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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
 Posted - 06 May 2006 : 00:58:01
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The infinite wisdom of Wooley has shown that our thread of heroes has run its course and its time to instead talk about other things, rethinking my topic though, I am thinking about the differences between "heroes" in the various settings.
For me, Forgotten Realms is different from say....Dragonlance in that FR is the place where the Big Dogs play. The only "FR" like character in the setting of DL is Raistlin Majere whom at least dreams bigger than his station.
The majority of Dragonlance like characters are barkeeps, petty thieves, blacksmiths, and other characters that I honestly have very little interest in reading about.
It's why statements that Forgotten Realms should have more 'normal' characters perplexes me. Forgotten Realms for me is about the children of gods, the Chosen Ones, and the awesome epic and sweeping heroes of the lands.
The guys who CHANGE things and slay armies.
What about you?
There's a reason my favorite characters are Finder (who became a god), El (obvious), Shandril (The Buffy of the Realms), and the various monarch heroes (Moonshaes, Cormyr).
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 06 May 2006 00:59:54
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2006 : 01:09:17
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| Haven't we had this discussion a couple of times before? You like the big guys, and aren't interested in the smaller guys. Most of us prefer the characters of smaller stature... I'm failing to see how this discussion is going to be any different. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2006 : 02:05:01
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I'll give you this Charles, I really appreciate someone trying to have an analytical, philosophical discussion of what they want and don't want in the novels they read, and the meta analysis can be interesting. That having been said, I do think we pretty much went down this road before.
For my two steel pence though, I'll chime in with these thoughts. One of the reasons that we got Shandril as one of the first Realms heroes was that she was very weak without her spellfire, and she was a common barmaid dreaming of adventure.
And for what its worth, DragonLance has started going down the road that the Knights books out right now deal with a Knight of Solomnia that is going to become the King of Solomnia, the minotaur books that were just out have to do with the Emperor and his family, the elf books are about the Speaker of the Stars leading all of the elves that lost their homeland, and the Dark Disciple books are about a woman that has casual conversations with the god of thed dead, while she is opposed by someone that chit chats with the Goddess of the Sea and the god of Monks . . . I used to love DragonLance, but is so "forced epic" now that I have pretty well sworn off it.
I'm not saying I don't want to hear about the powerful, but I have to tell you . . . as much as I liked them, the gods were getting a bit to familiar by the end of Crucible for them to feel like gods. I don't want every book to be about Elminster, but I do want some, and I'm eagarly waiting for Blackstaff. At the same time, I can't wait to read about the Knights of Myth Drannor just starting out. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2006 : 02:33:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
The only "FR" like character in the setting of DL is Raistlin Majere whom at least dreams bigger than his station.
Charles, you're projecting the characters you like to read about as those characteristic of the setting. Yes, the ability to dream and imagine grand things is an inherent characteristic of Realms protagonists. Being mighty certainly is not. The Chosen of Mystra are neither typical nor very suitable Realms protagonists: they were only used so because TSR demanded it. Shandril is essentially an inexperienced innocent, her spellfire, as Ed has said, merely a plot device to allow the reader to see large parts of the Realms. He's also talked about his general preference for lower-level characters, such as the Knights of Myth Drannor, not sweeping army-slaying heroes, which are suited to high-fantasy worlds, not sword-and-sorcery ones. It's you who likes those things, not the Realms.
KnightErrantJR, re a comment you made in the other thread... wizards do use healing magic in the Realms, it's merely been concealed because of the D&D convention. |
Edited by - Faraer on 06 May 2006 02:34:23 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2006 : 02:56:09
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Well I understand your points Wooley Rupert and I can understand further how its your job to avoid doubling over stuff since that way lies fire.
However, I think that there's still plenty more to discuss in this topic before its completely exhausted. You've correctly pointed out that I happen to like big epic and sweeping adventures while others tend to like smaller heroics.
(I did find Mace Hammerhands' comment "Then why don't you read Dragonlance?" amusing. It's like ---- The Plots are usually fine but if I hear one more occasion of their silly inn and their life there I'll positively scream!)
Stuff I would like to discuss I don't think we've got too much down on is...
Things possible to discuss in this storyline
1. Whether there's room in Forgotten Realms for big plots as well as little plots
2. Whether Ed's vision of the world is one where the more powerful fade into the background or is one for all levels.
3. Whether Epic Plots fit the Realms or its more designed for localized conflict.
4. Whether heroes of the Realms should have "normal" lives or be more grandiose. (For an odd example, Arilyn Moonblade has no 'normal' life because she's a Harper 24-7)
5. What seperates "Epic Heroes" (to coin terminology) from "Average Joe" heroes and what are examples of both for the realms.
Things like that |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2006 : 03:14:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
The only "FR" like character in the setting of DL is Raistlin Majere whom at least dreams bigger than his station.
