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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 22:21:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
2. Lack of Impact
[quote]However, I do like the feel that Forgotten Realms is a living world and some of the best books are those that do change it. The Avatar books certainly changed things (for better or worse) and Prince of Lies was partially as interesting as it was because of the utter decimation of Zhentil Keep.
Funny, since I've heard it expressed by many posters that the Avatar trilogy was, to put it gently, godawful. I just don't see how impact-full events are automatically superior to ones that affect no more than a few people's personal lives.
The destruction of Zhentil Keep was a nice story element... However, that's not the reason I enjoyed that book. I was more interested in how it came about, and everything else that was going on, as opposed to an event that somehow didn't slow down the Zhents for more than a couple of years.
The original Avatar books were pretty bad... |
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Beezy
Learned Scribe
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 23:13:18
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I don't agree that a book has to have a impact on the realms itself. Something has to change in order for a story to unfold but I need need gods dying, the red wizards wiped out, or any realms shaking events. For example I really enjoyed the Dark elf trilogy and the main point of it was that Drizzt left the underdark. Drizzt did not need to topple Menzo, or carve up all the members of the leading house to do so. I think a story that has a profound change or impact on the character himself can be just as good as a realms altering story.
As for the discontiuned hero segment, I don't think every character should live on indefinitely. It makes thier adventures and risk trivial because you know they won't die. Sometimes the risk are too great or something goes wrong and an important character is going to have to die. How many Drizzt novels are you willing to read before he settles down or dies? If we only right about a few select characters the realms would become stale or too predictable. |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 23:26:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I never said it didn't exist. I said its far less. The travel distances and isolation however make the intrigues far less complex and more isolated. The idea of a powerful nation state just doesn't exist that often and its why Thay, Cormyr, and Evermeet are the only settings for such things.
(yes, others EXIST but Alustriel's kingdom and Waterdeep are exactly built around the Chosen and thus NOT able to sustain much intrigue)
But this isn't a hero topic I think.
Hmmm... 'travel distances'? Why, I don't think the Realms are as isolated as you probably think... not when (almost) every mid-level adventuring party has access to teleporting and portals.
I did not refer to 'intrigue' as in 'cloak-and-dagger-royal-court' type of intrigue, but also on a smaller scale as well. There are probably hundreds of sinister plots taking place in every city or large town in the Realms. Some of them by "major players", certainly, but mostly, I think, by your average merchants, adventurers, low-level evil cultists, thieves, agents of various organizations, etcetera.
And have really read your references (novel and gaming products, that is), for I am quite surprised at your comments about Waterdeep not being able to sustain much intrigue. Why not? Because Khelben and Laeral live there? And how would that prevent unscrupulous merchants and shadowy cultists alike from plotting their downfall, or spinning their webs of intrigue? I thought the City of Splendors thrives on intrigue, or maybe I misunderstood your concept of this word? |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 23:39:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I never said it didn't exist. I said its far less. The travel distances and isolation however make the intrigues far less complex and more isolated. The idea of a powerful nation state just doesn't exist that often and its why Thay, Cormyr, and Evermeet are the only settings for such things.
(yes, others EXIST but Alustriel's kingdom and Waterdeep are exactly built around the Chosen and thus NOT able to sustain much intrigue)
But this isn't a hero topic I think.
Hmmm... 'travel distances'? Why, I don't think the Realms are as isolated as you probably think... not when (almost) every mid-level adventuring party has access to teleporting and portals.
I did not refer to 'intrigue' as in 'cloak-and-dagger-royal-court' type of intrigue, but also on a smaller scale as well. There are probably hundreds of sinister plots taking place in every city or large town in the Realms. Some of them by "major players", certainly, but mostly, I think, by your average merchants, adventurers, low-level evil cultists, thieves, agents of various organizations, etcetera.
And have really read your references (novel and gaming products, that is), for I am quite surprised at your comments about Waterdeep not being able to sustain much intrigue. Why not? Because Khelben and Laeral live there? And how would that prevent unscrupulous merchants and shadowy cultists alike from plotting their downfall, or spinning their webs of intrigue? I thought the City of Splendors thrives on intrigue, or maybe I misunderstood your concept of this word?
