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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Feb 2006 : 13:49:08
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Because us scribes are subject to inhaling a great deal of mold from ancient tomes, the stink of adventurers tromping in demanding to know how to slay dragons, and the fumes of a hamster litterbox, I think it’s affected our ability to stay on topic; and on that note:
quote:
Originally posted by Koushiro
I'm quite looking foreword to the wizards series, though I do think wizards are a little overdone in FR novels.
Does anyone else think this? The recent explosion of class series novels (not including the Wizards Series, of course) has given the spotlight to a few other classes, and of course Drizz’t and Co has almost always been wizard free, as far as the core party.
So when I step back and think about it, I don’t really have a case for the FR novels in general to be overly full of wizards, but my initial feeling was to agree with Koushiro’s statement, as though there were an abundance of wizardly novels.
So, am I just thinking there are to many wizard novels around because I haven’t really separated sourcebooks from novels in my head, or perhaps I’m biased because Spellfire and the Elminster books were some of the first I read, way back when they were new?
Oh, and I decided not to go off topic and just start a new thread. The thread that Koushiro’s quote comes from is here: http://www.candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5995
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"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2006 : 22:10:12
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Well, wizards are everywhere, in general: as secondary charaters, tertiary characters, or antagonists. But if I want to be fair, I'll just name books off the top of my head that feature wizards as primary characters (note: I've read most of it, but not all, so feel free to correct me):
The Counselors & Kings trilogy (Tzigone, Keturah... hell, it's set in Halruaa, a nation-ful of wizards)
The Starlight & Shadows trilogy (Liriel)
The War of the Spider Queen series (Pharaun)
All the Elminster books (Elminster in Hell, Elminster in Myth Drannor, Making of a Mage, Elminster's Daughter -- am I missing anything?)
The Cormyr trilogy (Vangerdahast)
The Return of the Archwizards trilogy (Galaeron, among others)
Evermeet: Island of Elves (Amlaruil's a mage, among many, many others)
The Last Mythal trilogy (Araevin, loads of other mages)
The City of Ravens
(You can argue that some of these are sorcerers rather than wizards, but in novels, I generally don't see that much of a difference. Sorcerers just don't need to study and memorize.)
Where wizards are secondary characters/prominent-but-not-sole-protagonist and/or antagonists:
The Rogue Dragons trilogy (Sammaster)
The Shattered Mask (antagonist; can't remember his name)
Stormlight (the antagonist uses arcane magic, I think, and Storm herself doesn't really behave like a bard, but a wizard)
The Best of Ed Greenwood
Realms of the Arcane
Realms of Magic
Realms of the Underdark
Realms of Shadows
Realms of the Elves
Red Magic
The Simbul's Gift
Azure Bonds
Sands of the Soul
Crimson Gold
Lord of Stormweather
Threat from the Sea trilogy (Sabr... Sabrena, or something. Whatever the name of that generic designated love interest was; lord, but she annoyed me)
Waterdeep: City of Splendors
Shandril's Saga (pretty much all the antagonists are mages of some sort, as well as some secondary characters. Oh, and portable doormat Narm)
So that's... well, a lot of novels. I'm sure I've neglected to mention loads, and could go on forever if I were to list all novels where wizards have major parts. Even Drizzt novels have some: Alustriel and the Harpell something, despite the author's tendency to downplay magic in order to make the swordspeople look better. Overdone, yes, but it seems almost no FR novel comes without at least a minor arcane spellcaster of some kind anyway. |
Edited by - Winterfox on 17 Feb 2006 22:20:43 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2006 : 22:48:05
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| The Realms are a highly magical place. It only makes sense to have a lot of people running around, using magic. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2006 : 00:53:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Realms are a highly magical place. It only makes sense to have a lot of people running around, using magic.
And thus, it makes sense for us to hear about their adventures and why their stories are almost always entertaining reading.
Wizards, as a class are an integral part of the Realms -- and the Realms as "a highly magical place" -- is the background upon which we see and read about them.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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riverc0il
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2006 : 02:22:30
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| i think you would be hard pressed to form an adventuring party without a magician. they would need to utilize some sort of magic to counter a wizard's attacks as invariably it would seem hard for an adventuring party to never meet wizards. even in city politics, wizards would be needed for various defenses and controls. seems like wizards are very much a part of the realms, i am more puzzled by novels that don't contain any than a seeming abundence of them. |
-steve |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2006 : 04:01:21
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Remember it is a fantasy world. if a party was composed of state workers, engineers, and project managers, it would be friday night out with the guys instead of D&D. Give us more wizards, their more fun  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2006 : 04:29:31
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
Remember it is a fantasy world. if a party was composed of state workers, engineers, and project managers, it would be friday night out with the guys instead of D&D.
Ah, but think of what those guys could do to a dungeon, given enough time, money, and equipment...  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Smyther
Learned Scribe
Canada
121 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2006 : 18:29:22
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Extreme Makeover: Dungeon Edition!
