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BiggusGeekus
Acolyte
2 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 23:00:25
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My author-fu is weak. I yearn to know the most basic of knowledge.
When submitting a double-spaced proposal, the dialogue lines look like they are freaky distant. I tend to be dialogue heavy, so I end up submitting lots of blank paper. So is dialogue:
1)"That zombie can track the villian even though he has no nose!"
"No nose? How does he smell?"
"Awful!"
2)"That zombie can track the villian even though he has no nose!"
"No nose? How does he smell?"
"Awful!"
3)"That zombie can track the villian even though he has no nose!"
"No nose? How does he smell?"
"Awful!"
#3 is what I get when I type a "normal" document and press the magic Word double-space button. Now, I find it hard to believe that Microsoft would release anything other than a sublime product, however some confirmation would be nice.
Thanks in advance!
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Sebastrd
Acolyte
28 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 23:19:32
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| I believe hitting shift+enter will skip one line instead of two. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 23:58:34
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I think your problem is you're typing blank lines between paragraphs (like a web page), when in fact new paragraphs should be indicated with a paragraph indent of about 1". So your double-spaced dialogue should look like #2 but with the first line of each paragraph indented.
Unless US publishing works differently from UK and I never noticed. |
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BiggusGeekus
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 00:28:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I think your problem is you're typing blank lines between paragraphs (like a web page), when in fact new paragraphs should be indicated with a paragraph indent of about 1". So your double-spaced dialogue should look like #2 but with the first line of each paragraph indented.
Unless US publishing works differently from UK and I never noticed.
Gotcha! Thanks! |
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Erin Tettensor
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 09:42:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I think your problem is you're typing blank lines between paragraphs (like a web page), when in fact new paragraphs should be indicated with a paragraph indent of about 1". So your double-spaced dialogue should look like #2 but with the first line of each paragraph indented.
Unless US publishing works differently from UK and I never noticed.
You're exactly right, and no -- US publishing isn't different in that respect. Manuscripts are not like business letters or academic papers. Instead of putting a space between paragraphs (or dialogue), an indent is appropriate.
Here's another trick: don't use spaces for section breaks. To indicate the passage of time, a change in point of view, or a new chapter, simply centre a number sign (#). An industry-standard manuscript does not contain spaces of any kind, but more importantly for a Wizards submission (which does not conform in many ways), it saves you precious space! |
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Kameron M. Franklin
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 17:53:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Zyx
Here's another trick: don't use spaces for section breaks. To indicate the passage of time, a change in point of view, or a new chapter, simply centre a number sign (#). An industry-standard manuscript does not contain spaces of any kind, but more importantly for a Wizards submission (which does not conform in many ways), it saves you precious space!
Just an FYI for those interested in some WotC specifics related to this, but according to their style guide, section breaks should be designated by using 5 asterisks center-aligned with 3 spaces between each asterisk. A single line of space should separate the break from the paragraphs above and below it.  |
"You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." --Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride |
Edited by - Kameron M. Franklin on 13 Jul 2004 17:54:59 |
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Erin Tettensor
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 18:10:40
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quote:
Just an FYI for those interested in some WotC specifics related to this, but according to their style guide, section breaks should be designated by using 5 asterisks center-aligned with 3 spaces between each asterisk. A single line of space should separate the break from the paragraphs above and below it.
Is that in the submissions guidelines, Kameron? I know it's in the style guidelines at the back of our contracts, but I'm pretty sure that's just to make it as easy as possible to convert the manuscript so it's ready for press.
My point was not really the number sign itself -- both this and asterisks are standard in the industry, as I'm sure you know. I only meant that if you use a centered symbol of some kind, it's not necessary to use a precious line (or two!) of space to start a new section. When it comes to such cosmetic details, I'd be very surprised if Wizards cared much what format you use at the proposal stage. They didn't seem to mind in my work, anyway! |
Edited by - Erin Tettensor on 13 Jul 2004 19:41:38 |
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Kameron M. Franklin
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 23:42:45
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You're probably right. I guess I'm just one of those guys who says "How high?" when asked to jump by the folks who think my stuff is worthy of print.  |
"You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." --Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 01:19:07
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Learn one standard manuscript format and you can use it forever, no matter what market you're submitting to. It may be in that in the publisher's perfect world, every writer would indicate a scene break with five centered asterisks, but no editor is going to give you grief if you do it with one, or with a number sign.
