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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Sep 2005 : 02:36:59
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I agree, KEJR.
I think these books were meant to stay on par with showing that Gold Elves are much more than the ruthless power-hungry bastards they have been shown to be in many recent novels. I think that this book was supposed to help re-align the Gold Elves to what the majority of them act like.
Not every Gold Elf is a Vhoori Moonflower and not every Moon Elf is a Amlaruil. We have seen tons of different types/alignments of all elves throughout novelization. I think this book just focuses on Araevin's love of the Art - and his secondary love for all things else, even Ilselve (sp).
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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jameslt0
Seeker
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2005 : 03:20:40
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I just thought of something, Araevin is a Sun Elf Mage. I am unsure has to what levels he has in what. It may not matter. However, he is said to wear mail shirt, but no where in the book does it talk about arcane failure. Any thoughts on this?
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2005 : 03:46:43
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Well... you have to remember that the novelists generally try to add a flavor of the game system to their books and not let them override it. If we had to worry about Araevin casting every spell, it might become quite taxing on us readers. If you want to see game rules go right out the door, read the Return of the Archwizards series.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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jameslt0
Seeker
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2005 : 05:02:49
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| My only concern with game rules is this, I thought elves created armor that was suppose to not have any effect, or little effect on spell casting, for example, Elven Chainmail? Yet, I can't find anywhere that says the arcane failure is less for Elven Chainmail than Regular Chainmail. |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2005 : 14:34:58
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It's in the DMG, under the specific armor item list - it describes all the benefits of Elven Chain - arcane spell failure of 20%. Plus, the book is probably referring to a Mithral Shirt, which has just an arcane spell failure of 10%. However, I still don't think the whole spell failure thing was a major issue in this book.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2005 : 14:55:52
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And, to bring up that work that Crennen mentioned earlier, there is a Dragon Magazine article that details the characters from the Return of the ArchWizards books that lists an armor property that was elven in nature that allowed for no arcane spell failure, though I'm not sure what it was called, nor the actual issue of Dragon. I do remember that Galaeron armor was suppose to be of this type.
Also, I seem to remember certain feats that could limit arcane spell failure as well, but since I just got back from walking the dog I'm in poor shape to trundle over to the bookshelf and double check, lol. |
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jameslt0
Seeker
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2005 : 18:15:57
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I have looked at the book again, when Araevin puts on the mail shirt. This is in the 1st book. It is a shirt of mithral mail and the author states "which was so light it scarcely interfered with even the most difficult spellcasting. All I am going to say is this, wouldn't it add to the suspence of the story if the hero suffers arcane failure from critical spell do to wearin armor? I do see places where being hit or some other event breaks someone's concentration and they are unable to cast a spell. Just my thoughts.
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2005 : 22:12:05
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True, but it would only add suspense if we knew it could happen, or it had happened before in the trilogy. I think that it was mentioned more just to hail the elves as wonderful craftsmen who could make things like that mentioned.
And you are right, if you wrote a very rules based novel, you could very well have him fail some spells, but not many of want to hear the dice roll when we are reading a book. 
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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jameslt0
Seeker
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2005 : 02:38:21
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Oh, I don't believe it should happen all the time. Just at one point, when it REALLY matters, the hero suffers the loss of important spell. It has happen before with breaking of concentration. In my opinion, concentration failure is very common in novels. If that is the case, arcane failure could also explain why the hero was unable to cast a much needed spell. The same could be true for the villian as well. I think there are multiple instances in The Last Mythal books where concentration failure played a roll in someone being unable to cast a spell.
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2005 : 16:00:21
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Oh, I agree with that, but that is more easily written into a book. When you read that the wizard tries to recall the ancient gestures but the din of the battle drowns out his own thoughts, you buy it.
But how would it sound if you said, then the hero tried to perform his last somatic gesture but the ring in his mithral shirt was caught and prevented him.
I think the first example sounds much better, but my opinion, that's all.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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jameslt0
Seeker
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2005 : 21:20:08
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LOL! Well, something like this would work. The hero was casting a spell that would rid Faerun of all Zhents. His arms moving it precise, rythmic motions. Then, his arm, due to his mithral shirt, was unable to make a critical guesture and all Zhents everyone found themselves completely naked.
I have my own flair for humor. It would make it much easier to spot a Zhentil spy. I would how Fzoul would feel about this.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2005 : 04:41:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
quote:
Is this romance poorly written...or is the author trying to sublty tell us that there really is no romance between them anymore? That's food for thought, and I never expected it.
