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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Nov 2005 : 04:04:41
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Im reading the write up in Champions of Ruin and I cant see any reason why they should be restricted to evil only.
Wil? Eric?
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2005 : 05:18:56
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I remember some people having serious problems with this as well when this book first came out. I believe it was Wooly Rupert who first mentioned it and no reasonable answer was given.
I think the answer is more like "We were making a book about evil characters so we decided to give it an evil twist".
In my opinion sometimes PrC's are made too specific. The Thayan Gladiator for example could easily be a gladiator from any city that supports bloodsports. |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2005 : 05:57:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
I believe the thread where this was discussed is right here....about three quarters of the way down, started by Wooly...
http://candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3485&whichpage=6
Looks like Ill just hyave to rule ZERO it
Incidently anyone else think the Shade Hunter and the Cultist of the Shattered peak are a little to similar in flavour? |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Bocklin
Learned Scribe
Germany
151 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2005 : 15:49:40
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quote:
Looks like Ill just hyave to rule ZERO it
Incidently anyone else think the Shade Hunter and the Cultist of the Shattered peak are a little to similar in flavour?
Yep. Although one (Shattered Peak Cultist) is about *preventing* people to access Netheresse ruins and the other (Shade Hunter) is about *discovering and breaking in* Netheresse ruins.
They are kind of around the same team but opposed to each other.
Bocklin |
Edited by - Bocklin on 25 Nov 2005 15:50:01 |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2005 : 16:06:45
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Would make for an interesting story if you could get those two different PrCs in the same party - it would be like Indiana Jones and General Veers in The Last Crusade.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2005 : 03:36:10
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But you know Admiral Ozel couldn't be in The Last Crusade becuase he was already Hitler . . . oh nevermind.
Its pretty much already been stated, but yeah, Cultists of the Shatered Peaks don't trust arcane magic, and they specifically want to keep old Netherese secrests from surfacing. Shade Hunters are interested in Netherese magic to horde it themselves before the Shadovar can recover it. The point, I would assume, is that the Shade Hunters are selfish power mongers, thus justifying the evil alignment requirment (though I don't really think evil selfish tomb robbers interested in Netherese magic sould qualify for a special prestige class, there have to be quite a range of people that description fits). |
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Cam Beul
Acolyte
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2005 : 03:45:07
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| If you can call a prestige class evil with no explaination, than you can include a Helmite PrC in a book devoted to good. That PrC for some reason was evil, and yet the Justice of Weald and Woe, with it's death attack and poison weapon abilities, you can be LG. But I understand. Different designers for each book. I wasn't that crazy about needing a Helm PrC, I just think throwing one in would have at least as much justification as putting in the Shade Hunter(whose alignment requirement I almost considered a typo), and I don't see another good chance to put one in future sourcebooks. Sorry to get off topic. Yeah, the alignemnt pre-req was odd. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2005 : 22:47:36
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| I couldn't really see why the Shade Hunter should be restricted to evil, myself. Let's say it's a given that anyone who is a Shade Hunter is selfish and after personal power. So what? You don't have to be evil to be selfish and want power (many people of all alignments are like that, to different extents). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 26 Nov 2005 22:47:58 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2005 : 02:50:55
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Oh, I agree on that. A simple "non-good" would work here, especially in light of how say, hexblades are explained as not being able to be good. Selfish and greedy, obsessed with power may not be an altruistic position, but its not automatically evil either.
In the end though, the PrC isn't that compelling to me to worry about one way or the other. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2005 : 03:47:05
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Oh, I agree on that. A simple "non-good" would work here, especially in light of how say, hexblades are explained as not being able to be good. Selfish and greedy, obsessed with power may not be an altruistic position, but its not automatically evil either.
And what about someone who wants the power and knowledge for good ends (understanding the tools of the Shades to better fight them, for example)? I don't have this book on hand so I can't really double check the description of the class, but when I read it, it didn't pop out at me as being particularly evil. It could just be a neutral type of class--any character can take the class, no matter what their motives are.
quote:
In the end though, the PrC isn't that compelling to me to worry about one way or the other.
I feel the same way. But it's fun to talk about at least. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 04 Dec 2005 03:48:15 |
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Wil_Upchurch
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2005 : 02:55:44
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| Eh, "it was a book about evil PCs" is about the best explanation I can give. :) |
Wil Upchurch
15th-Level Freelancer
magewebmaster@yahoo.com |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2005 : 03:44:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wil_Upchurch
Eh, "it was a book about evil PCs" is about the best explanation I can give. :)
Yeah but theres nothing evil about it
When I first saw the name shade hunter as a prc I thought it would be for Shades from Shade enclave ie a group of shades who work as Assasin/Treasure Hunters..... |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2005 : 04:50:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
[And what about someone who wants the power and knowledge for good ends (understanding the tools of the Shades to better fight them, for example)?
