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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 19:06:51
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Thank you all for the warm greetings. I can finally post now that my college experience is over and I have a boring job. :) Allows me just enough to scour the posts here and feel encapsulated with FR knowledge.
I am truly amazed at how much knowledge you guys have about the FR. I have a lot of supplements, 2E and 3/3.5E, but I guess my memory is just not as good!
Anyway, thanks for the greetings! I plan to be around for a while!  |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 03:34:03
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Thank you all for the warm greetings. I can finally post now that my college experience is over and I have a boring job. :) Allows me just enough to scour the posts here and feel encapsulated with FR knowledge.
I am truly amazed at how much knowledge you guys have about the FR. I have a lot of supplements, 2E and 3/3.5E, but I guess my memory is just not as good!
Anyway, thanks for the greetings! I plan to be around for a while!
Aye, welcome to the Keep.
Now here's your quill, see those tomes over there?
<points to a huge stack of tomes, that appears ready to fallover and smother some poor unfortunate soul>
Alaundo, needs them copied and archived by mid-summer's eve
<you notice about a half-dozen or so scribes sneaking out the backdoor> |
News of the Weird
D20 System Reference Document
D20 Modern System Reference Document
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 07:02:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Wizards has decided to share the Waterdeep Map Gallery with us. 
With the several in-campaign changes I'd have to make to these maps, I can definitely see them being used extensively as gaming aids when my Waterdeep campaign resumes in September !!!
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 07:55:42
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Wizards has decided to share the Waterdeep Map Gallery with us.
With the several in-campaign changes I'd have to make to these maps, I can definitely see them being used extensively as gaming aids when my Waterdeep campaign resumes in September !!!
I wonder if we could get WOTC to blow them up like they did the Undermountain maps, so we could print the wards as poster maps..... |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 11:19:10
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| I'm lucky when it comes to maps of Waterdeep. I've got the City System boxed set, and I managed to get from eBay a second complete set of the maps from that box. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 12:43:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm lucky when it comes to maps of Waterdeep. I've got the City System boxed set, and I managed to get from eBay a second complete set of the maps from that box.
And would you write notes or mark campaign locations on those maps?
I suspect not, you would however do it to a map you could replace at anytime and print off as many copies as you want........ |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 13:13:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
I wonder if we could get WOTC to blow them up like they did the Undermountain maps, so we could print the wards as poster maps.....
That would be nice.
Thanks WR for posting this update.
SB |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 14:49:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm lucky when it comes to maps of Waterdeep. I've got the City System boxed set, and I managed to get from eBay a second complete set of the maps from that box.
I've actually got access to three copies of City System myself -- a set I managed to purchase when they were first released, another given to me as a gift, and the third is the Lady K's copy  .
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Sgain
Acolyte
Canada
32 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 17:07:43
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I am just not too crazy about the maps; the scale is really wonky, 1000' per cm, means that the market place is about 500' wide and over 1500' long! Thats huge!!! Trafalger Square in London is 300' by 300' (judging by this scale ; Click here
This means that the market is much to large, and most of the buildings shown to the north of the market as having facings that are between 80' and 100' across! Thats huge! When I compare the scale to my home town I see that 3 city blocks is less than 1000' (for Victoria BC, in the downtown core where building fronts are much larger than in residential areas where the lot sizes are larger than the houses). Unless the map represents building lots and not actual buildings that is; then its even more confusing as how does one show where actual buildings are? This was one of the first things I noticed when I looked at CoS as I usually run rogue groups and knowing specific information about buildings (and their surrounding buildings) is very important.
The WoTC released maps are pretty much a blurry representation of a poorly defined city structure. I can't see how anyone could expect to use them in a game unless they were just using them as an overview. Which is the same problem I had with the ones in the CoS book.
Thinking in terms of the actual scale of the city it is difficult to imagine having any detail (due to the poorly thought out size of the layout), but this makes it even more important that someone actually sits down and figures out specific details such as the actual width of the streets (which seems to be in excess of 50' in most areas!!).
One thing I've always noticed in representations of medieval cities is how cluttered and confusing there were; they were not laid out in precise fashion and the streets wound around buildings and other landmarks and structures, the roads are narrow and confusing and not much wider than a wagon (about 8-10') on secondary streets and maybe 2 wagons on a main street.
In terms of gaming and maps; in the over 25 years that I've been gaming I've found specific concise information on maps to be very important to my game design and for my players to get a better idea of what they are facing. As the years and products have rolled past I've noticed that rather than using better designs for city maps, most game companies are actually getting worse at it, and CoS pretty much falls into this catagory. The scale alone shows that the designers did not even do a simple comparison to their city design against a modern city, or worse, look at a medieval one to compare it too (I'm sure we could dig up maps of Cambridge or something without too much work).