Or at least no editor has ever addressed such a trivial detail with me. |
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brjr2001
Learned Scribe
106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 01:48:59
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try shift enter
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on second thought lets not go to candlekeep it is a silly place |
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James P. Davis
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
244 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 09:19:19
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quote:
Learn one standard manuscript format and you can use it forever, no matter what market you're submitting to. It may be in that in the publisher's perfect world, every writer would indicate a scene break with five centered asterisks, but no editor is going to give you grief if you do it with one, or with a number sign.
Or at least no editor has ever addressed such a trivial detail with me.
Very true Richard, in the end one's use of separating scenes or chapters should be the last thing an editor notices. If the writing is quality work, the final format details can be worked out later. |
"Everybody is a book of blood; wherever we're opened, we're red."--Clive Barker
FR: RotD2:"Possessions"
Wizards:Bloodwalk
Citadels: The Shield of Weeping Ghosts
Wilds: The Restless Shore
Ed Greenwood Presents Waterdeep: Circle of Skulls (May 2010)
Book trailers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC-ska7ohVk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfvFdQ8bLp0 |
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Erin Tettensor
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 12:25:31
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quote:
Originally posted by James P. Davis
Very true Richard, in the end one's use of separating scenes or chapters should be the last thing an editor notices. If the writing is quality work, the final format details can be worked out later.
My sentiments exactly. As long as you stick more or less to accepted industry conventions (by not printing your submission on pink paper, for example, or using a smiley-face sticker to indicate a chapter break), you should be fine. So if you're like me and tend to go overlength, any trick you can employ to save a line or two is well worth trying. |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 12:58:14
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I would have to agree with the comments by Richard Byers and Mr. Davis about the relative importance of storytelling to formatting issues, but my personal bias leans more toward Mr. Franklin's attitude. Sure, a work will be accepted on its merits--that's a given. But once you know a publisher has a particular requirement, however minor, it seems reasonable and prudent to follow it when formatting a manuscript.
A manuscript, yes, but a proposal? I'm really not sure what's the best way to go. On the one hand, if you only have ten pages to work with, and you're including material from two scenes, it's reasonable to indicate a break using as little space as possible. On the other hand, one of the cardinal rules of manuscript submission is, "Don't give the editors a reason to reject your work." I wonder to what extent details of this nature factor into the final decision, even if it's on a subconscious level.
Here's an odd analogy that might help explain: When I was a kid, my older sister liked to watch beauty pageants. The women were all so gorgeous and polished--how could anyone choose among them? Judie, who read about such matters, informed me that some judges, for lack of a better method, tended to eliminate contestants for the most minor flaws: a misplaced freckle, a visible filling in one molar, a waist that could have been a half inch smaller. I suspect that it's much the same in publishing. When you've got hundreds of submissions, many of them of excellent quality, how do you settle on just one? The originality of the ideas, the quality of the writing--yes, certainly. But in a close race, judges and editors start looking for "misplaced freckles."
Extending the metaphor, let's assume that a judge thinks the ideal beauty queen is the quintessential shiksa: tall, blond, blue eyes. When he sees a contestant who conforms to his mental image, he's going to judge her more favorably that he might an equally beautiful Latina. Perhaps, on a subconscious level, when editors see a manuscript that LOOKS like a contracted WotC submission, they're more inclined to view it in a favorable light. I'm not saying this happens--I have no idea what goes through the editors' minds when they review submissions--but it would certainly be consistent with what I know of human nature.