For all your deepest dungeon desires, from moldy floors to rusty shackles, stocking you with the best of the best monsters, including the notorious orc and chest! Call now and we'll even arrange a dungeonwarming party with our friend Balagos the Flying Flame and catered by THO in a maid costume!
I don't know about you, but I think MY dungeon could use a little eviling up!
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
Remember it is a fantasy world. if a party was composed of state workers, engineers, and project managers, it would be friday night out with the guys instead of D&D.
Ah, but think of what those guys could do to a dungeon, given enough time, money, and equipment...
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So sayeth the Smyther, the Dark Bard of Amn. |
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Koushiro
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2006 : 20:55:58
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| Yes, the realms is a very magical place, but I have read in numourous places that wizards as a whole are relativly rare and yet it seems that almost every village the books visit has a wizard of some sort(okay, I may be exagerating by just a little, but still) and every party seems to run into some evil wizard or a wizard that will help them. It seems to me that while wizards are soppised to be relativly uncommen in the FR the books just keep bringing them in at almost every corner sometimes. Oh and you also forgot the nether scroll for a book that has wizards as the main characters(sorry ranting, but it's just a little peeve of mine that wizards seem to have so much coverage while some clases, like monks, get hardly any). |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2006 : 21:13:55
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| I dunno. I don't find them that uncommon and they have the 2nd highest among of NPC's between fighters, clerics, wizards, and thieves. Wizards also have the most 21st+ NPC's vs the three other classes combinued, according to my 1e and 2e NPC list. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 01:48:12
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| Wizards may be rare in reference to the overall population, but a reading of D&D lore in general and FR lore in particular seems to indicate that they're well represented in the fields of government, soldiering, treasure hunting, and crime. In other words, the sorts of endeavors that fantasy adventure novels tend to focus on. So perhaps it's not too surprising that they turn up in FR fiction pretty often. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 02:00:40
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Yes the ones that survive find their niches. Wizards, and other d4 hit point character classes have a very hard time advancing in games at early levels (OK many classes have hard time advancing from low level, but lower hit points more so). It becomes hard to write about a Wiz one taking out an Orc with sleep or other first level spell, before the rest of them slash up the unarmored body. The Wiz only becomes realy noticable at all if able to cast 3rd level spells (though the orc hord could still over run him).
I do not have a good sense of if 3.X Wiz has been more balanced to other classes (have not played enough) , but indications I get are the same as prior rditions. A Wiz is too weak at low levels and too powerful at high levels. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 03:22:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Koushiro
Yes, the realms is a very magical place, but I have read in numourous places that wizards as a whole are relativly rare and yet it seems that almost every village the books visit has a wizard of some sort(okay, I may be exagerating by just a little, but still) and every party seems to run into some evil wizard or a wizard that will help them.
Well, yeah... But for the one wizard in that town, how many non-wizards are there? 20? 50? 100 or more?
Wizards are noticable because they stand out -- that's why there seems to be so many of them. No one pays attention to the farmers, ropemakers, tailors and porters: they are the mundane, everyday folk. Wizards, though... Wizards are flashy and larger than life. When you've got 10 guys over here, and over there is 1 guy who can kill the 10 by waving his hands and speaking gibberish, who do you pay attention to?
I just opened my FRA, flipping to a random city: Scornubel. The city has a regular, non-transient population of 12,500 people. Of those, there are three "Notable Mages" listed, at levels 12, 9, and 15. There's a W6 listed elsewhere, and the eye and hand of a dead wizard are often seen wandering around town. That's 5 wizards out of 12,500 people -- that's a fraction of a percentage point. Sure, they stand out more than most of the other Scornubians, but they are seriously outnumbered. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Feb 2006 03:23:27 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 04:04:55
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However, I THINK I can still get into that maid costume.
Oh, well, if I can't, I guess we'll need a wizard to provide a little magical help.
On or off, as it were.
love,
THO |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 06:43:33
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
However, I THINK I can still get into that maid costume.
Oh, well, if I can't, I guess we'll need a wizard to provide a little magical help.
On or off, as it were.
love,
THO
I'd be more than happy to help you remove the maid costume, my lady. Or at least certain parts of the costume... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 22:58:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Wizards are noticable because they stand out -- that's why there seems to be so many of them. No one pays attention to the farmers, ropemakers, tailors and porters: they are the mundane, everyday folk.
True, but that doesn't mean a novel about them can't be interesting. One reason I enjoy Ed Greenwood's work is because he does pay attention to "the little people" in his world.
As for wizards...I love wizards. I'm sure I'll devour every novel in the Wizards series (and come on, one novel is about Khelben!). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2006 : 01:36:07
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Wooly, dearest: you're only too welcome to help me with that. But you must use only your teeth.
LOVE,
THO |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2006 : 13:28:12
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Let me rephrase my question, because I can see how I went the wrong way with it.
Do Realms novels focus more on wizards than any other class? Are we seeing a lot more spellslingers than we are lockpicks, warriors, clerics, barbarians, etc?