Again, I agree.
I don't understand Charles's point since Waterdeep is filled with intrigue as is almost every nation in FR. Distances have nothing to do with it and the Chosen of Mystra do not stop every intrigue. They can't possibly because they are only 12 or so out of millions of beings that reside in the world and go about thier lives, etc.
Hells, even the Chosen of Mystra form and keep track of some of thier own intrigues that span further then just the lands they reside in. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 27 Mar 2006 01:12:21 |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 23:44:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
No offense but Forgotten Realms is probably the least intrigue ridden game world in D&D.
Please, define to me that in what sense are Greyhawk, Eberron or Dragonlance more "intrigue ridden" game worlds than the Realms? I can't comment on Eberron, since I know virtually nothing of it, but since you seem to connect the term 'intrigue' with the existing number of kingdoms and city states, I am truly amazed that Krynn would be more alive with plotting and intrigue than Faerun. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 01:03:34
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quote:
Please, define to me that in what sense are Greyhawk, Eberron or Dragonlance more "intrigue ridden" game worlds than the Realms? I can't comment on Eberron, since I know virtually nothing of it, but since you seem to connect the term 'intrigue' with the existing number of kingdoms and city states, I am truly amazed that Krynn would be more alive with plotting and intrigue than Faerun.
I mentioned Dragonlance is the second to least intrigue filled world. However; in Dragonlance the organizations of the Knights of Takhasis, Knights of Solamnia, Clergies, and competing nations of the Elves as well as Dwarves are important part of the settings. Forgotten Realms Dwarves are completely isolated from one another while there are no Realms spanning good organizations save the incredibly disunited Harpers.
It's not a bad thing that the lands have become synonoumous with the Chosen that inhabit them, however its a recognizable fact of the Kingdoms that as long as Khelaben and Larael are in place then the Lords system is safe. When I overthrow Alustriel in my games, the players simply set about to restoring her to life than trying to install a new ruler as they accepted her as a part of the Marches that cannot exist without here.
But yes, I think its one of the selling points to the Realms that aside from Cormyr they're relatively intrigue free. I also indicate again I have very little desire to debate the point here.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 27 Mar 2006 01:13:23 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 01:48:52
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quote:
Whose what?
Well I don't name names but a lot of recent FR heroes seem to be less than fully realized characters to me.
quote:
Actually, I find most of the Seven Sisters indistinguiable from each other in many way, but okay.
They don't really need to be considered except as a group, but I do find it annoying when people think Dove and Storm should be combat machines.
quote:
Define larger than life.
For me, its the quality that this person is unique in the Realms and its not his adventures that sets him apart but his personality, attitudes, and history. I'm not interested "And the Ranger followed clues that lead him to Bloodstone..." stories.
quote:
You would encourage formulaic writing?
It's hardly an insult. My own writing aspires to be unique and changing with each book very different from the previous one but I recognize that not everyone necessarily want that. If I was writing novelizations of Resident Evil like Steve Perry (I wish they'd continue those), my requirement would primarily be that zombies in an enclosed environment would be involved.
quote:
Funny, since I've heard it expressed by many posters that the Avatar trilogy was, to put it gently, godawful. I just don't see how impact-full events are automatically superior to ones that affect no more than a few people's personal lives.
To be honest, I hated them myself Lady Fox. They didn't work for me save on the ramifications on the Realms. Midnight and Kelemvor didn't invoke nearly as much sympathy as Cyric did, Bane and the rest of the Dark Triad were treated as morons, and Ao simply hand waved the entire plot away at the end. I won't even comment on the ridiculousness of several plotpoints.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 02:19:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
It's not a bad thing that the lands have become synonoumous with the Chosen that inhabit them, however its a recognizable fact of the Kingdoms that as long as Khelaben and Larael are in place then the Lords system is safe.