Perhaps they did a better job with the maps in one of these beforementioned products, but again, this discussion is supposed to be about the City of Splendors book and not one of its forerunners.
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Wanna play online? Try out Klooge! www.kloogeinc.com
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 17:14:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm lucky when it comes to maps of Waterdeep. I've got the City System boxed set, and I managed to get from eBay a second complete set of the maps from that box.
And would you write notes or mark campaign locations on those maps?
I suspect not, you would however do it to a map you could replace at anytime and print off as many copies as you want........
Actually, I was thinking I could keep one set in pristine condition, and laminate the other set. Then I could mark it up with a dry-erase marker and then later wipe it clean. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2005 : 02:36:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm lucky when it comes to maps of Waterdeep. I've got the City System boxed set, and I managed to get from eBay a second complete set of the maps from that box.
And would you write notes or mark campaign locations on those maps?
I suspect not, you would however do it to a map you could replace at anytime and print off as many copies as you want........
Actually, I was thinking I could keep one set in pristine condition, and laminate the other set. Then I could mark it up with a dry-erase marker and then later wipe it clean.
Why not... That's how I did it  .
After all, with the few changes I've made to the city layout itself, it becomes necessary to have maps available for the PCs which detail the current state of the City of Splendors.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2005 : 05:41:54
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Having a big map of Waterdeep gives me an evil idea
While the party are resting in their rooms in the Singing Sword inn on Bazaar street they hear a knock on the door, when they open it they find a young boy who hands one of the PCs an envelope. Inside the envelope is a short message
"Greetings I may have a job for you
Get the Paypho- Horse Trough on corner of Calamastyr Lane and Gothal Street in the Castle Ward, youve got 5 minutes"
When they search the Horse Trough they find another letter hidden under it which reads
"Get to the East side of Heros Park. youve got 10 minutes"
They find another note pinned to a tree in the park, the Note reads
"Get to Virgins square in the Trade ward youve got seven minutes"
Upon reaching Virgins square they find another note
"Get to the Hidden Blade Inn on Adder Lane in Dock Ward its 5 buildings down from the corner of Adder Lane and Watrel Alley meet me inside, Ask for the owner, youve got 12 minutes"
If you know who the PCs will be meeting (Without checking any source books)then you can have a cookie
Thats right its Grand Theft Eqiutine: Waterdeep |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 24 Jun 2005 05:48:13 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2005 : 11:24:09
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| A question: I saw a single reference to the elven pantheon temple. But that was it, just that one reference. Anyone know where it is? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2005 : 00:17:57
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Oh I almost forgot to ask
Any mention of a certain Arch Devil razing half of Waterdeep in CoS or a drow invasion of Undermoutain? |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2005 : 01:03:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Oh I almost forgot to ask
Any mention of a certain Arch Devil razing half of Waterdeep in CoS or a drow invasion of Undermoutain?
You never give it up, ever, do you? And before you comment, note that I've said the puter games are mostly noncanon. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 13:23:45
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My fellow scribe Sgain,
I have not seen the maps in the CoS sourcebook, but I assumed that the ones published on the WotC website are the same ones. First of all, I personally like the way the maps look - they are very visual, which, as a graphic designer, is very important for me. They also seem to be "on scale" with all of the previously published maps of Waterdeep (at least at the first glance).
I think you make a huge mistake in comparing Waterdeep with our "real world" medieval cities. Please bear in mind that we are now talking about a fantasy world, not about Europe during the Middle Ages. I think London, or Cambridge, just *might* look a bit different, if there had been British Arcanists some thousands of years ago, hey? London might even now be located on top of a floating mountain (if there had been no british equivalent to Karsus, of course )
My point is, that magic is quite plentiful in the Realms, and I think it has affected also architecture and city planning/design a lot. Think of all those spells to assist in building and shaping. There are also other races/species that humans have learned from, and "civilization" has existed far longer than it has in our world. So many glorious kingdoms of men, dwarves and elves have existed in the Realms, none of which could be compared properlu to any "empire" in our Earth. There may be more natural resources in the Realms, more coin to spend, and maybe people just "think bigger"?
So the Waterdeep market place is larger than the Trafalgar Square? Why is it a problem - have you seen the size of the market places atop Netheril's enclaves?
As to the scale of the streets and roads, I think it may also have something to do with the actual size of the map - if they were exactly the right size, you probably wouldn't be able to see them on a map this size.
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"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 15:34:40
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Oh I almost forgot to ask
Any mention of a certain Arch Devil razing half of Waterdeep in CoS or a drow invasion of Undermoutain?
Last I heard of the All of the Computer Games that have came out since WotC took over from TSR are NOT Canon.
