| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 23:47:46
|
One of the challenges of writing a character whose open-ended adventures go on for a zillion books is that he can't change too much, not permanently, anyway. Because if he did, the series would forfeit the elements that won it its fans in the first place, and maybe the internal logic of the uber-story would indicate that the hero would give up doing whatever it is he does that makes for exciting adventures.
This means the series may eventually prove unsatisfying for readers who feel that ongoing character evolution is essential to make fiction worthwhile. They're probably better off reading stand-alone novels or limited sequences where the writer intends to steer the protagonist to some sort of stopping place rather than bring him back for sequel after sequel. |
 |
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2006 : 00:46:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
One of the challenges of writing a character whose open-ended adventures go on for a zillion books is that he can't change too much, not permanently, anyway. Because if he did, the series would forfeit the elements that won it its fans in the first place, and maybe the internal logic of the uber-story would indicate that the hero would give up doing whatever it is he does that makes for exciting adventures.
This means the series may eventually prove unsatisfying for readers who feel that ongoing character evolution is essential to make fiction worthwhile. They're probably better off reading stand-alone novels or limited sequences where the writer intends to steer the protagonist to some sort of stopping place rather than bring him back for sequel after sequel.
True, sales may be a point there. Thomas Covenant refused to believe in the Land also, at least for a while. It was his unbelieve that at least carried the first series.
Yet, it would be nice to actually see some change in the people, maybe not in Drizzt so much as in Cattie-Brie and Wulfgar. Drizzt, after all, is out of his 'teens' now, and it took him quite a while, as it does with all elves. Wulfgar as single-daddy, changing diapers and all that, now that is an image I would love to see. Raising a child and going, as a father, through the same horror Bruenor went through with his two adopted children. Colson's first date, her driver's license, her prom... no wait... never mind
Mace *need sleep* Hammerhand |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
TymoraChosen
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2006 : 01:43:57
|
Strange, these days, the old and new generation of readers tend to have very different expectations of what they want from the FR novels...sigh, a common middle ground should be found. Sigh.
Halcyon's and Silvermage's words are not wrong and nothing is disagreeable with their words in my eyes. Afterall, they are voicing what they and their fellows wish from the novels and I don't see any reason to disagree with them, afterall, imagination and creativity and inspiration is the driving force behind the authors to write a fantastic novel. Also, feedback and comments from readers shouldn't be "shot down" with disagreements and "you go read other novels" answers, afterall, they both are merely voicing what they expect from the novels, but the final decision lies with the authors on how they want to write the novels after good feedback from the readers. Isn't good feedback and strong desire for change another driving force behind authors to write even better novels?
A revolutionary change from the conventional hero style are what the FR books need now. We need some changes in the way the heroes are written, to keep up the spirit of imagination and dreams.
True, for FR novels, I and my fellows all agree that for FR novels that are based on a fantasy world, incorporation of real-life realism into the novels should be included so as to make the characters realistic and life-like but it should be balanced with imagination and fantasy inspired ideas(of course that includes outrageous and what is thought as far-fetched and impossible ideas), this would provide the readers a escape ground from the tyranny of everyday life, letting them read and feel things that are never felt, dream of things other than what they already have in life but dream of things that are not possible in real-life such as magic, and never experienced in life and make the reader feel "carried along for a roller coaster ride in the novel" and make the reader feel "as if they are in the fantasy environment described by the novel". Afterall, who would want to read novels that shows the characters as the equivalent of what the reader and everyday people are in with no fantasy, impossible and wild ideas put into the characters? I and my fellows wouldn't read such kind of stuff, much less purchase it. |
May tymora's blessings be heaped on all |
Edited by - TymoraChosen on 25 Mar 2006 01:50:56 |
|
|
|
Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2006 : 02:42:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by TymoraChosen
Strange, these days, the old and new generation of readers tend to have very different expectations of what they want from the FR novels...sigh, a common middle ground should be found. Sigh.
I get the impression that it's not so much "old and new generations" as "people who have read fantasy a lot and people who are fantasy newbies."
quote:
Halcyon's and Silvermage's words are not wrong and nothing is disagreeable with their words in my eyes. Afterall, they are voicing what they and their fellows wish from the novels and I don't see any reason to disagree with them, afterall, imagination and creativity and inspiration is the driving force behind the authors to write a fantastic novel.