Synonymous with the Chosen that live there? Excuse me? Most people who think of Waterdeep aren't thinking of Laeral and Khelben, they're thinking of a large, vibrant city. If they think of Khelben and Laeral at all, it's a case of "Oh, yeah, they live there." Ditto for Alustriel -- Silverymoon is known for its appreciation of the arts, not for its former ruler.
And the Lords system is safe so long as Khelben and Laeral live there? You've not read some of the recent books, have you? In Elfsong the system came under attack, and again in the recent Waterdeep novel by Ed and Elaine. It's hardly safe because of two people. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 02:25:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
For me, its the quality that this person is unique in the Realms and its not his adventures that sets him apart but his personality, attitudes, and history.
I appreciate that, too... But I'm not seeing where it required for a character to be some sort of ruler or something just to be interesting. |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 02:45:25
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Charles: As you note, Ian Fleming's no longer with us, and that's why it's arguably okay for other authors to write Bond novels. It would be an act of discourtesy and ingratitude on WotC's part if, for example, they let somebody other than Elaine Cunningham do a Danilo novel.
Now, if I thought having Danilo make a cameo appearance in my book would be cool, and I got Elaine's permission, that might be different. That's something that might conceivably, legitimately happen because we're working in the same shared world. But for someone else to make Danilo the central character in a story--no. That should never happen. We authors don't own this work-for-hire universe, but it's only fair that the publisher recognizes our vested interest in popular characters we create for it. |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 02:47:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps:
No offense but Forgotten Realms is probably the least intrigue ridden game world in D&D.
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You’ve made some valid arguments in this thread, Mr. Phipps, but when I read this comment I wonder if I should believe ANY of your attempts to tie your arguments to the Realms.
Ed Greenwood and many other Realms authors on these boards and at YEARS of GenCon panels I’ve attended (more than fifteen years!) have had plenty to say about various intrigues unfolding in the Realms. It’s usually what a lot of Realms fans at the cons want most to talk about.
The Realms may as a game setting be inherently simpler (so it can be flexible for lots of DMs) than some fiction-only fantasy settings - though not many; Middle-Earth and George Martin’s Westeros are the only ones I can think of - but I think it’s THE most intrigue-riddled fantasy gaming setting.
I honestly can’t believe you’ve read many Realms books if you think otherwise. Your comments about the Chosen here in this thread back up that suspicion, as far as I’m concerned. You seem to have bought in to the “Chosen are Greenwood’s comic-book Mary Sue superheroes” nonsense - which only stands up for people who don’t read many Realms game and fiction releases that involve them (er, Denning and Avatar trilogy excepted).
But go ahead. Convince me otherwise.
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 02:52:13
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Oh, and a postscript:
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps:
No offense but Forgotten Realms is probably the least intrigue ridden game world in D&D.
This isn't a criticism but a natural consequence of very few kingdoms and only a few city-states.
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I agree with Winterfox that intrigue doesn't require big kingdoms and lots of city-states.
However, you confuse me again: the Realms has more detailed and developed city-states (and as many detailed large lands, too, come to think of it) than any other published fantasy game setting I can think of. Tekumel, maybe.
(I do have fifty or sixty fantasy game settings on my shelf, BTW.) |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 02:54:03
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Bluebeard, frankly, my opinions are my own and whether you honestly believe them or not is your own business but I personally find it a tad umbraging you don't think that I could come to a different conclusion than you reading the same works.
For me, the Chosen are immutable and important parts of the Realms. I don't like their depiction to be as ordinary mortals and I don't think that gamers who want them to be 'knocked down a peg or two' can properly appreciate the role of demigods (which what they are in a sense) in the Realms. I don't consider them Mary Sues....since I doubt Ed has any desire to be a pretty silver haired sorceress but I consider them invincible and inviolate forces of nature.
Given how many years I've run the Realms, I hope you'd have enough respect for someone else's mileage may vary.
