| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 00:48:26
From Ed's 2006 scroll --
First Wooly -
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Rowan
Thanks for the info regarding the prestige class. But, I find it prudent to comment. The whole idea of the Harper Schism seems a bit contrived to me.
Having worked with Khelben for so long and knowing who and what he is, wouldn't Harper leadership be a lot more lenient and ask him to explain his actions, knowing that he would never do anything to endanger the organization or its members?
It's especially strange that Bran Skorlsun would be against him. Isn't that just a little bit ungrateful, considering Khelben had a major hand in saving his daughter? Surely he and others would have more faith in Khelben than that...
Bran and Khelben haven't gotten along with each other for many, many years... As the book says, Bran saw evidence of treason, and because of his dislike of Khelben, didn't bother to look any further.
And when the Harper tribunal asked Khelben about what he had done -- which was, remember, giving a powerful artifact to the leader of group that's the Harpers' biggest enemy -- he refused to explain himself, and resigned. Then he sealed Blackstaff Tower against the Harpers...
Yes, there is plenty of reason for people to trust Khelben, and to believe that he's working towards a good end. But that's mostly his past actions, prior to the Schism. His actions that caused the Schism, and the actions since, easily look like the actions of a traitor -- especially if that's what you want to see, or if you've no reason to believe otherwise.
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 10 May 2006 : 01:49:36
quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
Wooly, Sage, you have no idea how disturbing it is to go from a conversation about Mr. Morden to finding the very first thread you open full of Vorlons. 
The Mr. Morden conversation... That wasn't the one started on the CBT forums was it?
And you're welcome Wandering_Mage. |
| Wandering_mage |
Posted - 10 May 2006 : 01:26:03
Thanks Sage! I actually knew what a Vorlon was without knowing the name of it. Silly me. |
| BlackAce |
Posted - 09 May 2006 : 17:38:07
Wooly, Sage, you have no idea how disturbing it is to go from a conversation about Mr. Morden to finding the very first thread you open full of Vorlons. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 09 May 2006 : 15:54:58
quote:
Originally posted by Wandering_mage
Might I ask an incredibly dumb question? What is a Vorlon?
See here:- Vorlons.
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| At your Behest |
Posted - 09 May 2006 : 15:41:28
They ( the Vorlons) are an incredibly mysterious, powerful and old (and cool ) race in the science fiction series "(Spacecenter) Babylon 5".
P.S. Babylon 5 rocks  ... |
| Wandering_mage |
Posted - 09 May 2006 : 15:28:48
Might I ask an incredibly dumb question? What is a Vorlon? |
| Kajehase |
Posted - 09 May 2006 : 04:57:03
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I just had a thought about Khelben... With his foresight, 17 angles to every issue, and years of skill at manipulating people... I think he would be one of the few humans able to understand a Vorlon.
*weird noises* Ye-es. *more weird noises* |
| The Sage |
Posted - 09 May 2006 : 03:34:04
Or at least possess both the physical and mental resolve to serve as a physical vessel for an aspect of a Vorlon  .
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 May 2006 : 03:23:22
I just had a thought about Khelben... With his foresight, 17 angles to every issue, and years of skill at manipulating people... I think he would be one of the few humans able to understand a Vorlon. |
| Wandering_mage |
Posted - 09 May 2006 : 02:57:24
No! Say not what you have gleened from these posts. I beg of thee. I am so hyped about the mystery around Khelben about to reveal some of itself in Blackstaff that I have an extra spring in my step of late. I even get a +1 modifier to my jump skill from it.  I mean gosh. I can't wait for Blackstaff to come out!!!!!! Let the surprise remain. Ahhhhh, the heck with it. The mystery will never be totally revealed anyways so say what ye will. |
| Swordsage |
Posted - 09 May 2006 : 01:05:06
quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
I kinda whish I hadn't because based on earlier comments, I think I've unravelled some of the plot of Blackstaff!
So what do you think is going to happen in the novel?
