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Paj
Seeker
United Kingdom
56 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Apr 2006 : 11:23:20
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I was browsin the site looking for information on Orcus/Tenebrous when i came across this post:
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Posted - 16 Apr 2006 : 17:52:17
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Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
As far as Orcus goes, he was a lesser god, was killed by Kiaraunsalee, became the undead creature Tenebrous, then returned to being a demon lord, and that all actually happened back in 2nd Edition.
Yes, but in his 2e return after all that happened, he was still a deity. Especially in FR until the sourcebooks that came after Faiths & Pantheons changed that. :)
Now, the module describing his return was a Planescape Module that used the Great Wheel cosmology.
Since 3rd Edition, FR has, according to designers, always been seperate from the Great Wheel. Also, one of the FR sourcebooks (I forget which) mentions Orcus resurrection in a sidebar.
So, how exactly was Orcus resurrected in FR? If FR always used the Tree cosmology and the Orcus in FR is a seperate being from the Greyhawk Orcus then does the Dead Gods module still hold true for the Orcus in FR?
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2006 : 13:28:15
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Didn't you ask this question earlier in the month?
Anyways... I'm going to say it still holds true. But the fact that prominent planar/divine beings in 3e FR aren't their 3e core D&D counterparts means that events happening to one deity in one cosmological structure ie the core D&D Great Wheel... has no bearing on Realms entities with the same name. The similarities end there -- removing the shared body aspect of 2e.
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2006 : 18:52:31
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Didn't you ask this question earlier in the month?
Anyways... I'm going to say it still holds true. But the fact that prominent planar/divine beings in 3e FR aren't their 3e core D&D counterparts means that events happening to one deity in one cosmological structure ie the core D&D Great Wheel... has no bearing on Realms entities with the same name. The similarities end there -- removing the shared body aspect of 2e.
If I remember correctly, doesn't Kiaransalee's rule over Naratyr end in that adventure? If so, you've got a collision with a passage in F&P that discusses her still ruling over Naratyr(might have been fixed for CoSQ, which I don't have at hand). |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2006 : 19:37:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Didn't you ask this question earlier in the month?
Anyways... I'm going to say it still holds true. But the fact that prominent planar/divine beings in 3e FR aren't their 3e core D&D counterparts means that events happening to one deity in one cosmological structure ie the core D&D Great Wheel... has no bearing on Realms entities with the same name. The similarities end there -- removing the shared body aspect of 2e.
If I remember correctly, doesn't Kiaransalee's rule over Naratyr end in that adventure? If so, you've got a collision with a passage in F&P that discusses her still ruling over Naratyr(might have been fixed for CoSQ, which I don't have at hand).
Orcus's Abyssal realm is Thanatos, which he chased her out of and even more so in FR's new planes since he resides in his layer again and no deities, supposedly, reside in the Abyss according to the Player's Guide even though Lisa Smedmen kept some of the deities in the Abyss in her psionic trilogy. :)
Also, the BOVD, while not core FR, references the two Planescape modules and expands on Orcus's return. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2006 : 22:11:32
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| They should just leave Orcus dead in the FR Kelemvor,Velshoon, Kiranshee have the whole undead thing covered bringing Orcus back and throwing him into the mix is just needless duplication |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 03:32:31
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<<They should just leave Orcus dead in the FR Kelemvor,Velshoon, Kiranshee have the whole <<undead thing covered bringing Orcus back and throwing him into the mix is just needless <<duplication
I agree and disagree, as odd as that sounds. Velsharoon has domain over necromancy, Kelemvor over the dead, and Kiaransalee has the undead (but she is a drow specific deity, much like Corellon is an elven god of wizardry). Then you've got Myrkul's essence still about a little (remember the dungeon mag modules). You've also got Set whom I could see trying to become an interloper deity (if he can wheedle his way into the Faerunian pantheon through Unther and Thay, though he'll have some direct challenge from Shar and probably Talona). Where does Orcus fall in here? I see Orcus as a lesser "demi-god" of undeath who can be a target for these other deities to all try to steal the portfolio from (Velsharoon will want it to expand his power, Kiaransalee wants revenge (and power), and Set will want it as a possible means to expand into Faerun). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Paj
Seeker
United Kingdom
56 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 10:44:41
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quote:
Anyways... I'm going to say it still holds true. But the fact that prominent planar/divine beings in 3e FR aren't their 3e core D&D counterparts means that events happening to one deity in one cosmological structure ie the core D&D Great Wheel... has no bearing on Realms entities with the same name. The similarities end there -- removing the shared body aspect of 2e.
