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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yes, there is plenty of reason for people to trust Khelben, and to believe that he's working towards a good end. But that's mostly his past actions, prior to the Schism. His actions that caused the Schism, and the actions since, easily look like the actions of a traitor -- especially if that's what you want to see, or if you've no reason to believe otherwise.

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Aye... this is a very important point when considering the actions of Khelben with regard to the formation of the Moonstars. It tells us a great deal about his internal motivations and how, on the whole, he sees the Realms.

I'd never say that Khelben is an extremely arrogant individual, but his choices regarding the Scepter and the creation of the Moonstars tells us that he may be following a path that only he can interpret -- or a pre-defined plan of sorts, and that he sees his actions as wholly necessary. For him, at least... and maybe those closest to him, Laeral for example, the end WILL justify the means he's undertaken to get to where ever the purpose of the Moonstars lead.

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Originally posted by The Sage

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yes, there is plenty of reason for people to trust Khelben, and to believe that he's working towards a good end. But that's mostly his past actions, prior to the Schism. His actions that caused the Schism, and the actions since, easily look like the actions of a traitor -- especially if that's what you want to see, or if you've no reason to believe otherwise.

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Aye... this is a very important point when considering the actions of Khelben with regard to the formation of the Moonstars. It tells us a great deal about his internal motivations and how, on the whole, he sees the Realms.

I'd never say that Khelben is an extremely arrogant individual,

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Funny--I would.

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but his choices regarding the Scepter and the creation of the Moonstars tells us that he may be following a path that only he can interpret -- or a pre-defined plan of sorts, and that he sees his actions as wholly necessary. For him, at least... and maybe those closest to him, Laeral for example, the end WILL justify the means he's undertaken to get to where ever the purpose of the Moonstars lead.

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And The Sage wins the poorly-stuffed Otyugh doll!

Remember that this is a guy who's personally very committed to the Harpers and its cause--his parents were among the Harpers in Twilight and it's partially a need to see their works continue. He's also helped refound the order at least twice. The fact that he seems to be working at odds with the Harpers should

A) tell you something about how he feels about the current Harper leadership;
B) tell you that he may be manipulating them into reacting in particular ways to get them into positions they might not normally take (even without realizing that Khelben's manipulating them); and
C) reveal that a 910-year-old wizard has many irons in the fire at once and if he stopped to explain himself, it might upset 8 other plans and intrigues he has going at once.

And despite all that above, it doesn't tell you anything more about what's to come in BLACKSTAFF, as the Harper Schism doesn't play a role in the story, save as background detail of a minor sort.

Steven
who has to better learn how to keep his mouth shut like Eddie...

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Originally posted by Rowan

Yes, Khelben is a powerful archmage and Mystra's Chosen, so it's obvious he can vaguely see into the future and is attempting to manipulate events so the Realms are prepared for whatever he sees, which must be dire indeed for him to make a deal with the Zhentarim.

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It's not as much seeing into the future as it is inferring something from what he's read. From page 26 of Cloak & Dagger:

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Few realized that he’s been obsessed with some great threats since the Year of the Laughing Swan (816 DR). While under an assumed name and in his seventh year as a cloistered monk at Candlekeep, Khelben discovered some dire threat within Alaundo's Prophecies and began planning contingencies to thwart it. (Laeral sometimes wonders if he did not have some prophetic flashes himself, for she has read the Prophecies as well, and does not see what Khelben says he saw.) Among the contingencies are his and Elminster’s constant shepherding of the Harpers as a group to combat the threat, but over time, this group slipped out of Khelhen’s control, and he had yet to build the group he felt he needed.

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And as much as I enjoy discussing Khelben and the Moonstars, this is Ed's scroll. Perhaps we should take this to a new scroll?

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yes, there is plenty of reason for people to trust Khelben, and to believe that he's working towards a good end. But that's mostly his past actions, prior to the Schism.

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Id consider Blakcstaff to be the least trust worthy of Mystras chosen and rember Khelbans LN so he doesnt strive for the common "Good". Good when it comes to the Blackstaff is defined as "Those causes I deem to be right and correct" he doesnt strive for the common good. Infact id probably argue that Khelbans Alignment should have shifted to TN after his deal with Fzoul and his dealing with the Vampire he let into the Moonstars.

