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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Jul 2004 : 06:34:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
My point is that almost all female leads in FR novels are Ultra!Omg!Beautiful-and-SPESHUL11!! Not asking for pockmarked crones with sagging breasts or anything, but it gets old after a while. Female leads that look, well, like normal people -- fairly plain, not exceptionally outstanding in appearance -- would be a welcome, refreshing change.
Almost all, but not all. I seem to recall a passage in Elminster's Daughter that specifically stated that Narnra was not that attractive.
To expand on what Kuje31 said:
I looked up weredragons (the original name for song dragons) in the Dragon Magazine Archives CD-ROMs. I believe (though I certainly won't swear to it) that Dragon 134, page 11, was the first description of weredragons in the Realms.
From that page:
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Weredragons are fertile in both human and dragon forms; they are always female and always produce other weredragons, whether the father was a human or another dragon of any sort.
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 08 Jul 2004 06:36:30 |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2004 : 06:53:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
My point is that almost all female leads in FR novels are Ultra!Omg!Beautiful-and-SPESHUL11!! Not asking for pockmarked crones with sagging breasts or anything, but it gets old after a while. Female leads that look, well, like normal people -- fairly plain, not exceptionally outstanding in appearance -- would be a welcome, refreshing change.
Almost all, but not all. I seem to recall a passage in Elminster's Daughter that specifically stated that Narnra was not that attractive.
I haven't read Elminster's Daughter (I'm not that big a masochist; if I don't like an author's style, I'm not going to touch any more of his/her novels again with a ten-foot pole), but that's one out of how many? No, don't bring up secondary or tertiary characters -- most of them are bound to be plain/ugly/unremarkable in physique anyway. The Seven Mary Sues Sisters? Haha. Shandril is supposed to be pretty -- even a dracolich remarked on it, and the Shadowsil mentions that she is "so pretty." Ariel/Midnight was beautiful. Danica is exotic and beautiful. Liriel is definitely beautiful; ditto for Arilyn Moonblade. Let's not even start on all the elven women.
There's a plethora more I could bring up, but then this post would lengthen into, well, a long semi-essay. I know that this is pretty much a trend for any fantasy novel, not just FR, that female leads have to be at least physically attractive. (But males can be hideous and it's all still okay! Wuh?) I don't have that much problem with it, really, but a female lead that looks like an ordinary person once in a while would be nice. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2004 : 07:32:10
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| You think the Seven Sisters are Ed's Mary Sues? Isn't that a rather harsh judgement? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2004 : 08:34:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You think the Seven Sisters are Ed's Mary Sues? Isn't that a rather harsh judgement?
Let me clarify: Mary Sues are not necessarily wish-fulfillment or self-insertion. (It is possible for a self-insertion to be a non-Sue, even.) Some people maintain that, if it's canon, it's not a Sue at all, but that's neither here nor there. Definition differs from person to person, but from my Mary Sue essay:
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Rules bend for her. Laws break for her. History alters itself to suit her. Universes twist themselves to fit her. Males everywhere grovel for her attention. Engaged males abandon their love for her. Females everywhere turn green with envy at the sight of her. Females that don't, become her very best friends. The vilest of vile villains shiver and whimper like babes at the mere mention of her name.
She is beautiful beyond telling. Her talents extend beyond imagining. Her heart is made of pure gold. She embodies courage, compassion, motherly instincts, loyalty, honor, intelligence, wisdom, strength, dexterity, charisma, faith, hope, virtue, love, etc. In short, she is the gift of gods to mankind.
Actually, she isn't. She is a pain. And her name is Mary Sue.