People post opinions. People disagree with them. Welcome to a public forum. Besides, the ideas suggested are about as creative and imaginative as putting butter on toast.
quote:
Also, feedback and comments from readers shouldn't be "shot down" with disagreements and "you go read other novels" answers, afterall
I'm sure they aren't widdle babies who are so sensitive that these posts would have been viewed as "shooting down." Because if they're that sensitive, what are they doing in a public forum?
quote:
A revolutionary change from the conventional hero style are what the FR books need now. We need some changes in the way the heroes are written, to keep up the spirit of imagination and dreams.
Bzuh? It's not revolutionary. About as revolutionary because, and this needs to be emphasized, putting butter on toast. People have been telling you this, again and again and again. Do you just skip every post that disagrees with you period?
Regarding the last chunk of your post -- who exactly are objecting to "impossible and wild ideas"? As far as I can see, people are just objecting to the fact that the oh-so-wild ideas you've proposed are about as wild as a domesticized house dog on the account of -- let's say this again -- being as original and unconventional as putting butter on toast. |
|
|
|
Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2006 : 03:21:10
|
quote:
I get the impression that it's not so much "old and new generations" as "people who have read fantasy a lot and people who are fantasy newbies."
Strange, I would have thought you to be much more experienced :-)
But yes, for me its important to not put too much in the way of demands in FR novels. I believe that some of them are extremely good but I also think that they have a particular enjoyment factor that should not be disturbed too much. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
|
Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2006 : 03:54:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
I get the impression that it's not so much "old and new generations" as "people who have read fantasy a lot and people who are fantasy newbies."
Strange, I would have thought you to be much more experienced :-)
What? |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
|
|
Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2006 : 04:23:07
|
Just a joke that we disagree a great deal and I think I'm probably as experienced in fantasy as you.
;-)
Don't worry, I won't make any more gentle jibes like that Mr. Mod man.
|
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
|
Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2006 : 04:46:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Just a joke that we disagree a great deal and I think I'm probably as experienced in fantasy as you.
I was referring to the people who were going on and on and on about how unconventional and creative the ideas they proposed are. And considering that the person I replied to is one of those, I'm not sure why you felt the need to feel that it was addressed to you. |
|
|
|
Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
|
|
scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2006 : 04:55:54
|
And this all pertains to heroes in the realms how???? 
As far as the topic, I am starting to like the different styles that are surfacing in realms literature. It seems to me, that WOTC is steering away from the typical stereotype of D&D that was seen in the past. I can give an example of the first pools book, it was predictable from the start, as almost seeming to be a D&D game session. (this is even with my, I truly enjoyed the trilogy and it's purpose clause). |
|
|
|
Smyther
Learned Scribe
Canada
121 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2006 : 20:17:57
|
This, along with the 'Villains' topic, has been a very interesting read (although almost a bit of a 'Cold Flame War').
I can't say I have much to contribute to the actual topic, as most of the thoughts in my head have run in similar circles to these. If you do something so rare and different and everybody starts doing it, then the rare and different become common, and the ordinary becomes rare and different. It's not a vicious cycle - it's snowballing into the realms of the extremely wierd.
However, I would like to say that I would very much appreciate similar critiquing along these lines on my own short story posted on these boards (about the length of a standard story in a FR anthology).
http://www.candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4678
I'd like to get some various viewpoints on it, especially some harsh and realistic criticism from Winterfox, as I'm hoping to send it in as a writing sample to Wizards. I don't know if it would be enough to pique their interest in an aspiring novelist, but I still feel it's worth a shot.
It features non-special protagonists and non-uber villains, and I'd like to see how this jibes with the thoughts of people posting or reading these threads.
Sorry I don't have much to contribute to the discussion. |
So sayeth the Smyther, the Dark Bard of Amn. |
|
|
|
Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 09:24:48
|
For me, I think we need more characters that are important to the realms upfront with heroes. Midnight, Kelemvor, Elminster, and Finder are amongst the few heroes whom have really changed the Realms. Azoun and company also fall into that way.