Im willing to bet that Lord Piergion isnt aware of what Blacstaffs been up to in the last decade or so, Id say it would be highly likely that Piergion would boot Khelban out of Waterdeep if he ever found out that Blackstaff had made a deal with Fzoul the chosen of Bane (The Chosen of Piergions deities sworn enemy) and that he had on going dealings with a CE Vampire.

Sure Piergion might be abit more layed back that your typical Paladin but Im there are limits even for a tolerant paladin!

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I don't see his dealings with vampires to be a mark of an alignment shift... One of the vampires was a former Harper, remember.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I don't see his dealings with vampires to be a mark of an alignment shift... One of the vampires was a former Harper, remember. The other one may be evil, but even an evil being can still do good -- or be used for good ends.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I don't see his dealings with vampires to be a mark of an alignment shift... One of the vampires was a former Harper, remember. The other one may be evil, but even an evil being can still do good -- or be used for good ends.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Khelben does have standards... He's always worked for the common good -- despite his neutral alignment.

We don't know enough about the vampires to really make a good judgement, there. Sure, lawyers -- er, vampires () live off the blood of the living. But we don't know exactly whose blood these two are living off of. Nor do we know what happens to the victims, afterwards. It could be that they only prey on and take out criminals or enemies of the Harpers/Moonstars. Or they could both be pulling a Jander and only taking what they need to live, and leaving the victims alive... Heck, for all we know, one could be drinking from the humans produced by a deepspawn he keeps in the basement!

Or maybe they are killing random people, and Khelben is overlooking this, for the greater good. We don't know exactly what he's working for here, but we know it is something big. He's been preparing for it for 500 years! He was a part of the Sword Heralds and a major good organization, the Harpers, because of this darkness that he's working against.

Khelben has always been portrayed as a manipulator and one who is willing to do dark deeds to see good triumph. It could just be that what it is he's working against is far more important than worrying about where 2 vampires are eating, or what his (one-time!) deal with Fzoul could lead to. The Blackstaff is playing a very deep game here, and it's one he's been playing for centuries. He's willing to accept some shades of grey now to make sure the light is shining later.

Dealing with bad guys doesn't reflect negatively on someone, if they do it for the right reasons. Khelben has dealt with Fzoul and Halaster, yes. But did he do it for himself, to benefit #1 and no one else? Nope, it's been towards a greater good. We don't look down on cops for dealing with criminal informants, do we? Sometimes light is best served by those who can walk in darkness.

Khelben helped found a major organization for good. Khelben has spent much time working to benefit the city he lives in -- Waterdeep now, and Myth Drannor in the past. He was a major force in defending the city of Myth Drannor from the Army of Darkness, where he -- for the second time! -- nearly died trying to defend others.

Neutral or not, Khelben is and always has been a major force for good in the Realms. He's allowing minor evil to flourish now so that good will triumph later. That doesn't strike me as true neutral. I'm not sure that LN is the right fit for him, but I know that TN isn't.

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Originally posted by The Sage

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I don't see his dealings with vampires to be a mark of an alignment shift... One of the vampires was a former Harper, remember.

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Aye.

Manshaka. Though he's a LE vampire (and as Wooly said, a former deepcover Harper agent before he died by the bite from a vampire) it should be noted that since rising as a vampire, he has recommitted himself to Khelben and continues to serve his goals through the Moonstars.

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Originally posted by Steven Schend
And yes, he's not the only deep-cover Harper agent who worked directly for Khelben over the long years. There's one who gets a brief scene in BLACKSTAFF, along with her lover, and they've both long been considered villains in the game world. I see them as victims of circumstance, magic, and moral weakness who're striving toward the light in their own ways. Doesn't excuse what they've done, but knowing that she's worked with Khelben for more than 90 years despite the past 30 years or so as a rogue agent may change how you look at the lovely [NDA Police finally break down the door to Steven's office and drag him off in leather straps and straight-jacket....]

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Originally posted by Steven SchendI can never remember the vampire's first name, but by Calishite nomenclature, Manshaka is simply the place he calls home.

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And yes, he's not the only deep-cover Harper agent who worked directly for Khelben over the long years.

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Originally posted by Kentinal

The end justifies the means?

Granting alignment rules hold many problems, as do rules concerning getting evil subtype by becoming undead. There remains the general discussion of aiding an Evil force for now to achieve a greater good later. Does the how matter and is the good that great?

There are historical examples in many points in history that appear to indicate that the means to the end was not in fact a greater good, though the winners claimed such was fact.