And there you have it -- rather simplified, though. As far as I'm concerned, there's no angle from which to look and perceive the Seven Sisters as anything less than a bunch of Sues. They are about as Sueish as you get without naming them Mary Sue I, Mary Sue II and so on. They are somewhat tolerable as characters in the background, for me, but ugh, reading Silverfall almost gave me severe physical pain and an urge to spork out my eyes. |
Edited by - Winterfox on 08 Jul 2004 08:37:12 |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2004 : 14:44:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
My point is that almost all female leads in FR novels are Ultra!Omg!Beautiful-and-SPESHUL11!! Not asking for pockmarked crones with sagging breasts or anything, but it gets old after a while. Female leads that look, well, like normal people -- fairly plain, not exceptionally outstanding in appearance -- would be a welcome, refreshing change.
Well, I can think of at least one female lead who was plain-faced, Mari al'Maren. But I agree she's in a very small minority. Yes, it would be realistic if there were more plain females in FR novels, but the main audience is largely male - and most males would rather read about beautiful females than plain ones. And WotC knows that. |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2004 : 14:50:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
Rules bend for her. Laws break for her. History alters itself to suit her. Universes twist themselves to fit her. Males everywhere grovel for her attention. Engaged males abandon their love for her. Females everywhere turn green with envy at the sight of her. Females that don't, become her very best friends. The vilest of vile villains shiver and whimper like babes at the mere mention of her name.
She is beautiful beyond telling. Her talents extend beyond imagining. Her heart is made of pure gold. She embodies courage, compassion, motherly instincts, loyalty, honor, intelligence, wisdom, strength, dexterity, charisma, faith, hope, virtue, love, etc. In short, she is the gift of gods to mankind.
Actually, she isn't. She is a pain. And her name is Mary Sue.
You know, when reading that I thought it perfectly applied to Elizabeth Haydon's character Rhapsody (whom I despise). She's everything you mentioned above. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2004 : 04:00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
Well, I can think of at least one female lead who was plain-faced, Mari al'Maren. But I agree she's in a very small minority. Yes, it would be realistic if there were more plain females in FR novels, but the main audience is largely male - and most males would rather read about beautiful females than plain ones. And WotC knows that.
Actually, most female readers also like to read about beautiful female characters. I don't really see the reason for this anymore; sure, it's nice and it sounds glamourous, but books aren't a visual medium like films. Even if the characters aren't beautiful, it's not as if you'll be reminded of it every other page or something, or vice versa. I personally couldn't care less what a character looks like, anyway, unless it's got some plot/charaacterization/etc siginificance. Usually it's just superfluous. (Applies to lengthy descriptions of physique and clothing alike. I really do not care either way what someone's wearing, which is why certain parts of Silverfall have earned my loathing.)
quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
You know, when reading that I thought it perfectly applied to Elizabeth Haydon's character Rhapsody (whom I despise). She's everything you mentioned above.
Hoho. Rhapsody is definitely there -- renewed virginity (WTF? Whywhywhy?), beauty that causes traffic accidents, basically queen of everything (Lady Cymrian, right?), a list of titles that stretch several meters long (Lady Cymrian, Canwr, Duchess of Elysium, Ilia'chenvar, to name but a few), etc. I believe there are more books to be released after Symphony of the Ages. *shudders* Requiem for the Sun or something.
Er, getting wildly off-topic, I know, but... |
Edited by - Winterfox on 09 Jul 2004 07:50:51 |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2004 : 14:23:45
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Wildly unfair comment about the Seven Sisters, Winterfox. They're bred by a goddess, and get their looks that way. Ed said at a GenCOn panel that they're not like ordinary mortals, and if you pay careful attention to how they're depicted, they're all rebelling (against Mother Mystra) somehow.
After all, how fair would it be if you objected to Odin having a beard, or Thor having a hammer? Gods and their offspring have always been depicted as special. That doesn't make them "Mary Sues."
Ed also said that he hated having to write Silverfall under the editorial controls, and it would have been "far different" if he'd been free to do it his own way, and if it hadn't been changed after he handed it in. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2004 : 15:10:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
They're bred by a goddess, and get their looks that way.
Your point? They could have gotten ordinary looks. As I've said, I think beauty is superfluous and adds nothing at all to personality.