Song of the Saurials
The Return of the Archwizards Trilogy
The Avatar Trilogy
Prince of Lies
The Crucible of Cyric the Mad
Evermeet
Elfsong
Elfblade
Thronehold
Dream Spheres
Elfshadow
Silver Shadow
The Moonshaes Trilogy and its sequel Trilogy
Silverfall
The Cormyr Trilogy
The Legacy
Starless Night
Siege of Darkness
Passage to Dawn
Homeland
Streams of Silver
The Crystal Shard
The Halfling's Gem
The Cleric's Quintet
Exile
Sojourn
The Silent Blade
The Spine of the World
Servant of the Shard
Sea of Swords
The Thousand Orcs
The Lone Drow
The Two Swords
The Drow Series (with Lolth's raise to new heights of power, Danifae, and so on)
Tales of the Underdark (I know that's not the title but I can't find it)
The Liriel Baenre Books
Elminster: The Making of a Mage
Elminster in Myth Drannor
The Temptation of Elminster
Elminster in Hell
Elminster's Daughter
The Simbul's Gift
The Daemonfae Book 1 (I don't recall much about it sadly)
Waterdeep
I admit, this may not be enough for me to qualify as an expert in your mind but this is my entire experience with the Realms outside of the games.
So admittedly, I won't be commenting on Everis Cale any time soon.
I do admit though, looking over my books, my tastes and experience with the Realms may be deliberately making me think of the Realms more in terms of 'series' characters than they are in individual adventures. There's a lot of 'iconic' characters here series but very few standalones.
Its probably why I didn't understand or appreciate the way Waterdeep was written. I was expecting a book on Khel.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 27 Mar 2006 03:08:45 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 03:11:23
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While I’d rather not take sides in this thread (as a longtime fiction editor, I’ve been pleased at a lot of the points made by various parties here), I do have to comment on this last post by Charles.
I don’t know how many years you’ve run the Realms, but I’ve played in them with Ed Greenwood as a DM for more than 25 years.
Almost ALL of our Realmsplay has been intrigue, intrigue, and more intrigue. Many game sessions don’t involve a single character drawing a weapon or casting a spell.
Now, there are many differences between the published Realms and Ed’s original, but when I look at TSR’s/WotC’s Realms I see a great deal of the intrigue at least mentioned, that Ed put in there in our game sessions.
I’m afraid you’ll probably be as extremely offended at this as you were at Blueblade’s posts, but I see more intrigue in the Realms than in any other game world I’ve read or used. And he’s right: it DOES have a lot of city-states.
I was a little surprised to read that statement about the Realms being “Intrigue Lite,” too. It’s like saying the Realms is “Magic Lite.”
I’m glad to see we agree on the Chosen, though.
(I wonder what you’ll think of BLACKSTAFF, when it comes out?)
love,
THO
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 03:15:06
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I forgot to mention the Shandril Trilogy.
Oh and why exactly would I be offended? I honestly couldn't care less. You're just voicing an opinion and a valid interpretation of the Realms. I'm sure in many games intrigue is used. I mentioned several times that I didn't want to argue the point. It was an observation honestly.
If I'm wrong. I'm wrong.
Certainly, intrigue can play a massive part in your games and you may see it where I don't.
:shrugs: |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 27 Mar 2006 03:18:44 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 03:26:36
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I mentioned BLACKSTAFF, BTW, because it IS that "book about Khel" you were expecting.
One of the ongoing debates in-house at WotC, according to Ed, is the balance between showing us novice heroes (social "nobodies" when their tale begins), and too often putting the focus on rulers, royalty, guildmasters, and Big Wheels. That dovetails with the debate about "small heroics" versus Realms-Shaking-Events.
You've mentioned heroes "changing the world" in some of your posts in this thread. Where (for your tastes) would you put the balance?
Or is it over here for some books, and over there for others?
(I'm not trolling or waiting to pounce on your reply; I'm honestly curious.)
love,
THO |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 03:40:23
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Thanks for the recommendation!