Well, the flat characterization of practically everyone may well be a subtle message of... something, but I fail to see the purpose behind making an entire cast intentionally stilted and paper-thin. How optimistic are you? :p (I'm not very. But hey.)
Truth be told, I try to give authors the benefit of the doubt. Maybe the Ilsevele/Araevin romance isn't well written, but then again I don't find them to be captivating characters to begin with. Same applies to Starbrow Melruth--is he just an incredibly flatly written character, or is Baker trying to tell me that "Fflar" is a person like everyone else, one of many heroes of Myth Drannor, and happened to be aggrandized by history? I may be reading into it more than I should, I don't want to say that I haven't considered all possiblities (even if Fflar is "normal", he could still be a lot more interesting).
quote:
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One last thing: I'm gratful that Baker left out Methrammar Aerasume, Gaeradh, and their cringe-inducing, nausea-inducing romanctic dialogue. That alone brings the book up several notches on the enjoyment level.
And that part makes me rather pessimistic about the theory of any hint that Araevin and Ilsevele have never loved each other all that much. There's already one bad romance; why not another?
True; I've found none of the romances in this series to be very compelling, but I still have to give Baker credit for the scene on the ship--it was well written and insightful. If only the rest of the novel had that kind of emotional pull, then I could truly label it GREAT.
quote:
Originally posted by Crust
LOL... You know, I see your point here. On the other hand, this situation made me laugh because I took it as, "Look, experienced readers/gamers, this is a "tabletop/pen and paper" moment for you. Good gaming to all!" There's your parody.
True--but while it's funny, it also draws me out of the atmosphere and makes the story less believable. The problem is the book (and series) takes itself so darned seriously otherwise, that I'm less able to forgive the author for being less than subtle about the "quick-switching" of characters. Also, it wouldn't hurt to give Filsaelene and Donnor more vibrant, distinctive personalities!
quote:
I agree. However, Storm is done much better in Farthest Reach than she is in either the Avatar series or the *shudders* Return of the Archwizards books.
I believe it, but in this book she just wasn't her witty, fun-loving self, and I missed that. Even given the circumstances, I wish Storm had been a little less grim.
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Awesome points. I assumed that Maalthiir thought he was safe from Sarya, that she couldn't really do anything to him directly (maybe to his people, but does he care so much about that?).
I assume that Maalthir, while a mean guy and a tyrant (if a Neutral one), must be pretty smart and forward thinking to have gotten a whole city to rely on him, and if he wants to hold onto his power, it's simply not in his best interest to treat his people badly or give them the impression that he couldn't care less about him. At least in this novel he wasn't portrayed as a simpleton (like in Heirs of Prophecy), and he seemed to be onto Sarya, but again he seemed to give her more leeway and trust than would seem logical to me. The Sembians were even worse in this respect. A plot shouldn't have to depend on people acting more stupid than they usually would in order for the story to move along...and to let the BBEG get powerful enough to heighten the drama when the good guy fights her.
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This is SO TRUE! I'm knee-deep in City of Splendors right now, and I'm sitting here saying, "Oop! This is Greenwood!" "Oop! Here's Cunningham!" I did the same thing with Cormyr: A Novel and Death of the Dragon. It's night and day. His style is very unique and, to me, fascinating. No other FR author puts me into Faerun like Greenwood.
Agreed. When I read City of Splendors, I'll probably do the same thing you're doing.
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Originally posted by KnightErrantJR I was thinking about some of the comments about Araevin and how he acts, and his relationship with Ilsevele and the like, and the fact that he generally is very matter of fact about a lot of things, and something occurs to me. This series has been very concerned with portraying sun elves as more than just haughty elf supremisists. It has been really trying to show them as being essentially good, but different from other elves. One of the things that seems to come up is that Moon elves are more diplomatic, Wood elves are more passionate and emotional, and Sun elves are more reserved and aloof.
Well, there were "nice" gold elves in novels and sourcebooks long before this series came along. The problem is that all of the elves (and humans, and everyone else) in this series are flatly written, not just the gold elves, and not just Araevin. We are told that the wood elves like to fool around, but overall the different subraces aren't THAT distinguished from each other. This characters could do more than just state the obvious to each other all the time, What about witty banter?
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 20:13:01
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
I agree, KEJR.
I think these books were meant to stay on par with showing that Gold Elves are much more than the ruthless power-hungry bastards they have been shown to be in many recent novels. I think that this book was supposed to help re-align the Gold Elves to what the majority of them act like.
