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old man
Acolyte
6 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 22:27:28
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New to this board, old friend of the realms.
I see Khelben playing a role similar to that of Leto Atredies II, from the Dune chronicles. Khelben's dealings with Fzoul and the like are just part of his "Golden Path." |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2006 : 23:16:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
 No comment.
Which is to say... yes. Possibly quite often.
By the way, was Khelben part of Myth Drannor's N'Vaelahr, or did he get taken out of action too soon in the war to have much to do with the Shadow Soldiers? |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12091 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2006 : 21:38:52
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Khelben reminds me a lot of the fellow in "serenity: the movie" who was being sent to assassinate the crew for trying to uncover clues to the annihilation of a planet and the formation of the reavers. In that instance, the assassin was given a grand vision that he needed to work towards "a greater good" that would have people conforming to a certain ideal of civility. The assassin himself didn't fit this ideal of civility, but he realized that he was an instrument of necessity for removing those things that prevented this ideal from coming about. Thus, in the end, he hoped that through his own repugnant acts he would make a better world that he would not qualify for. Now, I don't see Khelben being quite this bad.... but I wonder if some of the Moonstars are.
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dart Ambermoon
Learned Scribe
Germany
253 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2006 : 21:48:09
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Well...I have always used (and viewed) Khelben as a primarily good "man", which means he has got good motives and works towards good. The LN alignment has never truly gripped fully with me, since Iīve always seen the Blackstaff having a strong tendency towards "doing good". That he has dealings with (probably many, many) creatures/People that are far from good has never swayed this view.
Firstly, Khelben has been doing a lot for a very long time with even longer goals in mind. Realizing that the "smite evil where it stands and consequences be damned"-attitude wouldnīt be doing a fat load of good in view of greater connections and relations and being so powerful that youīll eventually deal with (near-)equally powerful beings forces masterful scheming. I couldnīt actually see any other way someone like Khelben could act to further his goals, which I still canīt perceive as anything but "good".
Secondly, Khelben may demand hard personal loads to be born by other people for a greater good, but he himself has always been willing to sacrifice even more than those he forces sacrifice upon (at least in my reading of the character). Alingnment-wise Iīve always been more concerned about the lawful aspect...ahem*g*.
Sure, Khelben can be a sour-puss and heīs a definite arrogant s.o.b., but then he can fricking afford to be one, simply because heīs paying a hefty price for everything heīs doing. I mean, Iīm sure he doesnīt enjoy having falling-outs with people, being at odds with "friends" or being in the middle of different ambitions, but he accepts them as necessity. I thik him being arrogant doesnīt at all mean that heīs detached, rather I think Khelben is (painfully) aware of any "lesser evils" he is comitting. I donīt see him as the "what do I care"-type, but rather the "I donīt talk about it, but itīs my burden at the end of the day"...but with foresight, divine inspiration and his vast array of knowledge, I very well believe that the ends justify the means in his case...and that he isnīt always happy with the means either, but simply knows that somebody has to make the nasty choices. |
~ In Finder I trust, for danger I lust ~ |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2006 : 04:32:40
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I run an evil-PCs campaign based on the return of the Shadow thieves in Waterdeep (started a year ago, before CoS came out!).
They hid behind the name of a good adventurers company and do some "non-evil" parts of their jobs in public to get a better reputation, etc.
Recently a member of the group died, and the player is coming back with a new one, a psion(telepath) coming from Tethyr (College of the eclipse).
The psion was a "counsellor" of a shadow thief guildmaster in Tethyr. But recently, the council member (female mulan one) met (under a "false" identity) the PCs during a visit to her cloakmaster (Marune).
Back in Amn/Tethyr, she got in contact with Kiirma Blackmane (Evil Shadow thief guildmaster and Moonstar agent!) about her "psionic" counsellor that she would need for a very important task
To join a would-become silhouette of Waterdeep (PC's "leader").
Now, not only does Khelben know that this young noble is becoming a important member of his enemies, but he has some indirect eyes in their group
The group being currently occupied at starting a war between the Unseen and the Xanathar's... I'll have to decide what he'll do to protect the city from collateral damage. 
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Edited by - Skeptic on 13 Jan 2006 04:45:53 |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1730 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2006 : 22:21:30
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Khelben reminds me a lot of the fellow in "serenity: the movie" who was being sent to assassinate the crew for trying to uncover clues to the annihilation of a planet and the formation of the reavers. In that instance, the assassin was given a grand vision that he needed to work towards "a greater good" that would have people conforming to a certain ideal of civility. The assassin himself didn't fit this ideal of civility, but he realized that he was an instrument of necessity for removing those things that prevented this ideal from coming about. Thus, in the end, he hoped that through his own repugnant acts he would make a better world that he would not qualify for. Now, I don't see Khelben being quite this bad.... but I wonder if some of the Moonstars are.