Basically, we need heroes who make an impact. The Sellswords fails because what do Jaxarle and Artemis accomplish in the story? All they do is destroy a book that was never known about before and will obviously never be refernced again. If Jaxarle and Artemis actually conquered Bloodstone then THAT would be an achievement. Ditto, Drizzt destroying the emerging orc kingdom.
Characters must either change themselves or change the world.
|
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 09:42:10
|
The last thing I want is more "change the world" characters... I got enough of that when I was reading comic books. I like seeing people have an impact, but I prefer the smaller-scale stories. You can only have so many villains of the week or imminent global disasters before it gets boring and/or wildly implausible.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
If Jaxarle and Artemis actually conquered Bloodstone then THAT would be an achievement. Ditto, Drizzt destroying the emerging orc kingdom.
I'm no fan of RAS, due in no small part to the fact that I'm tired of seeing the same characters over and over and over again (though, honestly, I don't blame that on him). Had either of these events happened, I'd've sworn off RAS books altogether. And I'm not the only one.
Two people conquering a nation? One person destroying an entire kingdom? Thanks, but I don't want Rambo in my Realms. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Mar 2006 09:43:56 |
|
|
|
Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 09:54:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Two people conquering a nation? One person destroying an entire kingdom? Thanks, but I don't want Rambo in my Realms.
Seconded so much.
I've had more "CHANGE TEH WORLD ONEONEONE" characters in generic hack fantasy than I can stomach already. In a shared world, that sort of characters would be even less feasible -- as Wooly said, you can have so many imminent disasters before it becomes tiresome or downright implausible. Look at Evermeet and Evereska -- they've gone through Evermeet: Island of Elves, Return of the Archwizards trilogy, and now the Last Mythal. They're like freaking punching bags. |
|
|
|
Defender
Acolyte
24 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 10:29:01
|
Hmm...this is a very interesting topic and it had been some time since I posted. I had read the comments from the previous posts and I know whose sharp words to look out for especially, for they will "be met by unyielding and undying defense."
But allow me to say something, first, I must agree with Mr Charles Phipps, for we need more characters that are important to the realms upfront with heroes, but in my opinion, a bit "more permanent" heroes where they are tested in different environments and goals, and of coure their character. A bit "more permanent" heroes by me means that the heroes are to be actively involved in the realms' affairs and being the prime highlight in every novel involving them besides the villains(which can be different and varying, of course I had no wish to see anymore "established villains" such as the Zhents, Banites, Cyricists and Dragon Cult.) For each time a novel comes up with a different new hero, it makes it hard to keep track of this particular hero and initial interest in this hero will wane overtime for readers hoping to get to read more about their heroes get disappointed, such as RAS who write his "established" heroes in different novels with different plot lines. Also, it is hard to keep up interest in the realms and there is "no development and insight into the "popular" character and his/her actions."
Secondly, I understand that sometimes novels that have "realm-shaking events" and "change the world events" by heroes do sell like "hotcakes" and may not be so favored by veteran readers. I agree with this to a certain degree, true, heroes kicking villains asses across miles on Faerun and slugging it out with patriotically inspired or whatever inspired armies are quite common these days but lessened but one cannot deny the impact they caused on the imagination of readers besides the effect on the realms.
My pro on having such events is that: It shows that the realms are not static and stagnant, it is a world that reflects similary the world we live in and the curse of sentience-empires, ambitions and wars. It gives the heroes broader roles to play and keeps them from getting stagnant and encourages development of heroes' character, and keeps the passion and popularity of the heroes alive and keep them from fading away into dust such as Finder, Alias and her Paladin friend whereby do we see them today? Previously popular, now almost faded into the dust of history. But if there no such events and no heroes taking on newer challenges, wouldn't that make the realms a boring place other than the small-scale plots which overtime can bore the reader's interest. Also, with change and revolution, can stanagtion and decay be avoided. Example, if Evermeet don't bite the bullet now, will future readers be interested about Evermeet, if I were them, I would "merely regard Evermeet as another boring place with boring history for other than their romance and culture and a last place for the elves, there is nothing worth of action in there." Also, Evermeet would be "stagnant" whereby the elves there are "almost indirectly" stagnant.