Charles, you're projecting the characters you like to read about as those characteristic of the setting. Yes, the ability to dream and imagine grand things is an inherent characteristic of Realms protagonists. Being mighty certainly is not. The Chosen of Mystra are neither typical nor very suitable Realms protagonists: they were only used so because TSR demanded it.
Shandril is essentially an inexperienced innocent, her spellfire, as Ed has said, merely a plot device to allow the reader to see large parts of the Realms. He's also talked about his general preference for lower-level characters, such as the Knights of Myth Drannor, not sweeping army-slaying heroes, which are suited to high-fantasy worlds, not sword-and-sorcery ones. It's you who likes those things, not the Realms.
Well I'm hardly going to argue with Ed Greenwood about his preferences. Ed is certainly a better fantasy author than I am (30 years of the Realms don't lie), more prolific, more successful than I'll ever be, and plenty of other wonderful adjectives. However, I will point out that he does an excellent job with Elminster despite his preferences.
I've never really warmed to any of the Knights of Myth Drannor to be perfectly honest because I haven't been able to cross that boundary of identification. This may perhaps change with their upcoming book but they've always been something of Elminster's henchmen to me to be frank and sort of a distinctly 'Shadowdale' thing.
On a related note to thing to discuss, Can the Realms ever actually be Sword and Sorcery rather than High Fantasy? The restrictures at Wizards of the Coast are probably as bad as they've always been and Ed has always clearly wanted to write a more sensual Toril than he's ever been allowed to write (Caladnei/Allusair subtext plus their harems aside in Elminster's Daughter).
Sword and Sorcery depends on a very strong element of danger and its the rare hero who dies horribly. The last senseless and violent death I can really remember is Diedre honestly and the tragic circumstance of her death still sticks with me. The Sorcery element of the Realms is so much stronger that while the Seven and others can be tortured, they aren't permanently effected by this Torture. We also already know what happened to Wulfgar in his Change at Point A, Death at Point B, Recovery at point C, and his final return to Point A again.
If you can't have that element of danger and visual identication (and its difficult to given the Realms are sooooooo WEIRD to be honest) then it depends on the nature of the plot itself to make you care about the circumstances involved.
I welcome people citing good examples of Realms books that make use of making you care about the plight of the characters and danger of course as a counterexample for me if you like. There's a huge lack of people who were normal enough to care about and in danger when they entered 'adventuring' though. Shandril was sadly one of the few I think. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2006 : 03:18:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
1. Whether there's room in Forgotten Realms for big plots as well as little plots
I'd honestly say no. White Wolf's games run into this problem due to metaplots; although the community based nature of their games helps contain it to some degree, you often end up with situations where the only possible types of games are "epic about the main event" or "smaller about trying to save our turf in the middle of all of this". It matches the themes of their games quite well, but not the themes of the Realms at all. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2006 : 04:07:36
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Forgotten Realms has certainly had a lot of the "Big events" so its a question for the future I think Moderator Type-Person rather than whether it fits the past (which had HUGE metaplots) but I'm hardly going to argue with you.
OTOH we've 'only' had the Time of Troubles, The Horde, and the Dragon Uprising. Things like Cormyr's Scouring were more localized.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2006 : 04:11:23
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Charles, why don't you tell us why you so dislike, and have trouble 'identifying with', extending your compassion to, non-super characters? By which you don't seem to mean merely non-heroic characters, since Krynn's barkeeps and thieves have heroic qualities and become recognized as heroes.
Sword and sorcery doesn't require frequently dying protagonists. Its heroes -- Conan, Solomon Kane, Fafhrd and the Mouser, Imaro, Kane, etc. -- almost always survive by their blades, luck and wits. Which WotC restrictions do you feel work against sword and sorcery? What makes you think the Seven aren't permanently affected by being tortured? |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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BobROE
Learned Scribe
Canada
106 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2006 : 04:57:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Things possible to discuss in this storyline
1. Whether there's room in Forgotten Realms for big plots as well as little plots
3. Whether Epic Plots fit the Realms or its more designed for localized conflict.
The answer to both of the above depends on if you're talking about the published realms (and then if you're talking about novels or game products) or your home game.
Obviously in your home game you can do whatever you want to it doesn't really matter one way or the other.
In the published realms though you can't have grand scale events because the novels and game products never sink up properly. Either things happen in the novel that are then not really explained in game product (see the events of the Hunter's Blade Trilogy) or the game product spoils the novel (see Powers of Faerun with regards to Baker's elf trilogy [name escapes]). Because of this small scale events are far easier to fit into the realms because in the entirety of the world the cult of the dragon losing a cell in some town isn't really that important (for example).
Now you can have epic plots that take place that don't effect the populus as a whole and as such can be written about without issue. (think LotR if you only focus on Sam and Frodo's Journey, epic in scope and purpose but doesn't involve grand armies or the destruction of civilizations. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2006 : 05:32:28
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For this I think we mean novels and game products.
Here's my response to the above also.
1. Charles, why don't you tell us why you so dislike, and have trouble 'identifying with', extending your compassion to, non-super characters?