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Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 14 Jul 2004 13:01:24 |
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Erin Tettensor
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 14:14:31
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I can understand this idea -- up to a point. When I taught first-year university students, I used to extoll the virtues of paying close attention to what I called "benefit of the doubt" issues. If your term paper is laser-printed, I'm going to think more favourably about it than if it's printed on a dot matrix. It won't affect the quality of your ideas, but it will affect my state of mind when I'm reading them. Thus, if there comes a point where I need to give the student the benefit of the doubt, I'm more likely to do so if I'm not grumpy from having to squint at the page. Much as I'd like to overcome such bias, I'm only human. I feel the same way about spelling errors and little "notes to teacher" on the last page.
However, to my mind there's a big difference between minor annoyances like these and using a number sign instead of an asterisk. That's not an excuse to reject a proposal, it's downright neurosis. It would be like condemning me for spelling "favour" with a "u". To pick one candidate over another for something like that would really make me wonder about the editor. Especially if that editor didn't consider such details important enough to bother including them in the proposal guidelines in the first place. |
Edited by - Erin Tettensor on 14 Jul 2004 14:26:22 |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 15:27:42
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Elaine, you may have a point. To be honest, it never even occurs to me to try to find out details like whether a particular publisher has a preference about how something like how you indicate a scene break. Maybe it should. But so far, to the best of my knowledge, I've never had a problem because of my laziness in this regard.
Your post leaves me curious about one thing: When you've done something that's not a shared-world story, something you wind up submitting to more than market, do you determine each editor's preferences, then go through and make the fiddly little changes to suit them, each and every time before mailing the story off? If so, you may well be making the prudent choice, but for me, that would get old real fast. |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 15:59:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Elaine, you may have a point. To be honest, it never even occurs to me to try to find out details like whether a particular publisher has a preference about how something like how you indicate a scene break. Maybe it should. But so far, to the best of my knowledge, I've never had a problem because of my laziness in this regard.
Your post leaves me curious about one thing: When you've done something that's not a shared-world story, something you wind up submitting to more than market, do you determine each editor's preferences, then go through and make the fiddly little changes to suit them, each and every time before mailing the story off? If so, you may well be making the prudent choice, but for me, that would get old real fast.
Richard, as you may have gathered from the ambivalence of my post, I'm not sure whether or not I have a point, either!  Do the small, variable things matter to an editor, and if so, how much? That's hard to determine from this side of the desk.
I wouldn't consider a lack of inquiry into such issues as scene breaks "laziness;" my point is, if you know about a publisher's preference, it makes sense to follow it.
No, I usually don't ask specific (picky) formating questions before sending off a submission, and yes, that would get old very fast. But I do visit the publisher's webpage and look for any writing guidelines that would indicate formatting preference. When these are lacking, I stick to industry standards. When I'm about to submit a contracted manuscript to a new editor or publisher, I will ask if they have any personal preferences for font, type size, and margins. (I've become more sensitive to this particular issue in the last year or two, as my own vision has taken a rapid nosedive.) But no, I don't think it would be prudent to bug publishers with questions about minor formatting issues when you're submitting a work for consideration. My theory is, all other things being equal, editors prefer to work with low-maintenance writers. Asking a multitude of questions when you're SUBMITTING a work strikes me as a red flag for high-maintenance. |
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James P. Davis
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
244 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 09:09:06
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quote:
Perhaps, on a subconscious level, when editors see a manuscript that LOOKS like a contracted WotC submission, they're more inclined to view it in a favorable light. I'm not saying this happens--I have no idea what goes through the editors' minds when they review submissions--but it would certainly be consistent with what I know of human nature.
I gotta' agree with that also, especially for newbies like me. While I think the writing should stand on its own, above formatting issues, I personally tend to be very detail oriented. I wouldn't get all hung up if I had something wrong after the fact, but I would surely attempt to fix it if I realized an error beforehand.
Maybe when my writing finally hits shelves I'll feel less "new" to all of this and become a little more relaxed (though I doubt it!), but I've got the format for my current manuscript down at the moment...so I have much more time to worry about what I'm writing, lol!