My cons on having such events is that: I know many readers want favorite places and people in the realms such as fabled Evermeet to remain kind of "intact" as these are their favored places. I do admit I also want some places in the realms to be "kept intact". For I do agree to a certain degree that too much change and revolution may be no good and lose the readers' interest. Also, some want their heroes kind of "to be intact" and that means not involved in big hot realm-kicking action that would result in "them buying the farm" on whatever land they fought in.
My "commonground" is that heroes should be involved in a balance of realms-kicking action and small-scale plots so as to keep readers' interest from waning. But there can be no denial that it is through revolutionary changes and dynamic plotlines(which these may or may not be in the favor of different types of readers) that heroic characters are kept from stagnation and fading into history as relics. Besides that, if heroes are to improve, to become better, similarly, the realms should also "improve and become better" through actions that may or may not be in the favor of readers, majority or not for isn't it true that "actions of one or a group shape the world and world events?". If there is no change in the heroes and the realms, wouldn't the realms become boring and stagnant? I certainly would not stand for this, so does my fellows. |
Justice is swift and will strike when you least expect it. |
|
|
|
Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 11:41:54
|
quote:
The last thing I want is more "change the world" characters... I got enough of that when I was reading comic books. I like seeing people have an impact, but I prefer the smaller-scale stories. You can only have so many villains of the week or imminent global disasters before it gets boring and/or wildly implausible.
Except comic books never change anything Wooley. They exist in a never changing status quo that is the problem. The point of heroes is that they leave a lasting impact on society. In the case of Superman, the point shouldn't be that he stops Lex Luthor week after week, the point should be he changes Africa to a green and fertile delta or advances technology 5 years or something else that changes society.
Less grandiose but certainly a hero overthrows a dictatorship or the like.
quote:
Two people conquering a nation? One person destroying an entire kingdom? Thanks, but I don't want Rambo in my Realms.
As opposed to.....
What do heroes DO then Wooley?
quote:
I've had more "CHANGE TEH WORLD ONEONEONE" characters in generic hack fantasy than I can stomach already. In a shared world, that sort of characters would be even less feasible -- as Wooly said, you can have so many imminent disasters before it becomes tiresome or downright implausible. Look at Evermeet and Evereska -- they've gone through Evermeet: Island of Elves, Return of the Archwizards trilogy, and now the Last Mythal. They're like freaking punching bags.
You don't need disasters Winterfox to have heroes change things. The Realms are loaded down with evil secret societies and Evil AfootTM. The books should introduce problems and change the status quo at least a little bit honestly. The creation of the Silver Marches is an example of a massive change in the realms that could have been done by a single character.
I mean, does the land really become beyond the pale if in Chesstnea there's a Trilogy about a warrior who unites the Kingdom? The Thayan Novel chronicles the Red Wizards taking over Unther. Something like that?
quote:
It gives the heroes broader roles to play and keeps them from getting stagnant and encourages development of heroes' character, and keeps the passion and popularity of the heroes alive and keep them from fading away into dust such as Finder, Alias and her Paladin friend whereby do we see them today? Previously popular, now almost faded into the dust of history.
I agree honestly, a small group of heroes we always know are doing whats up would certainly benefit the Realms rather than ones we never hear of again.
|
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
|
Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 15:20:39
|
Charles: Have you read The Authority, Squadron Supreme (I'm talking about the orignal miniseries written by Mark Gruenwald; I'm not knowledgable about the remake), or Watchmen? They're all comic stories about superhero types who do try to change the world and not just foil the villain du jour. If you haven't read them already and would like to see this idea explored, you might want to check them out.
Everybody: Interesting split in the opinions being expressed here: Some want characters who develop and grow, which implies that eventually, they outgrow being the kind of guys who star in adventure novels, and we move on to new guys. Others want charismatic heroes who return again and again and again, which means they can't develop and grow beyond certain limits. They have to remain essentially the same no matter what experiences they endure, as James Bond and Batman do. (I realize I'm oversimplifying here and there are exceptions to every rule, but basically, I think I'm onto something.)
If the second idea were to become an ironclad rule of FR writing, there's an interesting implication. It would be incredibly difficult for any new writers to get involved with the series. Because a new guy can't do a Drizzt, Elminster, Danilo, or Erevis story. Only the writers who created those characters can do that. Obviously, I'm grateful that no such policy was in effect when I was trying to land a gig with Wizards.