See, this is what confuses me. If the cosmologies have always been seperate - as has been stated by the designers - then wouldnt the Dead Gods module only detail the resurrection of the Great Wheels version of Orcus? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 13:15:14
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We don't have any further information to completely ascertain the truth of this or whether it would be the same in the Realms given the now separate cosmologies and the fact that they are no longer shared beings (or in fact never have been). Since we are now dealing with separate cosmologies that remove the shared body aspect of 2e... it's entirely possible that these previous events have little basis with the Realms Orcus in 3e.
But, as Kuje notes above, the BoVD reference to Orcus certainly brings the events of the 2e module into the 3e Great Wheel and thus, acknowledges them as still fact in the 3e D&D cosmology.
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Edited by - The Sage on 25 Apr 2006 13:19:38 |
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Paj
Seeker
United Kingdom
56 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 13:40:27
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So basically the method of Orcus's Resurrection in FR 3.5 is known only to Orcus himself at this point. Thanks for clearing that up.
quote:
and no deities, supposedly, reside in the Abyss according to the Player's Guide even though Lisa Smedmen kept some of the deities in the Abyss in her psionic trilogy. :)
Which Deities are mentioned in her Trilogy as having their realms in the abyss? |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 13:48:59
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In any case Orcus should be out of action in the realms for at least the next 80 Faerunian Years
The Wand of Orcus had a great deal of Orcus power and when Gareth Dragonsbane destroyed it by shoving it into Tiamats heart it more or less crippled him until he could replace it which would take 100 years. This means no more Orcus in the Realms until 1459DR
Then theres Kiaransalee killing orcus: We can safely say this occured in the Realm cosmology after all Kiaransalee is a Faerunian Goddess. Now Planescape decided to bring him back hwoever with 3ed Planescape doesnt exist and infact Planescape never existed EVER as th FR cosmology has always been. This means that the Faerunian Orcus could never resurrect himself as the means he used in the Planescape module simply doesnt exist in the FR ie Modrons and Plane Meachanus
FR Orcus was crippled by Gareth Dragonsbane and finished off by Kiaransalee. Hes dead in the Toril the same way Lolth is dead in Oreth
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 16:18:02
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Well that makes sense since Sseth slept through the switch to 3rd edition . . . he didn't get his planar eviction notice 
I would say that Orcus is able to come back to the Realms, since he died, became a new being, Tenebrous, then came back to life. I think that trumps the whole banishment issue that would normally be in effect.
In general, I would say that even if the cosmologies are different, unless we are specifically told that something different happened in their histories, we have a bit of parallel development going on (wow, another Star Trek reference . . . what the heck). Somehow, Orcus, Kiraunsalee, and anyone else involed are "doomed" to follow a similar, if not parallel, path, unless something major alters that path.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 17:34:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
FR Orcus was crippled by Gareth Dragonsbane and finished off by Kiaransalee. Hes dead in the Toril the same way Lolth is dead in Oreth
Except he isn't obviously since he's mentioned in at least three FR 3/3.5 sourcebooks and Lloth isn't dead in Greyhawk, btw.
So yes, he did use the same ritual to return as a being to the Realms Prime.
