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Senbar Flay
Learned Scribe
185 Posts |
 Posted - 26 May 2004 : 20:26:56
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I have looked into the evil nature of the drow but have been wondering if it is possible to redeem themselves. For theoreticaly they were a good race but the leaders jealoues. And so allied with Lloth drawing the rest of the people in shadow. And when they decended into the earth they bred a cruel society but it seems some have been able to turn from their evil ways like Drizzt. I think the only reason they are evil is the children are brough up in a evil society. Opinion?
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Imagination is more important than knowledge for knowledge is limited imagination encircles the world.- Albert Einstein |
Edited by - Alaundo on 30 May 2004 10:20:37
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aragorn II
Learned Scribe
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2004 : 23:09:55
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| I wholly agree with you. I believe that you are not born evil, good, or neutral; you are taught by society what to think, and it is your choice whether to go along with the rest of society or to rebel against it. |
There can be only one. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2004 : 23:13:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Senbar Flay
I think the only reason they are evil is the children are brough up in a evil society. Opinion?
So, environment is to blame, not heredity. |
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Senbar Flay
Learned Scribe
185 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2004 : 23:52:08
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| I believe it is society so for instance just because you are a moon elf does not mena you are good usually though. However evil ones do exist like in the Arcane Brotherhood. Same with the drow Sirius they have a few who actually make a stand against their brethern like Drizzt. |
Imagination is more important than knowledge for knowledge is limited imagination encircles the world.- Albert Einstein |
Edited by - Senbar Flay on 26 May 2004 23:53:41 |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2004 : 00:26:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Senbar Flay
I have looked into the evil nature of the drow but have been wondering if it is possible to redeem themselves. For theoreticaly they were a good race but the leaders jealoues. And so allied with Lloth drawing the rest of the people in shadow. And when they decended into the earth they bred a cruel society but it seems some have been able to turn from their evil ways like Drizzt. I think the only reason they are evil is the children are brough up in a evil society. Opinion?
I agree with you, Sembar. The drows themselves are pawns of evil and they cannot control their destiny because of Lolth. Look at Zak. The weapon master wasn't evil but he was trapped in the evil society of Menzo and it changed him. Another example is in WotSQ series, Halisstra was a cruel priestess of Lolth but her time in the surface changed her and turned her into a compassionate and gentle priestess of Eilistraee. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Twilight Herald
Acolyte
Australia
14 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2004 : 05:23:40
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| I don't see the drow as being innately evil ( certainly not in the fashion of "always evil" creatures such as demons and devils). Like most elven children Underdark drow youngsters are probably neutral, with strong tendencies towards chaotic good because of the blood of Corellon flowing in their veins. However they then grow to maturity in a culture which seeks to eradicate the "weaknesses" of compassion and conscience. By the time drow reach adulthood and take on adult roles in Underdark society, they're by and large emotionally stunted. Whilst the majority may not be pathological sadists, they've generally lost the ability to make true moral judgements or feel any particular emotional empathy with others. Many drow, like Pharaun Mizzrym in the WOTSQ novels, may have a genuinely good-natured disposition and a lack of taste for overt cruelty, but they still tend to be shockingly callous. Even those who feel regret for betraying close friends, seem to be lamenting the comfort and pleasant feelings the friendship gave [i]them[/i,]rather than indulging in serious moral self-examination of their actions. In the end, I would say that most drow who "redeem" themselves ( which shouldn't neccessarily be all that uncommon ) become basically chaotic neutral or neutral, and still exhibit a certain core of selfishness and cold pragmatism. I even see the majority of Eilistraee's followers as being, although good-natured and generous, also rather fey and dangerous, with an occasional capacity for ruthlessness. Truly good drow should be rare, and all the more exceptional because of that rarity. |
Edited by - Twilight Herald on 27 May 2004 05:27:15 |
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Artalis
Senior Scribe
USA
444 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2004 : 05:39:42
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I agree with what is said previously here but I would say all of this depends on the campaign specifically.
I recently read a Dragon Magazine full of articles on the drow including the lifecycle, and there was some very deep evil going on there. Cannibalism in the womb for instance...(ick)
I don't remember what issue it was (sorry folks) but I am using that information in my campaign. In that campaign Lolth's days are numbered as Eilistraee and Hanali Celanil have forged an alliance and are backed by some other gods who would like Lolth's insanity put to an end as well.
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Artalis
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2004 : 05:53:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Artalis
I recently read a Dragon Magazine full of articles on the drow including the lifecycle, and there was some very deep evil going on there. Cannibalism in the womb for instance...(ick)
Yeah, that issue definitely pushed forth the drow are evil from the start belief. I thought it was a bit over the top for my tastes. But, to each her/his own for a campaign.
quote:
I don't remember what issue it was (sorry folks)
Issue #298. Interesting that in the latest issue of Dragon, #298 is no longer available for purchase. It must have sold out. Living proof of the appeal of dark elves.