Personally, I think it's reasonable for the Realms to take both approaches, which is what it does now. There are some popular characters who return on a regular basis, and other characters who go through one great adventure and set of transforming experiences and then we bid them forewell at a dramatically satisfying end point. |
|
|
|
Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 16:47:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Except, this is D&D fiction. Forgotten Realms SHOULDN'T be about court politics and the like but it instead should involve large amounts of swordplay and sorcery because that's what Dungeons and Dragons is about.
  Forgotten Realms shouldn't be about court politics and the like?
Whether it is about FR novels or gameplay, I strongly disagree with your opinion here. I know this is a matter of personal taste and preference, but that is exactly what the Realms I love are about. Just read the novels Ed (Greenwood) has written, and also what he has posted on this great forum about his campaigns (and the Realms in general). To me, Power of Faerun is as close to Heaven as I can ever get  (I sold my soul to Moander a couple of years ago - but don't let Alaundo ever hear of it!)
Do not get me wrong - I like action and swordplay (both in novels and game sessions) - but the greatest part of the Realms, IMHO, is reading, experiencing and feeling the daily life of its inhabitants (both nobles and beggars alike) in detail.
I have grown tired of reading novels with whole chapters of nothing but detailed swordplay as Drizzt hacks and slashes through his opponents.
I think that sorcery, world-shattering events and archmages have been quite prominently featured in FR novels lately, don't you agree? |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 17:02:30
|
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Forgotten Realms shouldn't be about court politics and the like?
Whether it is about FR novels or gameplay, I strongly disagree with your opinion here. I know this is a matter of personal taste and preference, but that is exactly what the Realms I love are about. Just read the novels Ed (Greenwood) has written, and also what he has posted on this great forum about his campaigns (and the Realms in general). To me, Power of Faerun is as close to Heaven as I can ever get (I sold my soul to Moander a couple of years ago - but don't let Alaundo ever hear of it!)
Do not get me wrong - I like action and swordplay (both in novels and game sessions) - but the greatest part of the Realms, IMHO, is reading, experiencing and feeling the daily life of its inhabitants (both nobles and beggars alike) in detail.
I have grown tired of reading novels with whole chapters of nothing but detailed swordplay as Drizzt hacks and slashes through his opponents.
I think that sorcery, world-shattering events and archmages have been quite prominently featured in FR novels lately, don't you agree?
Agrees with you and Charles's comment made me blink but I wasn't going to answer it. But yes, FR was designed to be about the common people as well as adventurers and others but the RSE's were supposed to be rare. That's TSR's and then WOTC's fault for making more and more and more and more, repeat, of them. Myself, I'm tired of the RSE and I still want to know how the elves can field armies since in the last ten in game years they have been attacked at least four or five times and don't even ask me how the North can do the same, since they have as well. Obould's army, then the Shades, and then Last Mythal events. It makes no sense that in five years the armies of the North can continue to field armies. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 19:32:13
|
No offense but Forgotten Realms is probably the least intrigue ridden game world in D&D.
This isn't a criticism but a natural consequence of very few kingdoms and only a few city-states. Forgotten Realms to me is a wild and untamed land largely with crumbling ruins, large swaths of wilderness, and mostly unsettled. Sort of like Conan's Hyborea. Intrigue exists but its closest to Dragonlance than Eberron or Birthright in that there's no real large scale powers.
As for new characters, actually Richard I find that a rather sad aspect of the setting. Bond has been written by several authors and the new take on him is preferrable in my mind than relying so solely on the late Ian Flemmings portrayal. I wouldn't mind new books on Alias and Dragonbait by other authors anymore than I mind Salvatore on Alustriel.
I do admit there needs to be a balance though of new characters with old favorites though. Star Wars is a good model I think with the majority of characters continuing onwards in a tight circle around the Big Three from the movies but plenty of other heroes cropping up like Kyle Katarrn or Darth Revan. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
|
Edited by - Charles Phipps on 26 Mar 2006 19:36:41 |
|
|
|
Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 19:36:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
No offense but Forgotten Realms is probably the least intrigue ridden game world in D&D.
This isn't a criticism but a natural consequence of very few kingdoms and only a few city-states.