I'll respond to you just as soon as I finish this game I'm DMing. A bit tongue and cheek about Beholders invading via spelljamming. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 03:57:30
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That's a very difficult question "Hooded One" and its one that strikes at the core of an author's preferences I think. I think its important to note I don't disagree with people in saying that the consequences of an adventure don't have to be Realmshaking. I do think it tends to HELP but yes, Homeland is the best of the Drizzt books and its really only about Drizzt leaving. None of us care what happens in Menzoberrazan because the entire point is the poisonous environment living or dying matters little. It's about escape.
For me I think it depends largely on the characters.
I don't expect Drizzt Do'Urden to be involved in epic quests to destroy the god Bane honestly. While I don't think that there should be any warrior better than Drizzt (or at least that Drizzt is considered one of the greatest swordsmen of the Realms), I do think that he's largely better suited for more down to Toril adventures. Arilyn Moonblade also is likewise a character that is best tied solely to either dealing with the plots of her 'archnemesis' in Kymil or lower level plots.
In the meantime, I think stories of Elminster and whatever champions he chooses to make should best deal on a fairly more cosmic scale. Clash of the Titans is what I'm thinking honestly with moves and countermoves between the gods. The (I can't spell their blasted name but those extradimensional horrors that have a name that starts with "M") conflict seems like a fun 'war' for El to be involved in even if I haven't yet read the books about it.
At the most, I think good villains should be more than just local thugs though. The Drizzt stories work best when fighting Matron Baenre, Alkar Kessel & The Crystal Shard, plus Errtu. Killing pirates and thieves guilds leader (even if Regis' fear made them better) just aren't really as impressive as they should be. As people to fight along the way? Yes. Less so as the 'main villains.'
I guess the best way I can phrase my idea behind how powerful the enemy and how big the change is how high the stature of the protagionist is.
At the least, I think each book should go down as a local legend and have some impact on the forces of evil in a region.
As for changing the world, I think a hero should also have one thing that they 'change' tacked onto them. Recommendations that pop up to me...
1. Drizzt Do'urden has inspired many Eilistraee converts to come out of almost total and complete isolation to try and forge an identity seperate from their fellows. It often has many tragedies but as a real consequence of Drizzt's actions, the 'Drow! Kill!' reaction is slowly changing.
Likewise, many Drow beneath the ground have heard of his life as an alternative.
2. Arilyn Moonblade might have serious impacted Half-Elf/Elven relations and slowly but surely are many of the sacred ways being taught to half-elves instead of just to 'purebloods' while resistance to them is becoming hardened but also less widespread.
Arilyn might eventually be accepted as a full princess of the realms.
and so on...
Small things outside of the adventures themselves but at least a visible impact traceable to them. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 27 Mar 2006 04:05:05 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 04:13:15
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Ah. So you're seeking as heroes characters who do (sometimes small, that turn out to be) "things that matter" in the wider Realms, as opposed to Things That Shake The Realms.
I think the Malaugrym are great foils for Elminster, too.
Interestingly, Ed never wanted to write the Elminster books (just as he never wanted to kill off Shandril).
He wanted El to be a supporting character only.
Me, I'm looking forward to SWORDS OF EVENINGSTAR and its sequels, wherein Ed shows us the genesis of the Knights of Myth Drannor adventuring band ( *cough* our PCs plus some of his NPCs *cough*), as they start out as adventure-seeking teenagers.
love,
THO |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 04:31:59
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yeah, pretty much.
It doesn't necessarily need to be "I killed the King of Aquilonia and took over."
(Though I think villains like Fzoul and even Jaxarle should have such grandiose ambitions because...well they're evil)
But some wider context would be appreciated.
I wonder why the Powers that Be wanted Shandril dead. It seems a strange request.
But yes, that book looks interesting indeed.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 27 Mar 2006 04:40:19 |
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Beezy
Learned Scribe
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 07:31:36
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I did not see the death of Shandril coming either.
I am also looking forward to Ed's new novels. I have enjoyed what I have seen of the Knights of Myth Dranoor in his other novels and look forward to seeing some of the early exploits. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 09:04:04
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OK, I think I made most of my points clear in the villains thread and I think also here in this thread...
