by pointing out (truthfully) that Fed Ex didn’t do Saturday pickups in Canada at that time, rolled up his sleeves, cursed at the ceiling, and did what he had to do.
I understand there’s still blood on the ceiling.
love,
THO
Grin,
No, this is a new tale. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 02:40:52
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Have I ever told you fellow scribes about Ed writing THE MERCENARIES (which should really be called “The Pirates”) in an afternoon, from a one-paragraph outline?
For which his reward was to be handed the last book with a one-day turnaround, with his co-author’s first draft more than twice as long as the allowable wordcount for the final version?
Ed bought himself an extra day by pointing out (truthfully) that Fed Ex didn’t do Saturday pickups in Canada at that time, rolled up his sleeves, cursed at the ceiling, and did what he had to do.
I understand there’s still blood on the ceiling.
love,
THO
Oh, I suddenly have renewed appreciation for Ed's position. Hehe...
Thanks for sharing THO  .
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 02:45:17
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| I've always considered them canon (not that my opinion has any influence on whether or not they actually are). |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 02:47:51
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From respect for Ed's ability to write novels too quickly, I recall this from an interview with Ramsey Campbell:quote:
I corresponded with [August Derleth] for many years, and I remember one memorable occasion where he said he was supposed to have a doctor's appointment that Sunday, but the doctor didn't turn up so he wrote a novel.
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Dhomal
Senior Scribe
USA
565 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 06:15:45
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Hello-
I'm not sure where my basis comes from - but I have for a long time considered them 'Apocrypha', in the sense that Volo wrote them - as Fiction, and not as 'news.'
As I understand it - the main reason for this is due to events that transpire to another author's character being used and abused. That being said - and its been years since I read them - I would agree that some of the contents of the books is of course cannon. However - what is cannon must be carefully looked at.
To say Volo got the idea for the beginning of the story froma doppleganger masquerading as Piergeron's wife is quite acceptable. I'm sure we all get ideas for our own campaigns from all sorts of sources.
Also - saying that we beleive that whatever Ed wrote would not be changed seems reasonable. However - if the story is deemed to be fiction - there is nothing saying that some aspects of the story Volo wrote are based in truth. I know that there were other geographic locales visited other than just Waterdeep. Perhaps Volo - in writing the story - included facts about XYZ city/town/etc. Those facts could certainly (*for us - the outside observer*) be considered cannon. However - it could just as easilly be things that he made up for the purposes of telling the story. If I decided to write a short story based in say - Paris - I could do a lot of research - but ultimately - some of what I write will not be true. Perhaps I used a made-up name for a street, or a business establishment name that does not exist. However - if I mention the Eifel Tower - that is know to exist, so there is a line between 'cannon' and 'creative license'.
I sure hope I am making some sense. Its late - and I seem to be loosing some of my thoughts - so I'm going to stop about now. 
Dhomal |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 13:03:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Dhomal
However - if the story is deemed to be fiction - there is nothing saying that some aspects of the story Volo wrote are based in truth. I know that there were other geographic locales visited other than just Waterdeep. Perhaps Volo - in writing the story - included facts about XYZ city/town/etc. Those facts could certainly (*for us - the outside observer*) be considered cannon. However - it could just as easilly be things that he made up for the purposes of telling the story. If I decided to write a short story based in say - Paris - I could do a lot of research - but ultimately - some of what I write will not be true. Perhaps I used a made-up name for a street, or a business establishment name that does not exist. However - if I mention the Eifel Tower - that is know to exist, so there is a line between 'cannon' and 'creative license'.
That's how fiction works in our world. I see no reason to believe that it works differently in the Realms.
Volo's guides--his non-fiction--are MEANT to be factually dubious. These are all about gossip and rumor and travelers' tales, occasionally corrected by Elminster but with a strong implication that not ALL falacies are corrected by Elminster. This leaves a lot of material to the discretion of the DM, which is, to my way of thinking, a very good idea. Do Volo's guides contain solid information? Absolutely, and some of it is readily verifiable. But quite a lot of it is conjecture or invention, and the existance of a few verifiable facts does not change the overall nature of his work.
Knowing what we do about Volo's non-fiction, why would we assume that verification of a few facts from the DD novelettes canonizes the whole?
This is my interpretation, and I'm not arguing that it's the only one. Considering my understanding of the purpose of Volo's work--to provide a level of ambiguity that leaves room for campaign customization and DM creativity--that would be ironic, if not actually hypocritical.
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Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 26 Apr 2006 17:02:25 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 13:30:51
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Speaking of Monsters of Faerun
In the Realms lore section of the Beast of Xvim it says Carina Tchazzam was killed by a Beast of Xvim/Bane in 1371 but in Nobles enhancement of City of Splendors shes still alive and still the House Heir.
Im wondering if MoF is cannon |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 14:39:59
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Since I'm curious about this... I've contacted both James Wyatt and Rob Heinsoo on the issue of the doppelganger details pertaining to the DD novellettes. I'm curious about what exactly they can tell us about the research they did for this tome.
Additionally, I was looking over the WotC website -- in particular the details about James and Rob's work on MoF when it was released -- and found this little factoid -
quote:
James: I set out selecting monsters for this book with a huge long list of all the monsters that had been published in Forgotten Realms sources over the years, and tried to select from that list monsters that had a particular Faerűnian flavor to them. It's hard to put a finger on what that means -- but the Realms is a setting of high magic and nasty evil, and you'll see a lot of both in this book.
That would seem to somewhat support the fact that the entry for the doppelganger does in fact relate to, possibly, the events portrayed in the novelette or at the very least, the novel was used as a reference source for the doppelganger entry in MoF as I mentioned above.
I'm hoping James or Rob can shed some light on this...
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Edited by - The Sage on 26 Apr 2006 14:42:03 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 14:47:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Im wondering if MoF is cannon
Hmmm... a lot of the "In the Realms" entries for the monsters detailed in MoF, when specific examples of monsters and/or events involving them are used as a basis for lore, seem to refer to actual canon events in the Realms. Notable examples of such entries include both the malaugrym and the shalarin.
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 15:52:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Speaking of Monsters of Faerun
In the Realms lore section of the Beast of Xvim it says Carina Tchazzam was killed by a Beast of Xvim/Bane in 1371 but in Nobles enhancement of City of Splendors shes still alive and still the House Heir.
Im wondering if MoF is cannon
There's always a chance there could have been a Resurrection type spell involved. |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 16:25:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Archwizard
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Speaking of Monsters of Faerun
In the Realms lore section of the Beast of Xvim it says Carina Tchazzam was killed by a Beast of Xvim/Bane in 1371 but in Nobles enhancement of City of Splendors shes still alive and still the House Heir.
Im wondering if MoF is cannon
There's always a chance there could have been a Resurrection type spell involved.
Similar to, and not really wishing to bring the Baldur's Gate computer game into it, the resurrection of Grand Duke Eltan, as mentioned in a recent sourcebook. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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