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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Sep 2005 : 20:31:17
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If Mezzoloths and Mariliths and all others started showing up in my backyard... I would kick... I mean, stay out of there way since there are quite a few of them. 
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2005 : 20:49:56
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Oh yeah, I forgot to mention--the fey'ri dispatched a few errant cults as well adventurers. And of course, they suffered staggering losses there, too. (sarcasm)
Sarya no longer has orcs, ogres and trolls working for her. And like some other people, I find it hard to believe that demons and devils would just put aside their differences to work with her. It sort of violates the unwritten "evil is not monolithic" guideline, if nothing else. And if the devils in question have weakened ties (or whatever), that doesn't automatically make them more likely to join a motley army of demons (IMO).
Also, the fey'ri are not superbeings (even in the book, individual fey'ri aren't that hard to kill!). Sarya herself isn't staggeringly powerful: she is what, a lvl 17 or 18 spellcaster? Yes, that's powerful, but it's nothing earthshattering. ARe these really the most powerful beings to try to take over in 600+ years? So powerful even, say, colossal sized dragons won't dare come near them? I find that hard to believe.
Lastly, the fact that the drow are suffering from "internal problems" and aren't around to menace the fey'ri only cements my belief that this is very much a "smile and nod" plot. Sarya mentions in the book that she has no use for drow. Well, guess what, Sarya? The drow how no use for you, either. In fact, they'd happy to kill you and the rest of the winged twerps you brought with you. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 29 Sep 2005 20:57:43 |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2005 : 09:29:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Sarya mentions in the book that she has no use for drow. Well, guess what, Sarya? The drow how no use for you, either. In fact, they'd happy to kill you and the rest of the winged twerps you brought with you.
Sarya is far to arrogant to even imagine that the "lowly drow" would ever use her. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2005 : 13:07:07
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First of all, the Daemonfey are a lot stronger than House Jaelre. And of course she has no use for Drow, she may have allied with Fiends, but even she, as member of a high gold elven house, would never lower her standards.
Sarya, with the backing of Malkizid is extremely powerful. Her allies make her mighty - no person can stand alone against an army of elves, humans, or any other race. But when a former Archdevil tells demons, yugoloths, and devils to follow his lead, they will. His might alone keeps his soldiers in check. For gosh sakes, he taught her how to alter mythals - that makes her a little more powerful than the average 18th level wizard. Plus, it is a book, and they don't necessary have to go along with the crunch of the books.
C-Fb
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Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2005 : 19:59:24
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
First of all, the Daemonfey are a lot stronger than House Jaelre. And of course she has no use for Drow, she may have allied with Fiends, but even she, as member of a high gold elven house, would never lower her standards.
*sigh* I never said I was surprised at how she reacted. Do not miss my point that the absence of any type of resistance (besides from Seveiril and friends!) in this book, drow or not, comes across as incredibly contrived to me.
quote:
Sarya, with the backing of Malkizid is extremely powerful. Her allies make her mighty - no person can stand alone against an army of elves, humans, or any other race. But when a former Archdevil tells demons, yugoloths, and devils to follow his lead, they will. His might alone keeps his soldiers in check.
Again, I'm just not buying this, because I'd first have to agree that devils and demons would work together if told to, and I haven't done that yet.
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For gosh sakes, he taught her how to alter mythals - that makes her a little more powerful than the average 18th level wizard. Plus, it is a book, and they don't necessary have to go along with the crunch of the books.
I never said she wasn't powerful (and does she really have the backing of Malkizid? Hmmm...?). I just find it hard to believe that in 600+ years, Sarya & Co. is the only group that has ever managed to take control of Myth Drannor. It's basically been wild up until now, and there is a reason for that. It's rather naive, in my opinion, to assume that getting in to Myth Drannor to establish their power was easy--just a matter of killing off a few cults and adventurers--and it's equally naive to assume that every single creature in the forest is now so utterly terrified that they won't do anything about it. I'll say it again: if it were so easy, it would have been done before. It's been over 600 years. Is Sarya the only one who has ever tried to take Myth Drannor? Somehow I doubt that. This isn't just about numbers-crunching. Anyone who thinks it is is missing my point. That's exactly what I mean when I call it a "smile and nod plot". It's illogical, so you just smile and nod and go on reading the story, as silly as it all is.
There's nothing wrong with that, really. As I said before I enjoyed reading this book--the positive comments I made (and yes, I made some) still stand. But I think of how much better this series would be if it had distinctive characters I could care about, as well as plot elements that, well, feel more like a realistically flowing story than contrived "plot elements". I feel what I feel, and nothing anyone says is going to change that. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 30 Sep 2005 20:10:18 |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2005 : 20:25:47
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There's nothing wrong with that, really. As I said before I enjoyed reading this book--the positive comments I made (and yes, I made some) still stand. But I think of how much better this series would be if it had distinctive characters I could care about, as well as plot elements that, well, feel more like a realistically flowing story than contrived "plot elements". I feel what I feel, and nothing anyone says is going to change that.