The Swordsage
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| BlackAce |
Posted - 09 May 2006 : 00:29:56
I kinda whish I hadn't because based on earlier comments, I think I've unravelled some of the plot of Blackstaff! |
| Wandering_mage |
Posted - 07 May 2006 : 22:25:03
This is probably the most enjoyably informative thread I have ever read. I am dying to read Blackstaff now. A toast to Khelben for breaking the whole good guy/bad guy stereotype. Even though I still think of him as mostly good. |
| Conlon |
Posted - 16 Jan 2006 : 10:19:20
Many thanks. I appreciate very much the information, and appreciate even more the speed with which it was given. I'll try to dig up "Cloak and Dagger", and have just started sifting through the Sages' area on this site. Wunderbar! I've got a lot of catching up to do! |
| The Sage |
Posted - 15 Jan 2006 : 02:08:07
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Cloak and Dagger(2e) is easily the best source(practically the only one), and it's also a great book on the organizations and secret societies of the Realms(much better than the 3e Lords of Darkness).
Yup. Cloak & Dagger also details the Manshoon Wars, another great concept. It's one of the last 2E products (and thus is long out of print), and in my opinion, one of the best Realms products to date.
I see the occasional copy on eBay... Also, Paizo.com has it as a pdf you can download for $4.
In addition, I would suggest those with an interest in the Manshoon Wars make a search through Steven Schend's comments here at Candlekeep. Wooly, myself, and a number of other scribes have sometimes engaged Sage Schend with a variety of questions regarding the developments of the Manshoon Clones, the Wars, and Steven's thoughts about the entire saga in the Realmslore.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Jan 2006 : 23:45:56
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Cloak and Dagger(2e) is easily the best source(practically the only one), and it's also a great book on the organizations and secret societies of the Realms(much better than the 3e Lords of Darkness).
Yup. Cloak & Dagger also details the Manshoon Wars, another great concept. It's one of the last 2E products (and thus is long out of print), and in my opinion, one of the best Realms products to date.
I see the occasional copy on eBay... Also, Paizo.com has it as a pdf you can download for $4. |
| Arivia |
Posted - 14 Jan 2006 : 19:39:34
quote:
Originally posted by Conlon
Well Met, Learned Folk!
Only recently have I discovered Candlekeep, and here have found a wealth of colorful information to enrich my campaign. I have read many of the FR books, but am unfamiliar with the "Harper Schism" which is mentioned in this thread. I am aware that Khelben has left the Harpers, founding the Moonstars, but some of the details spoken of in this thread lead me to beleive that there is a source outlining this schism more fully. Could someone please point me in the right direction so I might become more enlightened on this subject?
Many thanks.
Conlon "The Grim"
Cloak and Dagger(2e) is easily the best source(practically the only one), and it's also a great book on the organizations and secret societies of the Realms(much better than the 3e Lords of Darkness). |
| Conlon |
Posted - 14 Jan 2006 : 19:04:23
Well Met, Learned Folk!
Only recently have I discovered Candlekeep, and here have found a wealth of colorful information to enrich my campaign. I have read many of the FR books, but am unfamiliar with the "Harper Schism" which is mentioned in this thread. I am aware that Khelben has left the Harpers, founding the Moonstars, but some of the details spoken of in this thread lead me to beleive that there is a source outlining this schism more fully. Could someone please point me in the right direction so I might become more enlightened on this subject?
Many thanks.
Conlon "The Grim" |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Jan 2006 : 16:11:47
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Neville Chamberlain? Sorry, but I don't think that Khelben would make a mistake like that. Fzoul and the god he serves -- a god that Khelben, by giving him the Scepter, helped bring back -- can be reasonably expected to keep their word. Bane and Fzoul both are lawful evil, so it's no unreasonable to assume they'll keep their word.
Actually I think it will go horriably wrong
A while ago some one Asked Ed about Storms reaction to Blackstaffs deal with Fzoul and the founding of the Moonstars
Ed response wasthat Eleminster told Storm not to worry and that the whole Moonstar buisness would blow up in Khelbans face in the end.
I'll acknowledge that it could go wrong... But, unless Elminster is prescient, he can't know for certain that it will backfire. He can be fairly certain, but just because Elminster said it, it's not a foregone conclusion. Oh, and keep in mind that El also said that both he and Khelben were acting as Azuth and Mystra had counseled them to.