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Ed said at a GenCOn panel that they're not like ordinary mortals, and if you pay careful attention to how they're depicted, they're all rebelling (against Mother Mystra) somehow.
The "somehow" makes it dubious, doesn't it? And rebelling against Mystra would de-Sue them why? Mary Sues are generally idealized characters -- fiercely independent and all, blah blah blah.
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After all, how fair would it be if you objected to Odin having a beard, or Thor having a hammer?
It's relevant?
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Gods and their offspring have always been depicted as special. That doesn't make them "Mary Sues."
Your definition of a Sue being?
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Ed also said that he hated having to write Silverfall under the editorial controls, and it would have been "far different" if he'd been free to do it his own way, and if it hadn't been changed after he handed it in.
So? I'm sure that, if he'd had his way, the Seven Sues Sisters would have been perfectly well-rounded, human characters. But the end product is that in Silverfall, they're demi-goddesses who prance around adored by everyone but the villains. They are supposed to be ultra-wise and ultra-intelligent (though this is pure telling rather than showing; I can't really see any smidgen of intelligence in their planning and actions), extraordinarily beautiful, graceful, and of course they are all compassionate. They are all very understanding and can charm the socks off anything. (Except, perhaps, for the Simbul.) They are as static as a bunch of rocks; they have no room for character development because they have all but achieved near-divine perfection. They don't experience any life-changing events or real tragedies, because they can use their powers to make everything all right again. (Well, Qilue can't in Starlight & Shadows, but... different author, different approach.) Oh, they have the token angst of "Oh no, I'm immortal, I'll mourn and cry when my friends pass away, oh doom, oh torment, oh the tragedy!111!", but that comes across as artificial to me. If they aren't Sues, then I don't know what is.
Look, you can argue until you're blue in the face, but I'd still call the Seven Sisters blatant Queens of Suedom. I've provided all the reasons I feel I need to as to why I think the way I do. You aren't going to convince me otherwise, so let's agree to disagree. Or take this elsewhere where we can be off-topic all we want and not earn moderator's ire. |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2004 : 22:08:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
Your point? They could have gotten ordinary looks. As I've said, I think beauty is superfluous and adds nothing at all to personality.
Oh really, how many heroes of mythology (children of deities) were known to be ugly or even plain looking? Aside from the evil ones, I can't think of many. Your frequent bashing of good looking characters means that you quite obviously feel that they take away from personality.
I'd strongly disagree.
I think that quite a few people have the personality quirks that they do due to their appearance and their perception of their appearance. Confidence, self-doubt, and even self-loathing can all spring from one's appearance or the way one perceives their appearance. These personality traits affect every interaction that this person takes part in. I think Adon's crisis in the Avatar Trilogy was actually a pretty good portrayal of how much appearance can mean for a person.
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They don't experience any life-changing events or real tragedies, because they can use their powers to make everything all right again.
I'm sure Sylune would argue with you here.
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If they aren't Sues, then I don't know what is.
I'd definitely agree with you. Look up the definition, it isn't idealized person of the opposite sex whom you would be attracted to. A Mary Sue is supposed to be an idealized representative of the author himself or herself. One could argue that Elminster and Mirt have elements of Mar(t)y Suedom, but otherwise, I'd say you are off.
In the meantime, have fun with this: Your very own Mary Sue test.
Sarta |
Edited by - Sarta on 09 Jul 2004 22:15:43 |
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Sage of Stars
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2004 : 01:10:16
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Winterfox posts:
quote:
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Look, you can argue until you're blue in the face, but ... You aren't going to convince me otherwise ...
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Well, that’s rather an inevitable conclusion, Winterfox, if you refuse to even acknowledge Blueblade’s perfectly valid point (dismissing it flippantly with:
quote:
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Your point?
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Which makes your bringing up Ed Greenwood’s alleged Mary-Sue-ism (as Sarta has pointed out, you don’t even seem to properly understand the term) seem to me to be little more than a gratuitous attack.