So this series is about a race (and it's subraces) rather than actual characters? I wouldn't be surprised, though I wouldn't argue that the books succeed even in that respect.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Zelg of Cyric
Acolyte
44 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2005 : 10:37:31
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**********SPECTULATION*************
1)I have a feeling that Zhents will play a major role in the downfall of the daemonfey, maybe evenmore so then Lord Mirirtar's Crusade. It was something about Fzoul's thoughtfulness in his exchange with Scyula when he told her gather the remnants of the army. Myth Drannor is Fzoul's backyard, not Evermeet's. I think Fzoul is more too intellegent to not realize that the deamonfey are a bigger threat then the elves. Especially, with Hillsfar and Sembia, at least temporarilty, out of the picture.
2)I am no expert in the ancient history of the realms, but reading Mr. Baker's comments has got me thinking that maybe the Last Mythal is in Evermeet. It might take an elaborate explanation, but a good deal of time of the series been spent in Evermeet. It is Araevin's and Ilseleve's home. It is under-protected at the momement, and much has been made about that, and if some major catastrophe were to happen there it make the last book more dramatic because the elves might be force to withdraw from their refuge or face near extinction.
3) demon/devil issue. All I can say is that maybe the devils have been disattached from whatever hell they came from for so long that the deep-rooted hatred has weakened to some extent to allow the devils to be somewhat more practical(for lack of a better word). |
"Even before he first walked the world as a mortal, Cyric had the will to resist the random call of Fate and make his own fortune. As his newborn soul stood before the goddesses, he cast a light upon Tymora's silver coin, blinding them to his presence. The deities never saw the coin fall, never settled their wager on Cyric's destiny. Thus was he born into the world without any fate save the one he himself could forge." -- from the Cyrinishad |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2005 : 11:32:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Zelg of Cyric
**********SPECTULATION*************
2)I am no expert in the ancient history of the realms, but reading Mr. Baker's comments has got me thinking that maybe the Last Mythal is in Evermeet. It might take an elaborate explanation, but a good deal of time of the series been spent in Evermeet. It is Araevin's and Ilseleve's home. It is under-protected at the momement, and much has been made about that, and if some major catastrophe were to happen there it make the last book more dramatic because the elves might be force to withdraw from their refuge or face near extinction.
My July 18th post:
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Now this is an interesting tidbit...
Rich Baker, in his Fey'd to Black: Richard Baker Interview talks about the new book. He doesn't offer up a lot of info, except for an interesting bit at the end:
quote:
"The Last Mythal of Aryvandaar isn't Myth Drannor, as some folks have suggested on the message boards," he says. "It's a place called the Nexus in 2nd Edition lore." (The Nexus and the Gatekeeper's Crystal made their appearance in Forgotten Realms roleplaying game sourcebooks back in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical and Hellgate Keep.)
"The Nexus is a meeting-place of portals, a place where thousands of gates come together," Baker explains. "Step into the Nexus, and you can go anywhere you want. The doors in the Nexus are the means by which Malkizid is able to provide Sarya Dlardrageth with so many fiendish creatures for her armies. What Araevin discovers at the end of Farthest Reach is that this work of ancient Aryvandaar wasn't simply a benign construct for facilitating portal-building but instead a 'secret weapon of the Vyshaan lords,' a device intended to win the Crown Wars of 10,000 years ago. It has the potential to wreak untold destruction all across the Realms . . . and the mysterious Malkizid intends to do just that."
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2005 : 13:22:43
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Oh wonderful! The Vyshaan lords were so awesome! And all you people are hating on the Daemonfey... :)
Seriously, thanks for re-posting that Wooly, I must have missed it. Now I am going to be on the edge of my seat until the third book comes out, and that's just not fair. Oh well, doesn't Realms of Elves come out before the final book?
And since you know the sages of this realm seem to know everything, where would one look to find information on this Nexus?
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2005 : 17:29:07
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Page 107 of Volo's Guide to All Things Magical says:
quote:
The key was held by a strange sentinel of the Outlands, known only as the Gatekeeper, who guarded a nexus of gates to a thousand planes and spheres.
I believe that's all of the info to be found in that tome. I've not got Hellgate Keep handy to look thru (I'm on my lunch break, at work). |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 28 Sep 2005 17:30:01 |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2005 : 17:32:26
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Thanks... I'm going to have to go see if I can get thay tome on Ebay. Love collecting all things elven.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2005 : 17:58:30
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Thanks... I'm going to have to go see if I can get thay tome on Ebay. Love collecting all things elven.
C-Fb
Hellgate Keep isn't, but Volo's Guide to All Things Magical is available for free on the Wizards downloads page. (That's how I was able to consult it at work, though I really shouldn't have those files on my hard drive  ) |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2005 : 19:57:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Thanks... I'm going to have to go see if I can get thay tome on Ebay. Love collecting all things elven.