From what you said Rinonalyrna... Hmmm, Rinon  , Anyways, from what you said, that is not a selfish edge. If it deals with anyone other than the self, that would be considered unselfish. Now if one begins to go into 'anti-heroes', who (in our opinion) are heroes who accomplish good ends by mistake (doing their own thing and indirectly achieve a similar end) at best it should be a Neutral, and at worst evil. But, this all depends on one's take on selfishness and what is considered good or evil by one's own self. Perfect example is of course the Drow, who are practical. In the underdark treachery and death go hand in hand. It's just another day in paradise for them, while the surface veiws them and their acts as depraved and evil. It's all in the Eye of a Beholder   |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2005 : 05:50:39
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I just reread this again, and up until you read the Realms specific references, this PrC could have been describing Indiana Jones. Not only is the "any evil" thing strange, but upon rereading this, why would you need Shades as your chosen enemey? For one thing, you are, according to this, interested in Netherese artifacts, which could have nothing to do with Shade. For another thing, if you are trying to get in, steal artifacts, and get out before the Shade get there, why would being good at fighting them be a prerequisite for the class?
Ah well. If this had been presented as a class of specially trained treasure hunters that the Thayans or the Zhents have been sponsoring to get Netherese artifacts before the Shadovar, it all would have made more sense. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2005 : 08:16:04
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I just reread this again, and up until you read the Realms specific references, this PrC could have been describing Indiana Jones.
That was exactly what I thought, too. The PrC screams "Indiana Jones"! And he was far from being evil...
In the thread referenced above, I even mentioned Indiana Jones (the 10 May 2005 03:14:21 post). I also went over some other PrCs that I felt were either forced to be evil with no real reason, or were too tightly tied to one specific group when they would also fit a lot of others. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2005 : 18:39:48
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quote:
Originally posted by The Cardinal
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
[And what about someone who wants the power and knowledge for good ends (understanding the tools of the Shades to better fight them, for example)?
From what you said Rinonalyrna... Hmmm, Rinon , Anyways, from what you said, that is not a selfish edge. If it deals with anyone other than the self, that would be considered unselfish. Now if one begins to go into 'anti-heroes', who (in our opinion) are heroes who accomplish good ends by mistake (doing their own thing and indirectly achieve a similar end) at best it should be a Neutral, and at worst evil. But, this all depends on one's take on selfishness and what is considered good or evil by one's own self.
Yes Cardinal, but remember that this is a game that doesn't even seem to consider stealing to be evil--indeed, aren't players allowed to make good-aligned thieves, who will merrily steal from others, for whatever reason (even to give back later)? In fact, much of D&D in general involves picking up treasure left over by others, in dungeons and such, even though doing so isn't necessarily selfless. As said by Knight and Wooly, this could easily be a class for a person (perhaps good-aligned) who just happens to be interested in the collection and study of Netherese lore.
Wil Upchurch, with all due respect, your response begs the question. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 11 Dec 2005 18:42:03 |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2005 : 19:00:51
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True, very true. We believe though, that perhaps what would exclude a Shade Hunter from being good, would be (from what we can gather reading and re-reading them over) is that they are more willing to "act proactively to recover the treasure he believes is rightfully his." Which counter weights the fact that there is a little more than a glimmer of greed driving him.
We do not disagree that it being an Evil alone class is a bit foolish, however we do protest the idea that goodly aligned folk would take to the path so readily. Other classes that come to mind for an Indiana Jones-ish character would be A Dungeon Delver, Royal Explorer, or Temple Raider of (insert Name of Chaotic/Trickery/Bravado Deity here) From the Song and Silence Rogues and Bards Guidebook. It's not so much the act the but the meaning behind the act that is important. |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2005 : 21:53:41
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quote:
Originally posted by The Cardinal
True, very true. We believe though, that perhaps what would exclude a Shade Hunter from being good, would be (from what we can gather reading and re-reading them over) is that they are more willing to "act proactively to recover the treasure he believes is rightfully his." Which counter weights the fact that there is a little more than a glimmer of greed driving him.
Hmmm. I guess it depends on how "proactively" is being defined.
The only core class that is actually *required* to be altruistic is the paladin, and yet none of those classes is restricted from being good or neutral. That's more or less where I was coming from. Still, I think you do make a good point. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2005 : 22:19:05
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Well, you also have to remember, in 3/3.5E the rogue isn't necessarily a thief. That is why it run the gamut of alignments. If you choose to make your rogue a thief, then a person should choose a appropriate alignment. However, if you wanted to make a swashbuckling type of character (not the class), there is nothing saying you cannot be good.
That's one thing I like about 3/3.5 - the rogue class is ambiguous enough to be used for many different purposes.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Why is the Shade Hunter PrC evil Only?