When I started playing AD&D back some time ago I played on Krynn and started to read DragonLance. It was a fun read, at that time. After a while it grew boring, not the prose mind you, although the world on the brink of destruction and in need of saving all the bloody time grew tiresome. For the same reason I preferred Babylon 5 over Star Trek. If you read basically the same thing over and over again ... Bond bores me the same way, as do a very many computer games.
Charles, why do you read the Realms novels and play in the setting? Judging from all the statements I read posted by you, you would be very much more at home in DragonLance.
I came to the realms because I wanted a damn huge deal of variety and a world where the actions of any character did not have such an impact as to be the next Caramon or Raistlin. Krynn didn't offer that to me. If you want to read/play world-shaking events on a daily basis stop playing in the Realms and switch to DragonLance, it would save you and us a lot of energy discussing something that seems to be very important to you and we, at this point, could care less about, at least in regard to try to argue and point out flaws in your logic to you with you blatantly ignoring them.
Frankly said, you, Charles, as a self-professed creative person, show an incredible narrow-mindedness, and it annoys me to no end to read your perspective over and over and friggin over again while you do not even pause to consider what we say. At least we try to jump into your boots, while you steadfastedly refuse to do so.
If you think there is no intrigue in the Realms I wonder what you think of the doings of Cormyrian nobles plotting against Azoun and Alussair, Sembian merchants basically plotting against everything and everyone, Waterdhavian merchants wanting to subvert the Lords... I could go on and on and you would still not see the point.
If you want larger than life heroics and larger than life threats bouncing on every bloody corner read something else.
To the mods: I am tired and thus grumpy, plus as you can tell I am tired of this chap's ramblings... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 09:37:04
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To Mods: I'm quite the opposite and am completely unoffended by anything he says and hope he'll feel the same soon. I apologize if at any point I've been turt
Mace, my opinion is formed after playing and reading Forgotten Realms since I picked up my copy of Homeland in the year it was published. That was a hell of a long time ago. This isn't a competition and if I happen to disagree with you, its not like it matters a great deal. I'm not trying to change your opinions but forward my perspective. You're extremely right that you prefer your books a certain way.
Why are you so upset that I prefer mine a different way? I enjoy reading your discussions and I consider them a great deal. I hold you all in very high regard and frankly, in the terms of being a "creative person" I could only hope you would read my books with the same perspective you do yours and judge them to be trash or treasure at your leisure. At the very least I know you'd give it a fair rub and that's all any author can ask for.
Don't take it personally. I really enjoy your conversations here and statements along with Winterfox and everyone else whose posted here. If I haven't established how much I appreciate your statements then by all means let me inform you that they're most delightful and a high point of my day to read. They also hold a lot of truth. If I'm not convinced otherwise then don't take it poorly.
Oh and you did convince me on the intrigue bit. Its now second highest amount on further reflection (perhaps third under Birthright and Eberron that make infight and politics part of the setting focus) but higher than the rest.
However, let me clarify something....
Why do I prefer Forgotten Realms over Dragonlance (and other settings)
I love Dragonlance. I love Eberron. I briefly enjoyed games of Ravenloft and Birthright. But I always keep coming back to Forgotten Realms.
First of all, here's Toril to me. Toril to me is essentially a wild and untamed land that exists largely with creepy, crawlie, dark and disturbing things behind every corner. It's a land of ancient and superior cultures that have since fallen to ruin and the majority of the land is at a state considered barbaric to these once great civilizations. They exist in the shadow of the tombs of ancient archwizards and magical artifacts designed to destroy the world or remake it but which they don't disturb. The majority of citizenry on Toril gets by essentially by saying "Do not enter yonder Haunted Woods or you'll die." Maybe it could be a Basilisk that lives there or a Tribe of Orcs or maybe it could be a 30th level Lich.
Toril is a scary place where you honestly never know what's beyond the next corner. More than that, there's MYSTERY to the setting and a sense of the magical. Not magical as in "I cast X spell and Y effect happens" but a sense of wonder lacking from Dragonlance. Dragonlance is very easy to digest reading, its a coherent setting that operates on a very simple set of rules and its very enjoyable for that. However, its the most 'normal' setting of D&D by far that its hard to be surprised by it. For me, Toril is closest to Conan's Hyborea where the players are expected to truck with gods.