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Again, I just think both the Drow and the Daemonfey are smart enough to stay out of each others' way. Why would they cross each other when by doing so they would let those creatures who wish to vanquish them become that much stronger?
Their opposition being contrived, well, it does seem so. I don't think the Elves are contrived, but the three armies of humans seem more wishy-washy than the main war. I mean, Sembia/Zhentil Keep/Hillsfar can't keep themselves together for like 3 days? Please.. they would have no empire then.
Demons and Devils will do anything if someone of greater power can command them to and then back it up with their strength. If you read about Malkizid in Champions of Ruin, it says he took a group of Devils with him when he went to became a Yugoloth lord. He commands those devils out of fear and respect. He commands the Yugoloth because all yugoloths follow whatever is best for them (neutral evil). The Demons are just following out of straight fear.
And of course she does not have the backing of Malkizid, but Malkizid knows what he wants and he is just using his latest pawn to get it. Sarya has probably been the most powerful, most organized leader to have attempted Myth Drannor since it's fall. Most of all, most others wouldn't really want Myth Drannor, they would just want the treasures buried there. Sarya actually wanted the land, and brought the right tools for the job.
And I wasn't trying to bring up numbers, but you simply can't call Sarya unpowerful. She has the personal power of Malkizid to help her out right now, and she herself is a powerful wizard.
I really was involved with Araevin and the plot seemed good to me. Sure, it wasn't LotR complex, but that wasn't what I thought I was getting into when I picked it up. I believe the focus on this story shows us a good expose of Araevin and Severil. The other characters are there just to further the plot.
Caveat: This is my opinion, and I know everyone else here feels their own way. Wasn't trying to start an argument, just wanted to put my thoughts out to your points. Don't take anything personally. 
C-Fb
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Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2005 : 20:54:28
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Again, I just think both the Drow and the Daemonfey are smart enough to stay out of each others' way. Why would they cross each other when by doing so they would let those creatures who wish to vanquish them become that much stronger?
*shrug* I never really thought of it that way. But again, it seems to me that the drow, in this book, are just neatly out of the way when they would likely be dogging the heels of anyone who set foot into the forest. The daemonfey have an army. But does the entire army move as a whole? No. There are going to be opportunities to nip at the heels. Also, we know by the end of the book that the daemonfey are setting up their own little town/workstation sort of thing. Again, I don't think the various denizens of the forest are just going to sit by and let them do whatever they want, at least not for long. I'm not just talking about the drow either--any powerful creature in the forest is fair game, here.
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Their opposition being contrived, well, it does seem so. I don't think the Elves are contrived, but the three armies of humans seem more wishy-washy than the main war. I mean, Sembia/Zhentil Keep/Hillsfar can't keep themselves together for like 3 days? Please.. they would have no empire then.
Agreed! The whole thing with the human armies was a bit strange.
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Demons and Devils will do anything if someone of greater power can command them to and then back it up with their strength. If you read about Malkizid in Champions of Ruin, it says he took a group of Devils with him when he went to became a Yugoloth lord. He commands those devils out of fear and respect. He commands the Yugoloth because all yugoloths follow whatever is best for them (neutral evil). The Demons are just following out of straight fear.
Well, Malkizid is a devil to begin with, so no surprise that other devils follow him. The Yugoloths fight for whomever will pay them, or so I hear. But the demons? Eh. The argument about weakened ties could, as far as I see it, make fiends more likely to be rogues than to join an army together. If the humans couldn't work together for long, why wouldn't this motley group eventually fall apart?
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And of course she does not have the backing of Malkizid, but Malkizid knows what he wants and he is just using his latest pawn to get it. Sarya has probably been the most powerful, most organized leader to have attempted Myth Drannor since it's fall.
Maybe, maybe not. There's no way of knowing, really. Even if she is, I would have "bought" her taking over Myth Drannor more easily if the author dedicated more than a few sentences to it, and didn't make it seem so damned easy.
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And I wasn't trying to bring up numbers, but you simply can't call Sarya unpowerful.
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But I didn't. How many times must I repeat myself?
She's powerful, but what I said was that her power isn't earthshattering. She's certainly no high-mage. Her fey'ri minions are not only relatively easy to kill (at least, for the protagonists!), but they are also finite. If her army dwindles, she'll be left with...well, not much, and she won't be nearly the formidable person she is now.