Particularly when this scroll is SUPPOSED to be about the Rage, which last time I looked was written by Richard Lee Byers. (You yourself mention risking the ire of monitors in a “I’ve had the last word, so you’d now better not say anything more here” gambit. A tongue, like a sword, has two edges.)
Moreover, if anything subtle written by an author is in your judgement “dubious,” then you place yourself in that group of readers who are the very reason many female leads in fantasy novels are beautiful: those who glance quickly at surface impressions and don’t bother to look more closely or read farther.
I can recall about a dozen important Greenwood characters who are both female and specifically described in terms that are less than attractive and alluring, and although it’s your perfect right not to read a novel by a writer you don’t happen to like, it’s again unfair, not to mention intellectually dishonest, to profess not to have read Elminster’s Daughter and then to dismiss Ed’s unattractive female lead character in that book as “but one.” After all, YOU are “but one” person, and so am I. So are all of us. To belittle any main character because they don’t fit your argument is to put it politely, less than mature.
I make my living by writing sf novels, and have collected and read fantasy and sf novels for over thirty years. I can assure you that Blueblade’s point is not only valid, it is typical of the work of many, many writers in both fields, and in real-world mythology handed down to us: the offspring of gods are often visibly “special,” and are rarely to be judged by the same criteria as mere mortals. You may not choose to do so in a fantasy world you create, but please accord Ed Greenwood the right to do so in his fantasy world.
You have every right to hold any opinion on Ed’s works you please to, but I hardly think the Origins Awards committee -- his peers -- would have inducted him into the Hall of Fame if his writing was as lousy as you imply it is.
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2004 : 01:17:50
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I'm not even sure if I can agree with Sarta that Elminster and Mirt have Marty-Sue elements. I mean, they were both in the first or very early Realms short stories, when Ed Greenwood was seven or eight (!). So back then, when he established their characters and described them, he wasn't fat, didn't have a beard, didn't go to conventions, was shy (or so he tells us, and why lie about it when plenty of people who knew him then can say otherwise?), etc. etc.
I think the whole Mary Sue thing doesn't apply to the Realms. It has SO MANY characters, and we know that Ed didn't even want to write about Elminster, and only started doing so when he was told if he didn't, other writers would take over the characters (same with the Seven Sisters).
So, yes, Winterfox, we're going to have to agree to disagree!
As a prof of mine once said: "I find your arguments neither strong nor convincing. That's probably because they're really just unsupported personal opinion." |
Edited by - Blueblade on 10 Jul 2004 01:22:45 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2004 : 04:22:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Stars
Particularly when this scroll is SUPPOSED to be about the Rage, which last time I looked was written by Richard Lee Byers. (You yourself mention risking the ire of monitors in a “I’ve had the last word, so you’d now better not say anything more here” gambit. A tongue, like a sword, has two edges.)
In the hopes of steering this back on topic, despite many scribes attempting to do otherwise, did anyone else enjoy the recent Dragon short story by Richard Lee Byers featuring my favorite The Rage character, Taegan?
Am I the only one who liked Taegan the most out of this motley bunch?  |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2004 : 05:17:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarta
Oh really, how many heroes of mythology (children of deities) were known to be ugly or even plain looking? Aside from the evil ones, I can't think of many. Your frequent bashing of good looking characters means that you quite obviously feel that they take away from personality.
Uhm, actually, no. However, if I like a character, I rarely like him/her because of his/her appearance.
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These personality traits affect every interaction that this person takes part in. I think Adon's crisis in the Avatar Trilogy was actually a pretty good portrayal of how much appearance can mean for a person.
Oh, actually, I agree there -- or say, in the case of Dorn (to make this minimally on-topic). However, most authors don't really touch on this, and tag extraordinary beauty on characters who don't care that much about their appearance and never, ever, experience such things as vanity. Glarg.
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I'm sure Sylune would argue with you here.