Why... would that prevent intrigues and politicking from happening? One single nation can sustain internal politicking fine on its own, you know, without the need for extensive international involvement. Just look at the real world. |
|
|
|
Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 19:40:18
|
quote:
Why... would that prevent intrigues and politicking from happening? One single nation can sustain internal politicking fine on its own, you know, without the need for extensive international involvement. Just look at the real world.
I never said it didn't exist. I said its far less. The travel distances and isolation however make the intrigues far less complex and more isolated. The idea of a powerful nation state just doesn't exist that often and its why Thay, Cormyr, and Evermeet are the only settings for such things.
(yes, others EXIST but Alustriel's kingdom and Waterdeep are exactly built around the Chosen and thus NOT able to sustain much intrigue)
But this isn't a hero topic I think. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 19:40:44
|
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The last thing I want is more "change the world" characters... I got enough of that when I was reading comic books. I like seeing people have an impact, but I prefer the smaller-scale stories. You can only have so many villains of the week or imminent global disasters before it gets boring and/or wildly implausible.
Except comic books never change anything Wooley. They exist in a never changing status quo that is the problem. The point of heroes is that they leave a lasting impact on society. In the case of Superman, the point shouldn't be that he stops Lex Luthor week after week, the point should be he changes Africa to a green and fertile delta or advances technology 5 years or something else that changes society.
My point is that once you've seen a few of these huge, save everything plots, it becomes old hat. Sure, saving the world is a grand goal, but it becomes implausible after a while that the world would need saving every other day, or that the same people are constantly the ones to do it.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Two people conquering a nation? One person destroying an entire kingdom? Thanks, but I don't want Rambo in my Realms.
As opposed to.....
What do heroes DO then Wooley?
Heroes do heroic deeds. But not all heroic deeds have to be these grand sweeping plots. Just because a hero doesn't save the world, it doesn't make them any less heroic...
Alias starts off just trying to find out who she is, and what's up with the tattoos on her arm. Arilyn tries to find an assassin. Does that make them any less heroic? Arilyn stopping the Harper Assassin likely saved the lives of many Harpers -- to those that love those Harpers, Arilyn did save the world. She saved their world. Is that to be discounted because it wasn't everyone's world?
Heck, even Drizzt started out simply trying to help his chosen corner of the Realms. He saved a small corner of the world for a great many folks -- is that worth nothing, because it's not big enough?
The Realms has thousands of stories waiting to be told. Small stories are just as important as large stories. Small stories help a setting be dynamic just as much as big stories do. And why? Because the setting is more than just the major players. These guys don't exist in a vacuum, they exist in a larger tapestry of countless interwoven lives and stories. The big guys may dominate more of the tapestry, but the tapestry does not exist without all the lesser threads, and without them being interwoven into a grander whole.
The Realms were around long before Drizzt and Elminster. The Realms will be around long after Drizzt and Elminster. In the meantime, I'm happy to read about any new characters. Sure, I want to see some of the old ones again, but at some point, all of our now-old characters were new. Old or new, grand plots or small, it is all part of the Realms we love. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 19:43:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
(yes, others EXIST but Alustriel's kingdom and Waterdeep are exactly built around the Chosen and thus NOT able to sustain much intrigue)
Cities that predate the coming of Chosen to their streets were built around Chosen? That's an interesting one... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 19:44:24
|
Well I'm content that Elminster will live forever.
But what I'm saying Wooley isn't that they need to save the world but that need to CHANGE their world. Drizzt's saving Icewind Dale is a good example of a GOOD plot honestly. Perhaps as insignificant effect as now there being six towns instead of ten towns but perhaps writing in the end of the book that the events lead to the creation of the Silver Marches at the end.
Then the heroes have left a lasting accomplishment. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
|
Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 19:46:01
|
quote:
Cities that predate the coming of Chosen to their streets were built around Chosen? That's an interesting one...
Fictional history doesn't exactly help in a metatextual argument Herr Wooley.
My point is Khelben and the Lords of Waterdeep prevent much intrigue by their very nature and Alustriel's court is fantastically devoted to her.
|
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
|
Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 20:20:47
|
For me, the Realms issues can be summarized in a number of ways...