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I really was involved with Araevin and the plot seemed good to me. Sure, it wasn't LotR complex, but that wasn't what I thought I was getting into when I picked it up. I believe the focus on this story shows us a good expose of Araevin and Severil. The other characters are there just to further the plot.
That's the problem. There is potential for them to be great characters in their own right, not just serve the plot. A while after reading a book, most of us will forget about the details of the plot. However, great characters stick with us. I wish the characters in this book had...more character.
quote:
Caveat: This is my opinion, and I know everyone else here feels their own way. Wasn't trying to start an argument, just wanted to put my thoughts out to your points. Don't take anything personally.
I'm not. Your thoughts are welcome. And I don't expect everyone to feel the same way I do.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2005 : 01:13:22
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Speaking of contrived things that happen too easily . . . is it possible that the whole balance of power in Myth Drannor was really thrown off when Vala killed off a bunch of Phaerimm in the ROTAW books (even with a Baelnorn to help her . . . these guys gave the Netherese a hard time, created Anauroch, and her little black sword and some directions from a dead elf and eek, the Phaerimm run like crazy)? Of course, its sad that we have a book concerned with Myth Drannor and we don't get to see a lot of the politics of the place that were laid out in Ruins of Myth Drannor.
I really do like this series, but yes, there are some things that seem forced. Perhaps this series could have been streached into five or six books given the scope of what is happening, but generally speaking, everything in the Realms is concluded in one or three books, and its rare to see any change to this format (Cleric Quintet and WOTSQ excluded, hm, wonder what they have in common).
Finally, I have to say Seiveril is more interesting to me that Araevin. He seems to be more interesting in the long view. Nothing against Araevin.
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jameslt0
Seeker
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2005 : 01:18:18
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IMO, which is not worth much, this entire demon / fey'ri issue maybe cleared up in book III. I think that they demons and devils are cooperating for one reason, freedom from Myth Drannor. Isn't it the Mythal of Myth Drannor that keep the demons and devils from running loose over Cormanthor, much less the rest of Faerun. Maybe they see the fey'ri as a means to get loose of Myth Drannor.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2005 : 03:27:04
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Speaking of contrived things that happen too easily . . . is it possible that the whole balance of power in Myth Drannor was really thrown off when Vala killed off a bunch of Phaerimm in the ROTAW books (even with a Baelnorn to help her . . . these guys gave the Netherese a hard time, created Anauroch, and her little black sword and some directions from a dead elf and eek, the Phaerimm run like crazy)? Of course, its sad that we have a book concerned with Myth Drannor and we don't get to see a lot of the politics of the place that were laid out in Ruins of Myth Drannor.
She may have killed off a bunch, but I think there were a handful left.
And they weren't the only baddies in Myth Drannor... The priests of the Dawnspire, and the various adventuring groups, were powerful enough to survive in Myth Drannor. Sure, groups that can hold off against disorganized enemies will have a hard time against an organized enemy... But they'll still extract a price from the fey'ri before they fall.
What about baelnorn? We know some of them were wandering around. What about the lich, Druuth Daern?
There were enough power groups in the city to make things difficult for the fey'ri. And they were somehow brushed aside with nary a word... |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 01 Oct 2005 03:28:58 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2005 : 03:40:59
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Oh, I know there were a lot of power factions withing Myth Drannor, my Wooly friend, I was just pointing out another trilogy that seemed to make a few sweeping changes without much of a nod toward the others in centuries past that might have failed where the new characters succeeded. Though you have to admit, the Phaerimm in Myth Drannor were suppose to be REALLY powerful examples.
But I digress . . . |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2005 : 03:49:21
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quote:
Originally posted by jameslt0
IMO, which is not worth much, this entire demon / fey'ri issue maybe cleared up in book III. I think that they demons and devils are cooperating for one reason, freedom from Myth Drannor. Isn't it the Mythal of Myth Drannor that keep the demons and devils from running loose over Cormanthor, much less the rest of Faerun. Maybe they see the fey'ri as a means to get loose of Myth Drannor.
*nods* Maybe so.
I also agree with Wooly: what about baelnorns and all the other restless elven spirits? After reading that short story about the ghosts in Myth Drannor in The Best of the Realms: The Stories of Ed Greenwood, I'm certain MD isn't a place you can just waltz into easily...
As for the events in the RotAW series, I can't comment, since I haven't read it yet (gasp!). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2005 : 05:59:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
As for the events in the RotAW series, I can't comment, since I haven't read it yet (gasp!).
I recommend that you continue that trend. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2005 : 08:19:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
As for the events in the RotAW series, I can't comment, since I haven't read it yet (gasp!).
I recommend that you continue that trend.