C-Fb
Hellgate Keep isn't, but Volo's Guide to All Things Magical is available for free on the Wizards downloads page. (That's how I was able to consult it at work, though I really shouldn't have those files on my hard drive )
Thanks! Now I just have to wait until I get home from Boston to d/l it... ah, work, that wonderful part of our life! 
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2005 : 21:16:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Zelg of Cyric
**********SPECTULATION*************
1)I have a feeling that Zhents will play a major role in the downfall of the daemonfey, maybe evenmore so then Lord Mirirtar's Crusade. It was something about Fzoul's thoughtfulness in his exchange with Scyula when he told her gather the remnants of the army. Myth Drannor is Fzoul's backyard, not Evermeet's. I think Fzoul is more too intellegent to not realize that the deamonfey are a bigger threat then the elves. Especially, with Hillsfar and Sembia, at least temporarilty, out of the picture.
I agree, although I think it's a bit ridiculous that Maalthiir (sp?) didn't increase the defenses of his city after blowing off Sarya. He knew exactly what Sarya was, so I'd think he would be smart enough not to assume that she would just "let it go" after he blew her off.
But what's really absurd is just how easily the daemonfey took over Myth Drannor. So easy, apparently, there were barely more than a few sentences there to describe it. Apparently, the only real trouble came from dispatching a few errant adventuring parties.
Yeah, right. If it were so easy to take over Myth Drannor, how come no one up until now has ever managed to do it before? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2005 : 23:03:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
But what's really absurd is just how easily the daemonfey took over Myth Drannor. So easy, apparently, there were barely more than a few sentences there to describe it. Apparently, the only real trouble came from dispatching a few errant adventuring parties.
Yeah, right. If it were so easy to take over Myth Drannor, how come no one up until now has ever managed to do it before?
This is what I asked and it still bothers me. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2005 : 23:28:29
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| I'm bugged by that, too. Bands of adventurers, drow, and a temple of Lathander were all brushed aside like they weren't even there... I'll grant that a thousand fey'ri make up an impressive force, but for them to casually conquer the city like that just doesn't work for me. At the least, I would have preferred a few chapters of them fighting to take the city. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2005 : 23:31:24
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| Hm . . . it does make for an interesting back story for an adventuring group based out of Mistledale though . . . |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2005 : 23:38:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm bugged by that, too. Bands of adventurers, drow, and a temple of Lathander were all brushed aside like they weren't even there... I'll grant that a thousand fey'ri make up an impressive force, but for them to casually conquer the city like that just doesn't work for me. At the least, I would have preferred a few chapters of them fighting to take the city.
They didn't destroy the Drows.. but something was said about them being occupied by internal problems.
Look at the Lathander's temple info that can be found in 2e Myth Drannor accessory, nothing there to stop Sarya's forces.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2005 : 23:41:40
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Spoilers (Highlight)
The implication is that Halisstra had come back from the Abyss as whatever she is now and started her new career harassing drow that don't properly worship Lolth. |
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jameslt0
Seeker
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2005 : 02:25:32
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| It could be with that the Fey'ri are that helped them move into Myth Drannor so easily. |
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Zelg of Cyric
Acolyte
44 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2005 : 07:42:00
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| I think if Sarya and her minions were able to teleport in and take over the Mythal quickly enough, so that she could summon even more minions, I don't think her prospective enemies would be quick to rise up against her. She has a pretty powerful and diverse army. Don't forget she has orcs and ogres and trolls too, not just demons, daemonfey, fey'ri, devils, and Yugoloths. |
"Even before he first walked the world as a mortal, Cyric had the will to resist the random call of Fate and make his own fortune. As his newborn soul stood before the goddesses, he cast a light upon Tymora's silver coin, blinding them to his presence. The deities never saw the coin fall, never settled their wager on Cyric's destiny. Thus was he born into the world without any fate save the one he himself could forge." -- from the Cyrinishad |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2005 : 14:00:38
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I thought she ditched all the orcs, ogres, and troll types when she had to flee Myth Glaurglach (sp). I thought she has a pure Fey'ri/Lower Plane denizen army now. I can't remember them fighting any of the humanoid races in the second book. That's why Sarya convinced all of the human armies to move into the area.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2005 : 14:28:37
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| Most of the monsters in Myth Drannor realized that they would be in deep podoo if they attacked the deamonfey, so they stayed hidden. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Farthest Reach (The Last Mythal Book II) Spoilers