1. "The Half-Elf Ranger named X whose also a Sorcerer Syndrome" or Paint by the Numbers Heroes
This is actually fairly rare in Forgotten Realms but when it pops up, it bugs the hell out of me. Basically, its when a lead 'hero' in a novel can be summarized by his name, class, alignment, and race. MAYBBBE he has a slight addition to himself like he's a sorcerer (the basic gist comes from the character in the Return of the Archwizards). We can complain about Shandril, Arilyn, Elminster, the Seven, and Drizzt all we like but at heart the characters were MEMORABLE because they were unique figures inside the Realms. Arilyn was the most normal of the lot and even she had vast reprocussions socially for her fellow elves by being a Princess as well as wielding her titular Moonblade.
Every hero needs something that makes him unique and a cut above the other characters. In the Realms its not enough you're a Bladesinger Orc or whatever they tack on, you need to be somewhat larger than life.
If your concept is solid enough you don't even need to change that much. James Bond is such a dashing figure that people can go to his movies endlessly with only the occasional divergence to the formula and return home satisfied.
2. Lack of Impact
I mentioned this earlier and I want to clarify by impact, I don't feel that we have to have Dragonlance style "Events" where it seems that every couple of years game time there's this earth shattering war that changes everyone's life forever and leaves no corner of the game world untouched. In Forgotten Realms they might learn a bit from that but I'm rather glad that the War of Ten Towns stays in Ten Towns if you catch my drift.
However, I do like the feel that Forgotten Realms is a living world and some of the best books are those that do change it. The Avatar books certainly changed things (for better or worse) and Prince of Lies was partially as interesting as it was because of the utter decimation of Zhentil Keep.
For my part, I want events referenced from other novels when appropriate and protagionist legendary in the world because they leave an undeniable mark.
3. Discontinued Heroes
This was mentioned before and it still bugs me. I didn't much care for Shandril's death at the end of the Trilogy honestly and felt it was a waste of a good character. However, even worse is when certain heroes after saving the region once or leaving a massive impact then drop off the face of the universe. Heroes once they've done something grand should at the very least become an operatic part of the setting.
I'm still annoyed Finder's religion isn't growing exponetially.
4, Lack of Vanquishing Evil
This is related to 2 but I'm going to seperate them to some extent. Basically, it seems that we very rarely have the heroes deliver decisive blows against evil. The Simbul kills a few dozen Red Wizards in every book she appears in and they're often used as spell fodder in whatever books they show up in. Yet, we never have the implication that the Wizards are on the verge of collapse or have suffered egreviously for their occasionally huge losses. Ditto the Zhents. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 20:22:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Cities that predate the coming of Chosen to their streets were built around Chosen? That's an interesting one...
Fictional history doesn't exactly help in a metatextual argument Herr Wooley.
My point is Khelben and the Lords of Waterdeep prevent much intrigue by their very nature and Alustriel's court is fantastically devoted to her.
The Lords of Waterdeep are a unique political structure. Having a Chosen among their ranks has nothing to do with that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 20:52:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
For me, the Realms issues can be summarized in a number of ways...
1. "The Half-Elf Ranger named X whose also a Sorcerer Syndrome" or Paint by the Numbers Heroes
Whose what?
quote:
We can complain about Shandril, Arilyn, Elminster, the Seven, and Drizzt all we like but at heart the characters were MEMORABLE because they were unique figures inside the Realms.
Actually, I find most of the Seven Sisters indistinguiable from each other in many way, but okay.
quote:
Every hero needs something that makes him unique and a cut above the other characters. In the Realms its not enough you're a Bladesinger Orc or whatever they tack on, you need to be somewhat larger than life.
Define larger than life.
quote:
If your concept is solid enough you don't even need to change that much. James Bond is such a dashing figure that people can go to his movies endlessly with only the occasional divergence to the formula and return home satisfied.
You would encourage formulaic writing?
2. Lack of Impact
quote:
However, I do like the feel that Forgotten Realms is a living world and some of the best books are those that do change it. The Avatar books certainly changed things (for better or worse) and Prince of Lies was partially as interesting as it was because of the utter decimation of Zhentil Keep.
Funny, since I've heard it expressed by many posters that the Avatar trilogy was, to put it gently, godawful. I just don't see how impact-full events are automatically superior to ones that affect no more than a few people's personal lives. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Heroes in Novels
Topic Locked