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but I am using that information in my campaign. In that campaign Lolth's days are numbered as Eilistraee and Hanali Celanil have forged an alliance and are backed by some other gods who would like Lolth's insanity put to an end as well.
Interesting, more details please.
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2004 : 05:58:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight Herald
I even see the majority of Eilistraee's followers as being, although good-natured and generous, also rather fey and dangerous, with an occasional capacity for ruthlessness.
You bring up a good point. I've seen many posters on other boards that don't like Eilistraee. Many of these individuals give the impression that they view Eilistraee's followers as drow that just want to give everyone a hug and join hands singing a dark elf version of Kumbaya.
Shudder. I love campaigns/novels/anything that shows while Eilistraee's followers might not hold to Lolth's beliefs, they are still very deadly. Repay violence with swift violence after all. |
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Artalis
Senior Scribe
USA
444 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2004 : 06:24:56
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Artalis
[quote]
but I am using that information in my campaign. In that campaign Lolth's days are numbered as Eilistraee and Hanali Celanil have forged an alliance and are backed by some other gods who would like Lolth's insanity put to an end as well.
Interesting, more details please.
Well let's see.
I established a few things going back a few centuries to the fall of Myth Drannor. Hanali set something in motion by taking a page from Mystra's book and bonding with one of her faithful and creating a sort of "para-demi-god" child by infusing a portion of her essence into a child born of the union of her only paladin and a high priestess.
The idea would be that the child would grow up to wield the Blade of the Rose the only weapon that Hanali has ever had a part in creating.
The gist is that Hanali is fed up. She never got over the betrayal of Araushnee (can't spell it's late sorry). She took the love of Corellon and befouled it with her treachery.
Then to compound her horrid acts she created a society that lives to destroy her own works. Love, romance and beauty are all their most favored targets for destruction.
So the gentlest of goddesses finally creates a blade with the potential to end Lolth's existence. (she has Sehanine's help) The only catch is that as with most gods you can't just kill them. You have to seize the portfolio and eliminate the support of the followers.
So anyway. Vahauraun (sorry again) is also interested in seeing Lolth's insanity put to a stop. Drow society is collapsing in on itself, and males are second class citizens due to her influence.
One of V's priestesses is an amazingly ambitious mage/thief/cleric who has managed to amass a great deal of power.
Hanali's Scion has taken the proposal to usurp her portfolio to her and V's blessing is in the bag since she's loyal to him. The priestess is not a goody goody but she is reasonable, sane and brilliant, a natural born leader and very powerful.
Somewhere there's a secret tome lost in the ruins of Tsornyl that hints at the rites required to usurp the power of a god. It requires a god's (or many gods) backing to do it but the rites exist, lost to the deeps of time.
Hanali knows and has been maneuvering for a very long time to bring all these pieces into play. This priestess of V's is very appreciative of beauty, romance and love being wed to a priest of Hanali herself. (Not a coincedence)
Their plan? The Scion will take the Blade of the Rose and slay Lolth's physical form. In the moment of weakness that follows, the rite is performed and if successful the priestess of V's will ascend to godhood. Lolth's portfolio will be usurped and a new goddess of the drow is born one who is (at least cooperative with V and who will discourage the needless slaughter of the surface elves without cause.)
Right now the Blade of the Rose is being dangled above the heads of the primary party in the campaign (Hanali's Scion aka The Hand of Fate is an NPC btw) They need to get the blade and take it back to the Temple of Hanali in Semberholme.
There have I rambled enough? hehe I know it's not canon but I don't really worry about such things.
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Artalis
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Twilight Herald
Acolyte
Australia
14 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2004 : 06:27:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Artalis
I recently read a Dragon Magazine full of articles on the drow including the lifecycle, and there was some very deep evil going on there. Cannibalism in the womb for instance...(ick)
I never liked that Dragon edition, and some of the articles about the drow were an absolute travesty, especially the stuff about twins devouring each other in the womb. ( Which showed, at least, that this was non-FR drow material, since twins seem to crop up in Realms drow society with about the same frequency as among humans, and there are various examples of twin drow characters in FR game and novel material : Greyanna and Sabal Mizzrym, those two archer brothers from the first WOTSQ novel, past examples of twin Matron Mothers co-ruling noble houses, etc )
The greatest horror of FR drow society is that it takes a race with inborn tendencies towards goodness, and crushes that race into the dominion of a cruel and tyrannical religion that has perverted the lives and potential of Toril's mightiest elven people for 12,000 years. Make the drow innately evil, simple caricatures of demonic sadism without free will, and you detract from the terrible beauty, majesty and cruelty of the dark elves. |
Edited by - Twilight Herald on 27 May 2004 06:28:51 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2004 : 14:15:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Artalis
There have I rambled enough? hehe I know it's not canon but I don't really worry about such things.