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"Everybody is a book of blood; wherever we're opened, we're red."--Clive Barker
FR: RotD2:"Possessions"
Wizards:Bloodwalk
Citadels: The Shield of Weeping Ghosts
Wilds: The Restless Shore
Ed Greenwood Presents Waterdeep: Circle of Skulls (May 2010)
Book trailers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC-ska7ohVk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfvFdQ8bLp0 |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 18:42:19
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Biggus Geekus, may I recommend a book that you might find helpful? When I started writing, I formatted my submissions according to the instructions in The Writer's Digest Guide to Manuscript Formats, published by Writer's Digest Books. This book is still in print, readily available in the reference sections of good bookstores and libraries, or through the Writer's Digest Bookclub or website.
Presentation matters. When TSR editor Mary Kirchoff called me to offer a book contract based on my submission to the Harper series open call, she asked me what else I'd done, and seemed surprised when I told her that this would be my first published book. The moral I took from this experience: If your work LOOKS professional, people might mistake you for one. |
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AlacLuin
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 23:53:03
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
... When I started writing, I formatted my submissions according to the instructions in The Writer's Digest Guide to Manuscript Formats, published by Writer's Digest Books. This book is still in print, readily available in the reference sections of good bookstores and libraries, or through the Writer's Digest Bookclub or website.
I just went looking for this book based on this suggestion.
It is actually out of print, but can be found online.
Save the trip (I went to 2 book stores and bought $60 worth of other books) and just order it online, if you can't find it at the library. |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
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Kameron M. Franklin
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2004 : 01:38:32
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
Biggus Geekus, may I recommend a book that you might find helpful? When I started writing, I formatted my submissions according to the instructions in The Writer's Digest Guide to Manuscript Formats, published by Writer's Digest Books. This book is still in print, readily available in the reference sections of good bookstores and libraries, or through the Writer's Digest Bookclub or website.
I actually used the guidelines I found in a Writer's Digest article--probably excerpted from the above book--to format my MoP proposal. |
"You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." --Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2004 : 12:59:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Kameron M. Franklin
I actually used the guidelines I found in a Writer's Digest article--probably excerpted from the above book--to format my MoP proposal.
That's an interesting coincidence.... or is it?
You now have the testimony of TWO open call winners. KMK, we could probably collaborate on a promotional article for Writer's Digest Bookclub. In our copious spare time. |
Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 16 Jul 2004 13:00:54 |
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Gareth Yaztromo
Acolyte
Australia
37 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2004 : 01:10:01
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Instead of starting a new thread I thought I'd confine it to this one. I have a few questions concerning submitting work that I was wondering if any of you guys could answer. Firstly does age and occupation have (as well as talent) a big part in WoTC's selection of hiring new authors in their competitions? I am 25 this year and a full time university student (finishing next year) and feel that I may be to young.
And another question, which has less to do with submission and more to do with critique (though naïve as it may sound)... what are the major concerns why authors can't read unsolicited work? |
"Gereth Yaztromo is arguably the most famous wizard of Allansia due to his part in a number of the most well known sagas of that region from the third century AC. He is also known as one of the three Star Pupils of the Grand Wizard of Yore.." |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2004 : 01:30:33
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Gareth: I'm not a WotC employee, merely a freelancer, but even so, I'm reasonably sure I'm correct when I say they couldn't care less about your age and occupation. They didn't bother to find out my age or non-writer occupation before giving me work.
Why are established writers often reluctant to critique people's work? I'll give you two reasons:
1. It takes time and energy we could otherwise use to write our own stuff and make money, spend with friends and family, etc. And, to be brutally cold and frank about it, what's in it for us?
2. We don't want people suing us for allegedly plagarizing elements of the work we critiqued. You may think that's paranoid, but greedy and unscrupulous people have occasionally sued writers for plagarism on the flimsiest of pretexts. |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2004 : 03:24:06
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My experience with WotC was similar to Richard's. I was offered a contract first, then the editor asked as an afterthought, "So, what else have you done?" She had no idea what, if anything, I'd previously published, and less knowledge of such things as age, training, and occupation.