El also failed to say exactly how it would blow up in his face -- so Khelben's actions may have precipitated some other adverse effects for him, something that has nothing to do with the Moonstars.
And lastly, Steven's own words, from his thread:
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
On Khelben's thought re: Fzoul betraying their agreement--"Unlike your Lord Neville Chamberlain, I have multitudinous ways to wreak my displeasure upon Lord Chembryl, should he renege on his word. Nor am I so squeamish as to stay my hand if such should happen."
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| Dargoth |
Posted - 14 Jan 2006 : 07:40:14
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[quote]Originally posted by Dargoth
Neville Chamberlain? Sorry, but I don't think that Khelben would make a mistake like that. Fzoul and the god he serves -- a god that Khelben, by giving him the Scepter, helped bring back -- can be reasonably expected to keep their word. Bane and Fzoul both are lawful evil, so it's no unreasonable to assume they'll keep their word.
Actually I think it will go horriably wrong
A while ago some one Asked Ed about Storms reaction to Blackstaffs deal with Fzoul and the founding of the Moonstars
Ed response wasthat Eleminster told Storm not to worry and that the whole Moonstar buisness would blow up in Khelbans face in the end. |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 14 Jan 2006 : 07:32:27
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
 No comment.
Which is to say... yes. Possibly quite often.
By the way, was Khelben part of Myth Drannor's N'Vaelahr, or did he get taken out of action too soon in the war to have much to do with the Shadow Soldiers?
During or before the war? No. The Nameless Chosen was busy elsewhere.
After the war? He had a few very important tasks to perform for some luminaries of the N'Vaelahr. Can't say beyond that other than to refer you to BLACKSTAFF's release in July.  |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 13 Jan 2006 : 22:26:49
Oddly enough, that's exactly what I thought about Khelbun when it comes to "friends and allies." The real scarry thing is if anyone ever manages a "Ra's al Ghul" on Khelbun and finds out what his contingencies and known weaknesses of the various important types in the Realms are . . . |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 13 Jan 2006 : 22:21:30
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Khelben reminds me a lot of the fellow in "serenity: the movie" who was being sent to assassinate the crew for trying to uncover clues to the annihilation of a planet and the formation of the reavers. In that instance, the assassin was given a grand vision that he needed to work towards "a greater good" that would have people conforming to a certain ideal of civility. The assassin himself didn't fit this ideal of civility, but he realized that he was an instrument of necessity for removing those things that prevented this ideal from coming about. Thus, in the end, he hoped that through his own repugnant acts he would make a better world that he would not qualify for. Now, I don't see Khelben being quite this bad.... but I wonder if some of the Moonstars are.
Phillip aka Sleyvas
RE: Khelben as The Operative--not quite. If you really need to know who's in mind when I think about Khelben's plans et al, think The Batman (especially re: his having contingencies about enemies and friends alike, never wholly trusting people, etc.).
Re: some Moonstars carrying that attitude--interesting thought. Maybe yes. Maybe no. If it works better for your campaign, make it so. Me, I'm hedging all bets and thinking long and hard about what I'd write if I were given the go-ahead to write a Moonstars novel.... |
| Skeptic |
Posted - 13 Jan 2006 : 04:32:40
I run an evil-PCs campaign based on the return of the Shadow thieves in Waterdeep (started a year ago, before CoS came out!).
They hid behind the name of a good adventurers company and do some "non-evil" parts of their jobs in public to get a better reputation, etc.
Recently a member of the group died, and the player is coming back with a new one, a psion(telepath) coming from Tethyr (College of the eclipse).
The psion was a "counsellor" of a shadow thief guildmaster in Tethyr. But recently, the council member (female mulan one) met (under a "false" identity) the PCs during a visit to her cloakmaster (Marune).
Back in Amn/Tethyr, she got in contact with Kiirma Blackmane (Evil Shadow thief guildmaster and Moonstar agent!) about her "psionic" counsellor that she would need for a very important task… To join a would-become silhouette of Waterdeep (PC's "leader").
Now, not only does Khelben know that this young noble is becoming a important member of his enemies, but he has some indirect eyes in their group
The group being currently occupied at starting a war between the Unseen and the Xanathar's... I'll have to decide what he'll do to protect the city from collateral damage.