Phillip aka Sleyvas
RE: Khelben as The Operative--not quite. If you really need to know who's in mind when I think about Khelben's plans et al, think The Batman (especially re: his having contingencies about enemies and friends alike, never wholly trusting people, etc.).
Re: some Moonstars carrying that attitude--interesting thought. Maybe yes. Maybe no. If it works better for your campaign, make it so. Me, I'm hedging all bets and thinking long and hard about what I'd write if I were given the go-ahead to write a Moonstars novel.... |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2006 : 22:26:49
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| Oddly enough, that's exactly what I thought about Khelbun when it comes to "friends and allies." The real scarry thing is if anyone ever manages a "Ra's al Ghul" on Khelbun and finds out what his contingencies and known weaknesses of the various important types in the Realms are . . . |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1730 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2006 : 07:32:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
No comment.
Which is to say... yes. Possibly quite often.
By the way, was Khelben part of Myth Drannor's N'Vaelahr, or did he get taken out of action too soon in the war to have much to do with the Shadow Soldiers?
During or before the war? No. The Nameless Chosen was busy elsewhere.
After the war? He had a few very important tasks to perform for some luminaries of the N'Vaelahr. Can't say beyond that other than to refer you to BLACKSTAFF's release in July. |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2006 : 07:40:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[quote]Originally posted by Dargoth
Neville Chamberlain? Sorry, but I don't think that Khelben would make a mistake like that. Fzoul and the god he serves -- a god that Khelben, by giving him the Scepter, helped bring back -- can be reasonably expected to keep their word. Bane and Fzoul both are lawful evil, so it's no unreasonable to assume they'll keep their word.
Actually I think it will go horriably wrong
A while ago some one Asked Ed about Storms reaction to Blackstaffs deal with Fzoul and the founding of the Moonstars
Ed response wasthat Eleminster told Storm not to worry and that the whole Moonstar buisness would blow up in Khelbans face in the end. |
I am the King of Rome, and above grammar
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2006 : 16:11:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Neville Chamberlain? Sorry, but I don't think that Khelben would make a mistake like that. Fzoul and the god he serves -- a god that Khelben, by giving him the Scepter, helped bring back -- can be reasonably expected to keep their word. Bane and Fzoul both are lawful evil, so it's no unreasonable to assume they'll keep their word.
Actually I think it will go horriably wrong
A while ago some one Asked Ed about Storms reaction to Blackstaffs deal with Fzoul and the founding of the Moonstars
Ed response wasthat Eleminster told Storm not to worry and that the whole Moonstar buisness would blow up in Khelbans face in the end.
I'll acknowledge that it could go wrong... But, unless Elminster is prescient, he can't know for certain that it will backfire. He can be fairly certain, but just because Elminster said it, it's not a foregone conclusion. Oh, and keep in mind that El also said that both he and Khelben were acting as Azuth and Mystra had counseled them to.
El also failed to say exactly how it would blow up in his face -- so Khelben's actions may have precipitated some other adverse effects for him, something that has nothing to do with the Moonstars.
And lastly, Steven's own words, from his thread:
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
On Khelben's thought re: Fzoul betraying their agreement--"Unlike your Lord Neville Chamberlain, I have multitudinous ways to wreak my displeasure upon Lord Chembryl, should he renege on his word. Nor am I so squeamish as to stay my hand if such should happen."
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 Jan 2006 16:14:22 |
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Conlon
Learned Scribe
Canada
132 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2006 : 19:04:23
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Well Met, Learned Folk!
Only recently have I discovered Candlekeep, and here have found a wealth of colorful information to enrich my campaign. I have read many of the FR books, but am unfamiliar with the "Harper Schism" which is mentioned in this thread. I am aware that Khelben has left the Harpers, founding the Moonstars, but some of the details spoken of in this thread lead me to beleive that there is a source outlining this schism more fully. Could someone please point me in the right direction so I might become more enlightened on this subject?
Many thanks.
Conlon "The Grim" |
My hopes are ashes, my dreams are dust. All my intentions mean nothing unless they are followed by action. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2006 : 19:39:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Conlon
Well Met, Learned Folk!
Only recently have I discovered Candlekeep, and here have found a wealth of colorful information to enrich my campaign. I have read many of the FR books, but am unfamiliar with the "Harper Schism" which is mentioned in this thread. I am aware that Khelben has left the Harpers, founding the Moonstars, but some of the details spoken of in this thread lead me to beleive that there is a source outlining this schism more fully. Could someone please point me in the right direction so I might become more enlightened on this subject?