Kuje is right most of the computer games are not canon but some of the elements are...for example the release of Baldur's Gate in 1998, a bit after WOTC took over TSR, some of the game elements are sprinkled in 'canon' material and even some of the designers here in Candlekeep mention the Bhaalspawn...but 'canon' is what you make it. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 20:42:26
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| I never considered anything in the video games canon. A little speck, a sentence or two, even a paragraph doesn't make it canon IMHO. Considering WOTC tendency or lack there of consideration or care for continuity, I could care less what they think about games. For me, the video games and their OVER THE TOP stories, are no more canon then my DM's campaigns. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 02:22:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Oh I almost forgot to ask
Any mention of a certain Arch Devil razing half of Waterdeep in CoS or a drow invasion of Undermoutain?
Last I heard of the All of the Computer Games that have came out since WotC took over from TSR are NOT Canon.
Kuje is right most of the computer games are not canon but some of the elements are...for example the release of Baldur's Gate in 1998, a bit after WOTC took over TSR, some of the game elements are sprinkled in 'canon' material and even some of the designers here in Candlekeep mention the Bhaalspawn...but 'canon' is what you make it.
From another scroll -
quote:
Are the Baldur’s Gate novels canon?
Yes because WOTC lists them taking place in 1368 and 1369. Also the characters from the novels were stat’d up in Dragon issue 262 in 2e and there is a Bhaalspawn template for 3e in Dragon issue #288. Ed wrote a sourcebook that goes with the novels. Also Jim Butler answered this question in 2000 on the FR mailing list. Furthermore, the author of the last novel said this:
<Ulairi> <Howdy> Are the BG games considered canon Forgotten Realms history by WotC?
<Drew2_Bio> Because of our multiple endings, the BG games can't be considered "official" in the FR world. However, the novels (including the upcoming TOB novel - another free plug for me!) are considered canon.
And also, the bhaalspawn are mentioned in LEoF. So they are "officially" recognised as part of the canon Realms.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 02:40:03
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
From another scroll -
And also, the bhaalspawn are mentioned in LEoF. So they are "officially" recognised as part of the canon Realms.
Wow, someone read my FAQ. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 02:58:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
From another scroll -
And also, the bhaalspawn are mentioned in LEoF. So they are "officially" recognised as part of the canon Realms.
Wow, someone read my FAQ. :)
I've kept it handy, yes .
As I said over at WotC, I'm presently putting together an FR FAQ for another forum I visit. Like you, I'm finding myself growing tired of sometimes posting URLs, or basic Realmslore that pops up in question format so often that it just makes it easier to have an FAQ listing for posters to refer to.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 08:44:33
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
The only games that were "100% Canon" as far as I can recall are the old Gold Box games that SSI had put out. Pool of Radiance, Curse of the Azure Bonds, Secret of the Silver Blades, and one other, can't remember the name of the last one in the series.
Pools of Darkness |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 09:32:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
The only games that were "100% Canon" as far as I can recall are the old Gold Box games that SSI had put out. Pool of Radiance, Curse of the Azure Bonds, Secret of the Silver Blades, and one other, can't remember the name of the last one in the series.
Pools of Darkness
Thanks |
News of the Weird
D20 System Reference Document
D20 Modern System Reference Document
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 10:07:06
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
As I said over at WotC, I'm presently putting together an FR FAQ for another forum I visit. Like you, I'm finding myself growing tired of sometimes posting URLs, or basic Realmslore that pops up in question format so often that it just makes it easier to have an FAQ listing for posters to refer to.
Well met
Ahem, anything ye can share with us here in the humble old library, Sage? |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 14:19:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
As I said over at WotC, I'm presently putting together an FR FAQ for another forum I visit. Like you, I'm finding myself growing tired of sometimes posting URLs, or basic Realmslore that pops up in question format so often that it just makes it easier to have an FAQ listing for posters to refer to.
Well met
Ahem, anything ye can share with us here in the humble old library, Sage?
Actually, the other forum is Worlds . I'll have to remind Strahd.
I can send it your way as well when I'm done. It's similar to Kuje's on the WotC FR boards, but I've elaborated on certain parts and added other FAQ that have popped up elsewhere. I even went ahead and checked the FR FAQ already posted on the mainsite, to see what I could add to Tom Cullen's previous efforts.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 29 Jun 2005 14:20:45 |
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Keravin
Seeker
50 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 16:46:00
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| Can I just say how much I enjoyed the book. I didn't expect to get much out of it after owning all the previous books, but it's a great addition to Waterdeep and I look forward to delving more into it. Even though I'm currently running more stuff in Sigil I at least got a new NPC to bring to the Planes. |
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ode904
Learned Scribe
Finland
193 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2005 : 22:26:29
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| Yes nice work. Im eagerly waiting to read it if i can |
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City of Splendors: Waterdeep sourcebook