Speaking of which, I LOVE the gods of Toril. They're arrogant, egotistic, hubris (ironic) ridden, vain, and I know I'm using a lot of synonyms for prideful....jerks. Even the best of them can't see beyond their own face and that's what makes them enjoyable. In Dragonlance, you have the semi-Judeo Christian simplicity of Paladine and company but in Forgotten Realms its entirely possible Tyr could screw up in his plans and need his priests to pull his ass out of the fire.
For me, the players are characters whom in Forgotten Reams get to play the games of the gods. In Dragonlance you get to be Aragorn (Tanis Half Elven) or Frodo (Tasslehoff) but in Forgotten Realms, you get to be Perseus or Achilles. For me, the feel of Forgotten Realms is that it fits the Realms if the 8th level party is chosen by Elminster (that wonderful hand of Fate that he is) to go quest for the Specter of the Sorcerer Kings and at the end of the campaign use that maguffin to kill Cyric. In the Moonshae adventure by Ed Greenwood "Halls of the High King" you get to kill Xvim at the end of the adventure.
No other game captures EPIC without having to be Epic Level.
I often end up using Basil Podrus' soundtrack to my games as just thinking about all the hours of adventure I've had I feel like saying "Between the time when the oceans drank Evermeet and the rise of the sons of Obarskyr's Second Dynasty, there was an age undreamed of. And onto this, <insert player's name>, destined to wear the jeweled crown of Cormyr upon a troubled brow. It is I, his chronicler, who alone can tell thee of his saga. Let me tell you of the days of high adventure!"
Forgotten Realms: Where the Mightiest and Greatest Heroes of D&D apply their resumes ;-)
This is how I play my game of course, not necessarily how I expect the novels to go. However; my favorite novels are the Shandril Saga, the Crystal Shard, the Cormyr Saga, The Crucible and Prince of Lies, Elminster Making of a Mage and Elminster Making of Myth Drannor, Homeland, and I wish I could find a place where Azoun killed the leader of the Tugian Horde. Excluding Homeland, its BIG adventures and tell tales of grand and sweeping heroism.
Also, my favorite adventures can tell you a lot about what I love most about the Realms. My favorite adventures? For Duty and Deity and the aforementioned Halls of the High King. In grand Persephone like fashion, rescue a Goddess! Plus also lay low Bane's evil son. I also routinely run the Avatar adventures except with the players taking the place of Midnight, Cyric, and Kelemvor (often being the ones to slay the gods they only help kill in the modules).
Please Mace, I don't ask you to like my opinion but at least acknowledge its backed up by the material. I don't want you to think of me as narrow minded or be ruining your fun on these boards. I'm having a ball.
***
FYI- Mace and Winterfox, I fully expect you from what you've described to say you absolutely hate what I like and think it represents everything wrong with fantasy. Just as a note, I don't mind that. I respect your opinion and think you want VERY good potential stories.
It's not what got me to love Forgotten Realms but I have no opposition to what you like? Can't we meet on this there's room for both sides?
;-)
(The weirdest part is I like personal and low scale stories TOO, its just not what attracted me to FR)
So if it makes you feel better. I utterly and completely concede. Under your direction I'm sure that Forgotten Realms would be very different from how I envision it but no less enjoyable. We just see it through different lens. So I hope that puts to rest any concerns I don't see your point |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 27 Mar 2006 09:57:59 |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 12:51:06
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If you're only really familiar with the Forgotten Realms as it's presented in the majority of the novels, you could certainly be forgiven for thinking there's not much intrigue in the Realms.
However, as sourcebooks such as Lords of Darkness and Cloak and Dagger reveal, the FR is without a doubt one of the *most* intrigue filled RPG settings. There are at least two dozen Realms-based organizations who focus on the stealthy, shadowy and subtle side of things, from the Shadow Thieves and the Knights of the Shield (especially the Shield Council), to the churches of Mask and Shar, to the Unseen and the Twisted Rune.