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"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2006 : 14:04:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
Let me rephrase my question, because I can see how I went the wrong way with it.
Do Realms novels focus more on wizards than any other class? Are we seeing a lot more spellslingers than we are lockpicks, warriors, clerics, barbarians, etc?
It depends on the books, really... The Drizzt books are really short on wizards, while wizards are all over the place in the Counselors & Kings trilogy. Most books that feature wizards show the wizard as a part of a group, with most of the other characters being something other than wizards.
Look at the books about Alias, for example (excluding The Wyvern's Spur). In books 1 and 3 of the Finder's Stone trilogy, you've got Grypht, Zhara, and Akabar bel Akash as the only three wizardly main characters. Elminster, Cassana, and Zrie Prakis are also in there, but in smaller roles. Meanwhile, you've got Alias, Dragonbait, Olive Ruskettle, Finder, Breck Orcsbane, Phalse, Mist, and Kyre as non-wizard main characters. Two-thirds of the main characters are non-wizards. In Masquerades, the only wizard was Mintassan, and everyone else was a thief or swordswinger.
Again, while wizards tend to be the noticable ones, I don't feel there is a preponderance of them in the novels, as a whole. Certain novels, yes, but as a whole, no. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 21 Feb 2006 14:16:32 |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2006 : 14:37:16
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So would you feel that there is a fair balance of representation of all the 'primary' classes is FR books?
Just IMO, I could care less about class distribution, or classes at all, for that matter, at least as far as representation in novels. I could be very happy not knowing what level Elminster or Storm are, or what classes they really have. Even in gameplay I wouldn't blink twice if Old El tossed out a Flamestrike or other higher level priestly spell. But in novels I'm very lenient.
I like wizards (and sorcerers as well) and enjoy reading about them (and I am eagerly looking forward to the Wizards series), I'm just curious if anyone thinks that arcane spellcasters are TOO visible in the realms.
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"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2006 : 16:42:22
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I do.
I'd rather see more of the other classes, especially rangers and or druids and bards. As I said, the NPC list I made has wizards as the second highest in stat'd classes but it has the most 21st+ NPC's even if you combine the 21st+ fighters, rogues, and clerics together.
So, there are a lot of high level wizards out there and I'd rather read some novels that involve more clerics, rangers, or druids, to repeat myself. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 21 Feb 2006 17:09:06 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2006 : 16:52:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I'd rather see more of the other classes, especially rangers and or druids and bards.
I'd agree with that also -- especially bards, given my musical background and all. I was so overwhelmed with excitement when I learned a bardic-like tale would be included in the Halls of Stormweather anthology... that evil-composer  .
quote:
...I'd rather read some novels that involve more clerics, rangers, or druids, to repeat myself. :)
Druids are another class I could stand to read more about... especially with regard to some of the more esoteric orders or druidic organisations that haven't received a particular amount of attention in the Realmslore -- those that exist as off-hand references for example.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 21 Feb 2006 16:53:54 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2006 : 00:20:26
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Yes, bards...I love bards and I'd love to see more of them.  |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2006 : 01:46:39
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin, THANK you for this:
One reason I enjoy Ed Greenwood's work is because he does pay attention to "the little people" in his world.
I've always felt this, and it's great to hear someone else saying it.
I, too, love bards (and really-well-played thieves, and hey, hunky rangers, too), and would like to see more of them in Realms fiction.
Ed and I once discussed this, and he said he loved putting in scenes of merchants bitching and gossiping and wheeling-dealing, as well as lots of "just plain folks" scenes . . . and editors just LOVED taking them out.
We get to see lots of spellcasters hurling spells because it sells, and the editors tell certain writers (the "biddable" ones, like Ed) to write more, more, and more of it.
love,
THO |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2006 : 02:12:05
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You're welcome--I only speak the truth. It's something I've noticed about Ed's work (he and Elaine Cunningham also pay attention to normal people in the Waterdeep novel, which is a major reason why I liked the book so much).
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 03:50:19
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It's difficult balancing high fantasy and low and being able to bring in the widest audience.
As THO points out, when Ed gets tapped out they want El or the Simbul laying waste to Hell or some other villains. I actually prefer the interplay he drops in around Storm's kitchen table far more than I enjoy reading about another dozen monsters destroyed by a twinned fireball.
I also enjoy a good swashbuckling story where the hero's completely out of his/her league and barely making it by through bravado and quick thinking. These stories are usually reserved for rogues, bards, and yes... hunky rangers. Of course Ed gave us a few of these with El in the Shadow of the Avatar series.
Sarta |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 14:35:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarta
As THO points out, when Ed gets tapped out they want El or the Simbul laying waste to Hell or some other villains. I actually prefer the interplay he drops in around Storm's kitchen table far more than I enjoy reading about another dozen monsters destroyed by a twinned fireball.
Me too. Those scenes are just have a nice human quality to them. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Too Many Wizards??