But after she becomes a spectral Harpist, then what? She doesn't seem to have experienced any further development or anything. She's just there.
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I'd definitely agree with you. Look up the definition, it isn't idealized person of the opposite sex whom you would be attracted to. A Mary Sue is supposed to be an idealized representative of the author himself or herself. One could argue that Elminster and Mirt have elements of Mar(t)y Suedom, but otherwise, I'd say you are off.
Er, no. The definition's changed with time, and in many circles, now "Mary Sue" means, mostly, "characterization gone terribly, terribly wrong." Take Rhapsody, mentioned above; many people who've read the books will tell you that her love interest, Ashe, is a Marty Stu in his own right despite the author being female. There are examples of fanfiction where a female author takes, say, Legolas, idealize him into an effeminate sex-fiend. Many people'd still say that this is a Marty Stu.
In the meantime, have fun with this: Your very own Mary Sue test.
Sarta
I'm familiar with it, and funny you should bring it up, because among the questions in this test are:
quote:
# Would you like to be friends with the character if you met in real life?[1]
# Do you think everyone who reads the story should automatically like the character and want to be friends with the character?[1][/quote] |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2004 : 05:24:59
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Sage of Stars said:
quote:
Moreover, if anything subtle written by an author is in your judgement “dubious,” then you place yourself in that group of readers who are the very reason many female leads in fantasy novels are beautiful: those who glance quickly at surface impressions and don’t bother to look more closely or read farther.
And you say I make gratuitous attacks? Okay. Oh, and you seem to conveniently forget that I was referring to Blueblade's use of the word "somehow."
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To belittle any main character because they don’t fit your argument is to put it politely, less than mature.
Mmmkay. That sums up to what, now? "You are immature, and you are so shallow you can never appreciate nor understand the subtleties of this author's writing." Congratulations!
quote:
You have every right to hold any opinion on Ed’s works you please to, but I hardly think the Origins Awards committee -- his peers -- would have inducted him into the Hall of Fame if his writing was as lousy as you imply it is.
Let's put it this way: there's this novel that has merited a Booker Prize. I read it and held on for grim death all the way from cover to cover, in the bleak hope that I'll find something about it that I like at some point aside from some of the word choices. I ended up loathing the book with an unholy passion.
So I'm sure Mr. Ed Greenwood's writing has literary/entertainment merits. I just haven't been able to find them. *snorts* I'm sure you'll conclude that I have a pre-Neanderthal mind that can never, ever, comprehend Mr. Ed Greenwood's genius.
Blueblade said:
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As a prof of mine once said: "I find your arguments neither strong nor convincing. That's probably because they're really just unsupported personal opinion."
Should I even respond to this? |
Edited by - Winterfox on 10 Jul 2004 05:37:20 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2004 : 05:31:47
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| Folks, I don't like where this thread is going... Let us leave off all debates about characters from other books, okay? If you really must debate it, make a new scroll. We've gone seriously off-topic here. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2004 : 05:34:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Folks, I don't like where this thread is going... Let us leave off all debates about characters from other books, okay? If you really must debate it, make a new scroll. We've gone seriously off-topic here.
Well, I was trying to be more subtle.....but apparently this is one case where subtle isn't going to work. Thus, I don't blame your post WR.
So, what did anyone think about the revelation at the end of the novel regarding the elven connection? Can those elves cause trouble in FR or what?  |
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Sage of Stars
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2004 : 06:17:42
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Quote:
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Let's put it this way: there's this novel that has merited a Booker Prize. I read it and held on for grim death all the way from cover to cover, in the bleak hope that I'll find something about it that I like at some point aside from some of the word choices. I ended up loathing the book with an unholy passion.
So I'm sure Mr. Ed Greenwood's writing has literary/entertainment merits. I just haven't been able to find them. *snorts* I'm sure you'll conclude that I have a pre-Neanderthal mind that can never, ever, comprehend Mr. Ed Greenwood's genius.