Similar answer on the critiquing, also. Keep in mind that many published writers don't write full time--we also have day jobs, not to mention family responsibilities and minimal sleep requirements. Writing time is in limited supply, and must be reserved for meeting deadlines and commitments.
The only critiquing I do is at small cons. I offer private writing workshops, which involves sitting down for an hour or so with an aspiring writer to do a detailed line edit of a writing sample. When I'm at a con, I'm there for the con guests.
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The Wanderer
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2004 : 03:27:47
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| Are you by any chance coming to DragonCon in Atlanta? |
The Wanderer |
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Erin Tettensor
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2004 : 10:14:24
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If it makes you feel any better, Gareth, I know of at least two WoTC authors who are your age or younger.
One of them is me. ;) |
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James P. Davis
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
244 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2004 : 11:27:18
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| I'm only a little older than you Gareth and I was never asked my age or occupation (outside what little info I gave in my initial cover letter). Elaine and Richard got the critiquing question covered quite nicely, you gotta' be careful what you read. Even an unfounded claim of plagiarism can cost alot, not to mention damage an author's career. |
"Everybody is a book of blood; wherever we're opened, we're red."--Clive Barker
FR: RotD2:"Possessions"
Wizards:Bloodwalk
Citadels: The Shield of Weeping Ghosts
Wilds: The Restless Shore
Ed Greenwood Presents Waterdeep: Circle of Skulls (May 2010)
Book trailers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC-ska7ohVk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfvFdQ8bLp0 |
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Gareth Yaztromo
Acolyte
Australia
37 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2004 : 04:28:05
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| Thanks guys for the information. |
"Gereth Yaztromo is arguably the most famous wizard of Allansia due to his part in a number of the most well known sagas of that region from the third century AC. He is also known as one of the three Star Pupils of the Grand Wizard of Yore.." |
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Gareth Yaztromo
Acolyte
Australia
37 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2004 : 15:08:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Zyx
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I think your problem is you're typing blank lines between paragraphs (like a web page), when in fact new paragraphs should be indicated with a paragraph indent of about 1". So your double-spaced dialogue should look like #2 but with the first line of each paragraph indented.
Unless US publishing works differently from UK and I never noticed.
You're exactly right, and no -- US publishing isn't different in that respect. Manuscripts are not like business letters or academic papers. Instead of putting a space between paragraphs (or dialogue), an indent is appropriate.
Here's another trick: don't use spaces for section breaks. To indicate the passage of time, a change in point of view, or a new chapter, simply centre a number sign (#). An industry-standard manuscript does not contain spaces of any kind, but more importantly for a Wizards submission (which does not conform in many ways), it saves you precious space!
Did you mean a single spaced symbol in a double spaced proposal, something like this:
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.
#
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
blah blah blah blah blah blah etc...
I'm asking this because I have finished my 10 page proposal and have had to sacrifice scene division.
Also my synopsis is cluttered and doesn't have any indentations or paragraph divisions. It is merely a block of 10pt text, which I managed to squeeze in the events of the story. Is this ok? |
"Gereth Yaztromo is arguably the most famous wizard of Allansia due to his part in a number of the most well known sagas of that region from the third century AC. He is also known as one of the three Star Pupils of the Grand Wizard of Yore.." |
Edited by - Gareth Yaztromo on 27 Jul 2004 15:14:57 |
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Kameron M. Franklin
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2004 : 16:41:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Gareth Yaztromo
Also my synopsis is cluttered and doesn't have any indentations or paragraph divisions. It is merely a block of 10pt text, which I managed to squeeze in the events of the story. Is this ok?
Definitely not. You need to make sure your synopsis is as professional looking as the rest of your proposal, and that means formatting it correctly. You can find a great article on writing strong, concise, one-page synopses at http://www.geocities.com/hotclue/barebones.html. |
"You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." --Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride |
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General submission question