No need to worry about that as long as you are having fun. Thank you for sharing. |
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Senbar Flay
Learned Scribe
185 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2004 : 19:16:02
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| what about the surface do you think the drow could possibly reclaim it because if you look at cCormanthor it seems the drow especially Vhaerun's want to return to the surface of toril. Do you think a whole migratration could come to pass or merely bands of dark elves. |
Imagination is more important than knowledge for knowledge is limited imagination encircles the world.- Albert Einstein |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2004 : 19:28:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Senbar Flay
what about the surface do you think the drow could possibly reclaim it because if you look at cCormanthor it seems the drow especially Vhaerun's want to return to the surface of toril. Do you think a whole migratration could come to pass or merely bands of dark elves.
Well, I'm curious to see if the events from the WOTSQ increase migration of some dark elves to the surface. One of my theories is that might be the ultimate result from the series and WOTC's plan all along. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36802 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2004 : 20:14:45
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| Ugh... I do not want to see more drow on the surface, good or evil. I think we've got more than enough already. 'Tis time for a new development, thinks I. We've done good drow on the surface, we've done evil drow on the surface, we've done both kinds of drow underground... Once the WotSQ is over, I hope the drow can fade back into the woodwork and become the evil shadowy guys they used to be. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2004 : 20:42:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I hope the drow can fade back into the woodwork and become the evil shadowy guys they used to be.
I understand those feelings. However, it seems more and more players wish to play drow or kill drow. If the drow were a greater presence on the surface, that certainly would facilitate such games that want a drow influence no matter the location.
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Prince Indirian
Acolyte
Sweden
14 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2004 : 15:15:35
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Well I agree on most of what you have said in this thread. There have a lof of good points. I, like Sirius, like to see the Elistraee followers as good, yet still very deadly. Even more so than their evil brethren. I have also noticed that there are some who dislike good drow and say that there are to many of them. Yet it makes a lot sense that their numbers are increasing. Unlike their evil brethren they lack the infighting som more good drow are growing up good so to say. This applies to those on the surface of course and those roaming in nomadic bands in the underdark. They only have to fear monsters and a lot citizens on the surface,but besides that nothing
else  . While evil drow have all of the above, plus their on kin.
The drow are a very prolific race and as such the amount of dark elves born is higher than that of dark elves slain by their own kin. This applies only too the evil drow. As the good drow lack this infighting their numbers increase astronomicaly, if you go by percentage. Of course there are some factors that are important to include but it is still the truth. There is still far more drow born in their evil society than their good. But just wait. This partially applies to Vhaerunite drow too...
P.S even the source books imply that it is their society that it is evil...end of rambling. By the way Artalis, tells us more about your campaign |
Edited by - Prince Indirian on 29 May 2004 15:36:38 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2004 : 16:52:22
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| A wise post Prince Indirian. Welcome to the forums and nice to see you again. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2004 : 18:41:11
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| Do any of you think that there is a possibility of the drow becoming a good race? Like Prince Indirian said, the number of them are increasing, especially after Drizzt Do'Urden's escapades. Also, I don't believe that Lolth's silence was a concidence or just "another event". I think that it is WotC's way of maybe changing the drow race in both D&D and FR. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36802 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2004 : 19:05:40
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Do any of you think that there is a possibility of the drow becoming a good race? Like Prince Indirian said, the number of them are increasing, especially after Drizzt Do'Urden's escapades. Also, I don't believe that Lolth's silence was a concidence or just "another event". I think that it is WotC's way of maybe changing the drow race in both D&D and FR.
Gods above, I hope not. That kinda move would tweak off a lot of people, myself included.
I doubt that the Wizards would try that one. After all, if Lolth never returns, there's nothing to stop other evil deities from stepping into her place... And I don't see an entire race turning their backs on millenia of stabbing each other (and anyone else) in the back to go dance in the sunlight. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Senbar Flay
Learned Scribe
185 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2004 : 20:41:29
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| I think the good amount of dorw will increase because they will not backstabb eachother as much. but I doubt the whole race would turn good but perhaps many factions of them could return to the surface and possibly divide the race making other races see their is bothe good and evil drow. |
Imagination is more important than knowledge for knowledge is limited imagination encircles the world.- Albert Einstein |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2004 : 20:45:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I doubt that the Wizards would try that one. After all, if Lolth never returns, there's nothing to stop other evil deities from stepping into her place... And I don't see an entire race turning their backs on millenia of stabbing each other (and anyone else) in the back to go dance in the sunlight.