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| Dart Ambermoon |
Posted - 12 Jan 2006 : 21:48:09
Well...I have always used (and viewed) Khelben as a primarily good "man", which means he has got good motives and works towards good. The LN alignment has never truly gripped fully with me, since I´ve always seen the Blackstaff having a strong tendency towards "doing good". That he has dealings with (probably many, many) creatures/People that are far from good has never swayed this view.
Firstly, Khelben has been doing a lot for a very long time with even longer goals in mind. Realizing that the "smite evil where it stands and consequences be damned"-attitude wouldn´t be doing a fat load of good in view of greater connections and relations and being so powerful that you´ll eventually deal with (near-)equally powerful beings forces masterful scheming. I couldn´t actually see any other way someone like Khelben could act to further his goals, which I still can´t perceive as anything but "good".
Secondly, Khelben may demand hard personal loads to be born by other people for a greater good, but he himself has always been willing to sacrifice even more than those he forces sacrifice upon (at least in my reading of the character). Alingnment-wise I´ve always been more concerned about the lawful aspect...ahem*g*.
Sure, Khelben can be a sour-puss and he´s a definite arrogant s.o.b., but then he can fricking afford to be one, simply because he´s paying a hefty price for everything he´s doing. I mean, I´m sure he doesn´t enjoy having falling-outs with people, being at odds with "friends" or being in the middle of different ambitions, but he accepts them as necessity. I thik him being arrogant doesn´t at all mean that he´s detached, rather I think Khelben is (painfully) aware of any "lesser evils" he is comitting. I don´t see him as the "what do I care"-type, but rather the "I don´t talk about it, but it´s my burden at the end of the day"...but with foresight, divine inspiration and his vast array of knowledge, I very well believe that the ends justify the means in his case...and that he isn´t always happy with the means either, but simply knows that somebody has to make the nasty choices. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Jan 2006 : 21:38:52
Khelben reminds me a lot of the fellow in "serenity: the movie" who was being sent to assassinate the crew for trying to uncover clues to the annihilation of a planet and the formation of the reavers. In that instance, the assassin was given a grand vision that he needed to work towards "a greater good" that would have people conforming to a certain ideal of civility. The assassin himself didn't fit this ideal of civility, but he realized that he was an instrument of necessity for removing those things that prevented this ideal from coming about. Thus, in the end, he hoped that through his own repugnant acts he would make a better world that he would not qualify for. Now, I don't see Khelben being quite this bad.... but I wonder if some of the Moonstars are.
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 23:16:32
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
No comment.
Which is to say... yes. Possibly quite often.
By the way, was Khelben part of Myth Drannor's N'Vaelahr, or did he get taken out of action too soon in the war to have much to do with the Shadow Soldiers? |
| old man |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 22:27:28
New to this board, old friend of the realms.
I see Khelben playing a role similar to that of Leto Atredies II, from the Dune chronicles. Khelben's dealings with Fzoul and the like are just part of his "Golden Path." |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 19:05:36
Evil Steven . . .just evil. Still, if it is true, I'd much rather deal with Laeral (or Khelbun for that matter) than Amanda Waller. The scenery is nicer . . .
As far as alignment, I'm with Wooly. They serve their purpose as a quick shorthand for what a character might act like, but no one conforms 100% to an alignment. Its not a problem with alignment, its a function of the fact that a character that is deep enough is going to have lots of events in their life that varies from their "core." I think sometimes its funny that when people try to say that someone doesn't fit an alignment, they cite one or two events, rather than the majority of events that the character has recently taken.
(Still pondering how much Steven isn't commenting on . . . ) |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 18:29:03
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
You know, its funny, now that you mention that, it gets me to thinking, has Khelbun ever done a "Suicide Squad" type manipulation, i.e. taken groups of wanted individuals that are enemmies of the Lords Alliance, let them know that they are in SERIOUS trouble if they don't work for Khelbun, and then set them loose in regions outside of the typical perview of those who would imprision, punish, or eliminate them, perhaps using them for missions in the Lands of Intruigue or Sembia, for example.
No comment. |
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