As for the books he's listed in. Faiths & Pantheons, Unapproachable East, where he has a cleric, The Player's Guide, and others. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 18:04:11
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As it is... we know, at least, that Orcus in the Realms is still active. We knew he was alive since the end of 2e when he returned in the Great Modron March and Dead Gods PS adventures. And as I said above... this lore was taken up into the 3e changeover as we've seen in both the BoVD for the generic D&D cosmology and F&P for the Realms.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 22:18:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
FR Orcus was crippled by Gareth Dragonsbane and finished off by Kiaransalee. Hes dead in the Toril the same way Lolth is dead in Oreth
Except he isn't obviously since he's mentioned in at least three FR 3/3.5 sourcebooks and Lloth isn't dead in Greyhawk, btw.
So yes, he did use the same ritual to return as a being to the Realms Prime.
As for the books he's listed in. Faiths & Pantheons, Unapproachable East, where he has a cleric, The Player's Guide, and others.
Which is just another unnecessary Realmslore inconsistency  |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 22:29:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
FR Orcus was crippled by Gareth Dragonsbane and finished off by Kiaransalee. Hes dead in the Toril the same way Lolth is dead in Oreth
Except he isn't obviously since he's mentioned in at least three FR 3/3.5 sourcebooks and Lloth isn't dead in Greyhawk, btw.
So yes, he did use the same ritual to return as a being to the Realms Prime.
As for the books he's listed in. Faiths & Pantheons, Unapproachable East, where he has a cleric, The Player's Guide, and others.
Which is just another unnecessary Realmslore inconsistency
Fails to see how. Him not returning would be a Realmslore inconsistency since he returned in various 2e FR and Planescape sourcebooks. So.... I'm seriously wondering why you think this would be a inconsistancy. I'm really looking for an answer on why you believe this. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 25 Apr 2006 22:37:51 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 02:16:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Which is just another unnecessary Realmslore inconsistency
Curious. How is it a Realmslore inconsistency? As we've already noted, we know Orcus returned in the late part of 2e in both PLANESCAPE and the FORGOTTEN REALMS -- which was carried into 3e with the BoVD for the generic core cosmology and F&P for 3e FR. It's only building on what we knew before in 2e...
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 11:36:14
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The whole Orcus issue is very itchy from the word go, at least when it comes to his involvement into FR cosmology. What there is to know about him in FR is being found in the Bloodstone Lands adventures / sourcebooks, Demihuman Deities, (all AD&D times) and the Players Guide to Faerûn. Just to let you know, the latter book states that Kiaransalee is indeed back in her Realm of the Demonweb Pits (which are no longer part of the Abyss) after being forced out of Thanatos be the returned Orcus. The archdemon himself is no deity, only a powerful being able to grant divine spells via certain means (see PGtF & Champions of Ruin).
Main problem with him in FR cosmology is that he should not have been able to gain access to them without the consense of Ao (who is not mentioned at all through Orcus' history AFAIK) if he was considered a deity. Then again, the Ao - rule only came into being with the Faiths & Avatars series, i.e. at a time when Orcus was there already, deity or not. Being killed twice, once by Kia, once by his failure to utilize that Last Word (methinks) when being the undead (of all people!!!) god Tenebrous ... make the whole thing even more debatable. How he came back again is unclear, his re-appearance in the Realms surely coinsides with what happened to the Core chap. (Thus, the Lower Planes may still be a link between the settings, even though they may work differently ... depending from which setting you want to access them.
Not that I bother. I have no problem with the current set of rules. Orcus is where he belongs and what he is supposed to be, as is Kiaransalee. One wonders what the dealings will be after the WotSQ in the Demonweb Pits though. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 26 Apr 2006 11:38:21 |
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darkflame millithor
Seeker
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2006 : 21:21:56
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| Hey ,whats tis about Lolth being dead? THe justicar,and the fairy killed her avatar on it's home plane ,sure that kills abyssal lords but it doesn't kill deities.(I mean it's the second time they suposiedly killed her. Orcus seems to have more lives than a cat! |
purge all weakness in the cleanzing flame of
rightousness.tear down the false idols of love,compassion,and self-sacrifice.down with the tyranny of the seldarine |
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Orcus's Resurrection in 3.5ed