I'll clarify my position a bit as to why I'm not able to "enjoy" simply the non-super characters as much as I enjoy the more elite versons in Forgotten Realms. Part of this is the nature of the Realms. The Realms are an extraordinarily magical place that I've never gotten the impression 'just' has blacksmiths, farmers, and the like. It's a place more like a fairy tale where the rules of reality aren't really very cut and dry.
It's not like Middle Earth or Dragonlance where there's a few select races of orcs and so on, the appearence of one is cause for terror but not irrationality. In the world of Abber-Toril there's literally hundreds of races and all sorts of whacky beasts so that you really have a very jaded populous whom have to accept their world is kind of mythic and mysterious off hand.
To me, that means that all attempts to portray the average Realmsian commoner as "ordinary" is an exercise in utter failure and any attempt to make such a portrayal immediately puts me off the characters. Tolkien made the heroes of the Lord of the Rings a wealthy land owner, his gardener, and threw in some local boys for good measure but its such a tired cliche now that I happen to like it when authors return to 'exceptional' characters like the Kings of Arthurian lore or the Odyssey.
Narm and Rinda are only 'non-super characters' (Shandril I count amongst them) I could ever stand because both were actually people who sucked and were caught up in events beyond their control. They actually DID suck at being heroes and the drama was born from that. Malik is sort of the exception that proves the rule as well. He's an ordinary merchant whose the Chosen of Cyric.
2. By which you don't seem to mean merely non-heroic characters, since Krynn's barkeeps and thieves have heroic qualities and become recognized as heroes.
My definition is pretty encompassing. I merely want something that actively 'sets apart' these characters from the rest of the people of the Realms and in a big way other than their adventurers. The only thing I'm actively against is trying to bring 'low' the characters as if that will make them identify with me more...and that's not the case by the Realms definition.
The idea behind Dragonlance and Solace is that the Heroes of the Lance (the iconic Dragonlance heroes) are relatively normal individuals except for the war that they go off to. I'd argue this isn't terribly true under examination but we'll pretend it's close enough for study.
In FR, the bar is much higher because of the bizarrity that inhabits their lives. It's repeatedly stated that things like Dragon waves and Tugian Hordes have happened in the immediate lives of many individuals and no one bats an eyelash when Drizzt has to face down Alkar Kessel's evil horde. In such a world of overthetop fantasy you need more from the heroes to stand out.
Attempts to make heroes "normal" only makes them oddballs by comparison to other commoners in the land really I think. Arilyn Moonblade may be "just" a harper but she's also a Princess, An assassin, and a wielder of a great magical artifact.
3. Sword and sorcery doesn't require frequently dying protagonists. Its heroes -- Conan, Solomon Kane, Fafhrd and the Mouser, Imaro, Kane, etc. -- almost always survive by their blades, luck and wits.
We'll use Conan because I'm most familiar with Howard's works out of there. Part of the amusing appeal of Conan is that he's possibly the strongest man in Hyborea yet this might as well make him the strongest insect. We have a good idea of where Conan stacks against the giants in the Frost Giant's Daughter and how overpowered he is when faced with the various nightmarish creatures he faces. He also reacts with...well not fear per say but shock and unease whenever they show up (something hard to do in FR I've mentioned).
There's a strong sense of danger to his companions as well with the writing bringing up frequently that Conan is capable of sleeping on snow and is extremely awesome....but he faces awesome threats as well. Death comes al about them and victories are hard earned.
It's not 'death' I want because Shandril's death I'm still quite upset about. Also, she was FUN despite her invulnerability seeming. It's more the sense of danger and consequence to their actions. Shandril tragically lost her child to her Crown of Fire if you recall.
4. Which WotC restrictions do you feel work against sword and sorcery? What makes you think the Seven aren't permanently affected by being tortured?
I think Ed has more or less established they've been marketing to twelve year olds at that time (which there's nothing necessarily wrong with but it misses the market's majority I believe). The sexuality restrictions haven't been terribly problematic as Ed's world has pretty much established the promiscuity and harem liek atmosphere of many parts of the Realms like Cormyr's royal court and waterdeep.
However, the Violence done in the Realms is frequently done in an almost GI Joe cartoon like fashion where we never really dwell on "This is the after effect." Cormyr's Scouring and the destruction of Tilverton is one of the few occasions where we have a lasting consequence for the result. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2006 : 06:05:08
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After some moderator discussion, I've decided to close this scroll. We're really not covering anything new, here, we're just going over the same points that have been discussed to death in two previous scrolls.
I and the other moderators are all for reasonable discussions about the Realms -- after all, it's why we're all here. However, seeing the same opinions and the same discussions over and over again isn't something that accomplishes anything.
We all have our preferences, our likes, and our dislikes about the Realms. Rather than continue to cover the same ground, I invite everyone to discuss some other aspects of this grand setting. Let's cover these other topics of discussion, and let this one die. |
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The nature of heroism in Forgotten Realms
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