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No, Winterfox, I don’t conclude that. However, your very words, quoted here, make it apparent that your discussions of books are still dominated by what you “like” and “loathe,” rather than details and elements of the narratives themselves.
So I’m done discussing this with you. Probably until your next gratuitous attack. 
Meanwhile, as SiriusBlack and Wooly Rupert have both suggested, back to the Rage. I’ve discussed RSEs (the “this year’s event” side of them rather than the “Realms shaking” side of them) with WotC Publishing Group staff and publicists at some of the industry trade shows, such as BEA, and I’m interested in the opinions of some of the long-time Realms fiction readers here: is the Year of Rogue Dragons thus far shaping up as “Realms-shaking” or “interesting” or…what?
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Tethtoril
Seeker
95 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2004 : 06:19:16
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  You are making a very grumpy Tethtoril drag himself here from his sick bed. Don't make this very grumpy Tethtoril switch his feather duster for the staff of the moderator or a few of you are going to have lumps you will long remember and then can write about that for hours on end. 
There have been some wonderful attempts by elder scribes to move this topic back on course.  Which the grumpy Tethtoril appreciates to no end. I am politely suggesting some of the youth take a hint from their elders. 'Nuff said ...
Grumpy Tethtoril is going back to sleep now and if I have to come back in here ...   |
Tethtoril
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood |
Edited by - Tethtoril on 10 Jul 2004 06:20:56 |
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Josh Davids
Seeker
57 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2004 : 06:21:34
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Actually Sirius I was going to ask a question about that here. Is the short featuring Taegan set before or after the first novel? Wanted to know which order to read them in before I start on the novel.
Thanks in advance for the answer.
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2004 : 14:11:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Josh Davids
Actually Sirius I was going to ask a question about that here. Is the short featuring Taegan set before or after the first novel? Wanted to know which order to read them in before I start on the novel.
Thanks in advance for the answer.
Before. The short story is about Taegan's first experiences in dealing with city folks. I found the story very enjoyable. I think Taegan fans from The Rage will especially love seeing the avariel before he got comfortable in dealing with other cultures.
I hope you enjoy the story.
SB
P.S. I thank you for assisting me in my feeble attempts to get back on topic. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2004 : 14:16:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Stars
I’m interested in the opinions of some of the long-time Realms fiction readers here: is the Year of Rogue Dragons thus far shaping up as “Realms-shaking” or “interesting” or…what?
It's a Realms Shaking Event (RSE). Why do I think that? Well, if I recall correctly, the author has used the term in discussing the novel. If memory serves, Richard Lee Byers mentioned that when the trilogy was put forth by WOTC, they used the RSE term. So, yes, I think it's shaping up to be that type of event and so far I don't mind as the story is very good. |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2004 : 20:44:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Stars
Meanwhile, as SiriusBlack and Wooly Rupert have both suggested, back to the Rage. I’ve discussed RSEs (the “this year’s event” side of them rather than the “Realms shaking” side of them) with WotC Publishing Group staff and publicists at some of the industry trade shows, such as BEA, and I’m interested in the opinions of some of the long-time Realms fiction readers here: is the Year of Rogue Dragons thus far shaping up as “Realms-shaking” or “interesting” or…what?
So far it's "interesting" for me, but not Realms-shaking (yet). Maybe because so far it has affected little-seen parts of Faerun, maybe because the characters are all new, but so far it lacks an epic feel. This is just the first book, though, and it may be that my opinion will change with the next ones. Mentions of well-known locales, or cameos by prominent NPCs would, for me, do much to give the impression that this is a Realms-shaking event. The Return of the Archwizards managed it - the Chosen of Mystra, characters from Waterdeep, Cormyr, the Dalelands, Sembia, Evereska and Evermeet were involved, if only peripherally sometimes. |
Edited by - Krafus on 10 Jul 2004 20:46:45 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2004 : 21:05:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
So far it's "interesting" for me, but not Realms-shaking (yet). Maybe because so far it has affected little-seen parts of Faerun, maybe because the characters are all new, but so far it lacks an epic feel. This is just the first book, though, and it may be that my opinion will change with the next ones. Mentions of well-known locales, or cameos by prominent NPCs would, for me, do much to give the impression that this is a Realms-shaking event. The Return of the Archwizards managed it - the Chosen of Mystra, characters from Waterdeep, Cormyr, the Dalelands, Sembia, Evereska and Evermeet were involved, if only peripherally sometimes.