Many thanks.
Conlon "The Grim"
Cloak and Dagger(2e) is easily the best source(practically the only one), and it's also a great book on the organizations and secret societies of the Realms(much better than the 3e Lords of Darkness). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2006 : 23:45:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Cloak and Dagger(2e) is easily the best source(practically the only one), and it's also a great book on the organizations and secret societies of the Realms(much better than the 3e Lords of Darkness).
Yup. Cloak & Dagger also details the Manshoon Wars, another great concept. It's one of the last 2E products (and thus is long out of print), and in my opinion, one of the best Realms products to date.
I see the occasional copy on eBay... Also, Paizo.com has it as a pdf you can download for $4. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2006 : 02:08:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Cloak and Dagger(2e) is easily the best source(practically the only one), and it's also a great book on the organizations and secret societies of the Realms(much better than the 3e Lords of Darkness).
Yup. Cloak & Dagger also details the Manshoon Wars, another great concept. It's one of the last 2E products (and thus is long out of print), and in my opinion, one of the best Realms products to date.
I see the occasional copy on eBay... Also, Paizo.com has it as a pdf you can download for $4.
In addition, I would suggest those with an interest in the Manshoon Wars make a search through Steven Schend's comments here at Candlekeep. Wooly, myself, and a number of other scribes have sometimes engaged Sage Schend with a variety of questions regarding the developments of the Manshoon Clones, the Wars, and Steven's thoughts about the entire saga in the Realmslore.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Conlon
Learned Scribe
Canada
132 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2006 : 10:19:20
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| Many thanks. I appreciate very much the information, and appreciate even more the speed with which it was given. I'll try to dig up "Cloak and Dagger", and have just started sifting through the Sages' area on this site. Wunderbar! I've got a lot of catching up to do! |
My hopes are ashes, my dreams are dust. All my intentions mean nothing unless they are followed by action. |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2006 : 22:25:03
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This is probably the most enjoyably informative thread I have ever read. I am dying to read Blackstaff now. A toast to Khelben for breaking the whole good guy/bad guy stereotype. Even though I still think of him as mostly good.  |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2006 : 00:29:56
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| I kinda whish I hadn't because based on earlier comments, I think I've unravelled some of the plot of Blackstaff! |
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Swordsage
Learned Scribe
149 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2006 : 01:05:06
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
I kinda whish I hadn't because based on earlier comments, I think I've unravelled some of the plot of Blackstaff!
So what do you think is going to happen in the novel?
The Swordsage
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2006 : 02:57:24
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No! Say not what you have gleened from these posts. I beg of thee. I am so hyped about the mystery around Khelben about to reveal some of itself in Blackstaff that I have an extra spring in my step of late. I even get a +1 modifier to my jump skill from it.  I mean gosh. I can't wait for Blackstaff to come out!!!!!! Let the surprise remain. Ahhhhh, the heck with it. The mystery will never be totally revealed anyways so say what ye will.  |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2006 : 03:23:22
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| I just had a thought about Khelben... With his foresight, 17 angles to every issue, and years of skill at manipulating people... I think he would be one of the few humans able to understand a Vorlon. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2006 : 04:57:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I just had a thought about Khelben... With his foresight, 17 angles to every issue, and years of skill at manipulating people... I think he would be one of the few humans able to understand a Vorlon.
*weird noises* Ye-es. *more weird noises* |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2006 : 15:28:48
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Might I ask an incredibly dumb question? What is a Vorlon? |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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At your Behest
Acolyte
Germany
46 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2006 : 15:41:28
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They ( the Vorlons) are an incredibly mysterious, powerful and old (and cool ) race in the science fiction series "(Spacecenter) Babylon 5".
P.S. Babylon 5 rocks ... |
Beware the beast man, for he is the Devil's pawn.
Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yeah, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land.
Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, for he is the harbinger of death. |
Edited by - At your Behest on 09 May 2006 15:43:04 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2006 : 17:38:07
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| Wooly, Sage, you have no idea how disturbing it is to go from a conversation about Mr. Morden to finding the very first thread you open full of Vorlons. |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2006 : 01:26:03
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| Thanks Sage! I actually knew what a Vorlon was without knowing the name of it. Silly me. |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2006 : 01:49:36
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
Wooly, Sage, you have no idea how disturbing it is to go from a conversation about Mr. Morden to finding the very first thread you open full of Vorlons.
The Mr. Morden conversation... That wasn't the one started on the CBT forums was it?
And you're welcome Wandering_Mage. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 10 May 2006 01:50:25 |
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Khelben and the Moonstars