Neither do I. If I was running things, and Lolth went bye bye, well that would certainly open up the door for Vhaeraun and Eilistraee followers to increase with perhaps a war erupting between these two factions throughout the Underdark and the surface of Faerun.
As Jerry Springer has shown us time and time again, ain't no good fighting unless it includes family fighting. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36802 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2004 : 21:22:24
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| Not only those two -- Selvetarm and Kiaransalee would likely try to increase their influence. Ghaunadaur would likely try as well, and Shar already has a toehold in the Underdark (as Ibrandul), so she'd definitely try to steal as many of Lolth's followers as possible. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2004 : 23:17:09
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| I agree with the rest of you. If Lolth does fall, then her powers would likely be divided by the rest of the drow pantheon. I could also see an increase of drows living in the surface if the churches of Vhaerun and Eilistraee increase in power, since these two gods have always wanted to return to the surface. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2004 : 11:45:10
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I avidly defend good drow against people who moan about how we're all 'Drizzt-clones' and who tell us 'ur r b31ng l1R13L', but I do believe in them being rare.
Otherwise, what little mystery drow retain, is lost. And, for me, never quite knowing what goes on in even my own characters' head, is what makes drow so exciting.
I've heard a lot of people say they want Lolth to die at the end of WotSQ, and it really puzzles me. I'm pretty resistant to big change in the Realms in general, but the destruction of 'what makes an entire race cool' would just be stupid, in my opinion. Drow are meant to be shadows that rise from the earth to slay innocents, who dwell in spider-infested cities of obsidian, who perform acts of treachery daily, and who risk being tranformed into spider-drow-horrors - all of that would not be the same if Lolth went. |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2004 : 14:35:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarelle
I've heard a lot of people say they want Lolth to die at the end of WotSQ, and it really puzzles me. I'm pretty resistant to big change in the Realms in general, but the destruction of 'what makes an entire race cool' would just be stupid, in my opinion. Drow are meant to be shadows that rise from the earth to slay innocents, who dwell in spider-infested cities of obsidian, who perform acts of treachery daily, and who risk being tranformed into spider-drow-horrors - all of that would not be the same if Lolth went.
I couldn't disagree more. I think the only thing lost would be the spider connection. Drow under many other deities can be just as mysterious, deadly, treacherous, etc. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2004 : 18:56:50
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Sarelle, I agree with you. Like you said, people are complaining about "Drizzt-clones" but truth be known, most of the "good" drows tend to be more neutral than good. If you look at Eilistraee's church, the most of her followers were once Lolthites and they still possess some of that ruthlessness and cruelty.
For example, I read an excerpt in the Seven Sisters manual about Qilue. A human adventurerer discovered a holy site of Eilistraee where the followers were dancing. The human, ignorant of Eilistraee and thinks all drows are evil, attacks them. The attack failed and the followers of Eilistraee captures him. They wanted to kill him to keep their site a secret but Qilue did not intervene and let him go. If she didn't do that, they probably murdered him and dumped his corspe somewhere. This shows that even "good drows" aren't exactly "good". Lol. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Prince Indirian
Acolyte
Sweden
14 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2004 : 21:26:04
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Sarelle, I couldn't disagree more than Sirius. Lloth may have been the downfall of the dark elves (Illithyr), but as seen in WOTSQ series the drow are managing fine without her. Her society and the nasty invironment that is the underdark, has done enough to keep the daek elves evil for some time. As mentioned by Sirius they can still be evil,under the guidance of another evil deity. Vhaerunites are evil but they aim that "evilness"/wickedness against non-elves.
By the way you don't happen to hang out at the kiwidocs site Myth Drannor ? |
Edited by - Prince Indirian on 30 May 2004 21:38:22 |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2004 : 01:18:55
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| Managing fine? Lol. Practically every drow city is in chaos and fighting between the different churches. Menzoberranzan is undersiege by their enemies from the Underdark (duegars, illithids, tannarukks, etc). Ched Nasad is destroyed and of 30000 drows, only several hundred is left. Does this sound like the drows are managing their affairs well? |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2004 : 04:07:50
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Managing fine? Lol. Practically every drow city is in chaos and fighting between the different churches. Menzoberranzan is undersiege by their enemies from the Underdark (duegars, illithids, tannarukks, etc). Ched Nasad is destroyed and of 30000 drows, only several hundred is left. Does this sound like the drows are managing their affairs well?
I think what Prince Indirian meant to suggest was that the drow are just as evil as they were before Lolth went silent, perhaps even more so now. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2004 : 06:16:00
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| Becoming more evil? I actually don't think so because this whole "extermination" of Lolthites has turned the drows to a point where they are desperate enough to forge alliances with enemies and trust each other. But this is really just my opinion so... |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Drow Redemption