I recommend that you do not. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2005 : 15:39:08
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| You never can tell, there may be parts of that series that would clarify whatever is going to happen in Paul S Kemps new trilogy. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2005 : 21:17:25
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I will eventually read them, because:
A) I paid for them and already have them sitting in my closet, so I might as well read them...
B) I hope to eventually read every single Realms book.
Truth be told, I don't expect them to be that good though. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2005 : 23:38:57
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Ah... love business hotels... finally, complementary network connections.
I don't think any balance of power has shifted much in MD. There are still tons of baddies!! But I agree with the most of you... there has to be a ton of restless Elven spirits running around there, pissed that some fake elves with demon blood are running the show there.
Oh well.. and KEJR - don't mention RotA here! Argh! :)
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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jameslt0
Seeker
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2005 : 00:29:44
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RotA...Return of the Archwizards.
James
Mod Edit: Sorry but that was crossing a line and I removed the word that didn't belong. |
Edited by - Kuje on 02 Oct 2005 02:18:24 |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2005 : 02:13:19
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Close enough... that series pi$$ed my off bigtime...
I will despise Denning forever because of Takari Moonsnow.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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jameslt0
Seeker
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2005 : 04:49:27
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quote:
Originally posted by jameslt0
Mod Edit: Sorry but that was crossing a line and I removed the word that didn't belong.
Sorry about that. I will keep that in mind in the future.
James |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2005 : 10:52:00
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Close enough... that series pi$$ed my off bigtime...
I will despise Denning forever because of Takari Moonsnow.
C-Fb
You hate the entire series because of one character? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2005 : 13:10:03
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Yeah, that's how much the portrayal of that just annoyed me. You know, sometimes you run across something that is just rubs you the wrong way. I couldn't stand the way Denning wrote the elven women - they were slutting themselves out, and that just bothered me.
Plus, some of the descriptions were just offensive.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2005 : 17:41:08
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My problem with the trilogy was the fact that all the established white hats acted like idiots. Only his characters were able to do the right thing.
But... As much as I could happily bash that trilogy, it's not the intent of this thread. We should perhaps get back to discussing Farthest Reach. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2005 : 20:24:09
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Ok, here's a question then -
What do you think would be the stat boost associated with what Araevin did with the Eladrin? I mean, did it increase his effective level or was it just fluff to explain that he could now do what normal Elves of his age and talents could never hope to attain? Opinions?
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2005 : 04:31:58
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Ok, here's a question then -
What do you think would be the stat boost associated with what Araevin did with the Eladrin? I mean, did it increase his effective level or was it just fluff to explain that he could now do what normal Elves of his age and talents could never hope to attain? Opinions?
C-Fb
The sad thing is that the race change (to Celestial) and all the stat boosts in the world could never give Araevin an interesting personality.
On a more serious note, I doubt Araevin can have a normal relationship with Ilsevele now that he is no longer a true elf. This is one plot point that I DID like--I got the sense that Araevin really DID give up something important for the new power he attained. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2005 : 12:53:05
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True - I agree with your assessment with the giving up portion. I think that Araevin wasn't even thinking about what he was truly giving up when he jumped for the power. Makes him almost the typical Gold Elf. I do feel bad for Ilsevele - she lost a lot more in this book than Araevin or any of the others.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2005 : 20:44:29
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
True - I agree with your assessment with the giving up portion. I think that Araevin wasn't even thinking about what he was truly giving up when he jumped for the power. Makes him almost the typical Gold Elf.
How so? I'm just curious. I tend to shy away from concepts like "typical gold elf", myself, but that's just me.
Also, if Araevin is such an "inquisitive" person, you'd think he'd inquire someone (maybe even Morwel, who was obviously the celestial who visited him) what the implications of obtaining the new power would be. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2005 : 23:02:43
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Yeah, but that's what I meant by typical gold elf. All he saw was a way to gain some power to stop Sarya from unleashing hell on earth. Well, he was so wrapped up with his gaining power and defeating Saelithil, he forgot to ask, "Do I really want to do this?" Even Morwel told him he might not know what he is getting into, but he did it anyway. That was his one typical gold elven trait.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2005 : 13:13:43
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Yeah, but that's what I meant by typical gold elf. All he saw was a way to gain some power to stop Sarya from unleashing hell on earth. Well, he was so wrapped up with his gaining power and defeating Saelithil, he forgot to ask, "Do I really want to do this?" Even Morwel told him he might not know what he is getting into, but he did it anyway. That was his one typical gold elven trait.
C-Fb
Morwel? That Eladrin never mentioned her name. Who is Morwel? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2005 : 13:36:09
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I think she is listed as the Eladrin queen in one book. It might be in Book of Exalted Deeds or may have even been a 2e book. But I agree with Rinonalyrna Fathomlin - it was definitely her.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Farthest Reach (The Last Mythal Book II) Spoilers