In fact, of all the settings I know of (which is quite a few), only the original World of Darkness had more espionage, conspiracies, manipulations, and machinations than the Realms. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 13:20:40
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| Ah, World of Darkness. My only exposure to it was through the Vampires: the Masquerade CRPGs, and even then I couldn't help being fascinated with all the hinted and potential intrigues. (I just wish they'd shown more clans in Bloodlines. And more on the Sabbat. Even the relatively simplistic plot with the Prince, the eastern kindred, Anarch, and within the Camarilla made me salivate for more.) |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 22:32:30
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*long, thoughtful silence as the person behind the 'Mace' ;-) lights another cigarette* Charles *puffs some smoke into the air* I read your last post several times now and *takes a drag from the cig again* well first off the bad stuff (not really bad but I like being dramatic):
It is Basil Poledouris if I am not mistaken :-P
Second: Tanis was never intended as an Aragorn-wanna-be (I got this information firsthand almost a decade ago, damn I feel old now) Margaret Weis told me he was based on Cpt Kirk, so there ;-)
As to your point of view...well, why the bloody hell didn't you say something earlier? Frankly said, I thought you a (and now a german phrase because I'm too tired to think of an appropriate translation, so look it up :-P ) neunmal kluger Dummschwätzer who had absolutely no clue what we (and not the pluralis majestatis) were talking about.
I see I was wrong, your attraction to the Realms is different to mine (and others) but I can live with that.
For future reference, please do us the favor and elaborate your opinion so I won't have to bang my head against the next solid thing, which incidentally is an I-don't-know-how-many centuries old wooden pole. Let me assure you, THAT hurts almost as much as considering you an imbecile (which you clearly are NOT!!!)
If I ever see your book on a shelf over here I think I might give it a spin... and then give you my opinion.
And regarding the Avatar trilogy, I wish Troy Denning had written all three books and not just Waterdeep. The other dude... I wanted to re-read Avatar a while back and I could not, the horror... I guess after I don't know how many years of writing you get an eye for bad prose etc. It's a shame, really, maybe someone at Wizards will decide, eventually, that they have to do a remake of the trilogy, hell, if they do it on TV and in movies, why the hell not with novels also? |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 23:02:10
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| The problem with opinions without the reasoning behind them is that the listener/reader cannot see into the mind of the speaker/writer. It's the same with prose, the author might know why a person is doing what he does, but without a little explanation the reader will just think it too random... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2006 : 00:14:53
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Interestingly, the debate here touches on several aspects of another discussion at WotC's FR boards just a little while ago. It was the thread comparing Eberron and FR. Charles Phipps' view of FR, almost a Hyperborean outlook, with the characters as Conan-like larger-than-life heroes, was the exact opposite of what someone was arguing, that FR lacks a place for individual world changing heroes that start lowly and rise to legendary status in an appropriately harsh and gritty world.
For the most part, the Eberron supporters also said FR has little or no intrigue. The reaction from the forum members was similar as here, no one understood why the Eberronites felt FR has no political intrigue when it is clearly and often bluntly stated in the sourcebook, though perhaps it is not as pronounced in the novels (I wouldn't know, I rarely read FR novels).
Goes to show, everyone's individual interpretation of the setting is very different. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2006 : 00:21:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
Ah, World of Darkness. My only exposure to it was through the Vampires: the Masquerade CRPGs, and even then I couldn't help being fascinated with all the hinted and potential intrigues. (I just wish they'd shown more clans in Bloodlines. And more on the Sabbat. Even the relatively simplistic plot with the Prince, the eastern kindred, Anarch, and within the Camarilla made me salivate for more.)
You'd greatly enjoy it, I think. Contact me by PM for more details(*Alaundo glances daggers*), but I can see it fitting you like a *glove*. |
Edited by - Arivia on 28 Mar 2006 00:21:38 |
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Heroes in Novels
Topic Locked