I agree with this statement. We've not yet seen enough for it to be a RSE. Mayhaps the second book will expand the effects of the Rage even further, and then we'll have a true RSE. |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2004 : 10:25:43
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I particulary liked the scene when the party arrived in Elventree to find that the Zhentarim stood monitoring arrivals to the town. One of the Zhentarim stated that the Rage was occuring all over the Moonsea region and that they should all "put aside their differences" and band together to combat this threat. Made me feel warm
...of course, Zhentarim being Zhentarim then proceeded to show their corrupted ways by means of extortion and such, and ruined the whole togetherness of it all Excellent writing, very well done. |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2004 : 10:30:11
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Another of my favorite scenes was the battle at the fortress between Vorasaegha and the dracolich. The battle was amazing and then suddenly just as Voraseagha had the upper hand, the dracolich said calmly "the elves are no more, your pact is ended. Go to our rest"....and that was it, Voraseagha disappeared is a puff of dust!
Amazing!  |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2004 : 10:39:53
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<SPOILER SPACE>
One other plot thread that I was wondering about from "The Rage" that I forgot to include in my first post was about the bronze dragon Quelsandas. We see the scene where Sammaster approaches him and then the next time he appears he betrays the forces of Impiltur and is slain by Taegan et. al. Did I miss the part in the novel where the motivation for his betrayal was explained? Is it something that will be explained in book 2?
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2004 : 14:13:37
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
<SPOILER SPACE>
One other plot thread that I was wondering about from "The Rage" that I forgot to include in my first post was about the bronze dragon Quelsandas. We see the scene where Sammaster approaches him and then the next time he appears he betrays the forces of Impiltur and is slain by Taegan et. al. Did I miss the part in the novel where the motivation for his betrayal was explained? Is it something that will be explained in book 2?
-- George Krashos
I doubt it will be explained any more than Sammaster's return was. Though apparently Quelsandas thought he himself wouldn't be affected by the Rage, as shown by his words. So my guess is that Sammaster convinced him to betray his allies in exchange for immunity against the Rage. |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2004 : 14:19:16
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George: Quelsandas's motivation is fully explained in Book 1, or at least I hope it is. Here's the deal:
SPOILER SPACE
SPOILER SPACE
Quelsandas is afraid of permanently losing his mind to the coming Rage, which, like many dragons, he senses will be different than those before it. He wants to avoid madness by having the Cult of the Dragon turn him into a dracolich. Sammaster promises him the desired conversion in return for serving as the Cult's secret agent within the royal forces of Impiltur.
Clear? |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2004 : 14:25:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
George: Quelsandas's motivation is fully explained in Book 1, or at least I hope it is. Here's the deal:
SPOILER SPACE
SPOILER SPACE
Quelsandas is afraid of permanently losing his mind to the coming Rage, which, like many dragons, he senses will be different than those before it. He wants to avoid madness by having the Cult of the Dragon turn him into a dracolich. Sammaster promises him the desired conversion in return for serving as the Cult's secret agent within the royal forces of Impiltur.
Clear?
Wow. This is an even bigger betrayal than I thought. However, it leaves me wondering. Quelsandas was affected by the Rage. So did Sammaster betray him and the deal? A fitting fate for a traitor, but one would think that Sammy would be enthusiastic at the thought of transforming a supposedly good dragon into an evil dracolich. |
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Comments on The Rage - Spoilers