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Originally posted by Dargoth

As I said the "Common Good" for people with neutral (on the good vs evil axis) alignments is defined by that person they are by no means "moral"

Up until recently it could be argued that Blackstaff has fought for The "good" of Waterdeep" Khelban was after all a Lord of Waterdeep and LN person in that position would to a degree define there actions by how they will effect those they are responsiable for.

However Blackstaff is no longer a Lord of Waterdeep so he no longer has to consider whats best for the city after all hes no longer responsable it.

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Originally posted by Dargoth

So when you say Khelban works for the "Common good" how are you defining good?

"Dealing with bad guys doesn't reflect negatively on someone, if they do it for the right reasons."

Perhaps you havent heard of a man named Neville Chamberlin?

*chuckle*

<Has mental image of Khelbhan standing outside Blackstaff tower waving a piece of paper in his hand yelling out to waterdeeps masses "I hold in my hand this document signed by Herr Fzoul declaring that for the next 30 years the Zhentarim will not expand in the Western Heartland! We shall have Peace in our Time!">

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Originally posted by Dargoth

But then again most police informants arent going to rip out the throats of incocent members of the public and drink their blood or raise an army of Vampire spawn.......

"He's allowing minor evil to flourish now so that good will triumph later."

You know the old saying "The Road to the Barrens of Doom and Despair is paved with "good" Intentions"

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Originally posted by Steven Schend

Y'all have to bear in mind one simple thing--Khelben may have an alignment by D&D rules, but it's not what I keep in mind when writing him. He's Khelben, and he's a whole complicated ball of issues and motivations, not just two little letters to define his morality and ethics. Yes, he's lawful, and yes, he's more middle-of-the-road than Elminster, but don't doubt that he's a good man with a hard row to hoe.

The assumption that Khelben's straying from his moral center because he works with "evil beings" is not quite right. His morals and ethics are what drive him to work with them--he's not afraid, like Piergeiron or even Malchor Harpell, to get his hands dirty and to play both sides against each other to achieve his goals. And no, that's not betraying his lawful nature either--he's just not playing with mortal laws, being 900 years old (and thus older than most laws in place currently) and hardwired to a goddess (who sets her and his moral compass in many ways).

That said, my frustration with the alignment system comes down to this: Evil (or good, for that matter) is many, many things that can't be quantified but it makes many biases when oversimplified (like in D&D). Evil, to some, is the cheap bastard who swipes some tips off the table; to others, he's someone who runs from a fight rather than help defend his friends. I could go on and on, but here's my benchmark: If you think of yourself first and foremost over the the welfare of others, that's the hallmark of evil ("me first in all things"). Thus, LE could simply mean someone is law-abiding or at least in possession of a code of ethics, but he's out for himself first and foremost.

I've got an entirely different take on some characters than most because I refuse to take the alignments as holy gospel and let them limit me in seeing a whole character. Sure, I understand what the system is there for, and I can work with it and around it, but it gets frustrating when discussing characters with people and they lock onto alignments only. It's a limitation of the game system, and it shouldn't prevent us from telling the best stories we can.

Boy, this is a long way around the bend just to say the vampires with whom Khelben works in the Silverstars are not the moustache-twirling, baby-eating, serial-killing monsters one might think. They're both actually quite cultured, polite, erudite, and sane people who have a different dietary need and an aversion to sunlight. No, they're not nice people by a long stretch, but you can work with them. (Just like so many of us go to work each day in Cubeland and put up with those we'd rather not but can for the sake of a cause or paycheck.).

Steven the Longwinded Insomniac

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Originally posted by Steven Schend

[NDA Police finally break down the door to Steven's office and drag him off in leather straps and straight-jacket....]

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Khelben is 900 years old. He's a master manipulator and a cunning schemer. He's likely already got plans in place so that if Fzoul betrays him, it still winds up serving Khelben's goals.

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Originally posted by KnightErrantJR

You know, its funny, now that you mention that, it gets me to thinking, has Khelbun ever done a "Suicide Squad" type manipulation, i.e. taken groups of wanted individuals that are enemmies of the Lords Alliance, let them know that they are in SERIOUS trouble if they don't work for Khelbun, and then set them loose in regions outside of the typical perview of those who would imprision, punish, or eliminate them, perhaps using them for missions in the Lands of Intruigue or Sembia, for example.

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